Is Ted Cruz Helping Or Hurting Our Cause?

[Safetyhit]

My gut tells me he should let it go. The ACA (Obamacare) seems destined to implode sooner than later, yet he and some others feel the need to subvert this likely outcome for whatever reason at the potential expense of the already weakened Republican Party.

Why not just let it play out at the demise of the democrats? What practical victory does he seek?

[Gutshot John]

Well first rule of politics is that when your enemy is stepping on his own dick, let him.

Obamacare is hugely unpopular, and only likely to get more so. I say let the Democrats own it.

As for Ted Cruz...time will tell, my sense though is that he's going for the inside straight. He might pull it off, but he's oversold his capability to deliver a victory.

Similarly my sense is that this is the "Ted Cruz show" and more about his political ambition than conservative principles.

I've said it before, it doesn't matter which politician you vote for, they're still politicians. Ergo when they open their mouths they're lying.

[Pork Chop]

Implosion of Obamacare will result in single payer system, which was always the underlying goal, so how is doing everything possible to make a stand hurting the cause?

I'd personally support him if he was trying to block Obama from eating a Twinkie. Block him on every issue at every possible avenue and hopefully prevent any further damage to our country.

[Gutshot John]

Implosion of Obamacare will result in single payer system, which was always the underlying goal, so how is doing everything possible to make a stand hurting the cause?

There is nothing in the ACA that says if "Obamacare" fails, we get a single payer system? To do that, they'd have to pass another law (extremely unlikely), so I'm not sure I follow your logic.


I'd personally support him if he was trying to block Obama from eating a Twinkie. Block him on every issue at every possible avenue and hopefully prevent any further damage to our country.

You're kidding yourself if you think Obama is the only "problem child" in Washington. Half of the "problem children" are on the right side of the aisle.

It's not the man, it's the system that's broken.

[Pork Chop]

There is nothing in the ACA that says if "Obamacare" fails, we get a single payer system? To do that, they'd have to pass another law, so I'm not sure I follow your logic.



You're kidding yourself if you think Obama is the only "problem child" in Washington. Half of the "problem children" are on the right side of the aisle.

It's not the man, it's the system that's broken.
If they implode the system do you believe they just yell "mulligan" and reset the scoreboard? It will mean an insurance industry in shambles and the .gov will argue that single payer was always the answer. I hope I'm wrong, but I see it going that way.

And I agree with you 100%, but Obama has done a ton of damage and will do more, so for the time being I'd settle for a tourniquet to stop the bleeding.
I actually hope for gridlock at this point, because at least they aren't making it worse.

[gunrunner505]

It's not the man, it's the system that's broken.

This is very true, to a point.

While the system is broken, perhaps irretrievably, the types of individuals that seek office are certainly not helping. The desire to serve the public trust and do the peoples work evaporated long ago. It has been replaced with one question, how can I get rich? We need a higher level of character in the people that are awarded and retain office.....

[Gutshot John]

If they implode the system do you believe they just yell "mulligan" and reset the scoreboard? It will mean an insurance industry in shambles and the .gov will argue that single payer was always the answer. I hope I'm wrong, but I see it going that way.

You don't just get to call a "mulligan" and get instant single-payer system. You have to go through the whole legislative process again to get to that point (extremely unlikely).

Ted Cruz doesn't strike me as a tourniquet, more like treatment with leeches.

[Gutshot John]

This is very true, to a point.

While the system is broken, perhaps irretrievably, the types of individuals that seek office are certainly not helping. The desire to serve the public trust and do the peoples work evaporated long ago. It has been replaced with one question, how can I get rich? We need a higher level of character in the people that are awarded and retain office.....

Winner!

[Pork Chop]

You don't just get to call a "mulligan" and get instant single-payer system. You have to go through the whole legislative process again to get to that point (extremely unlikely).

Ted Cruz doesn't strike me as a tourniquet, more like treatment with leeches.

The same legislative process that got us Obamacare? The same one that shoved a law down our collective throat that 2/3 of the country opposed?

You're trusting the same system you just claimed was broken.

[Iraqgunz]

Someone has to stand up to these other worthless oxygen thieves. If anyone doesn't think for a minute that WHEN the insurance/healthcare system collapses the gov't won't step in, you are dreaming. They will justify it just like everything they have done.

Wait until Obamacare kicks in, and the job cuts start and things get worse. It's going to happen.

[Belmont31R]

If not now then when? After it's destroyed any semblance of private health care?

[TacticalSledgehammer]

I see a shutdown coming. McCain and other Republican senators are not siding with their party in the House. None of the dems will vote to defund it. Plus Obama will veto it.
I did see Rand Paul on tv yesterday saying the next thing in the works is making everyone including congress and obama get obamacare. I'd like to see how they react to that!

[Iraqgunz]

Do you honestly think they will vote on something that makes them equal? How many years were they exempt from "insider trading" only to pass a bill preventing it and then gut it out while we were asleep?

Congress will never enact legislation that is not to their benefit.


I see a shutdown coming. McCain and other Republican senators are not siding with their party in the House. None of the dems will vote to defund it. Plus Obama will veto it.
I did see Rand Paul on tv yesterday saying the next thing in the works is making everyone including congress and obama get obamacare. I'd like to see how they react to that!

[polymorpheous]

The Republican Party is weak not because of men like Cruz, Lee, and Paul.
It is weak because they lack the testicular fortitude to stand against the Liberals.
Too long the Liberals have controlled dialogue, controlled language.
The Republicans fear the left.
So the GOP has been moving further to the left.
McCain and Romney are both Statists.
The GOP is the cause of its own demise.

[Iraqgunz]

This is my "Facebook Like" icon.


The Republican Party is weak not because of men like Cruz, Lee, and Paul.
It is weak because they lack the testicular fortitude to stand against the Liberals.
Too long the Liberals have controlled dialogue, controlled language.
The Republicans fear the left.
So the GOP has been moving further to the left.
McCain and Romney are both Statists.
The GOP is the cause of its own demise.

[TacticalSledgehammer]

Do you honestly think they will vote on something that makes them equal? How many years were they exempt from "insider trading" only to pass a bill preventing it and then gut it out while we were asleep?

Congress will never enact legislation that is not to their benefit.

But isn't it a warm and fuzzy thought though? LOL

[Safetyhit]

Posted this thread looking for answers and sure enough there they were when I woke up. Very interesting, primarily the concerns about a default-like single payer system or the destruction of the private health care industry.

Would love to comment on those concerns but honestly don't know enough about their validity to do so with any effectiveness. Still I somehow never realized that the damage may be both done and also permanent.

[Gutshot John]

The same legislative process that got us Obamacare? The same one that shoved a law down our collective throat that 2/3 of the country opposed?

Opposition is higher now than it was then...likewise they had the majority in the house then, which they don't now.


You're trusting the same system you just claimed was broken.

System? a majority is a majority. Democrats won't have control of all both houses of legislative/executive again for another generation, they blew it that badly and they're likely to lose the Senate in 2014...unless Ted Cruz blows it, which is looking quite likely (think 4th and 45 on your own 10 yard line...and going for it).

That said, I "trust" politicians to act like the venal scum that they are. I "trust" in a politician's ambition to get re-elected. If a single-payer system was introduced now, Democrats would run the other way.

If you think Ted Cruz gives a rip about anything other than Ted Cruz, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. This is about his ambitions, he doesn't actually want Obamacare to go away, he wants to use it as an issue to get the nomination.

If you believe otherwise than you haven't been paying attention.

If Ted Cruz really cared about getting rid of Obamacare he'd be looking for a way to become the majority in the Senate, if he wanted to make a symbolic/principled stand, he'd introduce legislation to either delay obamacare's implementation as well as applying it to every member of the Federal government and legislative branch. Both would easily succeed, have a practical economic/political effect, and give more time to eliminate Obamacare before it gets implemented.

[ABNAK]

If not now then when? After it's destroyed any semblance of private health care?

Yeah, Obamacare is unpopular. BUT.......the amount of people getting their healthcare subsidized under the ACA is staggering. It far outnumbers (vote-wise) those who have to pay for it all because they're over the income limit. So, if Obamacare collapses the insurance industry and the cry goes out for single payer the votes are there come election time to reinforce any pols who vote for it. While it will indeed require new legislation don't think for a minute that it couldn't pass.

Remember, few thought Obama would get reelected either.

Oh, Ted Cruz is the man! IMHO he is the future of the Republican Party......or whatever entity replaces it ;)

[ABNAK]

The Republican Party is weak not because of men like Cruz, Lee, and Paul.
It is weak because they lack the testicular fortitude to stand against the Liberals.
Too long the Liberals have controlled dialogue, controlled language.
The Republicans fear the left.
So the GOP has been moving further to the left.
McCain and Romney are both Statists.
The GOP is the cause of its own demise.

Spot on!

Never allow the enemy (and yes, the Dems/libs are the enemy) to frame the debate.

[Belmont31R]

I just want to know why Republicans are always the ones who have to roll over and vote for the Dem programs. I can't believe how crappy the GOP is at message.

[ABNAK]

Democrats won't have control of all both houses of legislative/executive again for another generation, they blew it that badly.


Never underestimate the stupidity of the electorate. You have much more faith than I do.

[Pork Chop]

Never underestimate the stupidity of the electorate. You have much more faith than I do.

This.

[Belmont31R]

Yeah, Obamacare is unpopular. BUT.......the amount of people getting their healthcare subsidized under the ACA is staggering. It far outnumbers (vote-wise) those who have to pay for it all because they're over the income limit. So, if Obamacare collapses the insurance industry and the cry goes out for single payer the votes are there come election time to reinforce any pols who vote for it. While it will indeed require new legislation don't think for a minute that it couldn't pass.

Remember, few thought Obama would get reelected either.

Oh, Ted Cruz is the man! IMHO he is the future of the Republican Party......or whatever entity replaces it ;)


I fully believe Obamacare was designed to get us single payer. Yes, new legislation, but it will be done. Oct 1 is the day that process starts. There have been a ton of people getting insurance cancellation notices this month and they're being told to go get insurance in the exchanges.

[Gutshot John]

Never underestimate the stupidity of the electorate. You have much more faith than I do.

Never underestimate the stupidity of politicians to hand their opposition the ammo they need to deceive the electorate. Ted Cruz may get "tactical" satisfaction here, but he doesn't have a clue about strategy.

That said, people get the government they deserve. Oh well. Let them suck on Obamacare for a while and see it work out.

[ABNAK]

That said, people get the government they deserve.

Well, to be more precise: 100% of the people get the government that 52% deserve.

[Gutshot John]

Well, to be more precise: 100% of the people get the government that 52% deserve.

Nope. If you're (the royal you) supporting the ambitions of those that are cutting your throat for emotional satisfaction, all the while pretending that they are somehow principled in their actions, than your ignorance is part of the problem as well.

[ABNAK]

Nope. If you're (the royal you) supporting the ambitions of those that are cutting your throat for emotional satisfaction, all the while pretending that they are somehow principled in their actions, than your ignorance is part of the problem as well.

I was referring to the election results last year.

I have long ago dropped the veil of "nobility" when viewing politics in this country. Democracy is still the best form of government out there but Jeez, it can be annoying (and self-destructive) as hell.

Oh, I don't see the actions of the other side as "principled". I see them as self-serving and hazardous.

[Gutshot John]

I was referring to the election results last year. Noted but a lot of it was Republican recklessness and stupidity.


I have long ago dropped the veil of "nobility" when viewing politics in this country. Democracy is still the best form of government out there but Jeez, it can be annoying (and self-destructive) as hell.

As a wise man once noted...it's the worst form of government known to man...except for everything else.

[ABNAK]

As a wise man once noted...it's the worst form of government known to man...except for everything else.

Ain't that the truth!

[Pork Chop]

Opposition is higher now than it was then...likewise they had the majority in the house then, which they don't now.



System? a majority is a majority. Democrats won't have control of all both houses of legislative/executive again for another generation, they blew it that badly and they're likely to lose the Senate in 2014...unless Ted Cruz blows it, which is looking quite likely (think 4th and 45 on your own 10 yard line...and going for it).

That said, I "trust" politicians to act like the venal scum that they are. I "trust" in a politician's ambition to get re-elected. If a single-payer system was introduced now, Democrats would run the other way.

If you think Ted Cruz gives a rip about anything other than Ted Cruz, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. This is about his ambitions, he doesn't actually want Obamacare to go away, he wants to use it as an issue to get the nomination.

If you believe otherwise than you haven't been paying attention.

If Ted Cruz really cared about getting rid of Obamacare he'd be looking for a way to become the majority in the Senate, if he wanted to make a symbolic/principled stand, he'd introduce legislation to either delay obamacare's implementation as well as applying it to every member of the Federal government and legislative branch. Both would easily succeed, have a practical economic/political effect, and give more time to eliminate Obamacare before it gets implemented.

You are confusing "Pork Chop endorses Ted Cruz" with "Pork Chop thinks Cruz is another sleazy politician but he happens to be doing something I agree with". Self serving or not, there needs to be a stand against this.

Now, I'm done arguing the single-payer outcome because I firmly believe what I said and apparently so do you, so let's agree to revisit this subject after Obamacare implodes under its own weight and one of us can enjoy a tasty plate of crow.

If its me, I'll man up and admit I was wrong, but I'm telling you, single-payer was always the goal. Obamacare was just the roadmap to get there.

[Gutshot John]

You are confusing "Pork Chop endorses Ted Cruz" with "Pork Chop thinks Cruz is another sleazy politician but he happens to be doing something I agree with". Self serving or not, there needs to be a stand against this.

I agree there needs to be a stand, but I see no strategic virtue in a political Alamo.

He is handing Democrats exactly what they want.


If its me, I'll man up and admit I was wrong, but I'm telling you, single-payer was always the goal. Obamacare was just the roadmap to get there.

I do believe it was the goal, I don't believe Democrats anticipated the virulent opposition to the law. That miscalculation doomed any single-payer effort...assuming republicans don't screw the pooch.

[Belmont31R]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/24/one-man-obamacare-nightmare/

[Belmont31R]

For accuracy we are a republic not a democracy.

[Gutshot John]

For accuracy we are a republic not a democracy.

For accuracy a Republic (with capital R) is a form of democracy (with a small D).

What is a Republic?

A representative democracy is still a form of democracy.

[Pork Chop]

I agree there needs to be a stand, but I see no strategic virtue in a political Alamo.

He is handing Democrats exactly what they want.



I do believe it was the goal, I don't believe Democrats anticipated the virulent opposition to the law. That miscalculation doomed any single-payer effort...assuming republicans don't screw the pooch.

Fair enough, but I see the health care industry absolutely decimated after this. Insurance companies destroyed. Hell, my own policy is doubling in premium, so I can see how this only works so long as the subsidies we'll all be forced to apply for keep coming. What happens in a few years if the start scaling back those subsidies? They've put themselves into a position to have the power to control that virulent opposition by squeezing our budget with those subsidies.

Most can't afford the new costs without the subsidy, so if they pull that back in the future, but still require you to carry coverage or pay heavy penalties, how many of the average citizens you know will be so resistant to a new, wonderful program that takes all the pain and stress away?

Don't worry citizen, we'll take care of you without the stress and struggle you're dealing with at the hands of the rich, greedy Doctors and hospitals and those evil insurance companies reaping ridiculous profits while you struggle to make ends meet. It's just not fair, citizen. Let us take that all away. And remember, if you like your Doctor, you can keep your Doctor. (Just like we told you you could keep your current insurance plan)

These ****ers are playing the game 20 steps ahead.

[Belmont31R]

For accuracy a Republic (with capital R) is a form of democracy (with a small D).

What is a Republic?

A representative democracy is still a form of democracy.

But the two are very different. I don't care if a republic is a form of democracy. A democracy is mob rule and shouldn't be interchanged with a representative republic.

[Gutshot John]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/24/one-man-obamacare-nightmare/

Yep, hit people in their pocketbook and see the Democrats get voted out of office.

I know many liberals who are starting to go "wtf did we do?"

Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing.

[Gutshot John]

But the two are very different. I don't care if a republic is a form of democracy. A democracy is mob rule and shouldn't be interchanged with a representative republic.

Incorrect a Democracy is form of government of where the people vote on EVERYTHING.

A Republic is a democratic form of government where the people vote for people to represent their interests.

By definition Republics are representative, so saying "representative republic" is redundant.

[Gutshot John]

If you want to be realllly technical, the USA is a Federated Constitutional Republic.

[Belmont31R]

Incorrect a Democracy is form of government of where the people vote on EVERYTHING.

A Republic is a democratic form of government where the people vote for people to represent their interests.

By definition Republics are representative, so saying "representative republic" is redundant.

Yes, the people voting on everything is mob rule.

Republic and democracy are not interchangeable.

[Safetyhit]

Thought this discussion was about Ted Cruz and defunding the ACA?

Anyway at this point while some sensible arguments have been made to the contrary I say let it implode, stand on the high ground and govern from there in the aftermath. The dems will look horrible and the people will be pissed, costs are rising sharply anyway so how much worse could it get in that regard?

[Gutshot John]

Yes, the people voting on everything is mob rule.

Republic and democracy are not interchangeable.

Not all democracies are Republics, but all Republics are democracies, just not with a capital D.

[Belmont31R]

Thought this discussion was about Ted Cruz and defunding the ACA?

Anyway at this point while some sensible arguments have been made to the contrary I say let it implode, stand on the high ground and govern from there in the aftermath. The dems will look horrible and the people will be pissed, costs are rising sharply anyway so how much worse could it get in that regard?


People have been saying the same thing for years and look at where we are at. Once something of this magnitude goes into effect there's little chance of going back. I can't really think of any major entitlement program that was repealed out of existence. Instead they get expanded and we get to fight the dems about it for eternity. If we try to take it away or even reform things we're portrayed as killing granny or taking food out of a child's mouth.

People are fools if they think we'll ever get a majority that can actually cut back on a lot of this stuff. Even when republicans had Congress and the executive, they expanded social entitlements. The argument the dems made against Part D was that the bill didn't go far enough.

Cruz is just an easy target for these RINOs to hide behind their own acceptance of Obama's crowning achievement, and there's ZERO reason to believe they will ever actually repeal it in the future. Once people are on that sustem it's going to be impossible to quit. They haven't fought it since it was enacted and it's way harder to fight it once it's fully implemented.

[Gutshot John]

Thought this discussion was about Ted Cruz and defunding the ACA?

Anyway at this point while some sensible arguments have been made to the contrary I say let it implode, stand on the high ground and govern from there in the aftermath. The dems will look horrible and the people will be pissed, costs are rising sharply anyway so how much worse could it get in that regard?

100% agree...more to the point, the burden it will place will likely cause medicare/SS to implode as well.

Great opportunity for a reset...if it's played smartly.

As for it going back after it's implemented...1. Republicans can certainly muster support on both sides of the aisle to DELAY it further; and 2. SS/Medicare were both wildly popular and passed in a bipartisan fashion - Obamacare wasn't. Apples and oranges.

[Pork Chop]

Great opportunity for a reset...if it's played smartly.

While I agree, that's one hell of a gamble considering who will be handling the "reset".

I would not trust anything to be played smartly, but rather in a way that garners the most votes for their party, regardless of the damage done.

[Belmont31R]

While I agree, that's one hell of a gamble considering who will be handling the "reset".

I would not trust anything to be played smartly, but rather in a way that garners the most votes for their party, regardless of the damage done.


Exactly. Saying something big will come out this that is good, ie a much reduced gov foot print in medicine and entitlements is absurd. Big gov is here to stay because that's what the majority of both parties want. They are two sides of the same coin who squabble about details when in the big picture gov has grown massively under both parties.

[Gutshot John]

While I agree, that's one hell of a gamble considering who will be handling the "reset".

No gamble, medicare/SS are there anyways, worst case is that they stay in place. Obamacare is widely viewed as doomed, even Democrats are starting to realize it. Republicans just have to give them the room to admit it. Stupidly the GOP is forcing them into a lose-lose, instead of letting them gracefully bow out.


I would not trust anything to be played smartly, but rather in a way that garners the most votes for their party, regardless of the damage done.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/66fa5a738a3f24e39985084eafe7b203/tumblr_mpcrsy3KnT1swb8m1o1_500.gif

[Safetyhit]

Exactly. Saying something big will come out this that is good, ie a much reduced gov foot print in medicine and entitlements is absurd. Big gov is here to stay because that's what the majority of both parties want. They are two sides of the same coin who squabble about details when in the big picture gov has grown massively under both parties.

Belmont while I won't argue that the Republican Party is fantastic as is it still advocates far less government overall than the democrats. Their whole agenda is government taking care of you and this is simply not the case with Republicans despite their many imperfections.

[Belmont31R]

Belmont while I won't argue that the Republican Party is fantastic as is it still advocates far less government overall than the democrats. Their whole agenda is government taking care of you and this is simply not the case with Republicans despite their many imperfections.

Less but still big gov.

[brickboy240]

You are going to see big media AND establishment GOP'ers trash Ted Cruz.

However...nope...he is not hurting our "cause" in fact I'd say we need more Ted Cruzs and LESS John McCains, Lindsay Grahams and John Boehners.

You want real change in America and the republic restored? It will be done by people like Ted Cruz, Mike Lee and Rand Paul.

The GOP establishment will forever trash the Tea Party types, because they are a threat to the establishment. The inside RNC biggies do not want to change, reform or transform a damn thing.

Ted Cruz is up there trying to get rid of a piece of legislation that 60-70% of Americans say they do not want and most of the GOP establishment voted against. Big media hates Cruz and will forever trash him and anyone like him.

Once you understand the players and how they work...you will not see Cruz and his cohorts as a threat...but the only hope we truly have.

-brickboy240

[Gutshot John]

You are going to see big media AND establishment GOP'ers trash Ted Cruz.

However...nope...he is not hurting our "cause" in fact I'd say we need more Ted Cruzs and LESS John McCains, Lindsay Grahams and John Boehners.

He needs a lot more than that...namely a veto-proof majority.

If he really wanted a victory on Obamacare, he'd introduce language making Senators/Congressman eat their own dogfood. Likewise he'd delay implementation until there is a sizable enough majority to defeat it.

You're kidding yourself if you think Cruz is doing this for anyone other than Cruz. He's playing a short-term game for political ambition at the expense of the long-term strategy that might actually get rid of the legislation in question.


You want real change in America and the republic restored? It will be done by people like Ted Cruz, Mike Lee and Rand Paul.

Bullpuckey...if you are waiting for politicians to come save you, you've already lost.


The GOP establishment will forever trash the Tea Party types, because they are a threat to the establishment. The inside RNC biggies do not want to change, reform or transform a damn thing.

While true to some degree, Tea Party types need to learn how to govern, and understand basic Machiavellian principles...namely that you need to be in power to affect power. All the principles don't do you a lick of good if you can't gain enough votes to support them.

You're kidding yourself if you think the Tea Party caucus is there for any reason other than their own ambition. It's a basic law of politics.

See Federalist #10 (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed10.asp)

It seems that most tea partiers have never bothered to read it.


Once you understand the players and how they work...you will not see Cruz and his cohorts as a threat...but the only hope we truly have.

-brickboy240

I don't view them as a threat, well at least I don't view them as any more of a threat than any other politician.

Your faith in these people disturbs me as it signals that Americans still haven't learned that we are a reflection of those we put in power.

If you're waiting for Cruz etc to save you...don't hold your breath.

Politicians are concerned with one thing...re-election.

Don't kid yourself.

[brickboy240]

Well, I have ZERO faith in the GOP establishment and the RNC insiders like Karl Rove, Bill Kristol and Rience Priebus.

With those bozos....we will forever be a minority party that loses every time because they cannot let the issues of abortion and gay marriage alone.

Majority? Well..we have to start some place! At least these guys are fighting for things I want. the other GOP'ers? Forget it...there is not a backbone amongst them. If they don't deliver...we can vote them out next election cycle...not let them hang around forever like McCain or Graham. This is how our system is supposed to work...but rarely does.

Nope...you read me wrong...I do not put much hope in any politician but these guys are at least trying to fight while the rest of them just lay down and take it.

This might be the best we can hope for....who knows.

-brickboy240

[Gutshot John]

Well, I have ZERO faith in the GOP establishment and the RNC insiders like Karl Rove, Bill Kristol and Rience Priebus.

I don't think that Rove and Kristol work for the RNC, but I stipulate your larger point that the establishment GOP isn't any different than the establishment DNC.


With those bozos....we will forever be a minority party that loses every time because they cannot let the issues of abortion and gay marriage alone.

Agreed


Majority? Well..we have to start some place! At least these guys are fighting for things I want. the other GOP'ers? Forget it...there is not a backbone amongst them. If they don't deliver...we can vote them out next election cycle...not let them hang around forever like McCain or Graham. This is how our system is supposed to work...but rarely does.

McCain or Graham are there because voters put them there, if the Tea Party wants power it's going to have to secure votes. Popular support for the Tea Party has plummeted once it became clear that they were just Republicans in sheep's clothing, rather than a broad consensus of Americans who feared encroachment of government.

I used to know Tea Partiers who were pretty left-wing, and who feared government intrusion into their lives. Now all I see are people that used to (and still do) call themselves Republicans who then eat their own.


Nope...you read me wrong...I do not put much hope in any politician but these guys are at least trying to fight while the rest of them just lay down and take it.

This might be the best we can hope for....who knows.

-brickboy240

Ahhh well so long as you understand that they're fighting for themselves and not you, I can get behind that.

[ABNAK]

For accuracy we are a republic not a democracy.

Representative democracy.

Hair splitter. :)

[ABNAK]

But the two are very different. I don't care if a republic is a form of democracy. A democracy is mob rule and shouldn't be interchanged with a representative republic.

Well now in fairness there is at least the appearance of that at times!

[ABNAK]

Thought this discussion was about Ted Cruz and defunding the ACA?

Anyway at this point while some sensible arguments have been made to the contrary I say let it implode, stand on the high ground and govern from there in the aftermath. The dems will look horrible and the people will be pissed, costs are rising sharply anyway so how much worse could it get in that regard?

Only thing is the numbers. I mentioned earlier that the number of people getting their Obamacare subsidized outnumbers the people who will have to pay full price. Those same subsidy-suckers will ensure a safe return to office for any politician who votes FOR single payer. That would be the result an implosion. Once the free cheese is given you can't take it away----unless you have the numbers, and our side doesn't.

[ABNAK]

People have been saying the same thing for years and look at where we are at. Once something of this magnitude goes into effect there's little chance of going back. I can't really think of any major entitlement program that was repealed out of existence. Instead they get expanded and we get to fight the dems about it for eternity. If we try to take it away or even reform things we're portrayed as killing granny or taking food out of a child's mouth.


Once people are on that system it's going to be impossible to quit.


Exactly. Agreed 100%.

But the Republicans (I should say conservatives) should stop allowing the Dems to frame the debate and it being taken as a given that you're killing granny or taking food from a child. It should be refuted vehemently; hell, make counter-accusations! Forget this "Moral High Road" crap. Get down and dirty like they do. When wrestling with pigs in the mud one should expect to get a little mud on ya, right? ;)

[ABNAK]

Gutshot John,

I gotta ask: if not the likes of Cruz, who then? If he's just saying things for votes well he's got mine (if he runs) 'cause the things he's saying jive with my views. I mean if ANY politician is just for votes (not arguing that point), who then do you propose that would be any different?

Please please please don't say who I think you will. I don't even like to think about that kooky sumbitch.



As an aside, I work with two guys who are diehard Dems. One is a card-carrying Dem, complete with making donations to NPR and such. You should see him spit when Cruz's name comes up. The utter disdain he has is inspiring. Cruz is his worst f*****g nightmare! I love it!

[Belmont31R]

I think it's good he is shaking things up even if it does piss people off. They have such an entrenched 'this is how things are' attitude it's no wonder we are in the spot we are in.


And yes every politician does things for votes. That's why they are there. The more they please the voters the more likely they are to get reelected.

[platoonDaddy]

I think it's good he is shaking things up even if it does piss people off. They have such an entrenched 'this is how things are' attitude it's no wonder we are in the spot we are in.


And yes every politician does things for votes. That's why they are there. The more they please the voters the more likely they are to get reelected.


AMEN! For sure he is shaking the foundations of the elites! Love him!

[brickboy240]

Maybe we need to define what "our cause" really is.

If it means blocking Obamacare and the stiffing of liberties..then yeah...Cruz is HELPING our cause.

Is he doing this for himself? Great. I voted for him, because he said he would do everything in his power to stop Obamacare.

Therefore...he is doing exactly what many of us sent him to DC to do...shocking, huh?

Hey, none of these guys are golden but some are tons better than the establishment. Boehner and his merry men would never go out of their way to abolish Obamacare, so if these other guys are going to do it...fine.

-brickboy240

[Belmont31R]

Filibuster on?

[Gutshot John]

Maybe we need to define what "our cause" really is.

If it means blocking Obamacare and the stiffing of liberties..then yeah...Cruz is HELPING our cause.

I know it may appear that he's helping our cause, but while emotionally satisfying, if it's politically damaging, and only solidifies Democratic hold on the legislative/executive; than his actions are akin to cutting off his nose to spite his face.


Is he doing this for himself? Great. I voted for him, because he said he would do everything in his power to stop Obamacare.

If he's doing it for himself, and he succeeds, great. If he is doing it for himself and fails...not so much. If he's doing this as a way of furthering his own political ambitions even though he knows he can't succeed and knowing he will only damage any chance to seize control of the Senate...well that's a whole other level of cynicism.


Therefore...he is doing exactly what many of us sent him to DC to do...shocking, huh?

You mentioned that Democrats are playing 20 steps ahead, while I think that's giving them too much credit, it's pretty clear that Cruz hasn't even considered what his next procedural step is.

Someone asked 'if not Cruz, than who?' Fair question, bottom line there isn't anyone in the political arena.

You want to see real change occur? If a significant majority of Americans voted "NOTA" on the next election, effectively voting against both Democrats and Republicans and/or recalling all sitting politicians, you'd see change start happening the very next day...instant, bloodless, American Revolution 2.0.

[Belmont31R]

Ah the old chess not checkers argument that has never worked in our favor.

[Gutshot John]

Ah the old chess not checkers argument that has never worked in our favor.

It's more akin to the old "bring a knife to a gunfight" argument that will continue to work against you until you bring a gun.

[Belmont31R]

It's more akin to the old "bring a knife to a gunfight" argument that will continue to work against you until you bring a gun.

Not really.

[Gutshot John]

Not really.

Well taking your analogy then...if you don't know how to play checkers, chess isn't any easier.

[Gutshot John]

Hey if Cruz somehow pulls this off, bully for him, I'll happily eat my words and vote for him the next opportunity I get.

I just don't see how you get there from here.

I'm all for calculated risk, if there is a reasonable chance of inflicting greater damage on Obamacare, but I'll stick to my analogy of 4th and 45 on our own 10...and going for it.

Chances are pretty good it won't end well, and if Cruz hasn't figured it out...well maybe he isn't a very good coach.

[Belmont31R]

Hey if Cruz somehow pulls this off, bully for him, I'll happily eat my words and vote for him the next opportunity I get.

I just don't see how you get there from here.

I'm all for calculated risk, if there is a reasonable chance of inflicting greater damage on Obamacare, but I'll stick to my analogy of 4th and 45 on our own 10...and going for it.

Chances are pretty good it won't end well, and if Cruz hasn't figured it out...well maybe he isn't a very good coach.


The only thing going on here is the Senate a Republican leadership don't have the intestinal fortitude to stand up to Obama. Some of them like the Democrats better than members of their own party.

Standing up now is a lot less far fetched than waiting for things to implode then hoping the stars align just right, and I don't believe for a second these same people in leadership will turn things around in a limited gov fashion...something they were never for in the first place.

But hey since so many people want to see him fail and won't stand up don't be bitching when that cancellation letter comes.

[brickboy240]

Many people in the House and Senate RAN on a promise to help get rid of Obamacare.

Other than Cruz, Lee and Paul...where the hell ARE these people?

So what if he fails....he is the only one that is doing anything remotely close to what they ran on as a candidate.

Damaging to the party? Really? Hasn't the GOP pretty much "damaged" itself into a corner to begin with? The GOP leadership is dismal and you couple that with the 24-7 smear campaign by big media and I don't think the GOP could look any worse...sorry. The GOP is pretty much headed for permanent minority party status as it is.

Somebody has to stand up to Obama and the statists at some point.

I swear...some people here will bitch 24-7 about Obama and Obamacare and how spineless the GOP leadership is. Then...when one GOP member actually tries to oppose something....everyone hammers him or thinks it is damaging.

Give me a break.

-brickboy240

[Belmont31R]

Get used to it. Every time we are told we gotta wait and then things just keep getting worse and gov keeps getting bigger.

They haven't mounted any serious opposition to Obamacare...at all. One tries to filibuster it, and the GOP itself attacks them. The dems didn't even have to lift a finger as their GOP leadership lapdogs did it for them.

This entire time they have done nothing. Ask yourself why.

[brickboy240]

Because at it's heart...those that run the GOP really do not want to reform, change or lead a damn thing. They do NOT want to shrink government or reduce it's scope or power one iota.

Oh sure...they'll campaign on it but the truth is that they actually like the system the way it is right now and are perfectly happy being a minority opposition party with no teeth.

For them...the paycheck is the same, whether they are filibustering Obamacare or playing golf with Obama. Why stick your neck out and have the mighty mainstream press angry at you?

Sadly, this is where we are in America right now.

-brickboy240

[Safetyhit]

It's more akin to the old "bring a knife to a gunfight" argument that will continue to work against you until you bring a gun.


See but their version of bringing the gun is saying "I'll get everything I want or me and my gun are staying out of the extremely critical battle." That all or nothing mentality has hand delivered Obama two consecutive terms of utter devastation, yet many of these guys are ready to sit home yet again if all is not in perfect order.

Insanity. This battle will be won over time, not overnight.

[Pork Chop]

This entire time they have done nothing. Ask yourself why.

Easy one. Because Obamacare = control.

You can't control a man that doesn't need or want food stamps to eat. You can't control a man who doesn't need housing assistance. You can't control a man who provides for himself and refuses the govt tit.
However, you CAN control a man who's wife or child needs medical treatment. A man will do anything to get it. Anything.

Obamacare and the eventual single payer that's coming with it = the ultimate control of otherwise uncontrollable citizens.

The GOP is every bit in favor of that as much as the DNC.

[thopkins22]

Here's the thing about playing it safe GJ. I'm tired of Republicans playing it safe. I'm tired of letting Democrats shoot themselves in the foot, giving us control, only to watch the play it safe brand of Republicans do the exact same damn things that the Democrats were doing with different window dressing.

The play it safe method has given us nothing, while allowing Democrats to say that any problems were due to the way Republicans wanted to govern.

I'm 100% for fighting them at every opportunity, pontificating endlessly in filibusters that won't work, and anything we can do to ruffle their feathers. Play it safe left us with morons and leftists.

By the way, the constitution prohibits recall elections of representatives and senators. So scratch that from your wish list.

You know where I stand based on our endless debates for two elections now. But I still firmly believe that pragmatism as implemented by the crafty Republicans has failed us as well and does nothing but slow our decent as opposed to stopping it.

While they're certainly still just politicians, Cruz and Paul are at least making a fuss and not the compromisers that have killed us to this point. There are a lot more libertarian leaning folks in government than at any point in recent history. I know that pisses you off...but I find it to be a good thing. On the flip side, I don't think we'll see dramatic change until big things happen like term limits and possibly dramatic reapportionment. Since those aren't likely, I'm all in for secession(which honestly is more likely than career politicians voting to eliminate their careers.)

[Gutshot John]

Here's the thing about playing it safe GJ.

Who said anything about playing it safe?

My point is that he's playing it dumb.

Calculated risk doesn't mean "safe" it means don't do something that will more likely cut your own throat than your enemies. For a historical see Nimitz's operation orders for the Battle of Midway.

A win is a win, and a loss is a loss. GET THE MF'ing WIN!

I can deal with smart and ambitious, stupid and ambitious is something else entirely.

What's worse is that he's putting his ambitions ahead of actually getting what we want...i.e. getting rid of the Obamacare abomination.

This can be won legislatively, but that ain't happening before 2014...in 2012 Republicans cut their own throats by doing EXACTLY what Cruz is doing now.

If Cruz really wants to kill this thing...delay its implementation, and force Dems to eat their own dogfood. That will be a satisfying and tangible political victory in the short-term, while preserving it as an issue in 2014, which if the GOP shows skill and competency in governing, will gain them a majority to actually DO something about it.

My sense though is that Cruz (and much of the GOP) prefers having Obamacare as a rhetorical bludgeon. Same with Democrats and gun control or race relations, they'd rather have the issue to beat the GOP over the head than actually solve it and eliminate the problem.

[Belmont31R]

Waiting til Obamacare has wrecked private insurance, and only then doing something IF we have a super majority is a longer shot than if they had stood up to it the last 3 years.

[thopkins22]

What's worse is that he's putting his ambitions ahead of actually getting what we want.

I guess I don't see what there is to lose. I don't see how allowing something to be implemented that we don't want implemented helps us get it you know...not implemented.

ETA: I started my response before you edit. I see what you're saying, but it seems to me that route is actually the one choosing to use it as a political football. If it's implemented, it's not going away until we find ourselves implementing austerity. Frankly it's already here until then...it's too late. Using it in a fashion that let's more Republicans be elected that will in turn vote for more things like prescription drug benefits seems to follow the logic that any Republican is better than any Democrat, and fly in the face of the idea that for the most part they're all crooks.

I'm not convinced that giving either party cold hard control over both houses is a good thing. Generally, I believe that the less they can do the better. Both sides are incredibly adept at screwing things up when left to their own devices.

[ABNAK]

If Cruz really wants to kill this thing...delay its implementation, and force Dems to eat their own dogfood.

No, the thing to do is INSIST it be implemented on schedule. I don't know how Obama gets off (well, he is KING after all) ignoring the law, but I digress. It's plainly apparent that it's being done for the 2014 mid-term elections. No, force it's implementation on schedule and see how the Dems fare next November. Then maybe, just maybe, you'll have a veto-proof majority (long shot I know).

Can't they go to the SCOTUS about this? Don't think the POTUS can unilaterally impose changes in a LAW, and that's what delays in an implementation schedule that are clearly written into it are.

[Gutshot John]

I guess I don't see what there is to lose. I don't see how allowing something to be implemented that we don't want implemented helps us get it you know...not implemented.

Really? I think that while emotionally satisfying it's weak as a tactic and nonexistent as a strategy.

So if Republicans shut down the government and gets blamed for it (as is most likely to be the outcome), resulting in either no net gain of Senate/House seats or more scary, a loss of Senate/House seats, and Obamacare gets FULLY implemented...how is that not something to lose?

Our last real hope of getting Obamacare repealed is a wave election in 2014, that returns control of both houses to the GOP. To do that the GOP is going to think far more strategically.

Obamacare can't be fixed, delaying its implementation keeps it alive as an issue while minimizing the economic damage. As people get more and more outraged by things like Trader Joe's the Cleveland Clinic (even Labor Unions are beginning to realize they got snowed) etc., all the Republicans have to do is sit back and say "told you so."

[thopkins22]

Really? I think that while emotionally satisfying it's weak as a tactic and nonexistent as a strategy.

So if Republicans shut down the government and gets blamed for it (as is most likely to be the outcome), resulting in either no net gain of Senate/House seats or more scary, a loss of Senate/House seats, and Obamacare gets FULLY implemented...how is that not something to lose?

Our last real hope of getting Obamacare repealed is a wave election in 2014, that returns control of both houses to the GOP. To do that the GOP is going to think far more strategically.

Obamacare can't be fixed, delaying its implementation keeps it alive as an issue while minimizing the economic damage. As people get more and more outraged by things like Trader Joe's the Cleveland Clinic (even Labor Unions are beginning to realize they got snowed) etc., all the Republicans have to do is sit back and say "told you so."

I think if the messaging were better, and people understood what it meant, that people wouldn't be afraid of a government shutdown. Hell the idea of it gives me the warm and fuzzy...a tickle down my leg so to speak.

You raise valid points though.

[Gutshot John]

No, the thing to do is INSIST it be implemented on schedule.

So you'd rather do real economic damage to the country for political expediency? Even assuming Americans are too stupid to see through such a transparent ploy? How is that principled leadership?

I call that cutting off your nose to spite your face.

If you delay something that can never be implemented (because it can't possibly function), you're giving the Democrats all the rope they need to hang themselves, while saying "hey we gave them every chance to fix it, but it's simply impossible."

If your enemy is doing something stupid...don't get in the way.

If Dems want to step on their own dick and take the credit for it, why not let them?

[ABNAK]

So you'd rather do real economic damage to the country for political expediency? Even assuming Americans are too stupid to see through such a transparent ploy? How is that principled leadership?

I call that cutting off your nose to spite your face.

If you delay something that can never be implemented (because it can't possibly function), you're giving the Democrats all the rope they need to hang themselves, while saying "hey we gave them every chance to fix it, but it's simply impossible."

If your enemy is doing something stupid...don't get in the way.

If Dems want to step on their own dick and take the credit for it, why not let them?

Wait a minute....how is insisting it be implemented as written a "transparent ploy"? The real transparent ploy is the Dems delaying it to not have pain inflicted until after the mid-terms. THAT is the ploy!

You seem to think this thing can be delayed indefinitely. I predict once the mid-terms are over you'll see the administration hell-bent on getting it implemented ASAP.

[Gutshot John]

Wait a minute....how is insisting it be implemented as written a "transparent ploy"? The real transparent ploy is the Dems delaying it to not have pain inflicted until after the mid-terms. THAT is the ploy!

The transparent ploy would be insisting that it be implemented as is/on schedule when everyone knows Republicans hate it. Whereas if they say "it's so bad we have to delay it as long as possible, to either fix or defeat it." Everyone will say that makes sense.

It's the same reason Republicans get blamed for shutdowns...everyone knows they're anti-gov, so when the gov gets shut down people assume it's what they want...ergo they get the blame.

The Democratic ploy is granting waivers for its constituencies and donors. I agree that those waivers should not be granted.

You didn't say "implemented as written" you said "implemented on schedule." You can delay it and still have it be implemented as written. Timelines change all the time.

Let them delay implementation, but don't let them grant waivers. Make everyone eat the same dog food.

Implementing on schedule is going to cause real economic harm for the sake of political gains.

Whereas if you delay its implementation you're buying time to rally political support as more people "learn what's actually in it."

[ABNAK]

No, the Democratic ploy is granting waivers for its constituencies and donors. I agree that those waivers should not be granted.

You didn't say "implemented as written" you said "implemented on schedule." You can delay it and still have it be implemented as written. Timelines change all the time.

Let them delay implementation, but don't let them grant waivers. Make everyone eat the same dog food.

Implementing on schedule is going to cause real economic harm for the sake of political gains.

Whereas if you delay its implementation you're buying time to rally political support as more people "learn what's actually in it."

I was under the impression that the dates for the various phases were written into the law. Maybe someone can clarify, as this seems to be the crux of the bitching about Obama doing it.

Yeah, NO WAIVERS FOR ANYONE!!!

[Gutshot John]

I was under the impression that the dates for the various phases were written into the law.

That's correct, which is why they would need Republicans to delay it.

In doing so they will look reasonable, even though we all know that no matter how long you delay it you won't ever be able to fix it.

No matter how long you delay lunch you can't fix a soup sandwich.

I say let the Democrats try...and boy will they look stupid but they won't be able to blame it on Republicans.

[jpmuscle]

I hear he is reading Dr. Suess presently

[Belmont31R]

That's correct, which is why they would need Republicans to delay it.

In doing so they will look reasonable, even though we all know that no matter how long you delay it you won't ever be able to fix it.

No matter how long you delay lunch you can't fix a soup sandwich.

I say let the Democrats try...and boy will they look stupid but they won't be able to blame it on Republicans.


The employer mandate was delayed without any input from Congress.

[jpmuscle]

The employer mandate was delayed without any input from Congress.


I guess when your the self-proclaimed god-in-chief the law becomes only a mere nuisance.

[Gutshot John]

The employer mandate was delayed without any input from Congress.

IIRC they only delayed the reporting requirement which falls under regulation/compliance but duly noted.

[Mauser KAR98K]

I hear he is reading Dr. Suess presently

"Yes, Sam-I-Am, Michelle wants our Green Eggs and Ham."

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

Hurting our cause? What is our cause? Say no until the very end and then break down and say yes? At least Cruz stands for something and has a spine that isn't fully jelly. Cant say the same for senior R leadership.

[jpmuscle]

Hurting our cause? What is our cause? Say no until the very end and then break down and say yes? At least Cruz stands for something and has a spine that isn't fully jelly. Cant say the same for senior R leadership.

All said and done I love Cruz even more after this. His bit about uniting the clans sounds like some from William Wallace.

Add to this the fact that both dems and some in the GOP continue to attack him just makes it all the sweeter.

[Safetyhit]

Hurting our cause? What is our cause? Say no until the very end and then break down and say yes? At least Cruz stands for something and has a spine that isn't fully jelly. Cant say the same for senior R leadership.


It appears you have entirely missed the point. Perhaps go back and re-read what I wrote, then stop back after if you like.

[Gutshot John]

He won't hurt our cause if he succeeds, and I do hope he succeeds.

This however isn't looking even that good...except for Ted Cruz's political ambitions. At least a Pyrrhic Victory is a win. If he fails, he's made full implementation of Obamacare significantly more likely. That's how it will hurt our cause.

Conservatism used to be about pragmatism and realpolitik, now it's about feel-good, but ultimately empty posturing.

If that isn't obvious, well I'm not sure what to say except "People get the government they deserve."

In this case they'll get it good and hard.

[Belmont31R]

He won't hurt our cause if he succeeds, and I do hope he succeeds.

This however isn't looking even that good...except for Ted Cruz's political ambitions. At least a Pyrrhic Victory is a win. If he fails, he's made full implementation of Obamacare significantly more likely. That's how it will hurt our cause.

Conservatism used to be about pragmatism and realpolitik, now it's about feel-good, but ultimately empty posturing.

If that isn't obvious, well I'm not sure what to say except "People get the government they deserve."

In this case they'll get it good and hard.

The only people empty posturing are the ones who got elected to fight Obamacare and haven't done anything to stop it all this time.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_shutdown_of_1995_and_1996

These days, Republicans don't have the balls to stand up to a Democrat president.

[Gutshot John]

Well I'd prefer leaders who think with their brains than with their balls.

As if to prove the point...Reid has enough votes to fully fund Obamacare once Cruz gives up the fight.

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/324395-reid-unites-grumbling-caucus-has-votes-to-pass-spending-bill

In response House GOP is scrambling to add a delay to the CR...which should have been done to begin with...

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/house-gop-obamacare-cr-97299.html

So while emotionally satisfying to watch Ted Cruz, he's actually made the situation worse. Of course the outcome was irrelevant, his real goal is the GOP nomination and I'm amazed that people refuse to see it.

"Standing up to the Democratic President"? Please.

His actions are so much political masturbation.

So much for "balls."

[Belmont31R]

Made the situation worse because your grand plan is to let Obamacare ruin the medical system in this country then hope at some point the GOP in the future has a super majority and will actually pass a good bill fixing everything.


Other people would prefer Obamacare not have the chance to ruin our healthcare in the first place and don't trust the GOP to pass a good bill assuming they even have a super majority which is unlikely.

[Safetyhit]

Completely agree with Gutshot. There is a sensible concept known as risk versus reward in place and I have yet to hear even one credible pundit on the Republican side state they believe Cruz will have any impact on anything except his image. And no they don't hate him, they aren't just jealous. They are being rational.

Top that off with the fact that the whole point I initially tried to make is it is doomed to self destruct anyway and his all night show becomes little more than a needless farce.

[Safetyhit]

Made the situation worse because your grand plan is to let Obamacare ruin the medical system in this country then hope at some point the GOP in the future has a super majority and will actually pass a good bill fixing everything.


Other people would prefer Obamacare not have the chance to ruin our healthcare in the first place and don't trust the GOP to pass a good bill assuming they even have a super majority which is unlikely.


This is all doom and gloom. Once the ACA wreaks the havoc it is scheduled to then it helps a Republican become president who will almost certainly do everything in their power to nullify all or most of the law while encouraging the free market.

Again it looks like some of us want the quick fix and it will never ever happen that way.

[Belmont31R]

Completely agree with Gutshot. There is a sensible concept known as risk versus reward in place and I have yet to hear even one credible pundit on the Republican side state they believe Cruz will have any impact on anything except his image. And no they don't hate him, they aren't just jealous. They are being rational.

Top that off with the fact that the whole point I initially tried to make is it is doomed to self destruct anyway and his all night show becomes little more than a needless farce.


Won't have an impact because the GOP Senate leadership are gutless, and prefer democrats over their own party. Doesn't make Cruz out of line. When Rand was doing the same thing against drone strikes McCain and Graham were dining with Obama. That is the nature of the Senate GOP at this point.

Doomed to self destruct? Yes, and us along with it where single payer will be the answer not a reduction in government. I'm not sure why people are comfortable with that rather than taking a stand now. We got the House back because of Obamacare now we just have to sit it out and let them take over our healthcare?

[Belmont31R]

This is all doom and gloom. Once the ACA wreaks the havoc it is scheduled to then it helps a Republican become president who will almost certainly do everything in their power to nullify all or most of the law while encouraging the free market.

Again it looks like some of us want the quick fix and it will never ever happen that way.


So we bash Obama for being king and picking what laws are enforced yet are not doing anything now because at some point in the future a Republican president might get elected and might pick and choose what laws get enforced?

[Gutshot John]

Made the situation worse because your grand plan is to let Obamacare ruin the medical system in this country then hope at some point the GOP in the future has a super majority and will actually pass a good bill fixing everything.

Cool your jets there chief, I have nothing but contempt for Obamacare, calling it my "grand plan" is not only untrue, but way out of bounds. You can't argue rationally and so you resort to questioning my motives? That's the way to keep it classy, if that's the GOP master plan...keep doing that and see how many votes they get.

The only way you defund Obamacare is to get a MAJORITY (you know that pesky little thing that all democratic forms of government require).
I know it might come as a shock to you, but neither CRUZ (NOR THE GOP) IS IN THE MAJORITY!!!

How hard is that to understand? If you want to be in the majority you have to demonstrate that you have brains more than balls.

If this ends up maintaining the status quo in the legislative, than we've lost any hope.

In a war do you throw all your troops against a superior enemy to prove you have "balls"? Or do you fight a delaying action until you can choose better ground on which to fight, chipping away at the enemy's flanks, eroding his will, until you can bring superior force to bear?

Which do you think is the more effective strategy? I'm guessing the latter. YMMV.

What's the simpler explanation? That he's another ambitious politician with aspirations to the WH and perfectly content to have Obamacare as an issue? Or he's the only principled politician in the world, and is willing to do whatever it takes to defend his principles? Occam's Razor is a bitch.

I'm not who wants Obamacare to pass, it seems however that Cruz is perfectly willing to let it be fully implemented, all for the sake of his political ambition.


Other people would prefer Obamacare not have the chance to ruin our healthcare in the first place and don't trust the GOP to pass a good bill assuming they even have a super majority which is unlikely.

First you don't need a supermajority, Obamacare was passed by 51 votes, all it takes is a simple majority. If both the House/Senate vote to pass budget to defund Obamacare, and the Pres vetoes it (causing a shutdown), guess who's going to get the blame?

Second, your statement demonstrates the vapidity of Cruz's position. What good is a principled stand if it's not going to bring the issue to the forefront, and help gain a simple or supermajority?

Your argument implicitly acknowledges the idiocy of Cruz's actions, but hey if that's what you'd prefer.

So let me ask you...what's the endgame? How does this help our cause? What do you think is actually going to happen? How does this play out to actually have the practical effect of getting rid of Obamacare? Explain to me the larger strategy?

[Gutshot John]

So we bash Obama for being king and picking what laws are enforced yet are not doing anything now because at some point in the future a Republican president might get elected and might pick and choose what laws get enforced?

I don't see you on the Capitol steps with all the other so-called conservatives, rallying in support of Cruz's actions. That might actually have a real impact and affect the change you seem to want.

The plain fact is that the more people persist in believing that politicians will save us from this idiocy, the more likely it is that we lose.

In fact I don't see anyone...balls? Give me a break.

[C4IGrant]

I watched must of Ted's filibustering last night and this morning. He is well spoken, intelligent and fast on his feet. I think what he is doing is positive. I know that I learned some things from listening to him and since most of the voting populace only knows what the news organization tell them, I am glad he is telling it like it is.

Texas is lucky to have such a great Senator.



C4

[Belmont31R]

Cool your jets there chief, I have nothing but contempt for Obamacare, calling it my "grand plan" is not only untrue, but way out of bounds. You can't argue rationally and so you resort to questioning my motives? That's the way to keep it classy, if that's the GOP master plan...keep doing that and see how many votes they get.

The only way you defund Obamacare is to get a MAJORITY (you know that pesky little thing that all democratic forms of government require).
I know it might come as a shock to you, but neither CRUZ (NOR THE GOP) IS IN THE MAJORITY!!!

How hard is that to understand? If you want to be in the majority you have to demonstrate that you have brains more than balls.

If this ends up maintaining the status quo in the legislative, than we've lost any hope.

In a war do you throw all your troops against a superior enemy to prove you have "balls"? Or do you fight a delaying action until you can choose better ground on which to fight, chipping away at the enemy's flanks, eroding his will, until you can bring superior force to bear?

Which do you think is the more effective strategy? I'm guessing the latter. YMMV.

What's the simpler explanation? That he's another ambitious politician with aspirations to the WH and perfectly content to have Obamacare as an issue? Or he's the only principled politician in the world, and is willing to do whatever it takes to defend his principles? Occam's Razor is a bitch.

I'm not who wants Obamacare to pass, it seems however that Cruz is perfectly willing to let it be fully implemented, all for the sake of his political ambition.



First you don't need a supermajority, Obamacare was passed by 51 votes, all it takes is a simple majority. If both the House/Senate vote to pass budget to defund Obamacare, and the Pres vetoes it (causing a shutdown), guess who's going to get the blame?

Second, your statement demonstrates the vapidity of Cruz's position. What good is a principled stand if it's not going to bring the issue to the forefront, and help gain a simple or supermajority?

Your argument implicitly acknowledges the idiocy of Cruz's actions, but hey if that's what you'd prefer.

So let me ask you...what's the endgame? How does this help our cause? What do you think is actually going to happen? How does this play out to actually have the practical effect of getting rid of Obamacare? Explain to me the larger strategy?


This entire thread you have advocated for no delay so it implodes and now calling you on it is out of bounds? Whatever.

We have a majority in the House who got their majority because of Obamacare.

You can rant all you want about Cruz's ambitions. You've said the same thing in nearly every post. We got it that you think that 20 posts ago.

[Belmont31R]

I don't see you on the Capitol steps with all the other so-called conservatives, rallying in support of Cruz's actions. That might actually have a real impact and affect the change you seem to want.

The plain fact is that the more people persist in believing that politicians will save us from this idiocy, the more likely it is that we lose.

In fact I don't see anyone...balls? Give me a break.

That's because I live far away and why we elect people so I don't have to be personally involved, in person, on every issue.

Another post proclaiming your hate of politicians. Is that all you can say?

[Gutshot John]

This entire thread you have advocated for no delay so it implodes and now calling you on it is out of bounds? Whatever.

Derrr...I guess you don't read so good.

I EXPLICITLY CALLED FOR DELAY. In fact I did it again in the post you quoted.

Newsflash, Ted Cruz isn't delaying bupkis.

Stupid party is right.

[Gutshot John]

That's because I live far away and why we elect people so I don't have to be personally involved, in person, on every issue.

Another post proclaiming your hate of politicians. Is that all you can say?

Lots of other so-called conservatives are closer and I don't see them there either, but if I apply your insipid logic regarding my motivations, allow me to return the favor...I guess since you can't be bothered to travel (it ain't really that far) you don't really care that much?

Still haven't answered my question...

What practical thing does Cruz affect with this? What's the strategy? What's the endgame?

How does it get us any closer to getting rid of Obamacare?

[Safetyhit]

I watched must of Ted's filibustering last night and this morning. He is well spoken, intelligent and fast on his feet. I think what he is doing is positive. I know that I learned some things from listening to him and since most of the voting populace only knows what the news organization tell them, I am glad he is telling it like it is.

Texas is lucky to have such a great Senator.



C4


Sure they are, in fact I'm glad he's there too. Unfortunately that has little to do with the fact that he is doing the right thing at the wrong time and in the wrong fashion.

[SteveS]

Lets just roll over and take what ever comes our way! Ted Cruse is doing what most of us never do and that is standup for what is right.

[scottryan]

This is all doom and gloom. Once the ACA wreaks the havoc it is scheduled to then it helps a Republican become president who will almost certainly do everything in their power to nullify all or most of the law while encouraging the free market.

Again it looks like some of us want the quick fix and it will never ever happen that way.


Your senario isn't going to happen.

[Belmont31R]

Derrr...I guess you don't read so good.

I EXPLICITLY CALLED FOR DELAY. In fact I did it again in the post you quoted.

Newsflash, Ted Cruz isn't delaying bupkis.

Stupid party is right.


Now you are talking out both sides of your mouth. You've taken up both sides.

Stupid party? Way to go.

[Belmont31R]

Lots of other so-called conservatives are closer and I don't see them there either, but if I apply your insipid logic regarding my motivations, allow me to return the favor...I guess since you can't be bothered to travel (it ain't really that far) you don't really care that much?

Still haven't answered my question...

What practical thing does Cruz affect with this? What's the strategy? What's the endgame?

How does it get us any closer to getting rid of Obamacare?


Yeah ok. TX to DC ain't that far. Just a little jaunt. Straw man argument.

Keep Obamacare from doing as much damage as funding it will.

[Gutshot John]

Yeah ok. TX to DC ain't that far. Just a little jaunt. Straw man argument.

Keep Obamacare from doing as much damage as funding it will.

I seem to recall some real patriots who laid their lives on the line about 237 years ago, many of them also travelled a lot further in terms of chronological distance than that.

If you really feel it's a threat to your liberty, and you're not even willing to get on a plane to support your hero?

Forgive me if that strikes me as weak sauce.

[Gutshot John]

Now you are talking out both sides of your mouth. You've taken up both sides.

Stupid party? Way to go.

Please point to where I've argued that Obamacare should be implemented immediately.

Reading is fundamental.

Stupid is as stupid does.

[TAZ]

What practical thing does Cruz affect with this? What's the strategy? What's the endgame?

How does it get us any closer to getting rid of Obamacare?

Now I don't know Ted Cruze personally so I can't comment on whether he is doing all this to bolster his ego or garner more votes come re-election time. However, he is adequately representing my feelings on a number of problems so I'm gonna probably vote for him again.

Maybe he won't accomplish anything but make some noise and wake people up. I know my dye in the wool democrat MIL heard some of what he was saying and started looking into the whole loving ObamaCare fiasco and came to some interesting realizations like she is screwed cause her basic plan that she can barely afford now will not meet minimum standards. So just maybe he can open some eyes and get people thinking outside of what the MSM is bleeting.

I guess a better question to this whole cluster is what is a better plan than standing up for what you believe and what your constituents sent you off for? Do we just continue to HOPE that the republicans who have left us dangling for decades will one day wake up and do what is right for the country instead of what is right for their pocket books?? That's worked out well for us hasn't it.

Sorry, but I don't buy into the whole lets give the republican shitheads one more chance. I'm NOT an abused spouse who thinks her abuser still loves her.

Screw the Republican Party as hard and as fast as Democratic Party. IMO they are 2 sides of the same coin filled with the same bunch of shitbags.

[C4IGrant]

Sure they are, in fact I'm glad he's there too. Unfortunately that has little to do with the fact that he is doing the right thing at the wrong time and in the wrong fashion.

Sorry, I don't know what any of that means.

Doing SOMETHING is better than doing NOTHING (whether at the right time or not).



C4

[Belmont31R]

I seem to recall some real patriots who laid their lives on the line about 237 years ago, many of them also travelled a lot further in terms of chronological distance than that.

If you really feel it's a threat to your liberty, and you're not even willing to get on a plane to support your hero?

Forgive me if that strikes me as weak sauce.


Why are you harping on this? Lame.

[Gutshot John]

Post #18:

"If Ted Cruz really cared about getting rid of Obamacare he'd be looking for a way to become the majority in the Senate, if he wanted to make a symbolic/principled stand, he'd introduce legislation to either delay obamacare's implementation as well as applying it to every member of the Federal government and legislative branch. Both would easily succeed, have a practical economic/political effect, and give more time to eliminate Obamacare before it gets implemented. "

Post #45:

"As for it going back after it's implemented...1. Republicans can certainly muster support on both sides of the aisle to DELAY it further; and 2. SS/Medicare were both wildly popular and passed in a bipartisan fashion - Obamacare wasn't. Apples and oranges. "

#52:

If he really wanted a victory on Obamacare, he'd introduce language making Senators/Congressman eat their own dogfood. Likewise he'd delay implementation until there is a sizable enough majority to defeat it.

#77:
"If Cruz really wants to kill this thing...delay its implementation, and force Dems to eat their own dogfood. "

#81: (see the whole exchange with me and Abnak)
"Obamacare can't be fixed, delaying its implementation keeps it alive as an issue while minimizing the economic damage. As people get more and more outraged by things like Trader Joe's the Cleveland Clinic (even Labor Unions are beginning to realize they got snowed) etc., all the Republicans have to do is sit back and say "told you so." "

#83:
"If you delay something that can never be implemented (because it can't possibly function), you're giving the Democrats all the rope they need to hang themselves, while saying "hey we gave them every chance to fix it, but it's simply impossible."

#85:
"Let them delay implementation, but don't let them grant waivers. Make everyone eat the same dog food. "

Now Belmont...please point to one place where I ever said it should be implemented immediately...oh that's right. YOU CAN'T.

:help:

Don't worry I know you're not man enough to admit when you make a mistake so I won't hold my breath for an apology.

[Gutshot John]

Why are you harping on this? Lame.

Because I'm tired of self-proclaimed conservatives' hypocrisy, which you embody all so well.

If you view it as a threat to your liberty...PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS AND DO SOMETHING OTHER THAN WHINE ON THIS FORUM.

Otherwise you're just whistling dixie.

[Belmont31R]

Please point to where I've argued that Obamacare should be implemented immediately.

Reading is fundamental.

Stupid is as stupid does.


Your position has been to not defund it right now.

[Belmont31R]

Because I'm tired of self-proclaimed conservatives' hypocrisy, which you embody all so well.


I'm not telling other people to go do something I won't do.

[Gutshot John]

Your position has been to not defund it right now.

Ohhhhh so now you're moving the target, moreover you still missed where I said "If he succeeds great."

Newsflash...IT'S NOT GETTING DEFUNDED RIGHT NOW. Even Ted Cruz knows this. His actions are wholly symbolic without any real practical effect, other than to make it much more likely to be implemented on schedule.

I wonder why you can't figure it out.

[Gutshot John]

I'm not telling other people to go do something I won't do.

Duly noted, you don't care that much.

[Belmont31R]

Ohhhhh so now you're moving the target, moreover you still missed where I said "If he succeeds great."

Newsflash...IT'S NOT GETTING DEFUNDED RIGHT NOW. Even Ted Cruz knows this. I

More to the point Ted Cruz's actions makes it much more likely to be implemented on schedule.

I wonder why you can't figure it out.


Whys that John? Who's forcing the House to fund it? They passed a bill not funding it. You know a bill has to be passed by both sides of Congress, right?

[Belmont31R]

Duly noted, you don't care that much.


Ok. I'm not sure where you came up with that out of left field straw man. Unless I cancel everything else in life at the last second, screw my family, job, school, ect...I just don't care.

No one believes that but you for some reason that is lost on all of humanity.

[Gutshot John]

Whys that John? Who's forcing the House to fund it? They passed a bill not funding it. You know a bill has to be passed by both sides of Congress, right?

Right, but any differences between the two bills means it will have to go back to the house.

SOOOO....

Either the Senate will pass the bill as is (not bloody likely) or it will make changes and send it back to the house for a revote.

Look at the date (you have 6 days before October 1st...you know the start of the fiscal year?) ...the longer the bill stays in the senate, the longer it takes before it goes back to the house...where Boehner and company are currently scrambling to get whip enough votes to implement a delay...it will then have to go back to the Senate.

This practically assures that the government will shut down, and much less likely that they will have time to legislate a delay into the CR.

It certainly would help if you guys knew how the legislative process worked. :help:

[Gutshot John]

Ok. I'm not sure where you came up with that out of left field straw man. Unless I cancel everything else in life at the last second, screw my family, job, school, ect...I just don't care.

No one believes that but you for some reason that is lost on all of humanity.

I personally don't care what you do, but don't sell me that Cruz's actions are anything more than symbolic if you aren't willing to make a stand and help the grassroots effort to support him.

Your actions more than your words point to the futility of Cruz's so-called "stand."

That ain't a straw man, that's basic common sense. Ooops my bad.

[Belmont31R]

Right, but any differences between the two bills means it will have to go back to the house.

SOOOO....

Either the Senate will pass the bill as is (not bloody likely) or it will make changes and send it back to the house for a revote.

Look at the date (you have 6 days before October 1st...you know the start of the fiscal year?) ...the longer the bill stays in the senate, the longer it takes before it goes back to the house...where Boehner and company are currently scrambling to get whip enough votes to implement a delay...it will then have to go back to the Senate.

This practically assures that the government will shut down, and much less likely that they will have time to legislate a delay into the CR.

It certainly would help if you guys knew how the legislative process worked. :help:


And? I never said anything contrary to that.

[Belmont31R]

I personally don't care what you do, but don't sell me that Cruz's actions are anything more than symbolic if you aren't willing to make a stand and help the grassroots effort to support him.

Your actions more than your words point to the futility of Cruz's so-called "stand."

That ain't a straw man, that's basic common sense. Ooops my bad.


Your fault is equating me not dropping everything I have going on and going to DC as the baseline of supporting Cruz or I just don't care.

No one believes that but you.

[Safetyhit]

Sorry, I don't know what any of that means.

Doing SOMETHING is better than doing NOTHING (whether at the right time or not).



C4


Sounds great, but simply "doing something" that will, even if successful, likely backfire and possibly do later harm still isn't a positive. Shutting down the government will make many, many people unhappy.

Almost as many as will Obamacare before it falls apart and is either trashed or completely revamped, leaving the right tangibly strengthened.

[Gutshot John]

And? I never said anything contrary to that.

I never said you did, I just pointed out that you clearly don't understand it.

Ted Cruz is burning valuable time needed to get this back to the house for a delay to be introduced, and then sent back to the Senate.

Assuming Cruz leaves the floor today, there are 5 days to debate/invoke cloture/vote in the Senate, then send it back to the house where if no other changes are made other than to write in a delay, which hopefully then gets passed, then it gets sent back to the Senate to either approve or not (which it might not given annoyance on the part of the Majority who might otherwise have gone along but there is no time for a conference committee).

That would be record timing to get it done by midnight September 30th to avoid a shutdown for which Republicans are likely to take the blame, especially given Cruz's grandstanding.

This is about to blow up in your face and you don't even realize that the fuse is lit. Oh well, people get the government they deserve.

[Gutshot John]

Your fault is equating me not dropping everything I have going on and going to DC as the baseline of supporting Cruz or I just don't care.

No one believes that but you.

No I just used the same insipid logic you used to say that obamacare was part of my "grand plan."

Apparently the irony was lost on you.

You can dish it out, but you sure can't take it.

[Belmont31R]

Sounds great, but simply "doing something" that will, even if successful, likely backfire and possibly do later harm still isn't a positive. Shutting down the government will make many, many people unhappy.

Almost as many as will Obamacare before it falls apart and is either trashed or completely revamped, leaving the right tangibly strengthened.


That requires that 1. Republicans control Congress and the executive 2. They will shrink government which they have no record of 3. if they don't have a super majority they will use the nuclear option which we don't like when Democrats do 4. We allow Obamacare to ruin private healthcare, cost people their jobs, and hurt the economy until 1,2&3 all occur.

Or we could have taken a stand since the GOP took over the House on the basis of fighting Obamacare and we can take a stand right now on the eve of it going into effect.

Personally I'd rather not endure years of Obamacare and I don't have enough faith in Republicans getting complete control back and reducing government in a positive way.

[Belmont31R]

I never said you did, I just pointed out that you clearly don't understand it.

Ted Cruz is burning valuable time needed to get this back to the house for a delay to be introduced, and then sent back to the Senate.

Assuming Cruz leaves the floor today, there are 5 days to debate/invoke cloture/vote in the Senate, then send it back to the house where if no other changes are made other than to write in a delay, which hopefully then gets passed, then it gets sent back to the Senate to either approve or not (which it might not given annoyance on the part of the Majority who might otherwise have gone along but there is no time for a conference committee).

That would be record timing to get it done by midnight September 30th to avoid a shutdown for which Republicans are likely to take the blame, especially given Cruz's grandstanding.

This is about to blow up in your face and you don't even realize that the fuse is lit. Oh well, people get the government they deserve.


Hypotheticals don't prove what Cruz did to be wrong.

[Gutshot John]

That requires that 1. Republicans control Congress and the executive 2. They will shrink government which they have no record of 3. if they don't have a super majority they will use the nuclear option which we don't like when Democrats do 4. We allow Obamacare to ruin private healthcare, cost people their jobs, and hurt the economy until 1,2&3 all occur. .

I could explain how you're wrong on all counts but you'd neither believe it nor understand it.

You prefer this political masturbation to a real solution. You prefer another politician putting his ambition ahead of what is right.

Fine, but don't pretend it's otherwise.

[Belmont31R]

No I just used the same insipid logic you used to say that obamacare was part of my "grand plan."

Apparently the irony was lost on you.

You can dish it out, but you sure can't take it.


Your plan is to let Obamacare that effect by not defunding it then assume the Republicans will get control back and pass legislation that will correct of all our ills brought on Obamacare. You said yourself that defunding it would give Democrats the easy out, and keep them from rating their own dog food.

[Gutshot John]

Hypotheticals don't prove what Cruz did to be wrong.

Hypotheticals? It's how the legislative branch works?

Are you really that clueless?

Nevermind.

[Belmont31R]

I could explain how you're wrong on all counts but you'd neither believe it nor understand it.

You prefer this political masturbation to a real solution. You prefer another politician putting his ambition ahead of what is right.

Fine, but don't pretend it's otherwise.


A real solution is defunding it not a grand plan of letting Obamacare implode with us along with then, then waiting for the chance of complete Republican control to fix it all for us. Your idea is a lot further off from reality than taking a stand and not letting it be funded.

[Belmont31R]

Hypotheticals? It's how the legislative branch works?

Are you really that clueless?

Nevermind.


You don't know what exactly is going to happen. You presented a hypothetical chain of events.

[Gutshot John]

You don't know what exactly is going to happen. You presented a hypothetical chain of events.

It's not a hypothetical chain of events, that's how the legislative process works.

That's what HAS TO HAPPEN for a bill to be sent to the President's desk.

Clearly you're incapable of arguing in good faith, so I'll not waste any more time on such willful ignorance.

[Safetyhit]

Will you guys please knock it off.

[Belmont31R]

It's not a hypothetical chain of events, that's how the legislative process works.

That's what HAS TO HAPPEN for a bill to be sent to the President's desk.

Clearly you're incapable of arguing in good faith, so I'll not waste any more time on such willful ignorance.


The part that was hypothetical is what the House will do and then what the Senate will do not the process. I'm well aware of the legislative process but the details of what is going to get passed is unknown.

[brickboy240]

Many on here have posted several times....blasting Obamacare or the spineless non-active GOP.

Then...one guy gets up there and actually DOES something and many blast him for doing so.

No wonder we are in the shape we find ourselves and the GOP cannot escape the circular firing squad.

Where is YOUR GOP Senator? You know...the one that blabbers on about liberty and freedom and mom, Chevys and apple pie. The one that says HE is a REAL conservative and that HE will fight for you in his campaign commercials. The guy that talks about the Constitution and the flag in his campaign speeches over and over again.

...probably asleep or hiding under his desk until his next golf game....hoping all of this will just blow away and be over.

-brickboy240

[C4IGrant]

Sounds great, but simply "doing something" that will, even if successful, likely backfire and possibly do later harm still isn't a positive. Shutting down the government will make many, many people unhappy.

Almost as many as will Obamacare before it falls apart and is either trashed or completely revamped, leaving the right tangibly strengthened.

No big deal on a Govt ShutDown. I lived through one under Clinton (active duty at the time).

I think it would be good to shut things down for awhile.



C4

[Belmont31R]

No big deal on a Govt ShutDown. I lived through one under Clinton (active duty at the time).

I think it would be good to shut things down for awhile.



C4


A lot of the credit Clinton takes and people give him for the 'balanced budget' is because Newt stuck to his guns and went into shutdowns over spending disputes. Then Clinton took the credit.

But these days the GOP doesn't have the spine to stand up in the same way, and even seemingly have taken on the role of big gov and big spending.

I guess when they suck so bad at messaging and don't really believe in principle or fiscal conservatism their only option is accept being half as bad Democrats then attack anyone who actually adheres to traditional republican ideology.

[C4IGrant]

A lot of the credit Clinton takes and people give him for the 'balanced budget' is because Newt stuck to his guns and went into shutdowns over spending disputes. Then Clinton took the credit.

But these days the GOP doesn't have the spine to stand up in the same way, and even seemingly have taken on the role of big gov and big spending.

I guess when they suck so bad at messaging and don't really believe in principle or fiscal conservatism their only option is accept being half as bad Democrats then attack anyone who actually adheres to traditional republican ideology.


Was just listening to a past senator about this. Clinton took credit for just about everything that the GOP did. Sad really.



C4

[Safetyhit]

No big deal on a Govt ShutDown. I lived through one under Clinton (active duty at the time).

I think it would be good to shut things down for awhile.



C4


Well with that we can agree to disagree. Not so much because I fear a temporary shutdown, as actually I don't care if that happens at all.

You see the democrats have built and enabled a bomb in their back yard. Ted Cruz says he wants to keep it from blowing up, even though when it does it will kill only the enemy and his credibility while weakening them substantially.

However if you believe that the ACA will sustain itself successfully without intervention that is a different argument, but it clearly appears to be doomed.

[ABNAK]

That's correct, which is why they would need Republicans to delay it.

In doing so they will look reasonable, even though we all know that no matter how long you delay it you won't ever be able to fix it.

No matter how long you delay lunch you can't fix a soup sandwich.

I say let the Democrats try...and boy will they look stupid but they won't be able to blame it on Republicans.

So if the implementation dates are written into the law, see to it that it is enacted on time. It will help us in the mid-terms next November.

You said it can't be fixed, so why the endless delay? Until and unless a new president and Congress re-writes it or cancels it it's here to stay (unfortunately). Don't allow the Dems to delay it so the pain isn't felt until after they get reelected. No, you wanted this for Amerika, you got it. Now do it and reap what you sow.

F*** looking "reasonable". The Dems never do. Back to that "fight them like they fight" theory. "Reasonable" is what has gotten the Republicans where they are now: weak, spineless, treading water trying to survive. Swing back damnit!

[Belmont31R]

Well with that we can agree to disagree. Not so much because I fear a temporary shutdown, as actually I don't care if that happens at all.

You see the democrats have built and enabled a bomb in their back yard. Ted Cruz says he wants to keep it from blowing up, even though when it does it will kill only the enemy and his credibility while weakening them substantially.

However if you believe that the ACA will sustain itself successfully without intervention that is a different argument, but it clearly appears to be doomed.


Everyone is going to be impacted by Obamacare. I don't see how letting it ruin us is worth saying 'I told you so!' To the Democrats then expecting a complete Republican take over.

[thopkins22]

Everyone is going to be impacted by Obamacare. I don't see how letting it ruin us is worth saying 'I told you so!' To the Democrats then expecting a complete Republican take over.

Bingo.

Maybe we should have let them pass the new AWB this year too...we'd really have them on the ropes then!:suicide2:

[RogerinTPA]

The Republican Party is weak not because of men like Cruz, Lee, and Paul.
It is weak because they lack the testicular fortitude to stand against the Liberals.
Too long the Liberals have controlled dialogue, controlled language.
The Republicans fear the left.
So the GOP has been moving further to the left.
McCain and Romney are both Statists.
The GOP is the cause of its own demise.

Agreed.

I applaud Cruz for addressing not only the failures of the Dems, but of the Republicans, and the legislative process as a whole. He's reminding them, in their face, that they aren't listening to the people and not being accountable. Maybe it will snap some of them out of their coma. As far as hurting the Republican party, I say no. It's division is cause by weak leadership, a lack of focus and vision. Have the guts to stand for what you believe or go home.

[Safetyhit]

Everyone is going to be impacted by Obamacare. I don't see how letting it ruin us is worth saying 'I told you so!' To the Democrats then expecting a complete Republican take over.


Can you define what you mean by "ruin us" specifically? Keep in mind it seems we are both talking about it imploding eventually, so what sort of ruin will occur in the interim?

[Belmont31R]

Can you define what you mean by "ruin us" specifically? Keep in mind it seems we are both talking about it imploding eventually, so what sort of ruin will occur in the interim?


People losing their insurance, people laid off or under employed, massive increase in medical costs, people getting hooked on the subsidies.


If Republicans are too scared to pull the rug out from under it now they will be far less likely to pull the rug when those 45 million people are getting subsidized insurance even if it ****s everyone else over.

Say they do take back control...the most they will do is a modest reform but the core of the law will remain.

[Safetyhit]

People losing their insurance, people laid off or under employed, massive increase in medical costs...

This is already happening and I doubt you don't well know it. That's the reason why it is destined to fail, subsidies or not.

And subsidies for the young who don't care about going to the doctor anyway will have a hard time competing with the countless individuals frustrated while waiting in line for treatments they need now.

It will be so bad an overhaul will happen, as the memory of free market healthcare will still be fresh in the minds of millions of voters.

[Belmont31R]

This is already happening and I doubt you don't well know it. That's the reason why it is destined to fail, subsidies or not.

And subsidies for the young who don't care about going to the doctor anyway will have a hard time competing with the countless individuals frustrated while waiting in line for treatments they need now.

It will be so bad an overhaul will happen, as the memory of free market healthcare will still be fresh in the minds of millions of voters.


More faith then I, and willing to sit by while all that happens seems ridiculous just for a gotcha moment the Republicans likely won't win anyways.

The Democrats had this planned out. They all know it's a failure. I doubt Republicans will return us to a free market system.

[ABNAK]

Everyone is going to be impacted by Obamacare. I don't see how letting it ruin us is worth saying 'I told you so!' To the Democrats then expecting a complete Republican take over.

I don't want to be misunderstood for what I replied to Gutshot John. My reason for seeing it implemented as written (the timeline) is I see it this way: if it is delayed, it won't be delayed indefinitely until a new POTUS and Congress undoes it. Obama will go balls to the wall to implement it right after any gains he makes in the 2014 midterms. Then he hopefully, from his perspective, gets a Democrat Congress for his last two years to wreak havoc (guns anyone?). After that he can't be reelected anyway and I'm sure he really doesn't give a damn about Dem Congress critters after their usefulness to him has expired. It's either gonna be implemented now or when it's politically expedient and advantageous to the Dems. Don't play that game!

I don't want to see it wreck our economy, but it is law. It's on the books unfortunately. It will NOT be delayed forever. Only until Dem political gains (if any) are made next year. I just don't think we should allow them to let it play out to their advantage.

If the ACA sucks as bad as everyone knows it will, and knowing eternal delay isn't realistic, it's better to reap whatever electoral gains we can to neuter Obama for his last two years. THEN perhaps we can undo it with a Republican POTUS and Congress (*maybe*). Other than that it's here to stay.

Unfotunately I think the writing is on the wall. Cruz is like Don Quiote fighting windmills but by damned I support him 100%!

[Pork Chop]

More faith then I, and willing to sit by while all that happens seems ridiculous just for a gotcha moment the Republicans likely won't win anyways.

The Democrats had this planned out. They all know it's a failure. I doubt Republicans will return us to a free market system.

Holy shit, this!

We have one hope of retaining a still somewhat free market healthcare system. Once ACA crushes it (and alot of us with it) the "overhaul" you think is coming after will be nothing more than political posturing to capture power after the finger pointing. It won't be a reset. It won't be improved. It'll be tweaked just enough to relieve the pain long enough for an election cycle.

How the hell can everyone NOT see that? The GOP WON'T fix it later. They won't get rid of it. They'll twist it around to benefit the party, not the country.

Thank god for people like Cruz who will at least row upstream against both sides. Maybe his ambition IS to be President. Is that so bad? A guy who gave the good ole boy network the middle finger?

[Safetyhit]

The Democrats had this planned out. They all know it's a failure.

See when this sort of thing comes into play you lose me. Not enough money in the world to sell me on this.

Guess we'll just have to see how it plays out, simple bystanders that we are.

[thopkins22]

Everyone thought that Social Security would be a short lived program too, they knew that if left unchecked it would become unsustainable. How did that work out a century later?

If this isn't stopped now, it's not going away until we get single payer. I'll make a $100 bet on that right now with the first person to step up.

As it is right now, you should all buy stock in insurance companies, since this law is one giant welfare check to them. Written and lobbied for by insurance companies...but I guarantee you it's being viewed as a stepping stone by D's.

[Belmont31R]

See when this sort of thing comes into play you lose me. Not enough money in the world to sell me on this.

Guess we'll just have to see how it plays out, simple bystanders that we are.


They have said Obamacare is basically the vehicle to single payer.

http://youtu.be/Kvg8qVKZYuM

http://youtu.be/SXgSKwYMnWo

[scottryan]

See when this sort of thing comes into play you lose me. Not enough money in the world to sell me on this.

Guess we'll just have to see how it plays out, simple bystanders that we are.

The fact that you don't know this is troubling. The hood rat has admitted this is the vehicle to single payer. This was all part if the plan. Go watch the videos of it on YouTube.

[Renegade]

He is clearly helping by exposing the hypocrisy of the Establishment RINOs.

Nothing Cruz did this week will change the results, but Americans now have a clearer picture of who is for/against ObamaCare.

[Safetyhit]

The fact that you don't know this is troubling. The hood rat has admitted this is the vehicle to single payer. This was all part if the plan. Go watch the videos of it on YouTube.

I'm well aware of the fact that from day one they wanted a single pay system and settled for what is now in place. But to believe that such a disastrous implementation of a more "diluted" version was considered as part of the plan, in other words a failed endeavor would enable more failure, is extremely questionable at best.

They did not plan on hearing of big companies publicly complain while reducing hours and staff. They did not anticipate the unions publicly turning on them. They thought it would work and eventually lead to even better, not infuriate and dissuade the masses.

[Doc Safari]

If you want to be realllly technical, the USA is a Federated Constitutional Republic.

If you want to REALLY be accurate the US has been an oligarchy for about the last ten years: controlled by a Congress and President that no longer fear the wrath of the electorate.

As for not opposing this and just letting it fail? I wonder where we'd be right now if George Washington et al had just said, "The British government has to go broke sooner or later. We don't need to do anything right now. Sooner or later it will fail and we will get our way."

[Belmont31R]

I'm well aware of the fact that from day one they wanted a single pay system and settled for what is now in place. But to believe that such a disastrous implementation of a more "diluted" version was considered as part of the plan, in other words a failed endeavor would enable more failure, is extremely questionable at best.

They did not plan on hearing of big companies publicly complain while reducing hours and staff. They did not anticipate the unions publicly turning on them. They thought it would work and eventually lead to even better, not infuriate and dissuade the masses.


It's in their own words Obamacare is the stepping stone to single payer. Can't force you to believe it, but when it happens don't say you weren't warned.

The reaction has no bearing on their intentions prior to passing it.

[Safetyhit]

As for not opposing this and just letting it fail? I wonder where we'd be right now if George Washington et al had just said, "The British government has to go broke sooner or later. We don't need to do anything right now. Sooner or later it will fail and we will get our way."

If there were true imminent signs that the British empire was about to collapse then the the revolution may well have been planned around that particular, relevant eventuality. In fact why wouldn't or shouldn't it have been?

[Doc Safari]

If there were true imminent signs that the British empire was about to collapse then the the revolution may well have been planned around that particular, relevant eventuality. In fact why wouldn't or shouldn't it have been?

That's not what I meant. I meant "what would have happened if the Founding Fathers had decided to do nothing until the British Empire was too weak to try to hold onto the colonies?"

In other words, we may be waiting a long, long time for Obamacare to go away just because it doesn't work.

[Safetyhit]

That's not what I meant. I meant "what would have happened if the Founding Fathers had decided to do nothing until the British Empire was too weak to try to hold onto the colonies?"

In other words, we may be waiting a long, long time for Obamacare to go away just because it doesn't work.

And my point is that I believe, based upon the documented reactions that we can all see if we look for them, that the ACA is doomed to become a miserable failure.

Have you read James Hoffa Jr's now widely reknown letter to the president and Pelosi?

[Doc Safari]

Have you read James Hoffa Jr's now widely reknown letter to the president and Pelosi?

I may have, but lately there's so much information out there that I couldn't quote it to you. I assume it has to do with the unions being pissed, right?

I'm convinced Obamacare will fail, but I want the opposing side to come up with a solution and not just gloat over the failure.

[Palmguy]

I'm well aware of the fact that from day one they wanted a single pay system and settled for what is now in place. But to believe that such a disastrous implementation of a more "diluted" version was considered as part of the plan, in other words a failed endeavor would enable more failure, is extremely questionable at best.

They did not plan on hearing of big companies publicly complain while reducing hours and staff. They did not anticipate the unions publicly turning on them. They thought it would work and eventually lead to even better, not infuriate and dissuade the masses.

It might sound like a subtle distinction or splitting hairs, but they didn't just settle for what we have now. They claimed it's a stepping stone.

It's optimistic to think that the negative things you mention (reduction in hours, union backlash, etc) mean we'll return to the free market. Quite the contrary...those things, even if unintended, will be used to say further intervention is needed and that if we had single payer, those issues would go away.

[Belmont31R]

It might sound like a subtle distinction or splitting hairs, but they didn't just settle for what we have now. They claimed it's a stepping stone.

It's optimistic to think that the negative things you mention (reduction in hours, union backlash, etc) mean we'll return to the free market. Quite the contrary...those things, even if unintended, will be used to say further intervention is needed and that if we had single payer, those issues would go away.

The unions are upset because they didn't get the sweet heart deal they thought they were going to get. One of these unions quit the AFL-CIO because they weren't far left enough.

People are fools if they think the unions had a big change of heart and suddenly don't want gov in health care.

[Safetyhit]

The unions are upset because they didn't get the sweet heart deal they thought they were going to get. One of these unions quit the AFL-CIO because they weren't far left enough.

Let me translate this for you: The unions are upset because prices are spiking, hours are being reduced and in many cases the workers are losing their current insurer.

If this was part of the plan it was pathetically inept.

[Belmont31R]

Let me translate this for you: The unions are upset because prices are spiking, hours are being reduced and in many cases the workers are losing their current insurer.

If this was part of the plan it was pathetically inept.

Obama got reelected didn't he? Do you honestly believe the next people in line won't make more promises to them or that the unions will start voting for Republicans?

[scottryan]

And my point is that I believe, based upon the documented reactions that we can all see if we look for them, that the ACA is doomed to become a miserable failure.




It being a failure and it being repealed are not the same.

[Belmont31R]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/09/25/double-down-obamacare-will-increase-avg-individual-market-insurance-premiums-by-99-for-men-62-for-women/?partner=yahootix

[TAZ]

I think that hoping that the government fix for the government generated issues caused by ObamaCare is going to be better than ObamaCare or return us to a free market is naive. Rarely have these kinds of things gone the way you are hoping. Social Security is prime example: has that fix working out for us?? These are the same people who think that a shoot out in a gun free zone can be solved by more gun control laws.

IMO idiotic government regulations on the medical and insurance industry lead to the medical crisis we are faced with now. That crisis was "solved" by what everyone agrees is an even more idiotic plan that will eventually lead to a different and most likely worse crisis. Yet we feel comfy that that crisis will be effectively solved by the same group of moron who got us there to begin with. Really!?

[Doc Safari]

I think this country is on a path toward more and more people getting more and more from the taxpayers, and the only remedy is an all-encompassing "fail and reset".

Unfortunately, we may have to endure riots and a civil war as the "gimme" class learns to do without.

[Gutshot John]

Everyone thought that Social Security would be a short lived program too, they knew that if left unchecked it would become unsustainable.

Incorrect. Social Security was passed with broad bipartisan support. 6:1 Republicans voted for it in the House; 3:1 in the Senate.

That was not the case with Obamacare, indeed many of the people that are lambasted here for betraying Ted Cruz (McCain/Graham) fought hard against it. There wasn't a single Republican vote for it in either house.

SS has to be reformed but nobody knew where it would lead. Indeed at the beginning it's real purpose was to allow Seniors to pay for things like medications and the like, it was never meant as a retirement plan.

[scottryan]

It's not a hypothetical chain of events, that's how the legislative process works.

That's what HAS TO HAPPEN for a bill to be sent to the President's desk.

Clearly you're incapable of arguing in good faith, so I'll not waste any more time on such willful ignorance.




Your "grand plan" is analogous to a person going into bankruptcy for the sake of learning how to manage money, hoping things will get better next time.

The conservatives will get blamed no matter what happens. They will get blamed when the government is shut down. The liberals will blame the conservatives, big pharma, big insurance, and greedy doctors when obamacare fails. Then will we have full out socialized medicine.

As usual, establishment RINOs like yourself have outthought themselves on taking the high road or proving a point which doesn’t matter and nobody cares about. All the while making every excuse possible why the conservative agenda can't be moved forward.

Try not to outthink yourself.

[Safetyhit]

Try not to outthink yourself.


To me the definition of outthinking one's self would be to spend an exorbitant amount of effort, at considerable risk, in sinking and already doomed ship. But of course that's just crazy old me.

[Belmont31R]

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/09/23/pelosi-death-of-40-hour-work-week-means-freedom-to-follow-your-passion-83916

[Safetyhit]

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/09/23/pelosi-death-of-40-hour-work-week-means-freedom-to-follow-your-passion-83916

She is utterly horrendous, always has been. One could never imagine what might have successfully spawned such a clueless voting base but we all know that when she talks it means Jack Shit.

Only enhances the point. Let the likes of her lead the way. It will take anywhere from one to two decades for the democrats to recover. This coming from someone who takes nothing for granted at this point.

Don't you see, they are driving us into the ground with smiles on their phony faces saying all is well. This is exactly what we want in order for real change to occur.

[TAZ]

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/09/23/pelosi-death-of-40-hour-work-week-means-freedom-to-follow-your-passion-83916

Ahhhh the delusions of a syphilitic mind.

Can I please have some cake with my 20 hr work week. Oh wait you want me to pay for it. WTF???

[Belmont31R]

She is utterly horrendous, always has been. One could never imagine what might have successfully spawned such a clueless voting base but we all know that when she talks it means Jack Shit.

Only enhances the point. Let the likes of her lead the way. It will take anywhere from one to two decades for the democrats to recover. This coming from someone who takes nothing for granted at this point.

Don't you see, they are driving us into the ground with smiles on their phony faces saying all is well. This is exactly what we want in order for real change to occur.


She was Speaker when Obamacare was passed, and is still the minority leader. Obama won reelection. I don't have the faith you do that Republicans are going to successfully retake the government.

I'd prefer not to be driven into the ground in the meantime, get 10's of millions hooked on subsidies, and endure that so the GOP has a shot at a complete takeover. The same folks who gave us Part D, NCLB, DHS, Patriot Act, FISA, TSA, and doubled the debt.

But hey...at least the GOP is slightly less sucky than the Democrats.

[SteyrAUG]

The Republican Party is weak not because of men like Cruz, Lee, and Paul.
It is weak because they lack the testicular fortitude to stand against the Liberals.
Too long the Liberals have controlled dialogue, controlled language.
The Republicans fear the left.
So the GOP has been moving further to the left.
McCain and Romney are both Statists.
The GOP is the cause of its own demise.

10/10

[thopkins22]

The liberals will blame...big pharma, big insurance....

I don't disagree with the substance of your post, but big pharma and insurance deserve a huge amount of blame for this. They wrote the law, they lobbied for it with huge amounts of money, and they screwed us all.

It makes business sense in the very short term view. "We're missing out on billions of dollars worth of business, let's make it a crime to not have insurance and buy our products."

[Safetyhit]

10/10


Not sure how the comment could rate so high when no one anywhere said the Republican Party is weak due to the likes of a Ted Cruz. Was never even remotely implied that I saw.

Men like him strengthen us, but again I fall back on the initial premise of the argument. Unless you believe that the end result of a failed ACA will be inadequate healthcare forever as a result he is still simply taking an unnecessary gamble on our behalf. But since so many are complacent with that we'll just see how it all plays out.

Make no mistake, I like the man and everything he stands for. It's all about the time and place discrepancy, period.

[Belmont31R]

Not sure how the comment could rate so high when no one anywhere said the Republican Party is weak due to the likes of a Ted Cruz. Was never even remotely implied that I saw.

Men like him strengthen us, but again I fall back on the initial premise of the argument. Unless you believe that the end result of a failed ACA will be inadequate healthcare forever as a result he is still simply taking an unnecessary gamble on our behalf. But since so many are complacent with that we'll just see how it all plays out.

Make no mistake, I like the man and everything he stands for. It's all about the time and place discrepancy, period.


But it's not gambling that Republicans will at a future point take back the gov and completely rid us of Obamacare?

What exactly did Cruz gamble here?

[Safetyhit]

But it's not gambling that Republicans will at a future point take back the gov and completely rid us of Obamacare?

What exactly did Cruz gamble here?

Already clarified. Numerous times.

[Belmont31R]

Nothing was clarified. Some people have a guess that Republicans will take control, and say that we should sit by and watch our healthcare get destroyed.

[thopkins22]

Incorrect. Social Security was passed with broad bipartisan support. 6:1 Republicans voted for it in the House; 3:1 in the Senate.

I didn't say it wasn't bipartisan. I said it was expected to be a short lived program...and I'm correct.

FDR designed it as a contributory pension to help folks who lost their savings in the depression. It wasn't expected to be permanent, and it wasn't expected to become the retirement plan of many.

If you're going to tell me I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong about something I actually said.

[Nightvisionary]

He should stop rocking the boat. There is absolutley no need to upset the status quo in Congress and the Republican party. Everything is working great so why make waves?

[Iraqgunz]

John,

Please correct me if I am wrong. The original use of the SSN was identify those who paid into the system and it was never intended to be used and abused.

It was never intended to be used for credit purposes or other means of identification.

Like all great things, the idea was probably good but it morphed into something much worse.


Incorrect. Social Security was passed with broad bipartisan support. 6:1 Republicans voted for it in the House; 3:1 in the Senate.

That was not the case with Obamacare, indeed many of the people that are lambasted here for betraying Ted Cruz (McCain/Graham) fought hard against it. There wasn't a single Republican vote for it in either house.

SS has to be reformed but nobody knew where it would lead. Indeed at the beginning it's real purpose was to allow Seniors to pay for things like medications and the like, it was never meant as a retirement plan.

[Irish]

This was sent to me in an email. I haven't researched the facts and can't verify the claims but if true this is pretty interesting.

Obama has no liking for Cruz, the least reason of which is because Cruz is Republican. Here are a few other factors: Cruz is academically superior. Cruz graduated cum laude from Princeton. Not the case for Obama. Cruz graduated magna cum laude from Harvard Law School. Not so for Obama. Cruz's mental prowness has been recognized by Allan Dershowitz (who by all accounts is a bigger liberal than Obama) who said that Cruz is one of the most brilliant legal minds that he has ever seen. His actual quote was that "Cruz was off-the-charts brilliant." Not so Obama. Cruz clerked for the Chief Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court, Justice William Renquist, one of the most coveted positions for any young lawyer right out of law school. Not so Obama. The liberal tin horns in Washington along with the liberal media try to tout Cruz as some kind of nut.

Perhaps Obama and the other libs don't like him because he worked on the Florida lawsuit for George W. Bush against Gore. Perhaps it is because Cruz is a Baptist. Perhaps it is because Cruz's wife worked for Condoleezza Rice in the White House and also as one of those horrible investment bankers in New York. Perhaps it's because Cruz ran his Senate campaign as a Republican and still garnered 40% of the hispanic vote in Texas. Perhaps its because Cruz is against same-sex "marriage." For whatever reason, Obama seems jealous of Cruz's legal successes. What has Obama done in the legal profession? Ans.: community organization in one of the most God forsaken cities in the world. Obama was not a professor at the University of Chicago as many of his supporters dishonestly tout, but was a "guest lecturer," an enormous difference.

This brief video of Cruz's father is amazing-- it is a must watch. Indeed, every true American should have an opportunity to watch this.

Ted Cruz is a Texas Senator. His Dad may have just established himself as one more reason for Obama to dislike Texas. Please take the time to watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0Ym4Xt0T6fM

[brickboy240]

The new "gauge" to tell whether a politician is someone we should support is by how much the left and big media dog on him.

If big media is breaking their necks to vilify the guy...chances are he is doing great work.

If big media likes him (like McCain or Christie) then you know he is not in our best interest at all.

-brickboy240

[HackerF15E]

The more Cruz is made out to be "crazy", the more we the citizens of this country have reason to listen to what he thinlks.

As was mentioned, Cruz is far from crazy -- is actually extremely bright and well thought with his logic. Even dyed-in-the-wool leftists who saw him argue in front of the SCOTUS acknowledge and respect his legal prowess.

I don't agree with all of his positions by a long shot, but between he and Rand Paul, we actually have some Congressmen who are willing to speak truth and quite vocally go against the grain in Washington.

[skydivr]

I actually think Cruz believes (as I do) that Obamacare is one of those 'tipping points' that fundamentally changes the US (and not for the better). And as a principled man, he feels morally obligated to do WHAT HE CAN to fight it.

I don't think he hurt himself ONE BIT. In fact, I think he may have just put himself into play for the nomination. The Conservatives desperately NEED a man of PRINCIPLE, like Reagan. Way to go Ted....

[polymorpheous]

I actually think Cruz believes (as I do) that Obamacare is one of those 'tipping points' that fundamentally changes the US (and not for the better). And as a principled man, he feels morally obligated to do WHAT HE CAN to fight it.

I don't think he hurt himself ONE BIT. In fact, I think he may have just put himself into play for the nomination. The Conservatives desperately NEED a man of PRINCIPLE, like Reagan. Way to go Ted....

Yet we will get Christie.

[brickboy240]

Anyone remember back in 2006 when economist Peter Schiff was all over the cable financial programs? He was warning everyone about Lehman Bros. and how the housing market was just a bubble and it was going to implode?

Go back and look at You Tube...the vids are still there to see. Ben Stein, Jim Cramer and all the "experts" were laughing at Schiff. They called him "paranoid" and a kook and that he was "wasting his time" by blabbering on about how this was all going to go down.

Well..today...can we honestly say he was "wasting his time" or "just trying to get attention?"

Not really.

Flash forward to Ted Cruz.

Cruz's action was less of a publicity stunt and more of a warning. Of course big media, the Dems and others are going to say bad things about what he did.

However, wait a year or two THEN go back and look at the You tube vids of his speeches and see if Cruz was indeed just wasting time for no reason.

I would be willing to bet he was right on the money about Obamacare and what it will do to America.

Once again...Americans were warned of impending doom and they just laughed it off.

That is the real tragedy.

-brickboy240

[THCDDM4]

Yet we will get Christie.

I cannot stand Christie! He is shite.

That said, The GOP will hand him the nomination; sadly.

When that happens thay are going to alienate about 25-33% of their voter base.

I've spoken with many a conservative here in CO and in other states and they are tired of the GOP playing to lose, playing right into the hands of the Democrats and pushing forward a lame duck/centrist nominee instead of a true conservative.

McCain, Romney, even Bush- they were all lame duck idiots.

I would gladly vote for the likes of Cruz or Paul or Lee. they're are amongst the very few politicians out there that have the ideas that would do anything positive for this nation and the balls to actually go against the grain of the establishment lifer dick heads who have ravaged this country.

I was very pleased with Ted Cruz and his filibuster- regardless of strategy- he said what needed to be said, and actually took a stand.

If Christie gets the GOP nomination (99% Certain) it all but assures a Democrat POTUS for another 4 years after Dear Leader Omao is out.

If we don't do something soon to reign in our out of control monster government and their insistence/persistence on weakening us on all fronts, this country will be lost...

ETA:
One only need to see how pissed the likes of Paul & Curz makes the media and both Repubs & Demo's to see they are doing the right things.

Every word Cruz said was spot on and something most politicians and media talking heads would not dare admit to the jelly fish masses.

[Safetyhit]

Anyone remember back in 2006 when economist Peter Schiff was all over the cable financial programs? He was warning everyone about Lehman Bros. and how the housing market was just a bubble and it was going to implode?

Go back and look at You Tube...the vids are still there to see. Ben Stein, Jim Cramer and all the "experts" were laughing at Schiff. They called him "paranoid" and a kook and that he was "wasting his time" by blabbering on about how this was all going to go down.


I remember this very well in fact. In June of '06 I was released from a six-figure job doing land acquisitions for a fortune 500 builder (K. Hov) and spent the following months watching closely at what was happening both with housing and the stock market in general.

He was ridiculed and he was literally laughed at, yet I knew he was on to something because all the builders stopped selling houses then and many of us feared we were taking part in a housing bubble before I and many of my peers with other builders were let go. It was an early sign, the lack of need for any new land, within the industry that things were about to go down and down fast.

That said I'm really not sure the two circumstances can be compared, as many such as myself don't doubt that the ACA can hurt us in the short run. It's the long term goal, the eventual "successful" outcome, that is critical here.

Here is an excerpt from Hoffa's letter I mentioned prior. Tell me this isn't a disaster waiting to happen, one which could destroy the credibility of the democratic party for years to come:

"Dear Leader Reid and Leader Pelosi:

When you and the President sought our support for the Affordable Care Act (ACA), you pledged that if we liked the health plans we have now, we could keep them. Sadly, that promise is under threat. Right now, unless you and the Obama Administration enact an equitable fix, the ACA will shatter not only our hard-earned health benefits, but destroy the foundation of the 40 hour work week that is the backbone of the American middle class.

Like millions of other Americans, our members are front-line workers in the American economy. We have been strong supporters of the notion that all Americans should have access to quality, affordable health care. We have also been strong supporters of you. In campaign after campaign we have put boots on the ground, gone door-to-door to get out the vote, run phone banks and raised money to secure this vision.

Now this vision has come back to haunt us....

Time is running out: Congress wrote this law; we voted for you. We have a problem; you need to fix it. The unintended consequences of the ACA are severe. Perverse incentives are already creating nightmare scenarios...

On behalf of the millions of working men and women we represent and the families they support, we can no longer stand silent in the face of elements of the Affordable Care Act that will destroy the very health and wellbeing of our members along with millions of other hardworking Americans...

There is much more: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/09/25/we-have-a-problem-heres-the-anti-obamacare-letter-from-union-president-jimmy-hoffa-that-ted-cruz-keeps-quoting/

[rljatl]

Letting it implode is not smart. The way Washington tries to fix things will only make it even worse.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2

[brickboy240]

Washington does not "fix" anything.

-brickboy240

[NWPilgrim]

the unions thought they were driving the bus with their support. They were all for ACA as long as they didn't have to buy into it! Now they are beginning to realize they are cannon fodder like everyone else. Thank you for your support; now sit down, shut up and hold on.

Many special interests have not yet, or are just beginning to realize there is a bigger game afoot. It is not about lobbying, getting what you want, and the biggest donor gets favors. that is still part of it but it is window dressing.

The beast that is being unveiled is the globalist power mongers that want to rule everyone with an iron fist and suck our blood. They will make use of any special interest that will support the next ratchet in the wheel of fascism. Does it further the police state? Good. Does it allow taking more money from citizens and handing it over to favored banks and corps? Good.

There is only two choices any more: Fascism/police state/tyranny, or freedom. Any concession to the ruling elite will be taken as acquiescence.

Cruz may be tilting at windmills but is that not more noble than to play along with the beast and hope it blows up? If we leave it to the elite, it will NOT blow up. Any crisis will be used as an excuse to tighten the control EVEN MORE. That is the whole point of ACA!! It was never to have a fair, affordable health care system. It was to make it so unwieldy and costly that people would beg for the federal govt to step in and take over all health care.

[brickboy240]

Ahh yes, but the insurance companies will make their money on the front end of the ACA.

Just like the mortgage companies and realtors made THEIR money on the rise of the housing bubble...then bailed out before it blew up...so will the insurance companies. They will make their money then get out of the healthcare part of the insurance biz.

THAT will leave everyone racing to the govt care system in the end.

Everyone makes their money on the front side...then bails and leaves the ordinary citizen hanging.

Nice, huh?

-brickboy240

[Safetyhit]

Letting it implode is not smart. The way Washington tries to fix things will only make it even worse.

You may be 100% correct, that would likely be problematic. But the assumption, which is just that, is that the industry will be turned back over to the free market where it belongs. I honestly have a hard time believing Republicans will simply look to expand or refine government healthcare when almost all of them were and still are against the disastrous concept.

No one here knows what will eventually happen, all we can do is play the odds. My bookie says that the ACA will only continue to damage the left until it is either nullified or drastically revamped and personally I like those odds.

I desperately want to see the democrats humiliated. I want to see them hurt. I want to see them finally held accountable, this to the extent that they have no choice but to relent and say "We had your best interests in mind but inadvertently made a terrible mistake. This will not work the way we hoped it would."

Or maybe even better let them deny deny the reality into their oblivion. Don't care how this ends up so long as the far left is at the far bottom.

[ABNAK]

Any "compromise" on the budget to avert a shutdown should include:

**No waivers for anyone or any group, to include Congress

**Either the WHOLE thing gets delayed or the WHOLE thing gets implemented as per the timeframe written into the law




If there is a shit sandwich to be eaten every swinging dick eligible should have to take a big bite. If there is one thing that will awaken the idiotic, sheeple f***s in this country it's pain. It will stab through American Idol and NFL Foootball. Let them feel what they clamored for. Only then will an outcry begin to roll things back, but not until that point. Sad, but that is what it will take for the arseholes in this (formerly) great country to wake up.

I'm coming at this from a different angle than most of you guys. I'm all about getting remedial to prove a point and *educate*. "Ahh, THAT'S what you meant!" You wanted it, now you got it. Don't like it, huh? Well now use that same retarded zeal you had in the voting booth in 2008 and 2012 and do something about it (hint: 2014 and 2016).

[NWPilgrim]

Any "compromise" on the budget to avert a shutdown should include:

**No waivers for anyone or any group, to include Congress

**Either the WHOLE thing gets delayed or the WHOLE thing gets implemented as per the timeframe written into the law




If there is a shit sandwich to be eaten every swinging dick eligible should have to take a big bite. If there is one thing that will awaken the idiotic, sheeple f***s in this country it's pain. It will stab through American Idol and NFL Foootball. Let them feel what they clamored for. Only then will an outcry begin to roll things back, but not until that point. Sad, but that is what it will take for the arseholes in this (formerly) great country to wake up.

I'm coming at this from a different angle than most of you guys. I'm all about getting remedial to prove a point and *educate*. "Ahh, THAT'S what you meant!" You wanted it, now you got it. Don't like it, huh? Well now use that same retarded zeal you had in the voting booth in 2008 and 2012 and do something about it (hint: 2014 and 2016).

Great post. Maybe post of the year!

I laugh hysterically at all the special interest groups that supported this and now want waivers. I want a t-shirt: "Eat your shit sandwich!".

I filed "Waiting for Republicans to return us to the free market when ACA implodes" in my file folder marked "Unicorn shitting Skittles buys Brooklyn Bridge for Arizona waterfront".

[jpmuscle]

Letting it implode is not smart. The way Washington tries to fix things will only make it even worse.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2

Except the faster it implodes the faster they get to single payer.. that was and always has been their plan from day one.

[brickboy240]

The bad thing about letting it implode is that those that voted FOR it and brought it forward will most likely take ZERO blame.

Nor will big media accurately say who's really at fault.

Most likely, they will falsely blame it on the GOP or Cruz or some other boogeyman.

When bad things happen as the result of bad liberal policies...they rarely are seen as the cause of said disaster. Example: what happened to Detroit.

-brickboy240

[thopkins22]

Remy's new Obamacare song is GLORIOUS. A must watch in my opinion.

Also, folks have taken to the streets here in Houston. Probably ten or fifteen people on several corners just down the street with various phone numbers of people that need called and pressured to defund Obamacare or we'll defund them.


Remy: Obamacare Video Contest Song (http://youtu.be/gtyf7UHXNTM)

[Caeser25]

Anyone remember back in 2006 when economist Peter Schiff was all over the cable financial programs? He was warning everyone about Lehman Bros. and how the housing market was just a bubble and it was going to implode?

Go back and look at You Tube...the vids are still there to see. Ben Stein, Jim Cramer and all the "experts" were laughing at Schiff. They called him "paranoid" and a kook and that he was "wasting his time" by blabbering on about how this was all going to go down.

Well..today...can we honestly say he was "wasting his time" or "just trying to get attention?"

Not really.

Flash forward to Ted Cruz.

Cruz's action was less of a publicity stunt and more of a warning. Of course big media, the Dems and others are going to say bad things about what he did.

However, wait a year or two THEN go back and look at the You tube vids of his speeches and see if Cruz was indeed just wasting time for no reason.

I would be willing to bet he was right on the money about Obamacare and what it will do to America.

Once again...Americans were warned of impending doom and they just laughed it off.

That is the real tragedy.

-brickboy240

Even worse. It happens, over, and over, and over again.

[Caeser25]

Except the faster it implodes the faster they get to single payer.. that was and always has been their plan from day one.

It was never meant to fix it. Just crash it. To fix it, all they had to do was allow you to buy insurance across state lines, with that much competition, the problem would've solved itself.

[Safetyhit]

So far Senator Cruz's campaign has not yielded a single positive outcome than I can see. Sure he stood for his principals and that is always admirable, but in doing so he seems to have missed the big picture. The ACA is moving forward as it would have anyway and now poll after poll shows record disdain for Republicans over the shutdown.

Meantime the Obamacare rollout was beyond disastrous with not even a single confirmed case of anyone in the country having been able to enroll. Multiple reporters in various states documented spending hours being run in circles only to fail in the end. But thanks to Cruz the story is a distant second to the shutdown and all of it sad bickering at America's expense.

Feel free to tell me what I'm missing, but from this one vantage point it looks like his noble endeavor has indeed backfired.

[TAZ]

Like it on not I elected Cruz to do just what he did. Wanna keep electing Progressive compromisers who can get something done... fine, but don't bitch when the whole country ends up like Cali, or NJ or NY.

As for the Obutt****Care launch fiasco. It could have melted down the whole internet and not a soul in the MSM would have made a big deal out of it. The fiasco doesn't fit the narrative so it will be ignored. That is NOT the Republican's not the Tea Party's fault. It's also not Bush's fault.

[Safetyhit]

Like it on not I elected Cruz to do just what he did. Wanna keep electing Progressive compromisers who can get something done... fine, but don't bitch when the whole country ends up like Cali, or NJ or NY.

As for the Obutt****Care launch fiasco. It could have melted down the whole internet and not a soul in the MSM would have made a big deal out of it. The fiasco doesn't fit the narrative so it will be ignored. That is NOT the Republican's not the Tea Party's fault. It's also not Bush's fault.


Full of misinformation here. A good negotiator and strategizer is hardly a "progressive". And perhaps you have missed a number of clips with scathing criticism of the ACA from the left, which would be doubled if the other crap wasn't happening. Want me to post some for you?

[CarlosDJackal]

I kinda think that Ted Cruz is doing the right thing by holding to the standard that those who voted him into office is expecting. Maybe if more politicians were to have this type of dedication we would not be in this mess. JM2CW.

[Safetyhit]

I kinda think that Ted Cruz is doing the right thing by holding to the standard that those who voted him into office is expecting. Maybe if more politicians were to have this type of dedication we would not be in this mess. JM2CW.


Both yes and no. In other words what's more important, winning a battle or winning the war?

[skydivr]

Both yes and no. In other words what's more important, winning a battle or winning the war?

In Battle, that depends on who is standing behind the Line of Contact....you family maybe. This is a battle worth dying in place for. I admire Ted for sticking with his principles.

[montanadave]

Staking out an idealogical position without proposing in practicable means to achieve your desired goal is nothing more than self-promoting demagoguery.

[Armati]

Ted Cruz is doing what the Gop Establishment won't do. Many of the "moderate" Gops use to be Dems (keep that in mind). The rest of the Gops are big business internationalist that continue to advance the Globalist Agenda (CFR, Trilats, International banks, et. al.).

Obamacare will fail, and everyone will be put on Medicaid. When Medicaid fails, then we will move on a European style single payer. Give it about 20 years.

Right now the effective tax rate is around 60% for individuals. By 2050 it will be around 80%. Unless we return some fiscal sanity to the govt (currently unlikely) will continue to print money and the living conditions of individual citizens will continue to decline.

Read "Trickle Up Poverty" by Michael Savage - this is your past, present and future.

Anytime you feel a bit confused about things, go on YouTube and check out some of the old speeches by Ronald Reagan. You hear none of that coming out of the current GOP.

[Javelin]

This trickle up slavery needs to be squashed. The federal reserve currency is just that. Means nothing and I refuse to allow this country to turn folks into indentured servants to this system that has been run into the ground. It's time to stop it and Cruz is the only one willing to stand up to the machine that is Washington.

[Safetyhit]

Ted Cruz is doing what the Gop Establishment won't do. Many of the "moderate" Gops use to be Dems (keep that in mind). The rest of the Gops are big business internationalist that continue to advance the Globalist Agenda (CFR, Trilats, International banks, et. al.).

Obamacare will fail, and everyone will be put on Medicaid. When Medicaid fails, then we will move on a European style single payer. Give it about 20 years.

Right now the effective tax rate is around 60% for individuals. By 2050 it will be around 80%. Unless we return some fiscal sanity to the govt (currently unlikely) will continue to print money and the living conditions of individual citizens will continue to decline.

Read "Trickle Up Poverty" by Michael Savage - this is your past, present and future.

Anytime you feel a bit confused about things, go on YouTube and check out some of the old speeches by Ronald Reagan. You hear none of that coming out of the current GOP.


Yes, the current GOP is extremely flawed and Cruz can set powerful, positive examples. All I'm saying is that let him lead not just by example, but rather a wise, more strategized one in order to increase the likelihood of a more favorable long-term outcome.

[Armati]

Yes, the current GOP is extremely flawed...

It's not "flawed", it is dangerous. It is made up or moderate Dems from 15 years ago and Globalist Internationalist - i.e. men without a country. They are not Patriots and would sell their mother's gold teeth for a few shekels. You don't have a chance. If you are wondering why you don't hear any Patriotic rhetoric coming out of the Gops it is because they don't have any.

So we have a hand full of guys trying to do the right thing. Cruz and Rand Paul come to mind. The rest are triangulating how much money they can make out of this deal. Anyone who has spent the last 10 years in Congress is suspect.

It is not the time for strategic analysis. It is time to fight, and fight hard. The Tea Party exists because people are sick of the political calculations. If the Gops wonder why their poll numbers suck maybe it is because they are not offering any real solutions. By my reckoning (in all honesty) the current Gop message is "Yeah, Obamacare is bad but there is nothing we can do about it so why try?" Really? That's your platform? Good luck with that in 2014.

[montanadave]

Ted Cruz is the GOP Obama. He's a smart guy (Princeton, Harvard Law, clerked for Chief Justice Rehnquist), he's buffed his credentials on a host of signature conservative issues while Solicitor General in Texas, and is a Tea Party darling. Cruz is a skilled orator and knows how to deliver a populist message to stoke the base.

Unfortunately, much like Obama, he doesn't appear to have the necessary skills to convert stump-speech rhetoric into meaningful legislative action and substantive policy changes. In short, Cruz appears to be long on talk and short on action.

Senator Cruz is the new kid on the block. He gives good speech. Time will tell if he's the real deal. I suspect many Cruz supporters will end up just as disillusioned as many of those who supported Obama.

[Armati]

Senator Cruz is the new kid on the block. He gives good speech. Time will tell if he's the real deal.

As opposed to the rest of the Gops who sit there, do nothing, and manage the decline of America?

That will be some campaign platform, "Vote for me, I don't rock the boat!"

Here, this guy gave a good speech too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi3x7mmywDE

Sounds a lot like a current event does it not? Where is the current Gop who is even TALKING like this?

[skydivr]

I'm not sure I'd compare Cruz to Obama...I could offer differences, but I'll keep it simple - Cruz can actually speak coherently without a teleprompter...

[jpmuscle]

Ted Cruz is the GOP Obama. He's a smart guy (Princeton, Harvard Law, clerked for Chief Justice Rehnquist), he's buffed his credentials on a host of signature conservative issues while Solicitor General in Texas, and is a Tea Party darling. Cruz is a skilled orator and knows how to deliver a populist message to stoke the base.

Unfortunately, much like Obama, he doesn't appear to have the necessary skills to convert stump-speech rhetoric into meaningful legislative action and substantive policy changes. In short, Cruz appears to be long on talk and short on action.

Senator Cruz is the new kid on the block. He gives good speech. Time will tell if he's the real deal. I suspect many Cruz supporters will end up just as disillusioned as many of those who supported Obama.

Difference being Cruz earned his creds. Not so much with Obama regardless of what he says to the contrary. As to whether or not Cruz will have any staying power and if his message will continue to resonate that depends primarily on the support he receives, ie. us not bitching about him doing more damage than good. The only people that will ever change anything is we the people, period. The silent majority either comes together and stands together or we fail, it is as simple as that.

Personally I think the most valid indicator of how big of a threat Cruz represents to both the left and the GOP establishment is how they try to vilify, crucify, and demonize him as person and politician. If he wasn't a threat they wouldn't mention is name at all, but they do so why is that again?

And at any rate if not Cruz then who else?

[Belmont31R]

I voted to repeal the ACA. Don't like it go suck up to your RINO.

[Safetyhit]

I voted to repeal the ACA. Don't like it go suck up to your RINO.


That statement was beneath you. I could get into it's blatant simplicity accompanied by inaccuracy but why bother.

At the very least I'll suggest you refresh your memory regarding the term "effective strategy".

[ABNAK]

Right now the effective tax rate is around 60% for individuals. By 2050 it will be around 80%. Unless we return some fiscal sanity to the govt (currently unlikely) will continue to print money and the living conditions of individual citizens will continue to decline.



For SOME of us who actually pay taxes that is. Remember, roughly half this country has no federal income tax burden and like any other entitlement program I don't see the EITC going away. So, that ever-increasing burden will be borne by the same schleps who shoulder it now.

[Safetyhit]

For SOME of us who actually pay taxes that is. Remember, roughly half this country has no federal income tax burden and like any other entitlement program I don't see the EITC going away. So, that ever-increasing burden will be borne by the same schleps who shoulder it now.

You mean poor people are exempt from paying property tax and retail sales tax at the store?

[ABNAK]

You mean poor people are exempt from paying property tax and retail sales tax at the store?

I specifically said "federal income tax burden", didn't I? I pay those other taxes too (so don't bring them up 'cause it's a wash), but ALSO federal income tax which they don't.

You are squarely hitting some Dem talking points this morning, aren't you? You are confirming that what many think politically about your region of the country may be quite accurate. Christie fan?

[Safetyhit]

I specifically said "federal income tax burden", didn't I? I pay those other taxes too (so don't bring them up 'cause it's a wash), but ALSO federal income tax which they don't.

You are squarely hitting some Dem talking points this morning, aren't you? You are confirming that what many think politically about your region of the country may be quite accurate. Christie fan?

Spare me the baseless accusations. Perhaps I should be asking you if you split your two-ply toilet paper to think you've doubled your product. Trust me I know your type and am fully unimpressed.

What's even more laughable is while you cry about the poor getting a federal tax break any number of large corporations get breaks that make them pale in comparison. Bottom line is the poor pay taxes too. Deal with it.

[BBossman]

You mean poor people are exempt from paying property tax and retail sales tax at the store?

And most of what they pay is offset by the various federal deductions and tax credits. I've seen it, its not that they have zero federal tax burden, but that they end up on the positive side.

[Gutshot John]

And most of what they pay is offset by the various federal deductions and tax credits.

Uhm...you do realize that those only apply to income tax.

There are no federal tax credits or deductions on either sales or property tax.

[BBossman]

Uhm...you do realize that those only apply to income tax.

There are no federal tax credits or deductions on either sales or property tax.

Yes I realize that, but if you receive a federal "refund" check for $5000, that goes a LONG way to offset any local taxes.

[Gutshot John]

Yes I realize that, but if you receive a federal "refund" check for $5000, that goes a LONG way to offset any local taxes.

Who is getting a refund check for $5000?

[BBossman]

Who is getting a refund check for $5000?

My niece, she is single, 3 children, works a minimum wage job because, well, she's pretty much worthless. For 2012, with various deductions and tax credits, she received a "refund check" for $5800. Her federal tax withholdings were just over $4800.

She not only payed no federal income tax, but came out ahead.

Now figure in her state subsidized daycare, EBT, energy assistance, housing assistance... its pays to be "poor".

[Gutshot John]

My niece, she is single, 3 children, works a minimum wage job because, well, she's pretty much worthless. For 2012, with various deductions and tax credits, she received a "refund check" for $5800. Her federal tax withholdings were just over $4800.

She not only payed no federal income tax, but came out ahead.

Now figure in her state subsidized daycare, EBT, energy assistance, housing assistance... its pays to be "poor".

Your numbers don't seem to make sense so I'm skeptical your information is correct but I reserve the right to be wrong.

Are you her accountant?

If her witholding was $4800, she's making much more than minimum wage if she's claiming deductions like children.

The child tax credit is available to everyone and often people (who aren't so bright) pay too much withholding because they want a nice check so that would explain why she's getting so much back.

That said, this has nothing to do with property/income taxes.

[khc3]

EITC.

[khc3]

Spare me the baseless accusations. Perhaps I should be asking you if you split your two-ply toilet paper to think you've doubled your product. Trust me I know your type and am fully unimpressed.

What's even more laughable is while you cry about the poor getting a federal tax break any number of large corporations get breaks that make them pale in comparison. Bottom line is the poor pay taxes too. Deal with it.

Corporations don't pay taxes.

[montanadave]

Corporations don't pay taxes.

Seriously?

:suicide:

[Safetyhit]

Corporations don't pay taxes.


Research IRS form 1120 and get back to us.

By the way we all know that no 1099 individual cheats on his taxes.

These arguments, made while chastising the legitimate poor, are a joke. An embarrassment as well.

[khc3]

Seriously?

:suicide:

Seriously.

[khc3]

Research IRS form 1120 and get back to us.

By the way we all know that no 1099 individual cheats on his taxes.

These arguments are a joke.

Corps don't pay taxes; they collect them.

[khc3]

Research IRS form 1120 and get back to us.

By the way we all know that no 1099 individual cheats on his taxes.

These arguments, made while chastising the legitimate poor, are a joke. An embarrassment as well.

Not a single person on this thread has "chastised the legitimate poor."

What a remarkably dishonest thing to say.