Run a Large or Small plate?

[Djstorm100]

I've finally found a mayflower APC in stock and looking to get it but not sure if I should get the large or small plates. I'm a small frame guy and would think small would work (not 100% sure) I do know (from the stickies) I need to have both nipples covered, top of sternum to navel covered. Going with Level 3/4 ceramics.

I do know it is not going to be comfortable at first, or at all. Maybe after wearing it for a while and training/instructing it will be good to go.

outside of nipple to outside of nipple is 9 or 9.25 inches.

[TactTeam]

10"x12" is pretty universal. Different brands trim a little different. Some are right at 10x12 and some are a touch smaller.

[Djstorm100]

10"x12" is pretty universal. Different brands trim a little different. Some are right at 10x12 and some are a touch smaller.

Is 10x12" consider large?

[TactTeam]

I think most consider it large.

[Djstorm100]

I think most consider it large.

Reason I ask is on mayflower site and info I've seen

"The APC is available in two sizes; Small/Medium and Large/XLarge. The plate pockets are sized to accommodate stand alone or in-conjunction with BALCs/ESAPI or Swimmer cut plates. The S/M APC will fit small, medium and 10”x12” sized plates. The L/XL APC will fit large and extra-large plates."

saids S/M fits 10"x12" plates but the l/xl fits large/extra large. Left me thinking a large is bigger than 10"x12"

[TactTeam]

Reason I ask is on mayflower site and info I've seen

"The APC is available in two sizes; Small/Medium and Large/XLarge. The plate pockets are sized to accommodate stand alone or in-conjunction with BALCs/ESAPI or Swimmer cut plates. The S/M APC will fit small, medium and 10”x12” sized plates. The L/XL APC will fit large and extra-large plates."

saids S/M fits 10"x12" plates but the l/xl fits large/extra large. Left me thinking a large is bigger than 10"x12"

Not sure off hand. I have a direct line to find out about mayflower but I'm in a training class right now. I could get you an answer later tonight or in the AM.

[Djstorm100]

Not sure off hand. I have a direct line to find out about mayflower but I'm in a training class right now. I could get you an answer later tonight or in the AM.

Thanks, Going to go try on them on at lunch.

[Ledanek]

I'm smalllish: 34" chest size 17" collar 32" in reach 5'7" height
I have a 10x12 curve Velocity rifle place IV and there is rubbing when I bring my arms across, lets say right hand reaching over to left side, vice versa.

I feel more secure or covered with this size as per sticky thread (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=85112)

[msap]

The mayflower sizes coincide with sapi/esapi cut plates. I know for a
fact that the S/M plate pocket for the APC fits 10x12
plates.

[EzGoingKev]

Plate sizing per wiki -

Extra Small - 1.27 kg (2.8 lb) | 184 x 292 mm (7¼ x 11½ in)
Small - 1.59 kg (3.5 lb) | 222 x 298 mm (8¾ x 11¾ in)
Medium - 1.82 kg (4.0 lb) | 241 x 318 mm (9½ x 12½ in)
Large - 2.09 kg (4.6 lb) | 260 x 337 mm (10⅛ x 13¼ in)
Extra Large 2.40 kg (5.3 lb) | 280 x 356 mm (11 x 14 in)

I have a Mayflower APC in SM/MED with a 10x12 stand alone multi-hit plate in it with no backer (I am currently out of work so the backers got put on hold).

Based on the dimensions I listed above I am 99.9% positive I could fit a size large plate in there without backers. I am not sure you could fit a thick size large plate in there with a backer.

[Djstorm100]

Where is the best place to get ceremanic plates at (want to use these for weight saving) and how do you know if it will take multi hits?

[JSantoro]

My APC is a SM/Med, and it contains Lg USGI ESAPIs with Lg Velocity Systems kevlar backers. Those plates are stupid-thick, so it's tight, but they'll fit.

Check out SKD Tactical, Traid Tactical, Grey Group for plate variants. There are other vendors besides those three, of course.

Food for thought regarding the phrase "multi-hit"; this is from a Q/A portion on SKD's website (emphasis mine):


Hi, is this rated for multiple hits?

As far as NIJ is concerned, there is no such rating for "Multiple-Hits" although they are working on creating a standard for the future. Multiple-Hits is a term used by manufacturers to indicate that a given plate has withstood more than one strike, but there is no standard for how many rounds or where the shots are placed. Both of these plates are capable of withstanding Multiple-Hits, but we do not have any test data for how many of which rounds they would stop. Both are excellent plates and will work well with backers, although the backer isn't necessary for the Level IV plate to stop M2 .30-06 AP.

Point being, you should query any given plate's manufacturer as to what THEY mean by "multi-hit."

You know your measurements, so you know what plate size you need to cover that. That's your baseline, your minimum size. If you can get a larger plate, and therefore more coverage, without impeding your mobility, go for it. In some cases, the next size up of a swimmer's-cut plate can get you more actual coverage without binding your arms the way the next size up of a traditional cut plate might. This is difficult to judge without being able to physically experiment...

[Vendetta]

My APC is a SM/Med, and it contains Lg USGI ESAPIs with Lg Velocity Systems kevlar backers. Those plates are stupid-thick, so it's tight, but they'll fit.


I'm running this same setup and find it fits me perfectly. I'm 5'10, 190 and it rides perfectly with my duty belt.

[EzGoingKev]

My APC is a SM/Med, and it contains Lg USGI ESAPIs with Lg Velocity Systems kevlar backers. Those plates are stupid-thick, so it's tight, but they'll fit.

That is good to know. Once I get back to work I am going to go to this set up and sell my 10x12 plates.

[Djstorm100]

How does this carrier for? It's small/med and seems low in the back even though the shoulder straps are taken up. In one picture I'm pointing to the start of my sternum/ soft spot. I have no plates in there yet, I assume once I put plates in there it will take up material/area and the back will be position correctly? Should I go with a large?

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/19/a9umy8uh.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/19/ha5y3uhu.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/19/ve8ezyry.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/19/u4uzu4at.jpg


Sent from from your Sister's bedroom.

[TahoeLT]

Plates are definitely going to change the way it rides--some styles more than others. Triple-curve vs. SAPI vs. ESAPI vs. Swimmer cut vs. square cut...each will fill the plate pockets differently and make the carrier conform differently. Until you put plates in, it's tough to say how it's going to ride.

[Jellybean]

How does this carrier for? It's small/med and seems low in the back even though the shoulder straps are taken up. In one picture I'm pointing to the start of my sternum/ soft spot. I have no plates in there yet, I assume once I put plates in there it will take up material/area and the back will be position correctly? Should I go with a large?


*EDIT* Tahoe beat me to it. Some extra idea info;

I'm no expert, but that looks like a pretty good fit to me...
I think it was in with the amor thread here, but I believe the "ok" spot for the rear plate was 2 vertebrae below the big bumpy one you can feel sticking out if you bend your neck forward. I think... don't quote me on that.

As far as that material at your throat... I have a bone to pick with the APC there. Your plates, depending on what you use, may not fill the carrier completely to the top, and you will be left With about 1/2 to1 inch of space at the top.
For example, my VS Level3 ICW plates are a standard cut, and the upper corners push up against the carrier just below where the middle of the corners are on the APC, so I am left with space up top. However, I believe if you were to run Swimmer/shooter cut plates, this would not be an issue as their steeper/narrower cut would enable them to run completely to the top of the corner.
You may also have a slight issue if you plan to run plates with soft backers. The VS soft backers I got are sized for my 10x12 plates- but apparently they sized them according to the front, not the back- everyone know you have to make something fitting in a concave space smaller than the outer (front) curve. So they stick out about 1/2 inch beyond the bottom of the plate.
This would not be a big deal if the APC had a seperate pocket for soft armor, but as I'm sure you've noticed, there's only one internal pocket, and one adjustment strap. This leads to the plate sliding down the front of the backer about 1/2 inch no matter how tight you make the strap. Now maybe a "small" backer might work better? I have no clue as I don't have one to try, but if using this carrier some sort of standalone plate may be a good idea.
(yes, I know the VS L3 plate can be used in standalone modem, but I want my backers dammit!)

[Djstorm100]

Thanks for the wealth of info guys this is my first carrier. Have no experience since I was a nogo military ( diabetic type 1, you'll see my infusion sight on my right side of my stomach for my pump). This kit is for rso/ training / shtf.

Velocity seems to be the go to for plates.


Sent from from your Sister's bedroom.

[Ledanek]

http://i.imgur.com/RYS3tDxl.jpg
once I had the Velocity III and IV (http://www.skdtac.com/Velocity-Systems-Plate-LEVEL-III-IV-ICW-p/amr.108.htm) + kevlar soft (http://www.skdtac.com/Velocity-Systems-Soft-Armor-Plate-Backers-p/amr.100.htm), it definitely pulls it down. You gotta play with the straps. Mine is cinched as much as possible.

update: made corrections and links to items

[Djstorm100]

http://i.imgur.com/RYS3tDxl.jpg
once I had the Velocity IV + kevlar soft, it definitely pulls it down. You gotta play with the straps. Mine is cinched as much as possible.

Thanks for the picture!


Sent from from your Sister's bedroom.

[trackmagic]

What pc is that ledanek? I like it. It looks nice and simple.


http://i.imgur.com/RYS3tDxl.jpg
once I had the Velocity III and IV (http://www.skdtac.com/Velocity-Systems-Plate-LEVEL-III-IV-ICW-p/amr.108.htm) + kevlar soft (http://www.skdtac.com/Velocity-Systems-Soft-Armor-Plate-Backers-p/amr.100.htm), it definitely pulls it down. You gotta play with the straps. Mine is cinched as much as possible.

update: made corrections and links to items

[Ledanek]

What pc is that ledanek? I like it. It looks nice and simple.

TAG Banshee...follow this modification thread also (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=136275) and about using D3CR with the Banshee (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=129613&page=5)

[Jim D]

My APC is a SM/Med, and it contains Lg USGI ESAPIs with Lg Velocity Systems kevlar backers. Those plates are stupid-thick, so it's tight, but they'll fit.

Check out SKD Tactical, Traid Tactical, Grey Group for plate variants. There are other vendors besides those three, of course.

Food for thought regarding the phrase "multi-hit"; this is from a Q/A portion on SKD's website (emphasis mine):



Point being, you should query any given plate's manufacturer as to what THEY mean by "multi-hit."

You know your measurements, so you know what plate size you need to cover that. That's your baseline, your minimum size. If you can get a larger plate, and therefore more coverage, without impeding your mobility, go for it. In some cases, the next size up of a swimmer's-cut plate can get you more actual coverage without binding your arms the way the next size up of a traditional cut plate might. This is difficult to judge without being able to physically experiment...

Actually, a level III plate is pretty much "multi-hit" certified in testing:
http://nist.gov/oles/upload/ballistic.pdf

page 12:
4.1.2.1
Type III
For hard armors and insert plates intended to
provide Type III protection, the compliance
test group shall consist of nine armor panels. Th
e armor panels shall be sufficiently large to
allow for a minimum of six shots per panel. Th
ese requirements are outlined in figure 5. Four
armor panels will be used for the P-BFS testing described in section
7
. A minimum of four armor
panels will be subjected to the
BL test described in section
7
, with a minimum of 24 shots. The
remaining armor panel is a spar
e and be used if necessary.

Level III plates are certified with multiple hits on each plate in testing. A level IV plate only takes one hit per plate in testing.

This is one of the reasons why III/IV ICW plates can be attractive... you know they passed both testing protocols.

I've shot a level III plate myself with XM193 from a 16" bbl at 50 yards and that plate soaked up both 5.56mm and .308 lead core ammo before it let anything through it (after about 26 rounds). That was a Point Blank Level III plate (pressed HDPE, model 10260)http://pointblankenterprises.com/paraclete/?product=hard-armor-plates-model-10260-nij-06-level-iii-stand-alone-plate

SA III plates won't stop M855 or M2 .30-06 AP ammo, but SA III++ plates will stop M855 (green tip).
http://www.armorexpress.com/aries-iii-sa/
SA III++ plates are some of the most expensive on the market now for LE, but make more sense for domestic use than III or IV plates.

SA IV plates are dropping rapidly in price now. For example here is a NIJ.05 certified SA IV shooters cut plate for sub $150/ plate:
http://www.officerstore.com/store/product.aspx/productId/20186/Armor-Express-Level-IV-Single-Curve-Stand-Alone-Plate/

You never used to be able to find new, NIJ certified plates for <$300/set.

[ejb3]

Please bear in mind on the Mayflower APC that when they say that 10X12 plates will fit, they mean 10X12 shhoter's cut plates and not the square ones. I was at Velocity last week and picked one up, told that 10X12 fit-I got a S/M. Upon bringing it to work, the back square cut 10X12 would not fit. I heard back from Russell at Velocity and he did say that a 10x12 square will only fit on a Large APC.