Arming All On Duty Marines At All Times

[platoonDaddy]

Gen. James Amos, Commandant of the United States Marine Corps, in a recent presentation called for several changes to institutional policies for the USMC.

Among those, arming all on duty marines, all the time.

http://gunssavelives.net/news/commandant-of-united-states-marine-corps-calls-for-arming-all-on-duty-marines-at-all-times/#

Edit: fuller article http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20130927/NEWS/309250037/Commandant-calls-new-crackdown-barracks-life-Marine-behavior

[theblackknight]

That's not what he called for, and there isn't enough resources to do that anyway.

sent from mah gun,using my sights

[BrigandTwoFour]

Amos doesn't have the authority.

Unless he convinces OSD to rescind DoD Policy Directive 5210.56 (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a272176.pdf), hoping that all Marines can be armed all the time just isn't going to happen. Not to mention the resource issues.

Here's the relevant passage from DoD policy dated 25 Feb 1992


It is DoD Policy:
1. To limit and control the carrying of firearms by DoD
military and civilian personnel. The authorization to carry
firearms shall be issued only to qualified personnel when there
is a reasonable expectation that life or DoD assets will be
jeopardized if firearms are not carried. Evaluation of the
necessity to carry a firearm shall be made considering this
expectation weighed apainst the possible consequences of
accidental or indiscriminate use of firearms. DoD personnel
regularly engaged in law enforcement or security duties shall be
armed. Procedures on authorization to carry and the carrying of
firearms are in enclosure

That passage taken in with the rest of the document make it pretty clear that the only people that DoD wants carrying on base are the security forces.

[ST911]

Walk through some MP/SFS/MA units and MCIO offices and see how many personnel are armed up. DOD isn't going to arm its LE back-office, much less the rest of its members.

[glocktogo]

Walk through some MP/SFS/MA units and MCIO offices and see how many personnel are armed up. DOD isn't going to arm its LE back-office, much less the rest of its members.

Exactly. They will never trust the rank and file with loaded arms stateside, except under rigidly controlled conditions.

[SeriousStudent]

I read both articles. Some okay, but still a lot of meh in there. Like most ALMAR's.

With all due respect to Commandant Amos, he's got a lot bigger fish to fry right now than moving NCO's back into the barracks, to keep an eye on the Lance Coolies and below.

[theblackknight]

I read both articles. Some okay, but still a lot of meh in there. Like most ALMAR's.

With all due respect to Commandant Amos, he's got a lot bigger fish to fry right now than moving NCO's back into the barracks, to keep an eye on the Lance Coolies and below.

Everyone knows that ensuring mutually assured celibacy (rovers on each floor) is how you stop rape out in town.

[RyanB]

Not all on duty Marines, just the ones on duty in the barracks, doing what I understand the Army calls staff duty.

That's how I understood it.

[Armati]

All military bases should be secured by armed service members - not DoD police or contract security.

Every unit should have an armed contingent of QRF (even if just one duty officer) and should have force protection ammo on hand in the event they have to lock down.

Most bases are very soft targets. Hope is not a method and we have not been seriously attacked because we are at war with morons. In the case of Hassan and Alexis only one shooter diverted the LE resources of an entire region. Imagine a single dedicated rifle team....

[theblackknight]

How exactly do you get "arming all on duty marines at all times" from

and the arming of all officers on duty and staff NCOs on duty at all times,???

[ABNAK]

So he basically wants a fireguard every night on every floor of every barracks? A CQ and runner for the whole barracks isn't enough? Kinda like bootcamp but for your entire non-NCO enlistment. Yeah that'll boost morale. :rolleyes:

The Marines, like any branch of the armed forces, is a reflection of society and the conditions (i.e. 12 years of war). They are not superhuman nor immune from the maladies of modern society.

With this crap and his order to "crush" the Taliban-pissing miscreants Amos sounds like what we frequently refer to as a "dick" (yeah, I'm well aware that he isn't there to win a popularity contest, but still....).

[Iraqgunz]

At a minimum why not allow at least some personnel or as suggested have a small contingent of armed Marines or personnel from all branches (on the perspective bases) for that matter?

It's obvious that "base security" or "police" aren't always enough just like in the civilian world.

[Nightvisionary]

What changed? In 1983 the Marine Corps barracks in Beirut Lebanon was truck bombed killing 241 Americans. The jihadists made it through the gate in part because the Marine guarding the perimeter were not permitted to have loaded weapons.

When Al Grey took over as Commandant in 1987 he required that all Marines on guard duty would perform that duty with loaded weapons. Whether it was guarding an armory, motor transport depot, or a supply warehouse in the U.S. or overseas we did it with at least a loaded magazines in the weapon and two spares in the pouch.

[ST911]

All military bases should be secured by armed service members - not DoD police or contract security.

What's your opposition to DOD police forces?

[Armati]

What's your opposition to DOD police forces?

What job are they doing that can't be done by MPs or other troops? Several installations are now (and have been) using troops to man the ECP. Troops routinely do this job overseas. It is a peacetime duty that translates directly to an operational skill set. Sentry duty is one of the oldest duties in the world. Someone has always manned a post. It is a duty as old as the Roman Army.

Truly the question is, why do we have DoD civilians and contractors doing jobs that use to be done by troops? We do not get good value for the money and miss an important training opportunity.

[SteveS]

What job are they doing that can't be done by MPs or other troops? Several installations are now (and have been) using troops to man the ECP. Troops routinely do this job overseas. It is a peacetime duty that translates directly to an operational skill set. Sentry duty is one of the oldest duties in the world. Someone has always manned a post. It is a duty as old as the Roman Army.

Truly the question is, why do we have DoD civilians and contractors doing jobs that use to be done by troops? We do not get good value for the money and miss an important training opportunity.
Unions???? or lobbying????

[glocktogo]

What changed? In 1983 the Marine Corps barracks in Beirut Lebanon was truck bombed killing 241 Americans. The jihadists made it through the gate in part because the Marine guarding the perimeter were not permitted to have loaded weapons.

When Al Grey took over as Commandant in 1987 he required that all Marines on guard duty would perform that duty with loaded weapons. Whether it was guarding an armory, motor transport depot, or a supply warehouse in the U.S. or overseas we did it with at least a loaded magazines in the weapon and two spares in the pouch.

I served under Gen Gray when he was over FMF Atlantic. He was a hell of a lot better Commandant than Amos could ever dream of being. :(

[Nightvisionary]

I served under Gen Gray when he was over FMF Atlantic. He was a hell of a lot better Commandant than Amos could ever dream of being. :(

I agree. Anytime you get an Air Wing Commandant it's bad for the Corps. The guy doesn't even have a Combat Action Ribbon. I have seen Lance Corporals with a more impressive ribbon rack.

[ST911]

What job are they doing that can't be done by MPs or other troops? Several installations are now (and have been) using troops to man the ECP. Troops routinely do this job overseas. It is a peacetime duty that translates directly to an operational skill set. Sentry duty is one of the oldest duties in the world. Someone has always manned a post. It is a duty as old as the Roman Army.

Truly the question is, why do we have DoD civilians and contractors doing jobs that use to be done by troops? We do not get good value for the money and miss an important training opportunity.

At the risk of thread drift...

Maintaining civilian DOD police forces offers a number of advantages. Members do not PCS, deploy, and have greater continuity than their military counterparts. With a focused LE mission, they also do not have their critical LE skill sets diluted by the many war-related tasks and missions that the military forces must train and sustain.

At CONUS installations, those LE skill sets tend to be greater importance and consumer-value than the others. Further, a professionally trained and focused police officer is more readily adapted to basic force protection tasks (such as entry control and security functions) than the more diversified military police force is adaptable to, and able to sustain, LE competencies.

This not to diminish the status or contributions of military police forces, but it is what it is. More has been asked of them than ever before, and their identifies are in a state of flux.

Likewise, nor will I suggest that DOD/individual service civilian police forces are a universal answer or perfect solution. They do bring much to the table when allowed to work as designed.

Contractors are a whole other conversation.

I suppose it depends on what you want forces capable of, and the quality of services required.

[theblackknight]

Do DOD police have to sit thru powerpoints on BBQ safety and which end of the bottle rocket makes the sparkly hot fire?

sent from mah gun,using my sights

[William B.]

At a minimum why not allow at least some personnel or as suggested have a small contingent of armed Marines or personnel from all branches (on the perspective bases) for that matter?

At my last duty station we had something like this. There were several non-MP NCO's (many with combat experience) armed with with M16's on our part of base at all times. If there was some sort of significant event, ceremony, etc. they would be in the vicinity. If not they would be patrolling around base on foot.

[ABNAK]

What changed? In 1983 the Marine Corps barracks in Beirut Lebanon was truck bombed killing 241 Americans. The jihadists made it through the gate in part because the Marine guarding the perimeter were not permitted to have loaded weapons.

When Al Grey took over as Commandant in 1987 he required that all Marines on guard duty would perform that duty with loaded weapons. Whether it was guarding an armory, motor transport depot, or a supply warehouse in the U.S. or overseas we did it with at least a loaded magazines in the weapon and two spares in the pouch.

That sad anniversary is about to hit 30 in a few weeks. I was in Infantry OSUT at Ft. Benning when that happened.

The bad guys have tried (especially in the last 12 years of war) to repeat that one big "score" of U.S. miltary casualties. Every single time they try it is far less than they prayed to Allah for and that is when they have had any "success" at all. Our force protection guidelines were profoundly influenced by the tragic events of 30 years ago.

[Irish]

I've been in Boston for the past week and stumbled on this...

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3548/2q3q.jpg

[dwhitehorne]

What changed? In 1983 the Marine Corps barracks in Beirut Lebanon was truck bombed killing 241 Americans. The jihadists made it through the gate in part because the Marine guarding the perimeter were not permitted to have loaded weapons.

When Al Grey took over as Commandant in 1987 he required that all Marines on guard duty would perform that duty with loaded weapons. Whether it was guarding an armory, motor transport depot, or a supply warehouse in the U.S. or overseas we did it with at least a loaded magazines in the weapon and two spares in the pouch.

This what I was wondering. When I was at Geiger and Schwab they use to lock us in the armory all night with a 45 and one mag of 7 rounds. We use to shoot pencils in the ceiling but we were armed. I also remember walking around the Disbursing at Geiger 4 hours at a time when the cash was in the building the night before payday. (before direct deposit) We had our M16's with 9 rounds in our mags. I remember the red painted wood block we had to put our rounds in for shift change.

We didn't have MP's at Geiger or Schwab. The duty company stood the gate and performed all the guard functions. Guard duty use to rotate between the different companies in the Regiment every few months. Do they not do this anymore? David

[Eurodriver]

We didn't have MP's at Geiger or Schwab. The duty company stood the gate and performed all the guard functions. Guard duty use to rotate between the different companies in the Regiment every few months. Do they not do this anymore? David

Civilian/DOD MPs guard the "main gate" that connects you to both Geiger and New River.

There are no guards at Geiger's gate anymore.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

QRF. Bases are targets, so have a QRF. Make it a a duty for companies that have too many PFC's. Send the PFC's to QRF Company for a rotation just like they did with maintenance company on Pendleton. Have a few different platoons around different areas on the base. And allow responsible Marine's to attend mandated CCW courses and carry on base. This could solve a lot of this issue.

[dwhitehorne]

Civilian/DOD MPs guard the "main gate" that connects you to both Geiger and New River.

There are no guards at Geiger's gate anymore.

Well hell I guess you don't have to climb under the fence anymore to avoid the post standers when stumbling back from the "Brown Bagger" or the "Drift Wood" :D David

[SeriousStudent]

QRF. Bases are targets, so have a QRF. Make it a a duty for companies that have too many PFC's. Send the PFC's to QRF Company for a rotation just like they did with maintenance company on Pendleton. Have a few different platoons around different areas on the base. And allow responsible Marine's to attend mandated CCW courses and carry on base. This could solve a lot of this issue.

This I like.

And honestly, I much preferred guard over mess duty. Which the Gunny's pets never had to pull anyway.

[JSantoro]

To even come close to making it worthwhile, and not just TSA in Chucks....

Retool how/when baseline firearms quals are run, i.e., RUN THEM. Stop presuming that the power-point ninja who squatted on the FOB three times is okay "because he's been deployed a bunch." He's not automatically a jerkoff, but he's definitely NOT "okay" with a firearm based upon mere number of times he got a gov't-paid ride to another country and back.

Make it so that an individual Marine basically has to produce a corpse to get a waiver for NOT taking their annual quals. Regardless of rank and with particular emphasis on pistol in the interests of doing what can be done to ensure that the ones likely to have to do this little pipedream have something masquerading as competency with what they're likely gonna be armed with.

No more "qualified X times = doesn't have to qual any more," or anything like it, unless you're ready to do the same bloody thing with PFTs.

No more "gentleman's courses," be they official or otherwise.

And, since we're engaging in discussing what wishes we'd ask for when we discover and rub the lamp.....I want an extra .75" of girth for my Executive Branch, a perennial cash vine in by back yard and an eidetic memory.

http://imageshack.us/a/img13/774/uf5s.jpg

[yellowfin]

Maybe I think of things too simply, but if you can't trust someone to be armed, WTF are they doing working for/with you in the first place? Can't trust the Marines to be armed, then what in the hell is the concept of discipline supposed to mean exactly? What happened to Robert E. Lee's rule that every man is expected to be a gentleman?

[TurretGunner]

At the risk of thread drift...

Maintaining civilian DOD police forces offers a number of advantages. Members do not PCS, deploy, and have greater continuity than their military counterparts. With a focused LE mission, they also do not have their critical LE skill sets diluted by the many war-related tasks and missions that the military forces must train and sustain.

At CONUS installations, those LE skill sets tend to be greater importance and consumer-value than the others. Further, a professionally trained and focused police officer is more readily adapted to basic force protection tasks (such as entry control and security functions) than the more diversified military police force is adaptable to, and able to sustain, LE competencies.

This not to diminish the status or contributions of military police forces, but it is what it is. More has been asked of them than ever before, and their identifies are in a state of flux.

Likewise, nor will I suggest that DOD/individual service civilian police forces are a universal answer or perfect solution. They do bring much to the table when allowed to work as designed.

Contractors are a whole other conversation.

I suppose it depends on what you want forces capable of, and the quality of services required.

Not really. My experince with DOD Police is they are a joke. The ones at the navy yard are old, fat and lethargic. Less than two weeks after the attacks, they are still a soft target with no changes whatsoever to perimeter security .

There are more than enough troops to go around. When one PCS's out, another PCS's in. Thats what great about the DoD. Its so ****ing big that finding people is the last problem it has.

[TurretGunner]

To even come close to making it worthwhile, and not just TSA in Chucks....

Retool how/when baseline firearms quals are run, i.e., RUN THEM. Stop presuming that the power-point ninja who squatted on the FOB three times is okay "because he's been deployed a bunch." He's not automatically a jerkoff, but he's definitely NOT "okay" with a firearm based upon mere number of times he got a gov't-paid ride to another country and back.

Make it so that an individual Marine basically has to produce a corpse to get a waiver for NOT taking their annual quals. Regardless of rank and with particular emphasis on pistol in the interests of doing what can be done to ensure that the ones likely to have to do this little pipedream have something masquerading as competency with what they're likely gonna be armed with.

No more "qualified X times = doesn't have to qual any more," or anything like it, unless you're ready to do the same bloody thing with PFTs.

No more "gentleman's courses," be they official or otherwise.

And, since we're engaging in discussing what wishes we'd ask for when we discover and rub the lamp.....I want an extra .75" of girth for my Executive Branch, a perennial cash vine in by back yard and an eidetic memory.

http://imageshack.us/a/img13/774/uf5s.jpg

.75"........... Shit homey shoot for the moon. Baby's arm holding an apple.

[JSantoro]

....and lose the ability to carry a full-size gun AIWB....?

That would be, as I believe the youth of the streets to be saying these days, "cray-cray."

....he said, fully aware that he's probably NOT using that the right way....

[SeriousStudent]

Amos awarded Blue Falcon - chortle.