AR Cheekweld

[midSCarolina]

This may be in the wrong section so if it is i apologize but i was just trying to get an idea of what a cheekweld is and why it is important when shooting ARs. This may be a stupid question but i was told something completely different than what i thought. Do you need a cheekweld if using non-magnified optics like an aimpoint? Should there be a difference in your cheekweld when shooting from standing, kneeling, or prone?

To answer my own question, I thought that your cheekweld was for proper alignment behind the rifle to give you consistency between shots and consistent recoil management. Say you were using an EOTech + Magnifier (I don't but if you do...) I was thinking you would want the same cheekweld whether you were using the magnifier or if you were just using the EOTech for the sake of consistency. I was told "You don't need a cheekweld when running the EXPS3-2 without the magnifier because the Eotech doesn't have eye relief." and didn't agree but the guy was ridiculously adamant about it so i wanted to check with everyone here. Thanks

[Hmac]

Consistent cheek weld can be important with some magnified scopes depending on shooting distance and their parallax distance, but parallax, although present, isn't as big an issue with most quality red dot sights, therefore cheek weld not quite as important. Not to say that consistent presentation isn't important in accurate or repeatable shooting, but probably more of an issue for, say, bench rest shooters than for someone shooting a tactical rifle in a tactical scenario.

[MistWolf]

A consistent cheekweld and consistent form go hand in hand and is most important when using iron sights. It's claimed that RDS sights have no parallax but it's not true with my Aimpoint H1. There is a small amount of parallax shift.

When using a magnified optic, including a true 1x (RDS type optics are NOT magnified optics and are NOT true 1x, they non-magnified and are the same as if looking through iron sights) getting a consistent cheekweld is important because of the "eyebox". Not only does getting a cheekweld help reduce any parallax shift (if any) it places the eye the correct distance for the eye relief but also the right location so the eye at the right height and right location left & right so no time is lost having to align the eye.

With the RDS, there is no eye relief to worry about and it's much more forgiving with eye alignment. It's best to have the red dot floating in the middle of the field of view, but the shooter can still make good hits if the dot is off to the side and high or low and, unlike when using a magnified optic, will still have full field of view instead of part or all of it being blacked out.

Iron sights are the most critical sights when it comes to parallax and the shooter has to place the eye so it's correctly and consistently aligned with the rear sight. The shooter has to use parallax in order to see when the front sight is aligned with the rear.

Parallax in optical sights is critical for placing a shot very precisely, such as hitting the X ring or ensuring the shot lands less than 1 MOA from the point aim but plays little role for placing the shot inside, say an 8 inch circle within 200 yards

[rackham1]

I agree with these guys 100% but want to highlight the value of cheekweld for consistent shooting even in a non-high-precision-required context.

There's a good chance that the guy who got zealous about "no cheekweld required" is a sloppy shooter and the eotech hides bad fundamentals. Early in my carbine training I switched to irons-only halfway through one particular class. The instructor used the MEU(SOC) qualification course as this class's yardstick and right off the bat my score went up 10% while still staying within time. I realized pretty quickly that a loose cheekweld with my RDS was causing me to search for the dot and pop off shots when out of alignment. Confidence in the RDS let me slack on fundamentals. In subsequent classes I focused on shooting the RDS as tightly as I would with irons and I found a big improvement.

The RDS is good because you don't need a consistent cheekweld and can therefore accommodate less-than-ideal positions (from the ground, behind barricade, one-handed, etc.). But with "easy" shooting a consistent cheekweld on an RDS only helps.

[Split66]

Ah........ and here I thought it was the burning feeling left on my cheek after the I Mod ripped all my whiskers out.........

[rackham1]

Ah........ and here I thought it was the burning feeling left on my cheek after the I Mod ripped all my whiskers out.........

There's that too! Good cheekweld facilitates "field expedient razor" depending on stock model.

[Atg336]

I agree with rackham1.

Properly training with irons forces one to have a degree of hardwired discipline that is a must for consistent accuracy and developing speed in your weapon handling. As Larry Vickers says, "Speed is fine - Accuracy is final."

You carry over this same discipline in using your RDS. In a combat situation, aside from a great many other stresses, you hardly ever have ideal positions from where to engage the enemy and there is a breakdown in your shooting skill set, with the least enforced training the first to go. For most people accuracy is a first one to go.

RDS sights fill in the gap where an ideal back and front sight alignment is not possible or exposes you to the enemy too much. You will still need the fundamentals enforced in irons only training to hit the enemy consistently though.

[Tzook]

I think it's important that cheekweld is consistent and repeatable. However, I also think cheekweld is a pretty subjective thing. If you prefer the cheekweld of a SOPMOD, great. If a CTR works for you, also great. Just get what's comfortable for you.

[rackham1]

I agree with rackham1.

Properly training with irons forces one to have a degree of hardwired discipline that is a must for consistent accuracy and developing speed in your weapon handling. As Larry Vickers says, "Speed is fine - Accuracy is final."

You carry over this same discipline in using your RDS. In a combat situation, aside from a great many other stresses, you hardly ever have ideal positions from where to engage the enemy and there is a breakdown in your shooting skill set, with the least enforced training the first to go. For most people accuracy is a first one to go.

RDS sights fill in the gap where an ideal back and front sight alignment is not possible or exposes you to the enemy too much. You will still need the fundamentals enforced in irons only training to hit the enemy consistently though.

Exactly what I meant but much better said! Thanks.

[MistWolf]

A consistent cheekweld allows the shooter to get on target faster and be more accuarate, regardless of what type of sights are used. It will allow the shooter to be on target in the event the sight heads south for the duration

[Failure2Stop]

Solid cheek weld also keeps the head and eye in position behind the optic, allowing the shooter to be able track the sights through the string, as well as reducing recoil by providing another point of connection to the carbine.

Good cheek weld is a fundamental aspect of carbine/rifle marksmanship.


Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

[Arctic1]

Ideally, a proper cheekweld should not be achived through a deliberate step; ie the head should not move when mounting the gun. When you are in your stance, and you are bringing your gun up towards the target, your head and body should be in a position so that your rifle stops with the sights in the correct place and the stock hits your cheek.

For me personally, the cheekweld aspect of marksmanship is something that evolved into a "feel"; I just know that my head is in the correct spot when I feel the gun hit my cheek. This is both for irons and red dots.

With magnified optics, I feel it takes a wee bit more conscious effort to get it right, but when using the same gun with the same optic over an extended periode of time it falls into place more naturally.

Regarding the fundamentals of a good shooting platform, be it standing, kneeling or prone, sure you might not always be able to apply every single aspect. But you can get away with not applying a few properly, and still make good hits.

Regarding the statement about hardly ever having an ideal position to engage from, I think it is a bit broad; it is very situationally dependent. And from my own experience, guys don't fail to apply fundamentals, as much as they fail to use available support for their gun.
I believe that is why people often end up in awkward or unstable shooting postions, not because they don't fully grasp the funtamentals. Or a bigger contributing factor, at least.

[Redhat]

Ideally, a proper cheekweld should not be achived through a deliberate step; ie the head should not move when mounting the gun. When you are in your stance, and you are bringing your gun up towards the target, your head and body should be in a position so that your rifle stops with the sights in the correct place and the stock hits your cheek.

For me personally, the cheekweld aspect of marksmanship is something that evolved into a "feel"; I just know that my head is in the correct spot when I feel the gun hit my cheek. This is both for irons and red dots.

With magnified optics, I feel it takes a wee bit more conscious effort to get it right, but when using the same gun with the same optic over an extended periode of time it falls into place more naturally.

Regarding the fundamentals of a good shooting platform, be it standing, kneeling or prone, sure you might not always be able to apply every single aspect. But you can get away with not applying a few properly, and still make good hits.

Regarding the statement about hardly ever having an ideal position to engage from, I think it is a bit broad; it is very situationally dependent. And from my own experience, guys don't fail to apply fundamentals, as much as they fail to use available support for their gun.
I believe that is why people often end up in awkward or unstable shooting postions, not because they don't fully grasp the funtamentals. Or a bigger contributing factor, at least.

How did you learn it in the beginning, when you started shooting?

[halfmoonclip]

The biggest impediment to a good and repeatable cheek weld are shooting muffs.
With plugs instead, you don't have the muff bells in the way; the straight AR stock is just not compatible with having anything bulky over your ears.
Moon

[Arctic1]

How did you learn it in the beginning, when you started shooting?

I learned how to shoot on a G3, that only had irons.

We use 8 elements that make up a steady firing position:

Nonfiring hand grip on handguard
Nonfiring elbow on ground for skeletal support
Buttstock positioning in shoulder (placed in the pocket)
Cheekweld (cheek resting lightly on stock)
Firing hand grip on pistol grip
Firing elbow on ground for skeletal support
Breathing
Muscle relaxation

We really harped on this during dry fire.

Another factor that plays an important role in developing the feel for a proper cheek weld is sight alignment/sight picture. Especially when using irons, learning what correct sight alignment looked like was very important in this regard. You learned where to place your head on the stock in order to achieve proper sight alignment.

By combining sight alignment/sight picture with the elements of a steady firing position, getting your proper cheekweld becomes pretty natural.

[Arctic1]

The biggest impediment to a good and repeatable cheek weld are shooting muffs.
With plugs instead, you don't have the muff bells in the way; the straight AR stock is just not compatible with having anything bulky over your ears.
Moon

I cannot agree with this.

I have used electronic hearing protection for most of my career, worn in concjuction with a helmet, and it works fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0yP8dbKSBA

[Redhat]

I learned how to shoot on a G3, that only had irons.

We use 8 elements that make up a steady firing position:

Nonfiring hand grip on handguard
Nonfiring elbow on ground for skeletal support
Buttstock positioning in shoulder (placed in the pocket)
Cheekweld (cheek resting lightly on stock)
Firing hand grip on pistol grip
Firing elbow on ground for skeletal support
Breathing
Muscle relaxation

We really harped on this during dry fire.

Another factor that plays an important role in developing the feel for a proper cheek weld is sight alignment/sight picture. Especially when using irons, learning what correct sight alignment looked like was very important in this regard. You learned where to place your head on the stock in order to achieve proper sight alignment.

By combining sight alignment/sight picture with the elements of a steady firing position, getting your proper cheekweld becomes pretty natural.

I also started with iron sights except on the M16 and with the elements you listed with a couple of exceptions, use of bone support was covered in other positions also.

Anyway, regarding cheek weld or stock weld, I was taught and later taught others that stock weld is used to grip /support the weapon and establish eye relief. We taught new shooters to place two fingers between the tip of their nose and the back of the charging handle as one way to establish consistent eye relief. Now, we didn't insist on this as it was just a starting point. Recommendations were anywhere between this distance and touching the charging handle...the emphasis remained on being consistent...in all positions.

The second part was to place the chin on top of the stock and roll the face down until your eye is looking through the rear sight. The top of the stock should be snug under the cheek bone. New trainees practiced placing their face on the stock then checked eye relief. If it wasn't correct, they broke stock weld, adjusted and did it again until they knew what it should look like and feel like.

[scoutchris]

I have always defaulted to the nose to charging handle technique. This was how I was taught in 2005 at Ft. Knox in OSUT, it was what was taught to us during a 8 day course given to a select group of us by some Navy Personel that can swim real good, and it was what was taught to us by the ODA that lived on our COP for 6 months in Iraq... If it looks like a duck...

[DMViergever]

I always go nose to charging handle also. There is also a natural pivot point yu get used to when going from hanging or low ready to the ready position that you learn to develop. For me cheek weld is far more important when shooting irons, magnified or precision in general. Once i go from doubletap to controlled pair cheek weld becomes more important as distance is increasing.

[T2C]

As long as your head is in the same spot behind the sights or sighting device every time you present your carbine toward the target you will have consistent eye relief and you are good to go.

I shoot nose to charging handle with both iron sights and optics. I also try to make a conscious effort to not cant my head and keep it level with the sights. If I cant my rifle 30 degrees to the right, I cant my head 30 degrees to the right and so on.

[Arctic1]

I couldn't shoot nose to charging handle even if my life depended on it. Never gotten the hang of it. ;)

I understand that the technique allows for consistency in eye relief, but I don't see how it correlates to getting a proper cheekweld.

As you can see in the video I posted above, I maintain a cheek weld, but not anywhere near nose to charging handle.


I also started with iron sights except on the M16 and with the elements you listed with a couple of exceptions, use of bone support was covered in other positions also.

True, bone support will differ between prone, and when sitting, kneeling or standing. My description was for the basic prone position, as most people learn to shoot that way first.

[T2C]

I couldn't shoot nose to charging handle even if my life depended on it. Never gotten the hang of it. ;)

I understand that the technique allows for consistency in eye relief, but I don't see how it correlates to getting a proper cheekweld.

As you can see in the video I posted above, I maintain a cheek weld, but not anywhere near nose to charging handle.



True, bone support will differ between prone, and when sitting, kneeling or standing. My description was for the basic prone position, as most people learn to shoot that way first.

I think the key is "consistent" cheekweld. I believe paying close attention to head tilt and yaw are also important.

If I could not shoot nose to charging handle due to issued equipment or my physical build, I would put a piece of velcro on the buttstock and index my cheek on it every time I presented the rifle toward the target.

[Arctic1]

I believe paying close attention to head tilt and yaw are also important.

Agreed, and what I tried to explain in my first post, ref bringing the gun up to your LOS and head.

Not really a good angle for cheekweld, but it illustrates what I mean about only moving the gun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGP1t-qn6po

And I agree that a consistent cheek weld is important when shooting optics that require a certain eye-relief. For an RDS it's not that important. It's not like you are going to be all over the place with your head either, hopefully.

[marinecorpsmike]

Great thread with alot of positive, accurate information. Thanks

[halfmoonclip]

I cannot agree with this.

I have used electronic hearing protection for most of my career, worn in concjuction with a helmet, and it works fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0yP8dbKSBA

The subject of the video was using an optic.
I have never been able to get my head into the right position to use the OEM iron sights if I'm using muffs.
YMMV
Moon

[sboza]

Solid cheek weld also keeps the head and eye in position behind the optic, allowing the shooter to be able track the sights through the string, as well as reducing recoil by providing another point of connection to the carbine.

Good cheek weld is a fundamental aspect of carbine/rifle marksmanship.


Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

I agree with everything you said other than the importance of the cheek weld for recoil management. It plays a small role but it's a one percenter IMHO.

I wanted to add that I do believe that it is a good idea for a new shooter to use tape (or whatever) to try and develop consistency with their cheek weld but some people take it too far. Your cheek weld will change slightly depending on your body position and that is alright.

The way I train:

I consider my cheek weld in the standing position the most important because the probability of having to shoot quickly from a given ready position is crucial (cqb distances). So I train with my buis and optic to create as consistent a cheek weld as possible. This way I know that the second my head makes contact with the stock, I am sighted onto a threat at cqb distances and is my indicator that I am ready to shoot (actually well before but that but retention/point shooting techniques at cqb distances are another topic). This makes for a much faster and accurate first round hit and because everything was lined up properly the first time (requires repetition and training), follow-up shots are easier to track because the dot is going to be right where I expect it to be (or acceptably close).

Of course the shooter must always be prepared to slow their set time and take the extra .25 or .5 (or more) seconds to make that low percentage shot. Speed is never a substitute for accuracy. The ability to adjust speed to the level of accuracy required to get the hit is the difference between average and exceptional.

As for prone, kneeling, and any other variation/funky body position, it is much less likely that you will adopt that stance if you didn't have a few seconds to do so. I am not advocating being slow but a extra .25 seconds to line up your shot is not the end of the world. Of course, in the real world there are surprises and unexpected events/ambushes so we need to train these various positions for speed and accuracy. It's just that chances are that accuracy will be more important at the distances and scenarios during which one would adopt these stances over blazing fast speed. So I train accordingly with a combination of speed and accuracy drills.

Hope that helps.

P.S. And remember that the kit you wear will affect your cheek weld also. For example, fully geared up with a gas mask requires (for most masks I have used) canting the rifle and finding a consistent place where the gun can, ideally, make consistent contact. And of course canting the gun requires keeping in mind not only your barrel sight alignment for low % targets at cqb distances, but also the angle. So things can get complicated. The key is repetition and training.

[TehLlama]

Solid cheek weld also keeps the head and eye in position behind the optic, allowing the shooter to be able track the sights through the string, as well as reducing recoil by providing another point of connection to the carbine.

Good cheek weld is a fundamental aspect of carbine/rifle marksmanship.


This is something a lot of carbine classes are virtually guaranteed to drive home as useful information for attendees - if you'd doing it right shooting around a barricade from some god-awful position, the first round will be on target, but just seeing how quickly even the giant 65MOA EOcircle wandered off made it really obvious to me that whenever possible, I want 4 consistent points of contact on the rifle.

The EOTechs and Aimpoints shine when you can't necessarily get that good cheek weld (just dig through the AAR section for pictures, and see some of the crazy barricade positions that are bad for shooting but necessary if two-way traffic ever becomes a reality. But whenever the opportunity presents itself to get a clean presentation with a good cheek weld, you'll be quicker ON target, more confident breaking that first shot, and mostly more quickly back on target for the next round if needed.

[ForTehNguyen]

I am having difficulty finding a stock that will give me a proper cheek weld. Magpul ACS/STR do not work, dig into my cheekbone too much, and cants my head. What my problem is the height of the stock is a bit too low and have the eotech reticle as close to the center as possible. If I did dig my cheek into a standard stock the right way the reticle is almost hitting the bottom edge of the sight picture. I did use the Larue Tactical RISR attachment for a while but it seems too high, with the reticle hitting near the top of the eotech sight picture. The RISR raises the height by about .7" they said. I need something about .5" but I dont think a product like that exists. I need about .25-.5" higher on the stock to have good cheek support and have the reticle as close to the center as possible.

[JSantoro]

On the basis of the idea that raw height is what you truly need, this may not help, but in terms of what you said about stocks with a top shaped similar to the SOPMOD tilting your head...

The storage compartments on the VLTOR stocks create that sort of surface. When I was still scruntching up on the gun (one detent out on the stock, all the time), it'd position my head catty-wampus, too. I thought I needed height, as well...until I took the storage compartments off of an IMod stock.

It struck what was a perfect balance for me between a standard M4/CTR/MOE stock and the SOPMOD shapes (CAVEAT: once I started adding length to the stock, angles changed, and I now use a straight-up SOPMOD without issue...). The angle of the top was still there, but didn't even go 1/2 as far outboard as it did with storage in place, which made all the difference at the time, without the need for a riser of some sort.

If you've already tried VLTOR stocks, and found them wanting...I just wasted your time. ;)