View Full Version : Should blind people be allowed to carry concealed?
F-Trooper05
09-18-13, 02:51
Just saw a story on CNN where a blind guy was learning how to shoot so he could get his CCW, which I thought raised an interesting question. If you found yourself in the middle of the food court at your local mall where an active shooter suddenly started shooting people, would you feel more safe, or less safe knowing that the only person capable of shooting back was physically incapable of acquiring a sight picture?
Will said person be heading to the DMV to acquire a drivers license afterwards?
Are we talking about someone who is legally blind or fully blind? It is an important distinction.
Yeah, what kwelz said. My Mom is legally blind if she doesn't wear contacts or glasses. When she does, she has roughly 20/20 vision of course.
F-Trooper05
09-18-13, 10:43
Are we talking about someone who is legally blind or fully blind? It is an important distinction.
Blind like these guys...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWtEF65czq0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s2Ppe_oFTA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFNce0X_8AA
Eurodriver
09-18-13, 10:57
American citizens of sound mind.
Of course they do.
I'd hope a blind guy wouldn't start shooting into the sound of gunfire during an active shooter, but there are a lot of guys with 20/20 vision I wouldn't want doing that either.
Who are we to say they must submit to the will of a mugger because they can't see? Talk about being punished twice.
Sure why not, what's the worst that could happen?
But really, yes they should have equal rights. They should also understand there is no free pass when they make a mistake and shoot the wrong person, or destroy property, or mistake a situation for something that its not and draw their gun in public unnecessarily. Equal rights will need to come with equal responsibility. Also to include qualifying with a pistol just like everyone else has to (if your state requires it).
By the way, if you're in a store and a blind person whips out a gun to "save the day", FOR GOD'S SAKE GET DOWN.
montanadave
09-18-13, 11:17
Let's see. Those pesky "Four Rules."
And how many of them can a blind person effectively adhere to?
One out of three doesn't seem to bode well for either private or public safety.
This is just donkeyism.
Why limit the context of the poll response to whether or not the voter feels more or less safe? How about just a "yes" or "no", that allows encompassing all potential issues?
Gutshot John
09-18-13, 11:34
I'm somewhat torn on this. I understand the obvious problems but while those are challenges, I do think they can be overcome with training. Their condition should NOT be an excuse to get away with a mistake.
You're talking about someone who is already physically vulnerable to an aggressive criminal, and the appearance of such vulnerability only serves to make them a greater target. Factor in older people who suffer from things like cataracts or macular degeneration, and I'm uncomfortable with making them targets.
Ultimately I'm not uncomfortable with blind/legally blind owning a firearm for protection, but that there should be a standard as to how that weapon is employed and that manner should be practiced and practiced and practiced.
eightmillimeter
09-18-13, 11:35
Why limit the context of the poll response to whether or not the voter feels more or less safe? How about just a "yes" or "no", that allows encompassing all potential issues?
Agree, this poll is worded terribly. There is a big ruckus about this in IA right now. Blind or not, your average female knows if she is being assaulted and where to point the gun. Trying to deny gun permits based on uncorrected or [blind] vision is an ADA nightmare, and rightly so.
Based on your scenario of the blind person being the only one able to shoot back...... and considering the time element.. I would be more safe.
He will draw fire... this allows time to escape. Also after he is shot, the potential exists to collect his weapon for use.
You won't be less safe..... generally being blind doesn't mean the rest of your brain stops working. I doubt he would just randomly start slinging lead blindly( ha ).
JBecker 72
09-18-13, 11:48
Hell no, if you're in fact blind you shouldn't be able to carry a firearm for defensive purposes or drive a car. The risk to the public is too great. Yeah it sucks but it is what it is.
I realize there are legally blind drivers and I don't want them on the roads either. It's bad enough we have to deal with distracted drivers, but sight impaired drivers is just crazy.
Are we talking about someone who is legally blind or fully blind? It is an important distinction.
Yeah, we need more details.
A good friend of mine is legally blind (only sees shades of light) in one eye & has very poor vision in the other, however, he does wear a contact in his "good" eye. Not only is he one hell of a good shot, he's a very successful motorcycle roadracer & former AMA champion.
So, Helen Keller blind? No. "Blind" yet still able to successfully ID a target? Sure.
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Hell no, if you're in fact blind you shouldn't be able to carry a firearm for defensive purposes or drive a car. The risk to the public is too great. Yeah it sucks but it is what it is.
I realize there are legally blind drivers and I don't want them on the roads either. It's bad enough we have to deal with distracted drivers, but sight impaired drivers is just crazy.
You could not have stated it better!
crusader377
09-18-13, 14:12
As long as they can meet the same qualifications (including range qualifications and target identification without being coached) as normal CCW holders I have no problem with it.
F-Trooper05
09-18-13, 14:48
Why limit the context of the poll response to whether or not the voter feels more or less safe? How about just a "yes" or "no", that allows encompassing all potential issues?
I agree it's poorly worded. Feel free to edit it to 'yes' or 'no' if you'd like.
montanadave
09-18-13, 15:07
As long as they can meet the same qualifications (including range qualifications and target identification without being coached) as normal CCW holders I have no problem with it.
These may be the requirements for a CCW permit in your location, but around this neck of the woods the only requirement is a clean background check and documentation of attending a lecture-only class (no firearms, no shooting).
And I can assure you there would be all kinds of opposition against any attempt to toughen these minimal elgibility criteria.
Alaskapopo
09-18-13, 15:13
Just saw a story on CNN where a blind guy was learning how to shoot so he could get his CCW, which I thought raised an interesting question. If you found yourself in the middle of the food court at your local mall where an active shooter suddenly started shooting people, would you feel more safe, or less safe knowing that the only person capable of shooting back was physically incapable of acquiring a sight picture?
I would say no to blind people carrying a projectile weapon of any kind. Stick to pepper spray and tasers.
Pat
Since when does a disability (excluding mental health reasons) justify a curtailment of ones civil liberties? If anything considering the accommodations legally mandated to be provided to disabled persons they should damn near get their own armed bodyguard to ccw for them lol
Alaskapopo
09-18-13, 15:17
Since when does a disability (excluding mental health reasons) justify a curtailment of ones civil liberties? If anything considering the accommodations legally mandated to be provided to disabled persons they should damn near get their own armed bodyguard to ccw for them lol
Easy when ones can not safely exercise those said civil liberties without literally endangering everyone one around him and their civil liberties. Your freedom to swing your fist stop short of my nose. A blind man who can not identify the target should not be carrying a gun.
Pat
I just watched the videos. That's just crazy. **** no, they shouldn't be able to get a permit.
I did find it odd that the one blind guy was wearing eye pro. Seriously, WTF? :confused:
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You should do a google search on blind people defending their lives with guns. Happens more often than you might think.
With peoples attitude that we can restrict peoples rights when people may not feel "safe"- you all should just rename the bill of rights to:
"The bill of permissions we might grant if we feel safe about allowing you to practice said permissions".
Because that is what we have allowed the Bill of Rights to become.
Then when someone decides to not allow certain groups of people to practice their "permissions" no one can get upset about it as they are not really your rights...
Just don't be pissed when they decide YOU cannot practice your "permissions" when they feel you aren't "safe" enough to do so.
Good times will be had by all. :rolleyes:
Who needs rights when we have a government and police officers to keep us "safe". Shit who needs freedom either, that shit is unsafe!
Rights seem to be a thing of the past now-a-days even with so called enthusiasts and activists. Incredibly sad and disheartening. :bad:
Easy when ones can not safely exercise those said civil liberties without literally endangering everyone one around him and their civil liberties. Your freedom to swing your fist stop short of my nose. A blind man who can not identify the target should not be carrying a gun.
Pat
If you were blinded in a shoot out would just holster the gun and sit there?
Or do you think perhaps some of your other senses might be of use and you could return fire still?
If you made it out alive but permanently blind would you go on with the rest of your life without a gun to protect yourself- willingly and happily?
Just curious.
I can't see (pun intended) how a blind person wielding a firearm could be harmful for anyone not standing behind them...
Jesus H. Christ, WTF is wrong with people? Do these nuts want firearms to be outlawed???? If so, they're doing a great job...
A taser/stun gun or pepper spray would probably be a fine method of SD for a completely blind person. If they absolutely can't see their target or what is beyond, they shouldn't be firing a weapon in self defense.
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Alaskapopo
09-18-13, 16:24
If you were blinded in a shoot out would just holster the gun and sit there?
Or do you think perhaps some of your other senses might be of use and you could return fire still?
If you made it out alive but permanently blind would you go on with the rest of your life without a gun to protect yourself- willingly and happily?
Just curious.
If I could not see I would not be able to be sure of my target unless I could push the gun into his body I would not shoot.
Pat
If I could not see I would not be able to be sure of my target unless I could push the gun into his body I would not shoot.
Pat
Fair enough.
If you were in a situation where you were blind, but knew you could safely engage the target without knowing 100% where the target was, but having a hightened sense of hearing that could make you confident in engaging- would you?
I believe that a reasonable blind person could make the decision on when to shoot and when not to shoot.
I doubt very much a blind person CC'ing would open fire in a crowd of people to engage a threat they only heard- but let's set up another scenario:
If they were alone at night with little to no one around and a person decided to murder or rob them- they could potentially defend their lives without putting innocents in danger- should they not be afforded that right to self defense?
I'm not advocating "shoot first and think later" whilst CC'ing by blind people, just that they should be afforded the right to carry a gun and defend themselves.
They should ALSO be responsible and know when to and when not to shoot like the rest of us and be held accountable for their actions.
Is it so unreasonable that a blind person would know how many people are around by his sense of hearing, or the ones with "radar" like senses?
And is it so unreasonsable to believe they could make the right choices and not put others at risk, but still carry a gun and defend themselves in SOME situations- whilst knowing to not draw and just get away in other situations?
I live in a neighboorhood that has a school for the blind and I can tell you I have seen first hand some pretty awesome stuff the blind are capable of.
I just don't think blind + carrying a gun automatically = someone who would just start shooting in any situation wihtout assessing the situation and making a good decision to engage or not.
Blind or not we all have the right to defend ourselves how WE see fit in my eyes. YMMV.
Too many possible circumstances to rue upon. But to make blind persons and effective "gun free (victim here) zone" is unconscionable.
Not everyone blind victim can hope for a single aggressor and be physically capable of: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/the-wrong-victim-mugger-targets-blind-judo-champion-a-504854.html
Reasonable use could include:
-contact shots at aggressor/s
-home intruder/s through closed, internal, door
There is zero possible way a completely blind person can be sure of their target and what is beyond it. Once that bullet leaves the barrel, you're liable for EVERYTHING it destroys, and personally I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a blind person that draws a CCW to defend themselves.
Nobody in their right mind would suggest someone close their eyes before pulling the trigger.
I don't think anyone is saying they don't have a right to defend themselves. There are other methods, though, that significantly decrease the chances of an innocent bystander being injured or killed.
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There is zero possible way a completely blind person can be sure of their target and what is beyond it. Once that bullet leaves the barrel, you're liable for EVERYTHING it destroys, and personally I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a blind person that draws a CCW to defend themselves.
Nobody in their right mind would suggest someone close their eyes before pulling the trigger.
I completely understand and agree with what you're saying.
I just think there could be some (Very, very few) circumstances when a blind person armed with a gun could save their own life and not put others in harms way (A google search backs this up as there are plenty of articles with blind people defending their lives with guns). I agree that 99.99% of the time it wouldn't make sense for them to draw their gun and shoot (And I would imagine the blind who carry or would like to carry are well aware of that fact and would act accordingly), but it is possible for the right situation to arise when it could save their lives to do so and not put innocents in harms way.
The likelyhood is rather small indeed, but so is the likely hood that most of us will ever find ourselves in a situation where we will need to be armed. I still carry everyday, everywhere just in case.
I'm not ready to remove these peoples RKBA if they are responsible and would take the time to to get firearms education- knowing when and when not to shoot.
I don't think anyone is saying they don't have a right to defend themselves. There are other methods, though, that significantly decrease the chances of an innocent bystander being injured or killed.
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I agree and understand what you are saying, but that is a common argument posed by the anti-gun crowd on why Concealed carry of guns should not be legal.
"Get pepper spray or a knife" they say; "guns are too dangerous in the hands of anyone other than cops & soldiers" they say...
The chances any of us are going to need to use our guns in defense of our lives is SMALL, but that doesn't stop us from doing so.
I don't see why a blind person shouldn't have the same choice, and be able to decide when they can and cannot draw and shoot safely.
Don't all of you that carry realize there are situations you absolutely SHOULD draw the gun and others when you ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT?
Not very different from a blind person other than the fact that they have MUCH fewer situations when they should and could safely do so.
I don't see why a blind person shouldn't have the same choice, and be able to decide when they can and cannot draw and shoot safely.
Don't all of you that carry realize there are situations you absolutely SHOULD draw the gun and others when you ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT?
Not very different from a blind person other than the fact that they have MUCH fewer situations when they should and could safely do so.
There's the issue. Blind people can't be 100% certain that it is safe to pull the trigger.
We're all on the same team here, really... we are. None of us want our rights taken away, but a line has to be drawn. Sometimes life isn't fair. I know, it sounds terrible. Some things you just need eyesight for. Blind people were dealt a hard card. If it were me, I'd love the chance to ring steel at a range, however, I'd never even entertain the notion of carrying a concealed gun for SD.
Honestly, and don't take offense, I can't believe this is even being debated.
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I wouldn't want to be next to anyone besides myself or others of similar background, using a firearm in a violent encounter, however my discomfort doesn't justify disarming others.
Having been bound, blinded and fought... w & w/o firearms, it works. Anyone semi competent in combatives can tell exactly what part of an opponents body is pressed against them.
I would wager that near 100% of contact shots hit the intended recipient.. much MUCH higher than the hit% of law enforcement shootings. Add a safety or frange rd to mitigate pass through.
Screw it, I say let blind folks drive, fly airplanes, conduct surgery's, serve in the military, captain ships, ect.
Why the hell not.......
Better yet why don't quadriplegic's carry, its their right too..
Look, you people that are hell bent on taking every thing gun related to the extreme are going to be the ultimate demise of the 2nd amendment.
GeorgiaBoy
09-18-13, 20:12
I don't see why a blind person shouldn't have the same choice, and be able to decide when they can and cannot draw and shoot safely.
How do they know they can shoot safely?
They might have the weapon pushed up against the body of an assailant but how do they know who is on the other side if the round went through? These are key things.
For example, I could memorize a track of road so well that I could drive it blind folded. I know exactly where each curve, hill, and straightaway is. But what happens when you throw a obstacle in that track that I didn't memorize was there when I was training? I hit it, obviously. Because I can't SEE that obstacle. I know the curve is there, but I don't what is on the other side.
The same applies here. You may know where your assailant is, but you simply don't know where anyone else that isn't in your immediate vicinity is.
There is zero possible way a completely blind person can be sure of their target and what is beyond it. Once that bullet leaves the barrel, you're liable for EVERYTHING it destroys, and personally I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a blind person that draws a CCW to defend themselves.
Nobody in their right mind would suggest someone close their eyes before pulling the trigger.
Come on.... zero possibility? Seriously?
A blind man is sitting on his front porch, listening to life go by. Some jackass decides to rob him. Forces him inside his home and asks him where any money is... as bad guy grabs him to show him he means business, the blind guy shoves the gun in his gut and fires. Game over.
If most SD shootings are within 3 to 4 feet... for blind people the gap would be likely be much less and probably contact. Who the hell is going to go around shooting blind people from 50 yards? They are going to find them alone and vulnerable.
Seems like a lot of people here think blind people are automatically stupid as well.
If you can't see a difference between being able to defend yourself and driving a car, something is wrong. Of course when you pull the trigger you are responsible for what happens. How could it be any other way.
My grandfather was blind and never shot anyone and I don't recall anyone ever being concerned about him having a gun.
Newsflash.... most blind people are not stupid.
How do they know they can shoot safely?
Blind people are not stupid!!
You are away on business. Your blind wife is home alone. She is in bed and there is a gun in the night stand.
Do you want to come home to a dead rapist and a bullet hole or two in the wall or a raped wife?
GeorgiaBoy
09-18-13, 22:00
Blind people are not stupid!!
You are away on business. Your blind wife is home alone. She is in bed and there is a gun in the night stand.
Do you want to come home to a dead rapist and a bullet hole or two in the wall or a raped wife?
This thread is about blind people CCWing in public, not what they do in their homes.
Bullet pass through would def. be one of my major concerns. Every shooter has to know the environment beyond his target, and make the judgment call to shoot. Give the blind a Taser and free roam to use it:jester: I say!!
I have an idea: Everyone get your force-on-force gear out, put the blindfold on, and get to work. Report back with your results. (You're going to be bit a surprised at what you're capable of.)
And another thought... Some CCW permits exempt the bearer from a NICS check, or serve as a standing permit to purchase that might otherwise be required locally. Holding a CCW may also exempt the bearer from certain other legal or educational requirements pertinent to firearms. Not to mention eligibility for preferential purchasing with some commercial vendors. In short, denial of a CCW may be more far-reaching than some think.
This thread is about blind people CCWing in public, not what they do in their homes.
Oh... ok... my bad.
I thought it was thread about the irrational fear of blind people based on a near impossible hypothetical scenario.
You know.... the sort of things Liberals say to justify taking your guns.
I see your point ... let's face it... a blind person can't calculate all the possible trajectories a TandT or ricochet off bone and backstop might take. Sighted CCW people always do that. We know that. :rolleyes:
I think there are a whole lot more blind CCWs out there than I have previously imagined prior to reading this thread. .... and then we have the visually impaired.
Eurodriver
09-19-13, 08:59
I can't believe what I'm reading on a pro-gun forum.
Apricotshot
09-19-13, 09:03
Having no idea what its like to live blind I can give no opinion either way on whether a bland person could responsibly CCW as I do not know their capabilities.
I honestly can not believe that people would think its ok for a BLIND person to carry a concealed firearm in public. (what you do in your own home is your business, but that's not the topic at hand)
It is asinine at best, and down right reckless at worst.
But that's ok, let the blind people carry concealed firearms on their person.....who gives a shit, I mean come on...the blind fellow in the video hit the target he was pointed at (good thing all bad guys/attackers stand still just like a target). Hell I say Felons should get CCW permits too.....at least they can SEE for God's sake...
An interesting experiment would be to load up these blind CCW'ers with sim-rounds and place them in to actual CCW usage scenarios and see how things play out...
Slow down a bit guys. Stop thinking about it one dimensionally or in terms of confrontational models you're familiar with.
I can't believe what I'm reading on a pro-gun forum.
"resistance is futile"
Dianne is smiling.
Eurodriver
09-19-13, 09:54
I honestly can not believe that people would think its ok for a BLIND person to carry a concealed firearm in public. (what you do in your own home is your business, but that's not the topic at hand)
It is asinine at best, and down right reckless at worst.
But that's ok, let the blind people carry concealed firearms on their person.....who gives a shit, I mean come on...the blind fellow in the video hit the target he was pointed at (good thing all bad guys/attackers stand still just like a target). Hell I say Felons should get CCW permits too.....at least they can SEE for God's sake...
An interesting experiment would be to load up these blind CCW'ers with sim-rounds and place them in to actual CCW usage scenarios and see how things play out...
Your disdain for blind people is disgusting. Why should a blind woman have to wait until you show up 15 minutes into her rape in order to defend herself?
One need not look any further than New York City's pride, NYPD to see that trained police officers with excellent vision shoot innocent bystanders. Is that one of those "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others." situations? Why can NYPD get away with it yet you don't want blind women carrying guns when there are zero reports of them shooting innocent bystanders. If you assaulted me and I was blind, I'm 100% certain I could defend myself with my handgun and make you several ounces heavier without having the ability to see and without shooting two bystanders.
Your logic is equivalent to saying that we should place all LEOs in simulations with sim rounds and deny them firearms if they make mistakes too. I'd be cool with that. You've got backup racing at 120 MPH to come save you. Blind women don't. You signed up knowing you might get murked. Blind women didn't.
An interesting experiment would be to load up these blind CCW'ers with sim-rounds and place them in to actual CCW usage scenarios and see how things play out...
Do you mind if I ask if you fall into the age group of about 38-44?
Playing devil's advocate, if I were blind and had someone on top of me beating me to death I would like to have a pistol in my pocket.
JBecker 72
09-19-13, 11:09
Just to be clear here, you guys who are pro blind CCW, we are talking completely blind, like Ray Charles blind. Would you want them driving a car? No. Would you want them operating heavy equipment? No. But somehow a firearm gets a pass.
I'm not for stripping rights from anyone, but there comes a time when you have to be realistic about what you can and can't do. And blind people can't see shit. Tell me again how many of you were taught sight picture isn't important?
Apricotshot
09-19-13, 11:36
Just to be clear here, you guys who are pro blind CCW, we are talking completely blind, like Ray Charles blind. Would you want them driving a car? No. Would you want them operating heavy equipment? No. But somehow a firearm gets a pass.
I'm not for stripping rights from anyone, but there comes a time when you have to be realistic about what you can and can't do. And blind people can't see shit. Tell me again how many of you were taught sight picture isn't important?
There is a thing called contact gunshots. And they happen all the time. Basically a blind person could use a handgun like a bangstick when an attacker is commiting an attack.
Obviously the head shot at 15 yards isn't going to happen here.
Gutshot John
09-19-13, 11:49
Just to be clear here, you guys who are pro blind CCW, we are talking completely blind, like Ray Charles blind. Would you want them driving a car? No. Would you want them operating heavy equipment? No. But somehow a firearm gets a pass.
False choice, like anything the devil is in the details but I wouldn't just put a gun into a blind person's hands and say "have at it."
Firearms aren't only used at distance.
Obviously they have to undergo training as to when and where they can use that firearm, and like everyone else they are responsible for every round they fire.
Even with two good eyes, I hear of people shooting innocent bystanders. Every shoothouse class I've been to, the cop always gets shot even with a badge plainly visible.
At least the blind KNOW they're blind.
With the proper training, clearly established rules, and regular practice, I see no problem with this, especially in their own home.
JBecker 72
09-19-13, 12:04
I definitely don't see a problem with a blind person defending their home or target shooting at a range. And yes, I know humans make mistakes all the time. I still don't think it's a good idea to let a person lacking sight loose on the streets with a CCW. As was said earlier in the thread, being born blind or blinded at some point in life is a tough deal. Unfortunately that disability is going to come with significant limitations.
Will said person be heading to the DMV to acquire a drivers license afterwards?
There's a constitutional right to drive?
Gutshot John
09-19-13, 12:15
Unfortunately that disability is going to come with significant limitations.
What difference does it make if it's in their home or other? Bullets go through walls, and through people. Blind or not a bullet never misses.
Never said otherwise, but as someone pointed out it doesn't require a lot of eyesight to make a contact shot...a blind CCW can certainly work within those limitations with the proper training.
Just like someone who may have another physical handicap. They have to figure out how to overcome them.
If the blind can go to and from work without someone holding their hand, I'm sure they can figure out when they can and can't use their firearm.
I definitely don't see a problem with a blind person defending their home or target shooting at a range. And yes, I know humans make mistakes all the time. I still don't think it's a good idea to let a person lacking sight loose on the streets with a CCW. As was said earlier in the thread, being born blind or blinded at some point in life is a tough deal. Unfortunately that disability is going to come with significant limitations.
I have (And others in this thread) elluded to the fact that there may be a circumstance where a blind person COULD effectively defend themselves with a gun without putting others in harms way. Mainly, extremely close up shots- body to body contact scenarios.
I think we all have an idea of what our limitations are and would be able to understand this in the heat fo the moment and act accordingly.
Why can't blind people be afforded the same rights and be trusted to limit themselves to teh VERY FEW scenarios where they could effectively defend there lives?
We have a saying here in Colorado on the mountains:
"Know your limit and ski within it"
It crosses over to all things in life.
I belive blind people can be trusted just as much as those of us with perfect or better sight to know when and when not to shoot. Blind people obviously not being able to shoot in MOST scenarios.
If I was blind, I would most certainly want to carry a gun in case a situation arose in which I needed it- and I would certainly be well aware of my limitations in employing the weapon.
I would know when and when not to shoot- the former being incredibly limited and the latter being 99.99% of situations.
It's as if some of you guys (Not directing this comment at anyone in aprticular) think that just because there a blind person has a gun on their persons they are going to shoot at anything anytime without knowing their limitations- is this how ALL CC'ers should be perceived as well?
At least the blind KNOW they're blind.
And that's why 99% of them probably won't be carrying a gun.
Let the 1% that wants to carry a gun have at it, and then 1% of them who get robbed can either draw and shoot, or not. If they shoot the mugger, great. If they shoot the wrong person or otherwise do something stupid with it, then they can go to jail just like anyone else. You can't fix stupid, your can't prevent shootings or violence, and fact of the matter is - if blind people want to carry then they'll find a way to do it. Lets just treat them like regular people, let them decide for themselves, and then when they screw up they can continue to be treated like everyone else.
You want equality? You got it.
Just to be clear here, you guys who are pro blind CCW, we are talking completely blind, like Ray Charles blind. Would you want them driving a car? No. Would you want them operating heavy equipment? No. But somehow a firearm gets a pass.
Yes, they could drive a car or heavy equipment under certain very extreme conditions and situations, much like their use of a firearm would likely entail. Like say me and a blind guy who happens to have a gun in his pocket are driving around. I get the truck stuck. I say ok, you get in the drivers seat. Just ease it forward as I try to get out there and wedge it out and push. After is comes free, just step on the brake. There is a cliff in front of you about 50 yards out... Can you do this? We only need to move it about 10 feet forward. Notice he's not afraid of running over the cliff and I'm not afraid of getting shot. It's kinda like real life :)
I'm not for stripping rights from anyone, but there comes a time when you have to be realistic about what you can and can't do. And blind people can't see shit. Tell me again how many of you were taught sight picture isn't important?
There are actually some really good , no sight picture videos on YT. What's even more bizarre is that the people can see.
You guys are trying to impose your limited scope scenarios that reflect a desired and predetermined outcome onto a person that lives a completely different life and would use the tool under a completely different circumstance.... a blind person would be dis-advantaged in use far beyond what a sighted person is, but they would not be 100% disadvantaged and under any given situation may actually make wiser decision than you. This doesn't mean they have some magic ability to shoot in the dark nor that they would suddenly suppose they do.
Create a realistic scenario for the blind person. Stop pretending as though being blind means you have the reasoning power of a two year old.
Liberal point: "This -could- happen" so we need to make a rule about it.
The reality is... you are in no more danger from a blind person having a gun in their pocket than you are anything else in life. If anything, blind people are probably inherently more cautious than sighted people.
JBecker 72
09-19-13, 12:43
Well guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
This is just another notch toward banning that the liberals can take. Pretty soon they will bring up the fact that people with children or folks working the 3rd shift or whatever have more stress and increased cortisol levels should warrant the loss of firearms for those people.
This is just more leftist jargon to "we want to disarm you".
Eurodriver
09-19-13, 12:52
I'm for keeping CCWs out of the hands of cancer patients too.
They might be too weak to pull the trigger, effectively handing a firearm to a criminal.
Add people suffering from Parkinson's to that list. Too shaky. No gun for you.
I can continue...
For me it depends on whether they are completely blind or just legally blind.
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JBecker 72
09-19-13, 13:44
And here come the ridiculous comparisons.
Coopers 4 rules of firearm safety:
RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
Rule III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
montanadave
09-19-13, 13:50
And here come the ridiculous comparisons.
Coopers 4 rules of firearm safety:
RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
Rule III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND BEYOND
But, hey, no worries. This is all about taking an absolutist stand and defying all common sense.
A really interesting question. As the statutes stand, if they can pass all qualifications, denying them the right would violate the ADA. So the answer has to be, if they can pass all qualifications, yes, it would be illegal to deny them.
Doesn't make it a good idea...
GeorgiaBoy
09-19-13, 14:19
I'm trying to find the Sonny Puzikas thread and see if any of the members holding absolutist stances on this issue were some of the ones calling out Puzikas for shooting "blind" on a closed-range shoot house.
Either way, if you can't see your sights, positively ID your target, know your surroundings, and know whats beyond your intended target, you shouldn't be discharging a firearm.
And that has nothing to do with blind people "being stupid".
And here come the ridiculous comparisons.
Coopers 4 rules of firearm safety:
RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
Rule III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
Pretty sure that at contact distance target ID isn't an issue. What's beyond may bean issue, but even people with 20/1vision won't know what's farther away but will pull the trigger anyway to stop the threat.
Would a blind guy who knows his limits and sticks to contact shits be more or less dangerous than a NYC cop?
Driving a car always requires distance vision. Defending your self doesn't so it's not really a fair comparison.
Do I think it's a good idea...it's definitely risky, but could be doable with say restrictions on how they can use it in public. Not sure how viable than may be though.
My biggest concern really wouldn't be that they shoot up a place as any dumbass can do that. It would be that they become gun donors when they get cold cocked by the guy they can't see coming. Those of us with all senses in working order are badly behind the curve as is, they would be off the charts in most cases.
Gutshot John
09-19-13, 16:36
If they shoot the wrong person or otherwise do something stupid with it, then they can go to jail just like anyone else. .
150% agreement.
I'm for keeping CCWs out of the hands of cancer patients too.
They might be too weak to pull the trigger, effectively handing a firearm to a criminal.
Add people suffering from Parkinson's to that list. Too shaky. No gun for you.
I can continue...
^This.
How about .mil vets & LEO with PTSD (Too dangerous, they could freak out- shouldn't carry guns)?
How about arthritis sufferers (They cannot control guns well enough to carry safely)?
How about anyone with an IQ below 130 (Not smart enough to carry a gun safely)?
How about people with diabetes (Decision fatigue- might get low blood sugar and make poor decision- shouldn't carry a gun)?
How about anyone over the age of say 75 (Too old to carry a gun)?
The list could go on and on...
You could articulate basically the same argument for denying these people their rights along with blind people.
How about down the road when we have more info on the human genome and can deny people their rights based off of genetic markers for all sorts of "potential" behavior/attributes?
This becomes a VERY slippery slope quickly!
Blind people are not stupid!!
You are away on business. Your blind wife is home alone. She is in bed and there is a gun in the night stand.
Do you want to come home to a dead rapist and a bullet hole or two in the wall or a raped wife?
Either way, if you can't see your sights, positively ID your target, know your surroundings, and know whats beyond your intended target, you shouldn't be discharging a firearm.
And that has nothing to do with blind people "being stupid".
Well, there you go.... that's some tough love. Thank you for finally answering my question.
GeorgiaBoy
09-19-13, 17:23
Well, there you go.... that's some tough love. Thank you for finally answering my question.
I've already answered previously that being in your house is a different circumstance but the post you quoted wasn't referring to your scenario.
By rereading the OP, it appears (at least to me) the question or scenario would be, a 100% blind person shooting an assailant at a distance. At least that's what they appear to be training for, so that is what I'm basing my opinion on. I'm sure we could come up with 100's of different scenarios where it might be safe for a blind person to shoot someone but that doesn't change the OP. It comes down to knowing your target & what is beyond.
Some vote Yea, some vote Nay. It's seems a little ridiculous to sit here & try to change the minds of the opposing individuals based off of fabricated scenarios.
This thread hit a new level of stupid when we started comparing blind people to cancer patients.
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How about .mil vets & LEO with PTSD (Too dangerous, they could freak out- shouldn't carry guns)?
How about arthritis sufferers (They cannot control guns well enough to carry safely)?
How about anyone with an IQ below 130 (Not smart enough to carry a gun safely)?
How about people with diabetes (Decision fatigue- might get low blood sugar and make poor decision- shouldn't carry a gun)?
How about anyone over the age of say 75 (Too old to carry a gun)?
The list could go on and on...
You could articulate basically the same argument for denying these people their rights along with blind people.
So, you're saying the police shouldn't carry guns? (http://reason.com/blog/2013/05/01/court-oks-barring-smart-people-from-beco)
I'm only kidding, everybody relax. And I agree with your post as well.
By rereading the OP, it appears (at least to me) the question or scenario would be, a 100% blind person shooting an assailant at a distance. At least that's what they appear to be training for, so that is what I'm basing my opinion on. I'm sure we could come up with 100's of different scenarios where it might be safe for a blind person to shoot someone but that doesn't change the OP. It comes down to knowing your target & what is beyond.
Some vote Yea, some vote Nay. It's seems a little ridiculous to sit here & try to change the minds of the opposing individuals based off of fabricated scenarios.
This thread hit a new level of stupid when we started comparing blind people to cancer patients.
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No one compared the blind to a cancer patient, only pointing out that a similar argument to denying the blind their rights could be articulated to deny the rights of other people for other reasons along the same lines.
The poll question is: "Should the blind be able to CCW"?
I realize the OP set up a specific scenario, but the question transcends this scenario- thus the need to articulate that there COULD be a VERY LIMITED set of circumstances where a blind person might safely defend their life with a gun, and they should be afforded that right if they choose to excercise it.
If they were in a situation where they were close up- body to body on the ground being pummeled and they could get a contact shot into the person beating them to death- should they not have the right to carry a gun to do so?
Blind people would definitely be much more limited in their use of a gun for SD (I don't think anyone is arguing any differently), but it doesn't mean that there is and never could be a time/scenario when they could justifiably and safely utilize a gun in SD without harm to innocents being likely.
Do you mind if I ask if you fall into the age group of about 38-44?
No I'm not.
Do you mind if I ask you if you're a troll just here to stir the pot????
You know what, on my next qual I'll close my eyes and see how it goes......:rolleyes: but i'll make sure to have someone point me in the right direction before I start.....gotta be realistic and all.....
Seriously, lets start handing out drivers licenses to the blind....why not??? Freedom of travel/movement is a right.
If they were in a situation where they were close up- body to body on the ground being pummeled and they could get a contact shot into the person beating them to death- should they not have the right to carry a gun to do so?
Blind people would definitely be much more limited in their use of a gun for SD (I don't think anyone is arguing any differently), but it doesn't mean that there is and never could be a time/scenario when they could justifiably and safely utilize a gun in SD without harm to innocents being likely.
ECQC in the FUT, abso****inlutely! .38 S&W hammerless in AIWB holster would work well.
Maybe we should outlaw knives for blind people too... Lord knows they'll only cut their fingers off or stab innocent people walking by.
No one compared the blind to a cancer patient, only pointing out that a similar argument to denying the blind their rights could be articulated to deny the rights of other people for other reasons along the same lines.
The poll question is: "Should the blind be able to CCW"?
I realize the OP set up a specific scenario, but the question transcends this scenario- thus the need to articulate that there COULD be a VERY LIMITED set of circumstances where a blind person might safely defend their life with a gun, and they should be afforded that right if they choose to excercise it.
If they were in a situation where they were close up- body to body on the ground being pummeled and they could get a contact shot into the person beating them to death- should they not have the right to carry a gun to do so?
Blind people would definitely be much more limited in their use of a gun for SD (I don't think anyone is arguing any differently), but it doesn't mean that there is and never could be a time/scenario when they could justifiably and safely utilize a gun in SD without harm to innocents being likely.
I see what you guys are saying. I think you also know where we're coming from. Personally, though, I think that the scenario of person to person contact still has a high probability of something going gravely wrong. Grazing shots, over penetration, assailant getting control of the weapon, etc. I just don't think it's likely a permit could be issued based on one scenario. The dangers far out weigh it.
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Scratch that with the knives thing... Last season's WINNER of Master Chef was Christine Ha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Ha). What makes Christine special compared to the rest of the contestants on the show? She's BLIND!!! And she kicked the shit out of every other person there. Cutting with big, sharp, scary knives! And boiling water, cooking over hot fire too! Didn't she know she was blind for ****'s sake?
Master Chef winner and she's cute and she'll kick your ass in the kitchen! And she's BLIND!
http://cdn.sheknows.com/articles/2013/05/lounging-around-with-christine-ha-recipes-from-my-home-kitchen.jpg
Personally, though, I think that the scenario of person to person contact still has a high probability of something going gravely wrong. Grazing shots, over penetration, assailant getting control of the weapon, etc. I just don't think it's likely a permit could be issued based on one scenario. The dangers far out weigh it.
Everything you just mentioned could go equally wrong with a sighted person in an entanglement. I'm not being a prick, I'm being honest. Over penetration, how's the sighted person gonna stop that? With their steely gaze? Assailant gaining control of the weapon? Happens all the time in force on force, ECQC type drills. Grazing, yep that too.
If people don't think that a blind person has the intellectual ability to figure out you don't go ripping shots into the great unknown, in reality, they're the intellectually challenged ones. Not you personally, just an observation.
JBecker 72
09-19-13, 18:35
Here's the thing, every shot a blind person makes in public is heading into the great unknown.
But we get it, observing basic rules of safety don't apply when a disabled person can't meet the criteria.
Gutshot John
09-19-13, 18:49
But we get it, observing basic rules of safety don't apply when a disabled person can't meet the criteria.
Not really buying it...
Do the basic safety rules really apply when you're actively using the gun in a fight? I'd argue that the basic safety rules are for range time and practice...not a gunfight.
1. The gun is being used so you better hope it's not empty...until you run out.
2. You're definitely pointing the gun at something you want to to destroy (blind people are definitely capable of pointing, especially when they can touch the assailant).
3. The finger is on the trigger...they're pulling it, so would you.
4. Bullets go through bodies, and I've yet to meet a sighted person with x-ray vision.
A gunfight is an inherently unsafe activity.
Every shot a sighted person is headed into the great unknown as well. A bullet is capable of travelling well beyond where the shooter can see it, even if they have 20/20 and even if they hit the intended target, they don't really stop, and that presumes 100% accuracy (dubious at best).
Everything you just mentioned could go equally wrong with a sighted person in an entanglement. I'm not being a prick, I'm being honest. Over penetration, how's the sighted person gonna stop that? With their steely gaze? Assailant gaining control of the weapon? Happens all the time in force on force, ECQC type drills. Grazing, yep that too.
If people don't think that a blind person has the intellectual ability to figure out you don't go ripping shots into the great unknown, in reality, they're the intellectually challenged ones. Not you personally, just an observation.
I'm just gonna leave it at this, I don't feel it's safe for a blind person to take a shot at distance. Know your target & what's beyond. Nobody has addressed that yet.
Honestly, I lost interest in this thread when people started making this to be out about civil rights & making outrageous comparisons of not allowing cancer patients to have a permit either. I'm looking at this with one scenario only that's the one in the OP. I usually agree & get along with everyone involved in this thread, I'd like to keep it that way so I'm gonna bow out now. Besides, I want to hang out with my kids before they go to bed. :)
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Alaskapopo
09-19-13, 18:52
^This.
How about .mil vets & LEO with PTSD (Too dangerous, they could freak out- shouldn't carry guns)?
How about arthritis sufferers (They cannot control guns well enough to carry safely)?
How about anyone with an IQ below 130 (Not smart enough to carry a gun safely)?
How about people with diabetes (Decision fatigue- might get low blood sugar and make poor decision- shouldn't carry a gun)?
How about anyone over the age of say 75 (Too old to carry a gun)?
The list could go on and on...
You could articulate basically the same argument for denying these people their rights along with blind people.
How about down the road when we have more info on the human genome and can deny people their rights based off of genetic markers for all sorts of "potential" behavior/attributes?
This becomes a VERY slippery slope quickly!
In some cases yes. When my grandpa pointed his gun at my aunt thinking she was a burglar in the middle of the day. We as a family took his guns. There is a point when people can no longer handle the responsibility that comes with firearms. I think some of us are so pro gun and so defensive from the onslaughts from anti gunners that we are forgetting common sense.
Pat
So, you're saying the police shouldn't carry guns? (http://reason.com/blog/2013/05/01/court-oks-barring-smart-people-from-beco)
I'm only kidding, everybody relax. And I agree with your post as well.
In New York City? No.
Gutshot John
09-19-13, 18:55
In New York City? No.
Is that really the fault of the average NY police officer?
Or a 20 lb trigger (yes an exaggeration) with inadequate training?
GeorgiaBoy
09-19-13, 18:56
This becomes a VERY slippery slope quickly!
It wouldn't if the issue hadn't been brought up in the first place. I wasn't even aware (nor could have I ever imagined) that there was actually a movement to allow legally blind individuals to CCW.
But now, the issue is reaching media headlines. THAT is what could cause a "slippery slope". Once it's known people are pushing for blind CCW then they'll start thinking of more asinine disqualifications.
The pro-gun community is NOT doing itself any favors with this issue. Trying to convince the anti-gunners that people who own "assault rifles" are sane is one thing. Explaining how AR's are not evil is one thing. Trying to convince them we're sane while promoting that BLIND people should be able to carry on the streets is another.
Gutshot John
09-19-13, 18:58
I'm just gonna leave it at this, I don't feel it's safe for a blind person to take a shot at distance. Know your target & what's beyond. Nobody has addressed that yet.
Actually I did above.
I'd bet if you asked who are involved in a shooting, even if they hit what they shot at, "what was behind your target?" 99.99% of people could not reply correctly.
The notion that you're (the royal you) going to be strictly conscious of and obeying all four safety rules during a gunfight, is goofball.
Is that really the fault of the average NY police officer?
Or a 20 lb trigger (yes an exaggeration) with inadequate training?
Out of context. Last page someone posted that people shouldn't have guns with an IQ under 130 so I linked to an article where PD's won't hire people who get close to that number, so cops shouldn't have guns was the point. Essentially they're discriminating against smarter people in the hiring process and not giving them an opportunity to be a police officer.
Alaskapopo
09-19-13, 19:01
It wouldn't if the issue hadn't been brought up in the first place. I wasn't even aware (nor could have I ever imagined) that there was actually a movement to allow legally blind individuals to CCW.
But now, the issue is reaching media headlines. THAT is what could cause a "slippery slope". Once it's known people are pushing for blind CCW then they'll start thinking of more asinine disqualifications.
The pro-gun community is NOT doing itself any favors with this issue. Trying to convince the anti-gunners that people who own "assault rifles" are sane is one thing. Explaining how AR's are not evil is one thing. Trying to convince them we're sane while promoting that BLIND people should be able to carry on the streets is another.
Well said.
Pat
Alaskapopo
09-19-13, 19:04
Out of context. Last page someone posted that people shouldn't have guns with an IQ under 130 so I linked to an article where PD's won't hire people who get close to that number, so cops shouldn't have guns was the point. Essentially they're discriminating against smarter people in the hiring process and not giving them an opportunity to be a police officer.
Part of the argument for the IQ issue was smarter better educated cops quickly become bored and want to move on. There is truth to that. I know I am sick of dealing with stupid people day in and day out. After a while the job gets fairly mundane. But it is also stupid to not hire someone because they are too smart.
Pat
Gutshot John
09-19-13, 19:04
Out of context. Last page someone posted that people shouldn't have guns with an IQ under 130 so I linked to an article where PD's won't hire people who get close to that number, so cops shouldn't have guns was the point. Essentially they're discriminating against smarter people in the hiring process and not giving them an opportunity to be a police officer.
No, I saw the reference, but inferring that they shoot innocent bystanders because they're morons is a non-sequitur.
A simpler explanation is that they shoot innocent bystanders because they can't shoot.
Gutshot John
09-19-13, 19:06
Trying to convince them we're sane while promoting that BLIND people should be able to carry on the streets is another.
Who's promoting anything?
Quite the contrary, we're saying that they have as much right as anyone to defend themselves, and that appropriate standards, training, and testing is necessary if they want to exercise that right.
Part of the argument for the IQ issue was smarter better educated cops quickly become bored and want to move on. There is truth to that. I know I am sick of dealing with stupid people day in and day out. After a while the job gets fairly mundane. But it is also stupid to not hire someone because they are too smart.
Pat
Totally agree with your statement. I was trying to bring some levity to the situation since NYPD's hit rate is abysmal.
I'm with Ryno and will be checking out. Have a good one.
Alaskapopo
09-19-13, 19:10
I will admit it would be best if the persons family or friends were the ones talking the person out of carrying a firearm when they are no longer able to handle one safely. Much like taking the keys away from grandpa or grandma when they show they just can't drive safely anymore.
Pat
Here's the thing, every shot a blind person makes in public is heading into the great unknown.
Let's say I own a piece of land. It's private and safe. Nearly impossible to shoot outside of. Now say I know a soldier that lost his sight defending America. Top notch shot. He's learned to shoot on my property to the point he can target shoot by himself safely. He can set his targets, and count the hole locations, everything by himself.
Thing is he lives a mile away. We both want him to be able to walk to my place with his weapon concealed for obvious reasons.
But 50% of you say no... bad idea, he can't do that. We will not give him that equal right under law.
No one is asking to turn blind people into room clearing Ninjas. They are asking that you allow blind people to walk around with a gun in their pocket.
I'm not sure what it is about the bullets in a blind persons gun, that they are destined to end up in another person.... maybe the bullets are kin to those evil AR15s... they probably all grew up in the same bad neighborhood....
I'm just gonna leave it at this, I don't feel it's safe for a blind person to take a shot at distance. Know your target & what's beyond. Nobody has addressed that yet.
Of course it's been addressed.
1. The blind man in the video said it would have to be very close range. his words.
2. The police chief said blind people are not going to start shooting wildly just because they have a gun.
3. The blind person would use means other than sight to know his target.
4. No one really knows where a bullet will stop once it leaves the gun. It's always a risk in typical everyday life.
All of that addressed many times by many people both blind and sighted.
Just acknowledge that they can not physically meet the safety requirements that 99.999999999% of the firearms community believe are non-negotiable when using a firearm.
Oh wait you cant, because then it would be apparent that your argument is BEYOND ridiculous at this point.
Gutshot John
09-19-13, 19:41
Just acknowledge that they can not physically meet the safety requirements that 99.999999999% of the firearms community believe are non-negotiable when using a firearm.
Oh wait you cant, because then it would be apparent that your argument is BEYOND ridiculous at this point.
99.999999999%?
I've been to the range three times in the past week. Once for sporting clays, the other times just for fun and rimfire practice.
In that time, I've been muzzled twice, by 2 out of 6 people I encountered, one of whom mentioned he was an off-duty cop who said "I know how to handle a gun.'
The excuse I was given both times when I called them on it was "it's not loaded". The cop copped an attitude when I said "I don't care" and was clearly annoyed that I didn't believe him.
99.999999999%? Non-negotiable? My furry brown bahookie.
As I said, at least a blind man KNOWS HE'S BLIND.
FlyingHunter
09-19-13, 20:24
My Answer:
"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed".
There is completely blind, legally blind, etc...Are we going to have the local eye doctor convey the delineation for that person's rights?
Why stop there.
Let's say the John Doe CCW applicant has X disease or Y handicap. Maybe the medical condition causes tremors, seizures, etc...Well, from a self defense standpoint, I think we can all agree they are starting with a significant disadvantage to protect themselves.
Rephrased, the basic natural right of self preservation.
At what point do we say that medical condition X is OK but you cannot CCW with handicap Y. Who decides? Why not add a long list of conditions that take away your second amendment right. Our country has surely seen it's share of suffering from the actions of blind CCW holders right?....Right?
While I agree that family interaction and intervention to support this person is ideal. Many individuals are not fortunate enough to have these family support systems
Just acknowledge that they can not physically meet the safety requirements that 99.999999999% of the firearms community believe are non-negotiable when using a firearm.
Oh wait you cant, because then it would be apparent that your argument is BEYOND ridiculous at this point.
Actually they meet the requirements of my State without having to fire a shot or even own a weapon. Also I believe the blind man in the video demonstrated his physical ability. Did you not watch it? Anyway, apparently the firearms community had nothing to do with my State laws. Seems odd but if you say so. I guess that's why people like you make the rules and I just follow them.
Here... let me give you another everyday scenario.
My wife an I want to walk up the beach. She's blind. I just want to walk and be able to dip into the ocean as we go. I would like to just wear a bathing suit but we feel we should take a weapon just in case as she likes to wear nice jewelry and she won't be getting in the water.
Now we -could- put a weapon in her handbag and that would really be convenient but because she is blind, that would make her a criminal. But I see why you are ok with that. You mistakenly believe that those 4 rules are obeyed by everyone that pulls a trigger and thus they are good to go. I'm sorry,,, not everyone... 99.999999999%
You know what... I wonder if a blind person were alone at the beach and they were accosted might they be able to use the ocean as backstop. You know, like in the evening when no one is around. Blind people don't care if it's dark you know... plus they don't get sun burnt at night.
That would be unreasonable though to think they may be able discern and negotiate a situation where the ocean was a backstop. Yeah, that could never happen.... I like the food court idea,,, where the blind guy ends up spraying the place with bullets... that really could happen.
Oh-Uh....
J-Dub.... you better not watch this... it might scar you for life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ufbyuSrdnmU#t=493
It's interesting how the office decided to end this fight.... sort of like a blind person might have to do.. I'm just guessing, but by this time I'm thinking the officer was not overly concerned with his backstop.... not oblivious... but I really doubt he was running down a safety list.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ArDRg5SkuT0#t=261
Eurodriver
09-19-13, 21:26
Oh-Uh....
J-Dub.... you better not watch this... it might scar you for life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ufbyuSrdnmU#t=493
It's interesting how the office decided to end this fight.... sort of like a blind person might have to do.. I'm just guessing, but by this time I'm thinking the officer was not overly concerned with his backstop.... not oblivious... but I really doubt he was running down a safety list.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ArDRg5SkuT0#t=261
Just a fair warning - expect some condescending PMs from J-Dub.
He doesn't like to be challenged on his views. I wonder if he's the LEO from the video or one of the Jersey a-holes that got into a shouting match?
The bottom line is that anyone who is a legal U.S. citizen should be allowed to carry a gun. Period. To suggest otherwise is tyrannical.
Eurodriver
09-19-13, 21:44
Just acknowledge that they can not physically meet the safety requirements that 99.999999999% of the firearms community believe are non-negotiable when using a firearm.
Oh wait you cant, because then it would be apparent that your argument is BEYOND ridiculous at this point.
I will acknowledge that.
But I don't care.
Their rights do not depend on what the "Firearm's community" believe are non-negotiable.
Nor do mine. Nor do yours.
Just a fair warning - expect some condescending PMs from J-Dub.
He doesn't like to be challenged on his views. I wonder if he's the LEO from the video or one of the Jersey a-holes that got into a shouting match?
The bottom line is that anyone who is a legal U.S. citizen should be allowed to carry a gun. Period. To suggest otherwise is tyrannical.
No I don't like having little turds twist the words that I type in an effort to some how make my beliefs immoral.
And I sent you that pm so I wouldn't pull the thread off topic, but I'll say it right now instead...
You're ****ing retard.
I've got to go to work now, and FYI I wont be murdered on shift like you stated you wanted me to be, via pm......(probably because i'm not blind)
Eurodriver
09-19-13, 22:02
I've got to go to work now, and FYI I wont be murdered on shift like you stated you wanted me to be, via pm...(probably because i'm not blind)
LOL!!!!! :D What is "work"? I just hang out eating MREs all day brother.
P.S. You have mail.
Be safe.
LOL!!!!! :D What is "work"? I just hang out eating MREs all day brother.
P.S. You have mail.
Be safe.
**** YOU
SWATcop556
09-19-13, 22:08
Anyone else need a temporary vacation? I'm in the giving mood tonight.
Anyone else need a temporary vacation? I'm in the giving mood tonight.
I'd love one... I'm thinking Cabo with one of those little umbrellas in my drink :D
SWATcop556
09-20-13, 02:31
I'd love one... I'm thinking Cabo with one of those little umbrellas in my drink :D
Hey if I'm giving those kind away please take me with you. I travel light. A good bourbon and a cigar and I'll be happy.
I'm not even going to vote on this. To be absolute in the spirit of rights for all they should be allowed. In the real world, how is this going to be viable and safe?
I have extremely poor vision. Should I be banned from using a firearm? With glasses or contacts I am not a horrible shot (not great by any meansi). Where is the line drawn? Who decides? What are the parameters? If I don't put my glasses on am I guilty of a crime?
I always think about this like hunting. Are you sure of the shot? And what is behind the animal? Those "pesky"' rules always get in the way. The big four.
I am truly torn when a RIGHT is in question because of a disability.
But a blind person firing a weapon is a scary proposition.
Where the middle ground is I don't know. Someone of greater forethought and knowledge school me.
Where the middle ground is I don't know.
Middle ground is where two land owners decide to share the cost of a fence.
Compromise is where Liberals capture the rights of free men.
Vice did a documentary on the guy, the first blind person to get a CCW. Here's the trailer and I'll post the full version when it becomes available, should be pretty interesting.
http://youtu.be/1xQcYzdCKSE
Since when does a disability (excluding mental health reasons) justify a curtailment of ones civil liberties? If anything considering the accommodations legally mandated to be provided to disabled persons they should damn near get their own armed bodyguard to ccw for them lol
Civil liberties,,yes.
I'm not even going to vote on this. To be absolute in the spirit of rights for all they should be allowed. In the real world, how is this going to be viable and safe?
I have extremely poor vision. Should I be banned from using a firearm? With glasses or contacts I am not a horrible shot (not great by any meansi). Where is the line drawn? Who decides? What are the parameters? If I don't put my glasses on am I guilty of a crime?
I always think about this like hunting. Are you sure of the shot? And what is behind the animal? Those "pesky"' rules always get in the way. The big four.
I am truly torn when a RIGHT is in question because of a disability.
But a blind person firing a weapon is a scary proposition.
Where the middle ground is I don't know. Someone of greater forethought and knowledge school me.
There have been some shooters with 20/20 vision that firing a gun has been a scary propositon.
Those of you who voted "no" -- I wonder if you thought about the scenario where you've carried all your adult life, tragically lost your sight, and then someone comes and takes away your CCW permit, SP101, and IWB leather. You good with that?
Not that it would go like that because probably just the CCW permit would be invalidated, but, do you get what I'm saying?
You don't need your sight to shoot a bad guy at point blank in the darkness of the night. If you can smell what he ate for dinner, and can put a hand on him, you can sure as heck put lead in his chest if you are functional and your shooting hand is free.
As far as I know, a blind person can legally carry concealed in Arizona. I don't know of a sight restriction on Constitutional Carry as implemented here.
My state makes you shoot to qualify to get a CCW. If he shoots and qualifies, sure...
Vice did a documentary on the guy, the first blind person to get a CCW. Here's the trailer and I'll post the full version when it becomes available, should be pretty interesting.
Just watched that, yes he deserves that CCW in my mind
If he shoots and qualifies, sure...
He did, multiple qualifications, as stated in the video above. (Typing same time as you)
It's been roughly a year since this first came up and guess what? No blood running in the street like all the antis rant and rave about every damn thing concerning guns and there's a lot of people in this thread that I can't tell which side of the fence they live on.
My father is blind and anti-gun.
Part of having a body includes the body being aware of its own spatial relationships... including pointing. He's good at pointing. He's good at locating things when he already can reference their distance. He's not good, of course, when they move, or he moves, and there's no way to gauge how things have moved.
I could put an airsoft pistol in his hand if and see if he can hit me, if you wish. I bet he could. he may even set his moral compass aside for a moment and get pleasure out of hearing me squeal. It still would be a tough sell because he can't reliably identify his target. He can't reasonably ascertain what's around or behind his target. That's a lot of responsibility to put on a person.
What is the next question? Should blind people be allowed to drive cars and fly airplanes? :D
What is the next question? Should blind people be allowed to drive cars and fly airplanes? :D
Next they'll want the right to get married! :fie:
The full documentary. I've yet to watch it in it's entirety.
http://youtu.be/f_edYuAX-Jg
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