View Full Version : Diagnosis: Slight bias to left / low left... suggestions?
Prairie Patriot
10-02-13, 12:49
As the title says, towards the end of my pistol range sessions, I tend to start grouping left / low left about 1-2 inches of my POI (3-7 yds). I'm right hand dominate.
I know it is hard to tell from a description, but what are some things I can check outside of grip and finger placement on the trigger? I have a pistol class coming up, but I'd rather get some feedback here first so that I can try and come with some knowledge if it starts showing up during the course.
TIA
It could be due to a lapse in concentration. I will usually start off at an acceptable level when cold, tighten up my groups up as I get a few more shots through the system, and after a while I see that I am probably not focusing that great as my groups start to open up again.
Low and left is usually a trigger pull issue for right handed shooters, sometimes the result of not isolating the trigger finger, but tightening the rest of the fingers on the firing hand as well.
Yep...Milking the grip... Recommend lots of dry fire practice in the living room with Fox news on. Ammo in the next county of course...O.L.
Prairie Patriot
10-02-13, 13:47
Yep...Milking the grip... Recommend lots of dry fire practice in the living room with Fox news on. Ammo in the next county of course...O.L.
Yup, I dry fire practice a lot on the weekends when I'm not on the road. Will keep doing it. It definitely has made a huge improvement in my marksmanship. Luckily, I'm not too far off of center towards the end of the sessions, but I want to be able to do it without a second thought.
Is this with one pistol only?
Are you on target when you start shooting?
Prairie Patriot
10-02-13, 14:31
Is this with one pistol only?
Are you on target when you start shooting?
I haven't shot another pistol in a while, so I can't answer that at the moment.
Yes, I'm fairly centered when starting out. I actually posted pictures of my targets on my blog if that helps: Range Report 9-26-13: Tune up prior to Asymmetric's Tactical Pistol 1 (http://prairiepatriot.blogspot.com/2013/10/range-report-9-26-13-tune-up-prior-to.html)
This is a common problem for right handed shooters. It's usually the result of a developing flinch, which is more attributable to noise than recoil in most cases. It's very easy to diagnose. Mix some dummy rounds in with live rounds and load the magazine without looking at what order they're loaded in. When you press the trigger on a dummy round, take note of whether the gun moves at all when the sear/striker is released but a live round isn't fired. It will be glaringly obvious if/when it happens.
Prairie Patriot
10-02-13, 16:25
This is a common problem for right handed shooters. It's usually the result of a developing flinch, which is more attributable to noise than recoil in most cases. It's very easy to diagnose. Mix some dummy rounds in with live rounds and load the magazine without looking at what order they're loaded in. When you press the trigger on a dummy round, take note of whether the gun moves at all when the sear/striker is released but a live round isn't fired. It will be glaringly obvious if/when it happens.
I'll do that. As soon as I start to notice it, I'll load up some random dummies and see what happens.
If it turns out I'm flinching, then is there anything I can do besides just concentrating harder on not flinching? :P
When you start seeing this happen save your ammunition. Unload your pistol and run dime drills until you don't disturb the dime when you dry fire.
Once you have your trigger technique sorted out, shoot at least 20 rounds slow fire into as tight of a group as you can to reinforce muscle memory. Don't just fire 20 rounds, fire a single controlled shot 20 times. The last thing you want to experience before leaving the range should be positive.
When you start seeing this happen save your ammunition. Unload your pistol and run dime drills until you don't disturb the dime when you dry fire.
Once you have your trigger technique sorted out, shoot at least 20 rounds slow fire into as tight of a group as you can to reinforce muscle memory. Don't just fire 20 rounds, fire a single controlled shot 20 times. The last thing you want to experience before leaving the range should be positive.
This. For clarification, in a dime drill you prep the gun to be dry fired, hold the gun out horizontally and gently place a dime flat on top of the front sight. Then you obtain a good sight alignment/sight picture and do you best to break the shot (dry) without making the dime fall off the front sight. Some striker fired guns or guns with very short front sights make the dime drill difficult, but I've actually been able to accomplish it with a G-17 with night sights.
You don't really need to focus harder on not flinching, the observation of the flinch will reinforce your intent to break the next shot cleanly. Good luck! :)
You're getting good advice here, so if you implement it and do your best to reinforce good habits, the practice should increase your ability to stay on target over a bigger round count. Shoot happy, be safe always!
Prairie Patriot
10-02-13, 17:38
I've used dummy rounds and have done the dime drills before, but this just reinforces the need to stay on top of doing them when I see that my marksmanship is suffering instead of just continuing on.
I'll be sure to write this down and take with me to the range to remind myself. Thank you all for the advice.
As the title says, towards the end of my pistol range sessions, I tend to start grouping left / low left about 1-2 inches of my POI (3-7 yds). I'm right hand dominate.
I know it is hard to tell from a description, but what are some things I can check outside of grip and finger placement on the trigger? I have a pistol class coming up, but I'd rather get some feedback here first so that I can try and come with some knowledge if it starts showing up during the course.
TIA
My thought is you are lapsing on grip and trigger control. Basically you are losing concentration and your subconscious (with its bad habits) is taking over. Until you can subconsciously shoot well this will probably keep happening and shooting through it only reinforces the bad habits. Best thing to do is stop and try to reset or just stop period to avoid the bad reps.
Prairie Patriot
10-22-13, 09:36
Okay, I worked on what you all suggested. Here are my results (NOTE: I shot mostly at 3 yards as opposed to the 7 yds from last time since I was going with smaller silhouette targets this time around):
Range Session 10-19 (http://prairiepatriot.blogspot.com/2013/10/range-report-10-19-13-accuracy-session.html)
Any feedback is truly appreciated.
On an off note, mechanically what kind of groupings should I be expecting from the M&P9c at 25 yards? I think I read somewhere else on the forums for the FS that it is 4 inches?
Okay, I worked on what you all suggested. Here are my results (NOTE: I shot mostly at 3 yards as opposed to the 7 yds from last time since I was going with smaller silhouette targets this time around):
Range Session 10-19 (http://prairiepatriot.blogspot.com/2013/10/range-report-10-19-13-accuracy-session.html)
Any feedback is truly appreciated.
On an off note, mechanically what kind of groupings should I be expecting from the M&P9c at 25 yards? I think I read somewhere else on the forums for the FS that it is 4 inches?
Can't see the pic from my machine, so someone else will have to chime in there. I'd say 4-5.5 inches for the 9c. It's shorter sight radius makes it more difficult to get small groups at extended ranges.
Failure2Stop
10-22-13, 20:16
Get professional instruction by a known, quality instructor.
The money you spend on tuition will far outweigh that of the ammo you will spend with little to no progress or actually getting worse.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
Prairie Patriot
10-22-13, 20:50
Get professional instruction by a known, quality instructor.
The money you spend on tuition will far outweigh that of the ammo you will spend with little to no progress or actually getting worse.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
Yup, I've gone to a couple different instructors over the past year and a half. They have mentioned what others have said in the thread, but it helps to have others input sometimes.
Get professional instruction by a known, quality instructor.
The money you spend on tuition will far outweigh that of the ammo you will spend with little to no progress or actually getting worse.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
This is sound advice. It's difficult to diagnose an issue without observing a shooter first hand. Hands on training with the right instructor is money well spent.
militarymoron
10-23-13, 18:19
Are you starting to shoot a bit faster nearing the end of your shooting session? if so, your issue might be similar to mine.
during slow fire i'd be on target. but when i sped up - like more than two shots per second, my hits would be down and to the right (i'm a lefty) in a pretty consistent pattern.
during a tigerswan pistol class, i pointed this out, and the instructor took a look at my target and my glock, and said 'not enough finger'. he demonstrated it by making me get into my normal firing grip, with finger on the trigger (with an unloaded pistol of course), then rotating my fore arm so it was vertical, and i was looking at the top of the slide. he had me take up the slack/pre-travel in the trigger and release (not actually firing the pistol), over and over, faster and faster while i observed what happened to the muzzle when i did so.
every time i pressed the trigger, the muzzle moved to the right slightly. the issue i was having was that i was using the pad of my trigger finger to pull the trigger back. as the finger moved back, it was also pushing the muzzle over to the side and down - i did not have a straight-back pull. he told me to use part of the pad nearer the first joint, or place the joint on the trigger - 'more finger' in other words. i did so, performed the same exercise, and the muzzle moved much less.
the idea of the exercise was to find the placement of the trigger finger on the trigger such that lateral movement of the muzzle is minimized - and you find that position where you get a straight-back pull.
now that i was aware of this, i put it into practice and saw an immediate improvement.
slow fire and dummy drills didn't diagnose this because i was pulling the trigger back slowly enough such that i could make minor corrections to line the sights back on target if needed.
this was my issue and what worked for me - it may not be yours, so YMMV. but at least do the trigger exercise with the muzzle vertical and see which way your finger is pushing or pulling the muzzle, then try to find that neutral finger position and use that next time at the range and see if that makes a difference.
ask your instructor at your pistol class to diagnose the issue, for sure.
Voodoo_Man
10-23-13, 18:30
+1 for what F2S said, some skillsets cannot be learned on your own.
Sorry if these are stupid questions - What pistol are you shooting? Ammo? Modifications to pistol? Have you shot at 10y, 15y and 25y?
theblackknight
10-24-13, 03:21
OP are you shooting a Glerk?
also http://http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=pre+ignition+push&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
Prairie Patriot
10-24-13, 07:32
Are you starting to shoot a bit faster nearing the end of your shooting session? if so, your issue might be similar to mine.
during slow fire i'd be on target. but when i sped up - like more than two shots per second, my hits would be down and to the right (i'm a lefty) in a pretty consistent pattern.
during a tigerswan pistol class, i pointed this out, and the instructor took a look at my target and my glock, and said 'not enough finger'. he demonstrated it by making me get into my normal firing grip, with finger on the trigger (with an unloaded pistol of course), then rotating my fore arm so it was vertical, and i was looking at the top of the slide. he had me take up the slack/pre-travel in the trigger and release (not actually firing the pistol), over and over, faster and faster while i observed what happened to the muzzle when i did so.
every time i pressed the trigger, the muzzle moved to the right slightly. the issue i was having was that i was using the pad of my trigger finger to pull the trigger back. as the finger moved back, it was also pushing the muzzle over to the side and down - i did not have a straight-back pull. he told me to use part of the pad nearer the first joint, or place the joint on the trigger - 'more finger' in other words. i did so, performed the same exercise, and the muzzle moved much less.
the idea of the exercise was to find the placement of the trigger finger on the trigger such that lateral movement of the muzzle is minimized - and you find that position where you get a straight-back pull.
now that i was aware of this, i put it into practice and saw an immediate improvement.
slow fire and dummy drills didn't diagnose this because i was pulling the trigger back slowly enough such that i could make minor corrections to line the sights back on target if needed.
this was my issue and what worked for me - it may not be yours, so YMMV. but at least do the trigger exercise with the muzzle vertical and see which way your finger is pushing or pulling the muzzle, then try to find that neutral finger position and use that next time at the range and see if that makes a difference.
ask your instructor at your pistol class to diagnose the issue, for sure.
Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a try and see what is happening. I thought about finger on the trigger placement. But as you noted, I didn't think it was it because when I dry fire or do dime drills the sites really don't move. Worth a shot!
Prairie Patriot
10-24-13, 07:37
+1 for what F2S said, some skillsets cannot be learned on your own.
Sorry if these are stupid questions - What pistol are you shooting? Ammo? Modifications to pistol? Have you shot at 10y, 15y and 25y?
I know people keep saying to get training, but I HAVE had training. Am I supposed to go and get training every time I have trouble with something? :p Availability in my area and time are low for me so I have to make do until then.
Nope, not stupid questions at all. Pistol is M&P9c. American Eagle 9 mm 115 gr and Remington UMC 9 mm 115 gr (I believe). No mods to pistol other than meprolights. I've shot out to 15 yds. The pattern widens up as expected, but the down and to the left becomes more pronounced (also, as expected since its happening fairly close).
Prairie Patriot
10-24-13, 07:38
OP are you shooting a Glerk?
also http://http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=pre+ignition+push&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
Nope, M&P9c. Also, your link doesn't work for me in Chrome?
Redbeardsong
10-24-13, 07:57
When I switched over to the M&P9 I found I had to focus much more on trigger technique to shoot it well. Specifically I had to use LESS finger (trigger more on the pad of my finger than the joint) alleviate the low, left problem. Other shooters I know had the same experience when switching to the M&P from Glock and Sig (especially).
Down and left is one of the most common problems for right handed shooters. The most likely cause is pushing the pistol down in anticipation of the shot going off. Its to the left and down because you are right handed and are inputing more movement into the pistol with this hand.
As previously stated the best diagnosis is to mix in dummy rounds. Keep focus on the front sight and you will see it move when the pistol fires on a dummy round. Mix in lots of dry fire too.
My opinion is that for the great majority of shooters their shooting errors are induced by anticipation of recoil. Different people anticipate differently. It may be snatching the trigger, tightening one hand, pushing the gun etc. You have to find what works for you to mentally convince your body not to anticipate during firing. A lot of rounds and practice always helps too.
Regardless of what the internet says it is difficult to get small groups at distance with a pistol. If you can regularly keep 6-8 inch groups at 25 yards you are doing well.
This suggestion is assuming you have an average size hand and are gripping the pistol in a manner that gives you consistent sight recovery after each shot.
Place a 1" paster on a contrasting target and fire shot groups at 10 yards. Try moving your index finger to different positions on the trigger and fire shot groups at each position.
Start at the tip of the finger, the area opposite of the quick of the fingernail, then the right side of the trigger touching the crease on the distal joint of your finger. Check each group for the most consistent pattern. Then try placing your index finger on the trigger at positions between each of the three I suggested above. You will find a sweet spot of the trigger finger that works best for you, then train using the sweet spot.
The crease adjacent to the distal joint is the position I use the most when shooting handguns. I move the trigger finger to the area opposite of the quick of the finger nail to shoot 100 yards with a handgun and longer shots with a rifle.
Try it and let us know how it works out. If it does not work, the most you have lost is a few minutes and a box of ammunition.
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