View Full Version : Russia has adopted the AK-12.
sinlessorrow
09-19-13, 23:49
So I keep getting a post requires moderation thing when I link so I'll just say it.
Russian websites are reporting that the AK-12 has officially been adopted. So whats every ones thoughts on this?
I find it interesting they actually are going through with getting the rifle adopted, should make things interesting.
AK-12U
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/10002.jpg
Also they are going to a clear polymer magazine now.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/10003-660x495.jpg
Interesting.
I have never heard of the AK-12. Is it chambered in 5.45?
By looks it seems to take care of the problems that the 47 had as in lacking in methods of mounting necessary equipment.
This will sure start the AK-12 vs AR-15 debate.
sinlessorrow
09-20-13, 00:37
Interesting.
I have never heard of the AK-12. Is it chambered in 5.45?
By looks it seems to take care of the problems that the 47 had as in lacking in methods of mounting necessary equipment.
This will sure start the AK-12 vs AR-15 debate.
5.45, from what I can tell its basically a more ergonomic AK with tighter tolerences for enhanced accuracy with a new brake.
http://warthog.novarata.net/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=3293&g2_serialNumber=1
It kind of looks like a SCAR.
From what I read this is a decision to test it for adoption not formally adopt it. There is no volume production and no military qualified testing out there.
Also remember the Abakan tests which resulted in the AN-94 being officially adopted, until it wasn't really.
Interesting.
I have never heard of the AK-12. Is it chambered in 5.45?
By looks it seems to take care of the problems that the 47 had as in lacking in methods of mounting necessary equipment.
This will sure start the AK-12 vs AR-15 debate.
Apparently both a 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 versions will be made for the russian military, and they plan at least 5.56x45 versions for export.
It kind of looks like a SCAR.
What I was thinking, to an extent.
I'd be interested in buying one, depending on the price of course! :D
It kind of looks like a SCAR.
It's like the AK12 is what the natural evolution of the AK47 should have been 20 years ago...except imho the AK12 is "20" years late to the table, FN engineered a new gun using some of the best aspects of the AK47 and made the SCAR.
albatrossarmament
09-20-13, 08:34
It's like the AK12 is what the natural evolution of the AK47 should have been 20 years ago...except imho the AK12 is "20" years late to the table, FN engineered a new gun using some of the best aspects of the AK47 and made the SCAR.
I own examples of both he SCAR and AKM...and can't think of a single aspect of the AK that is incorporated into the SCAR.
I own examples of both he SCAR and AKM...and can't think of a single aspect of the AK that is incorporated into the SCAR.
Uhhh it's piston operated...
It's kind of like saying I own a 69 camaro and a 2013 camaro...not a single aspect from the 69 is incorporated in the 2013...:rolleyes:
Uhhh it's piston operated...
It's kind of like saying I own a 69 camaro and a 2013 camaro...not a single aspect from the 69 is incorporated in the 2013...:rolleyes:
All self loading rifles that aren't recoil operated are gas operated.
SCAR uses a short stroke piston, AK uses long. By that criteria, the AK is closer to an AR as both of them are long stroke piston designs.
H
MountainRaven
09-20-13, 09:07
All self loading rifles that aren't recoil operated are gas operated.
SCAR uses a short stroke piston, AK uses long. By that criteria, the AK is closer to an AR as both of them are long stroke piston designs.
H
*Cough* HK91 *Cough*
As for the AK-12, I'll believe it when it actually happens.
Am I the only one who finds it interesting that the pic in the OP has a brown one with (what looks to be) a black Elcan on it?
*Cough* HK91 *Cough*
As for the AK-12, I'll believe it when it actually happens.
Am I the only one who finds it interesting that the pic in the OP has a brown one with (what looks to be) a black Elcan on it?
HK91 would be gas operated. Consider the cartridge case as a one use, throw away gas piston that actuates the action.
H
There are very specific terms that you can use in describing how a firearm functions. We do not have to invent them, and in fact we shouldn't!
Short stroke piston operated=Piston is separate part from the bolt carrier and it moves shorter distance than the bolt carrier. (SCAR, G-36, HK416, ACR)
long stroke piston operated=Piston moves the same length as the carrier and may be integral to it. (AK47, PKM, NSV)
Direct impingment operated=Gas is led to bolt carrier and actuates the movement of the carrier directly. (M16, MAS49)
Blowback operated=There is no solid lock between the breech and the bolt. As the cartridge is ignited the bullet starts moving towards the muzzle and the bolt rearwards. (Ruger 10/22, Suomi SMG, MP38/40)
Roller delayed blowback=as above, but delayed by the rollers until they are pressed against the bolt body allowing the BCG move rear (G3, MP5)
There are very specific terms that you can use in describing how a firearm functions. We do not have to invent them, and in fact we shouldn't!
Short stroke piston operated=Piston is separate part from the bolt carrier and it moves shorter distance than the bolt carrier. (SCAR, G-36, HK416, ACR)
long stroke piston operated=Piston moves the same length as the carrier and may be integral to it. (AK47, PKM, NSV)
Direct impingment operated=Gas is led to bolt carrier and actuates the movement of the carrier directly. (M16, MAS49)
Blowback operated=There is no solid lock between the breech and the bolt. As the cartridge is ignited the bullet starts moving towards the muzzle and the bolt rearwards. (Ruger 10/22, Suomi SMG, MP38/40)
Roller delayed blowback=as above, but delayed by the rollers until they are pressed against the bolt body allowing the BCG move rear (G3, MP5)
Agreed, there are specific technical terms that describe how things work.
As for why the standard AR is a varient on the long stroke gas piston, refer to Armalite Tech Note 54:
http://www.armalite.com/images/Tech%20Notes%5CTech%20Note%2054,%20Gas%20vs%20Op%20Rod%20Drive,%20020815.pdf
The gas expands within a donut shaped gas cylinder within the carrier. Because the bolt is prevented from moving forward by the barrel, the carrier is driven to the rear by the expanding gasses and thus converts the energy of the gas to movement of the rifle’s parts. The bolt bears a piston head and the cavity in the bolt carrier is the piston sleeve.
As a last note, misuse of the term “direct impingement” to describe the Stoner system is so common that it has confused the issue. A direct impingement system like that of the AG-42 Ljungman or the French MAS-49 rifle taps gas at the barrel and passes it into the receiver in a way similar to the M16, (the source o f the confusion) but deposits it into a small, shallow cup or pocket in the carrier. The gas expands there and drives the carrier to the rear with relatively little pneumatic advantage.
As for delayed blowback being a type of gas operation, I'm using Chinn's The Machine Gun as a reference. Basically, he qualifies all self reloading firearms as either recoil or gas operated. It's a useful concept if you're trying to figure out how firearms work. I'll get the relevant text posted later.
H
Still decades behind western assault rifle development.
Still decades behind western assault rifle development.
Or the AK was decades ahead of Western assault rifle development.
H
WickedWillis
09-20-13, 11:23
Because it has so little polymer? How do you see this as behind? Most Western assault rifles are still struggling to try to come close to the AK's reliability.
Still decades behind western assault rifle development.
RogerinTPA
09-20-13, 11:59
Based on what the U.S. has done to modularize the M16 FOW, and the large amounts different types of furniture, rails, lights, optics, lasers, etc (Starting with the Son Tay Raiders, Somalia, the SOPMOD program)...and how effective we have employed them over the last 13+ years, it's a long time coming. Gun forums like this and the sponsors, contributing to innovative designs, which i'm sure their folks are perusing on a regular basis, it was inevitable. Based on all the open source evidence, down to using US gun parts on their weapons... they were bound to follow our lead. Great and innovative ideas are hard to keep contained, despite ITAR regs.
Because it has so little polymer? How do you see this as behind? Most Western assault rifles are still struggling to try to come close to the AK's reliability.
They are no more reliable than the other rifles available. Certain aspects of the design can handle more neglect and abuse but it's still just as easy to sideline an AK as it is an AR.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
As for why the standard AR is a varient on the long stroke gas piston, refer to Armalite Tech Note 54:
Trying to say AR15 operates on a long stroke piston is IMHO really, really far fetched idea. Main differences in function between direct impingment and piston weapons come in the location where gas pressure is transformed into mechanical force. Gas operated piston guns do that at the gas port, gas operated direct impingment weapons at the breech of the weapon.
Even though Stoner wanted to emphasize the fact that AR15 is not a traditional DI weapon, but a more elaborate design, it is quite clear that the AR15 carries all the pro's and con's as the older DI designs. Only real difference here is that ES used more parts to achieve a design where the forces are acting on a single axis instead of a slight offset of forces.
If we say blowback is a gas operated system, then we must also say recoil operated guns like, Browning inspired hand guns, Auto-5 or M2 are gas operated systems too. There is no difference to blowback guns in the operating of the weapon except for the fact that the gas moves the bolt and the barrel instead of the bolt alone while the bullet acts as a piston. So we could as well call M2 as a gas piston operated gun, couldn't we? :)
They are no more reliable than the other rifles available. Certain aspects of the design can handle more neglect and abuse but it's still just as easy to sideline an AK as it is an AR.
Hardly true. Some designs are lighter, some longer, others more accurate and some more reliable than others. AK has the reliability covered exceedingly well and there are many aspects of the design that indeed make it inherently more reliable than most other designs.
sinlessorrow
09-20-13, 13:19
Off topic
I am confused. In the first pic, our friend Vlado appears to be holding a rifle with an uninterrupted rail, whereas in the pictures of a disassembled AK-12 below, it appears to hinge at the front sight/ gas block.
Also, since it appears to be using a railed dust cover, I am curious if this rail will hold zero under hard use and reassembly. My experience with railed dust covers has not exactly been stellar, to say the least.
sinlessorrow
09-20-13, 13:37
Off topic
The AR has far more in common with a piston operation than a DI system like the ljungman.
I'd like to see you write out the reasoning behind that. Especially if it doesn't contain mentioning a bolt that acts like a piston. There isn't much common with any piston operated rifle and the Stoner system, I'm afraid.
Also in the AR the fouling in the receiver does not come from the gas tube, nor from the gas used to cycle the action. Unlike the DI system where it vents hot gasses all over the bolt/carrier.
I have a short-stroke piston AR that runs exceptionally clean. Not even compared to DI AR's, but really compared to anything. If, in your opinion, it is not the direct tube of dirty pressurised gas leading to the receiver, I wonder what is the reason that DI AR's internals are caked in carbon after few hundred rounds.
Doc. Holiday
09-20-13, 17:02
Also in the AR the fouling in the receiver does not come from the gas tube, nor from the gas used to cycle the action. Unlike the DI system where it vents hot gasses all over the bolt/carrier.
Where does the carbon come from then? There is no such thing as "clean gas" for weapons.
sinlessorrow
09-20-13, 17:26
Off topic
Doc. Holiday
09-20-13, 17:31
First off, I'm not trying to attack you or anything. Your comment surprised me though. The way I have understood it was the bullet goes off, the gases are released and go into the tube which cause pressure that helps push the extractor back to cycle a new round. These gases have a mix of copper and carbon in them thus creating a dirty gun.
Correct me if I'm wrong.:confused:
sinlessorrow
09-20-13, 18:34
Off topic
Moose-Knuckle
09-20-13, 19:35
Cool, I wished they would give me a Conex cointainer full of AK-12Us and applicable ammo to try out . . .
Found the quote I was looking for earlier:
Chinn The Machine Gun, Vol. 4, Preface:
Held to the strictest interpretation of the definition and to the means by which the function is accomplished, there is only one primary force that actuates any automatic weapon: namely, the energy generated by explosion of the powder charge contained in the chamber of the barrel. There have been, to date, only two known means that can be derived by this source of power that have resulted in successful operation: (1) the rearward thrust of the recoiling mass; and (2) pressure generated in the bore by the expanding gas of the progressive burning charge. The former is known as recoil operation, while the latter is labeled gas operation. All known means used in making an automatic weapon complete a full cycle fall into this broad classification, whether the mechanics employed be reciprocating or rotary.
The standard AR is a long stroke gas piston. Stoner realized he could use a long gas tube to take the place of the op rod, reducing moving and overall mass and simplifying construction. The bolt forms the piston and the bolt carrier the gas cylinder.
Does it really matter that the gas is piped back 12” to the piston? If so, how close does the piston need to be to the gas port?
H
Heavy Metal
09-20-13, 20:20
There are very specific terms that you can use in describing how a firearm functions. We do not have to invent them, and in fact we shouldn't!
Short stroke piston operated=Piston is separate part from the bolt carrier and it moves shorter distance than the bolt carrier. (SCAR, G-36, HK416, ACR)
long stroke piston operated=Piston moves the same length as the carrier and may be integral to it. (AK47, PKM, NSV)
Direct impingment operated=Gas is led to bolt carrier and actuates the movement of the carrier directly. (M16, MAS49)
Blowback operated=There is no solid lock between the breech and the bolt. As the cartridge is ignited the bullet starts moving towards the muzzle and the bolt rearwards. (Ruger 10/22, Suomi SMG, MP38/40)
Roller delayed blowback=as above, but delayed by the rollers until they are pressed against the bolt body allowing the BCG move rear (G3, MP5)
The M-16 is often incorrectly called Direct Impingment but it really is a form of piston operation where the rear-end of the bolt serves as a stationary piston.
MountainRaven
09-20-13, 21:11
There are very specific terms that you can use in describing how a firearm functions. We do not have to invent them, and in fact we shouldn't!
Short stroke piston operated=Piston is separate part from the bolt carrier and it moves shorter distance than the bolt carrier. (SCAR, G-36, HK416, ACR)
long stroke piston operated=Piston moves the same length as the carrier and may be integral to it. (AK47, PKM, NSV)
Direct impingment operated=Gas is led to bolt carrier and actuates the movement of the carrier directly. (M16, MAS49)
Blowback operated=There is no solid lock between the breech and the bolt. As the cartridge is ignited the bullet starts moving towards the muzzle and the bolt rearwards. (Ruger 10/22, Suomi SMG, MP38/40)
Roller delayed blowback=as above, but delayed by the rollers until they are pressed against the bolt body allowing the BCG move rear (G3, MP5)
There is also long- and short-recoil operated and inertia operated.
Although, I don't believe anyone makes a short-recoil operated rifle. Or an inertia-operated rifle.
Side stepping the arguments about operating systems and what they are called due to the fact that these things are already well established and require no debate...I want one.
Not sure if it's better or worse than the AKM or AK74. No idea if it is superior to the SCAR, M4 or any other system. It's an interesting and new AK variant and that is good enough for me.
I love the hinged top cover and hope it results in a stable sighting platform. If Arsenal brings them in and they don't cost twice what a 6920 costs I'll probably grab one.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-20-13, 21:32
I am with Steyr. I think one of those with an Aimpoint would be pretty groovy.
Larry Vickers
09-20-13, 22:00
By the way I disagree with the Armalite summarization of the Stoner gas system vs direct impingement - remember this is the Illinois Armalite; not to be confused with the original - the name was purchased not the knowledge
If propellant gases are used to impinge directly into the BCG to operate the action it is a DI weapon - period
The fact the bolt is also used as a piston to temporarily seal an expansion chamber is unique and ingenious but does not change anything about my statement above
And I will compare my knowledge of the subject matter to anyone at Armalite Illinios or otherwise
Enough said
LAV out
sinlessorrow
09-20-13, 22:28
Off topic
Here's a SADJ article on the AK-12's details: http://sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1841
Larry Vickers
09-21-13, 07:16
Sinlesssorrow ; how much do you know about firearms patents? How many have you been involved in ? It's safe to say I have involved in a few - the nature of someone seeking a patent is to enhance the differences of their design vs what came before
Stoner wasnt going to say 'I just copied the gas tube on a pre WW II French design and turned the bolt into a piston' ? That wouldn't have flown very far.
Stoner had some great ideas and his designs have done well but lets not gloss over the fact the gas system is less than ideal for many users as well as other design flaws - such as a poorly designed magazine
His gas system is a direct impingement design - period. It has some features that make it unique but gas impinges directly into the bolt carrier in order to cycle the action; done deal
In addition I own every weapon up and down the chain on this ; all the French MAS rifles, Swedish Ljungman, Egyptian Hakim and Rasheed, original Sudanese, Guatemalan and Porto AR-10's as well as a Colt Model 01 AR-15 - so I know of what I speak ; I can put my hands on the rifle, not just read about it in a book or on the Internet
Not only did this deliver a smack down, but a smack down with more relevant information.
Now - back on topic:
IF these are ever made and IF they ever get imported I'll be picking up one of the first ones.
What I'm referring to as the gas piston is formed by the rear end of the bolt. Combined with the bolt carrier group you get a gas piston (that's stationary) and a gas cylinder (that moves under the influence of gas pressure).
Does it really matter that the gas piston gets its gas remotely?
H
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-2yFqaw_FrZg/Uj3DUt2A3yI/AAAAAAAAG5w/yAQITDYKHww/w924-h693-no/bcg+cutaway2.jpg
It kind of looks like a SCAR.
In a commie way!:o:o:bad:
I could get behind a commie SCAR for sure. Poland has some very nice upgrades/design changes to the Kalashnikov platform....seen some prototypes a couple years ago in SAR, including a bullpup that looked very usable.:)
Does it really matter that the gas piston gets its gas remotely?
First of all the "piston" in question only seals the bolt carrier. Second the "piston" does not move the bolt carrier (or anything else) like in piston operated designs. Third gas actuates the bolt carrier directly. Fourth, yes it does really matter.
Here is a machine in which piston is used to produce movement. It has not got a piston engine. Specific and exact terms can be used to describe a functioning of a machine in only a word or few. Direct impingment describes how a action of a weapon work in engineering terms. It really doesn't matter how the individual parts are shaped, but how, where and why the potential energy contained in high-pressure gases is transformed into mechanical work. Like in the picture, the engine has a piston that rotates the wheels but the correct description is still steam locomotive. It describes the machine in exact terms.
http://www.virginiaandtruckee.com/locomotive/images/Locomotive%2018.jpg
First of all the "piston" in question only seals the bolt carrier. Second the "piston" does not move the bolt carrier (or anything else) like in piston operated designs. Third gas actuates the bolt carrier directly. Fourth, yes it does really matter.
Here is a machine in which piston is used to produce movement. Yet engineers in their technically specific language claim that it has not got a piston engine:
http://www.virginiaandtruckee.com/locomotive/images/Locomotive%2018.jpg
Two counter examples: Mini-14 and AR18 use a stationary gas piston and moving gas cylinder that provides power to operate the firearm.
What do you want to call the AR's operating system? I think it's more useful to separate the a Stoner type use of gas from previous examples where gas is blown onto the surface or shallow cup on the bolt carrier.
Your involving an external combustion engine that uses steam in a piston isn't relevant to the discussion. It's an external combustion engine that's only remotely related to internal combustion engines like firearms.
H
sinlessorrow
09-21-13, 14:14
Off topic
As the case is extracted it causes a suction that sucks in the gas still left in the bore, this is the majority of the fouling we see. Sure there is some blow by of gas from the gas chamber in the carrier but it is minimal honestly.
This is not correct.
If it were true, an HK416 upper, BCG and lower would be just as dirty as a DI gun. And it most definitely is not.
Second, there is no "suction" as the casing is extracted. Sure, some gas might vent out the ejection port, but compared to the amount that is vented back through the tube, it is pretty minimal. There is no vaccum that starts sucking gas out of the bore from the chamber end.
Two counter examples: Mini-14 and AR18 use a stationary gas piston and moving gas cylinder that provides power to operate the firearm.
If you read the my message that you quoted, you will find this sentence:
"It really doesn't matter how the individual parts are shaped, but how, where and why the potential energy contained in high-pressure gases is transformed into mechanical work."
What do you want to call the AR's operating system? I think it's more useful to separate the a Stoner type use of gas from previous examples where gas is blown onto the surface or shallow cup on the bolt carrier.
It is a direct impingment system. Answer to why is the text above. But this still isn't even a matter of an opinion. Complexity of Stoner system just makes it complicated DI.
sinlessorrow
09-21-13, 16:56
Off topic
Really happy I didn't dive in with my opinion of DI vs. piston vs. other systems and what constitutes each system.
:lol:
Dammit, when do I grow up and learn... :D
I find it interesting that the Russians are using essentially a slightly modified top cover setup. It seems likely that a hinged top cover and optic rail would be susceptible to causing wandering optic zero. A more optic friendly solution would have been dedicated upper and lower receivers with an integral non-removable, immobile optic rail. In other words, why not design a SCAR-inspired upper with AK internals.
I find it interesting that the Russians are using essentially a slightly modified top cover setup. It seems likely that a hinged top cover and optic rail would be susceptible to causing wandering optic zero. A more optic friendly solution would have been dedicated upper and lower receivers with an integral non-removable, immobile optic rail. In other words, why not design a SCAR-inspired upper with AK internals.
Perhaps they felt the results they got with the Krink hinged top cover were acceptable.
The guns that Putin inspected in that article appear to have some design updates from the first AK-12's that were shown off.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/10002.jpg
http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/east_europe/russia/weapons/ak-12/pictures/AK-12_Kalashnikov_assault_rifle_Izhmash_Russia_Russian_defence_industry_military_technology_004.jpg
The top cover hinge seems to be missing from the new guns, and the new top cover seems to ribs pressed in for better reinforcement. The hand guard and stock also appear to be new designs.
If a civilian export version does become a reality I would definitely like to pick one up, provided they aren't outrageously priced.
The guns that Putin inspected in that article appear to have some design updates from the first AK-12's that were shown off.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/10002.jpg
http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/east_europe/russia/weapons/ak-12/pictures/AK-12_Kalashnikov_assault_rifle_Izhmash_Russia_Russian_defence_industry_military_technology_004.jpg
The top cover hinge seems to be missing from the new guns, and the new top cover seems to ribs pressed in for better reinforcement. The hand guard and stock also appear to be new designs.
If a civilian export version does become a reality I would definitely like to pick one up, provided they aren't outrageously priced.
I wonder if the bolt carrier is able to be removed out of the rear of the receiver once the stock is removed. The full length fixed top rail seems like it would preclude removal of the bolt carrier in the usual Kalishnikov fashion.
I wonder if the bolt carrier is able to be removed out of the rear of the receiver once the stock is removed. The full length fixed top rail seems like it would preclude removal of the bolt carrier in the usual Kalishnikov fashion.
The top rail could be mounted in a tongue and groove kind of way behind the gas block it looks like (I don't know). That way the entire top rail could be slid off rearward after being unlatched by a locking piece above the rear trunnion. Good question though, would like to see some high res pics of it.
wild_wild_wes
09-22-13, 17:58
Oh dang, a while back I heard the Russians were taking a hard look at the 6.5 Grendel. Too bad they did not take the ball and run with it.
Tzintzuntzan
09-22-13, 20:15
Can't wait for the 7.62x39 version of this to come out so I can see how it holds up. Personally I'm surprised the AK12 doesn't have a magwell.
Cylinder Head
09-22-13, 20:29
First of all, there is no Smackdown like an LAV Smackdown.
Second of all, I really want one of these in 7.62x39
I noticed that Comrad Putin look natural handling a firearm. Our leader seems not!
Our guy looks better behind a golf club, casually smoking.
The Russians were not going to a bull pup? The Chinese have.
Talking about DI and piston activated, my AUG has a wee short piston, no dirt gets back into the works.
I still will never understand us not using a Bull Pup design. You reach up, jack the action, the M4, you pull the action over your shoulder, what's that about. And the M4 magazines, crap. Now the AUG, magazines, they are magazines, you can see through them!
The top rail could be mounted in a tongue and groove kind of way behind the gas block it looks like (I don't know). That way the entire top rail could be slid off rearward after being unlatched by a locking piece above the rear trunnion. Good question though, would like to see some high res pics of it.
That was my thinking as well. It would certainly be interesting to see one of the newer guns broken down an see exactly how that top cover attaches. I can't help but wonder if there will be any issues with a wandering zero.
I wonder if the bolt carrier is able to be removed out of the rear of the receiver once the stock is removed. The full length fixed top rail seems like it would preclude removal of the bolt carrier in the usual Kalishnikov fashion.
Hope that magazine is empty. Russian politics have short endings!
wild_wild_wes
09-23-13, 08:05
I don't understand why it needs dual-side ejection. The ejection ports are gigantic too.
morbidbattlecry
09-23-13, 20:30
The only thing i really know is that i want one.
I don't understand why it needs dual-side ejection. The ejection ports are gigantic too.
They are about as big as an AK.
??
I don't understand why it needs dual-side ejection. The ejection ports are gigantic too.
When it comes to the size of the ejection port, no gun beats the Vz.58, it looks like it could eject a .338.
BoringGuy45
09-25-13, 00:05
I wonder if this new rifle is going to completely replace the AK-74s or if only the Spetnaz and Alfa groups are going to get them, as this seems to often be the case with advanced weapons designs in Russia.
wild_wild_wes
09-28-13, 01:06
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6314/101853371.43/0_9f5c2_66d1c942_orig.jpg
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4806/101853371.44/0_9f5f6_d4ce86a2_orig.jpg
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5111/101853371.44/0_9f5f0_3ae4d24b_orig.jpg
I can see daylight through that dual ejection port
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5110/101853371.44/0_9f601_1092845f_orig.jpg
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5304/101853371.44/0_9f5f5_83e7cff8_orig.jpg
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5802/101853371.43/0_9f5cb_d556c7d6_orig.jpg
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5111/101853371.43/0_9f5ce_1a0f5d40_orig.jpg
It's big and black and ugly. I like it.
CageFighter
10-13-13, 21:58
So I keep getting a post requires moderation thing when I link so I'll just say it.
Russian websites are reporting that the AK-12 has officially been adopted. So whats every ones thoughts on this?
I find it interesting they actually are going through with getting the rifle adopted, should make things interesting.
Also they are going to a clear polymer magazine now.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/10003-660x495.jpg
is this a cheap version of the Elcan SpecterDR on the greenie?
The top rail could be mounted in a tongue and groove kind of way behind the gas block it looks like (I don't know). That way the entire top rail could be slid off rearward after being unlatched by a locking piece above the rear trunnion. Good question though, would like to see some high res pics of it.
Unless this is a non-functioning mockup, I think you're right. There's no way to remove the carrier assembly through the rear ala SCAR, and there's no hinge. The top rail must come off some way, and it does look in the last picture as if the lever release on the side of the receiver has been replaced by a more traditional top cover release latch, modified to prevent a tonge-in-groove top cover extending to the gas block from sliding rearward off the weapon.
9 Micky Mouse
10-19-13, 10:10
They have been watching us as you can see from this rifle. A rail for optics, vertical grip, and other accessories.
Bandanabandit1
10-22-13, 23:03
If it aint broke don't fix it. :D
Maybe I missed it but what advantages does the AK-12 offer over the upgrades that can be done to AK-47's and 74's we already have access to by some of our AK guys like Fuller and Krebs?
Rail space over the receiver that is lighter than a sidemount solution can be and won't have zero shift issues like all of the hinged top cover optic mounts seem to.
God that thing is ugly. I'm not the biggest AK fan and I'll admit I've seen some ugly AR's but that is the red headed step child of the russian rifle family.
Eye of the beholder I guess, as I think it looks fine.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1239728_565687346824020_1590574885_n.jpg
BoringGuy45
10-29-13, 00:30
God that thing is ugly. I'm not the biggest AK fan and I'll admit I've seen some ugly AR's but that is the red headed step child of the russian rifle family.
Glad I'm not the only one. I actually like the way the AK looks. It's classic and sexy in a strange way. But this thing is just too boxy and had angles in all the wrong places in my opinion.
Glad I'm not the only one. I actually like the way the AK looks. It's classic and sexy in a strange way. But this thing is just too boxy and had angles in all the wrong places in my opinion.
Exactly. The regular AK is a nice looking rifle and has stood the test of time but I feel like this is the result of an AR and an AK getting too drunk at a party and you know the rest.
I don't like mixing platforms. Like 1913 rails screwed onto old ww2 era rifles.
Ugly as sin!!!!!!
Again, with the exception of the strange color, I think it looks just fine.
http://himg2.huanqiu.com/attachment2010/2013/0922/20130922091904737.jpg
wild_wild_wes
10-29-13, 08:02
Why all the focus on "looks".
Maybe I'm just missing it, but where is the charging handle on this thing?
Maybe I'm just missing it, but where is the charging handle on this thing?
Other side, it's switchable like a SCAR..
thebarracuda
11-03-13, 13:53
Its the russian lego rifle. I know its not cool to worry about looks, but that things ugly. If it works great, then no one will care what it looks like. Like our Glocks!
That's funny since I think it looks good.
I want to know what it weighs compared to the 7.4lb AK-74M.
Again, with the exception of the strange color, I think it looks just fine.
http://himg2.huanqiu.com/attachment2010/2013/0922/20130922091904737.jpg
7.62x39? What kind of magazine?
Grand58742
11-04-13, 19:31
Other side, it's switchable like a SCAR..
Is it a fold flat like the H&K style?
The one Comrade Putin is fondling does bear more than a passing resemblance to the SCAR.
Direct impingment operated=Gas is led to bolt carrier and actuates the movement of the carrier directly. (M16, MAS49)
The M16 FOW is not a direct impingement system, according to Eugene Stoner, it's inventor. A DI system does not use a piston and the gasses impinge on the carrier only, impinges on the exterior of the carrier and does not use an expansion chamber
The M16 FOW is not a direct impingement system, according to Eugene Stoner, it's inventor. A DI system does not use a piston and the gasses impinge on the carrier only, impinges on the exterior of the carrier and does not use an expansion chamber
Mr Vickers explained the reasoning behind the terms used in Stoner's patent application quite nicely in this very thread. I am inclined to side with him.
Back to actual topic at hand...
I'm still waiting on word of if and when a semi-auto version will start hitting U.S. shores. The official announcement was made a year ago that we would see these in 2013, but that time frame seems to have gone out of the window and I haven't been able to find anything since. The guns would sell like hot cakes over here and I'm sure the newly named Kalashnikov plant would love to recoup some of the development and testing costs with U.S. civilian market sales.
Back to actual topic at hand...
I'm still waiting on word of if and when a semi-auto version will start hitting U.S. shores. The official announcement was made a year ago that we would see these in 2013, but that time frame seems to have gone out of the window and I haven't been able to find anything since. The guns would sell like hot cakes over here and I'm sure the newly named Kalashnikov plant would love to recoup some of the development and testing costs with U.S. civilian market sales.
Yeah no kidding, sign me up for one. Hopefully they can be sub 2k. Doubtful though.
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