View Full Version : Pronged Flash Hider Question (Vortex vs. PWS Triad)
Will_Power
10-02-13, 16:57
Guys,
I've a question regarding the design of the Smith Vortex versus the PWS Triad.
I was the friendly local gun store during lunch today picking up some odds and ends for a build.
There, I saw both of these flash hiders, and they both looked essentially identical save for one thing: the Vortex had an open end, while the Triad's prong folded over 90 degrees and closed in at the end to essentially provide a small open area.
Does that make sense? Google Image isn't pulling up any representative photos.
Edit: I BSed together a representation of what I'm talking about:
http://i.imgur.com/xQG41OC.png
What purpose does that serve? I know everyone loves the Vortex, and these two were priced identically. I just didn't know if these was some flash hiding benefit to closing off the opening like that.
The Triads cuts are irregular with the one facing up deeper than the other two which allows some muzzle rise compensation. This also eliminates the ping which is common to the style of flash hider.
Will_Power
10-02-13, 17:23
The Triads cuts are irregular with the one facing up deeper than the other two which allows some muzzle rise compensation. This also eliminates the ping which is common to the style of flash hider.
Unless I'm completely dense and misunderstanding you, I don't think that's what I was actually asking about, but it's helpful info nonetheless.
How do those irregular cuts effect the visual flash reduction? On the same level as the Vortex or worse? Is it a significant enough reduction in muzzle rise to be worth the tradeoff? I'm more interested in flash reduction than anything else at this point.
I think you did a good job of BSing together a representation. GH
Will_Power
10-02-13, 18:27
I think you did a good job of BSing together a representation. GH
I'll take what I can get, heh. Thanks.
Unless I'm completely dense and misunderstanding you, I don't think that's what I was actually asking about, but it's helpful info nonetheless.
How do those irregular cuts effect the visual flash reduction? On the same level as the Vortex or worse? Is it a significant enough reduction in muzzle rise to be worth the tradeoff? I'm more interested in flash reduction than anything else at this point.
Sorry I was thinking something else and misred you. My triad suppresses flash very well with some muzzle control, not as much as a true comp but better than most flash hiders. The Vortex is widely known as one of the best flash hiders out there, but it does nothing for muzzle control. I have not shot both side by side to directly compare flash.
If flash suppression is your goal the BE Meyers device is the best on the market.
Will,
Sure you're not confusing the two? The Vortex's prongs are thicker leaving a smaller opening at the end. The Triad has thinner prongs that leaves a more open end unless PWS has recently made a revision to the Triad.
Triad:
http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/catalog/PWS_TRIAD_556_L_1.jpg
Vortex:
http://www.smithenterprise.com/imagesprod/Vortex_G6A2-Retail.lg.jpg
no love for AAC Blackout?..
Sorry I was thinking something else and misred you. My triad suppresses flash very well with some muzzle control, not as much as a true comp but better than most flash hiders. The Vortex is widely known as one of the best flash hiders out there, but it does nothing for muzzle control. I have not shot both side by side to directly compare flash.
If flash suppression is your goal the BE Meyers device is the best on the market.
Is the BE Meyers measurably better than the Vortex, AAC Blackout, Surefire FH, or any other similarly-designed flash hider?
Is the BE Meyers measurably better than the Vortex, AAC Blackout, Surefire FH, or any other similarly-designed flash hider?
I can't find the link, but according to Gear Scout and Weapon Outfitters JSOC did a test and the BE Meyers performed the best out of all the devices, providing 96% better flash suppression than the A2. The Blackout also did very well.
Gear Scout did an awesome overview of the available devices on the market.
http://blogs.militarytimes.com/gearscout/2012/11/15/muzzle-devices-101/
Will_Power
10-03-13, 11:15
Will,
Sure you're not confusing the two? The Vortex's prongs are thicker leaving a smaller opening at the end. The Triad has thinner prongs that leaves a more open end unless PWS has recently made a revision to the Triad.
Triad:
http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/catalog/PWS_TRIAD_556_L_1.jpg
Vortex:
http://www.smithenterprise.com/imagesprod/Vortex_G6A2-Retail.lg.jpg
Looks like I did get the two confused in my mind, but my original questions stands. I'm curious if any of you mechanical engineer types can speak to two two designs.
Had the opportunity to assess 10 different muzzle devices at a night shoot and the White Sound Defense FOSA was the unanimous winner. The PWS Triad did not do as well as the AAC Blackout. The Blackout suffers from a "tuning fork" effect. The White Sound does not.
That said, the A2 does a pretty good job for the vast majority of AR shooters. But I can't mount an M4-2000 to it :-)
http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server1300/acf86/products/46/images/156/FCX-FHB-556528-001__53478.1358979963.220.220.jpg
Had the opportunity to assess 10 different muzzle devices at a night shoot and the White Sound Defense FOSA was the unanimous winner. The PWS Triad did not do as well as the AAC Blackout. The Blackout suffers from a "tuning fork" effect. The White Sound does not.
I think the "tuning fork" problem is vastly overblown. It's really not a problem whatsoever.
Had the opportunity to assess 10 different muzzle devices at a night shoot and the White Sound Defense FOSA was the unanimous winner. The PWS Triad did not do as well as the AAC Blackout. The Blackout suffers from a "tuning fork" effect. The White Sound does not.
That said, the A2 does a pretty good job for the vast majority of AR shooters. But I can't mount an M4-2000 to it :-)
http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server1300/acf86/products/46/images/156/FCX-FHB-556528-001__53478.1358979963.220.220.jpg
I wouldn't expect it to do as well as a blackout. They advertise the triad as a flash comp.
I can't find the link, but according to Gear Scout and Weapon Outfitters JSOC did a test and the BE Meyers performed the best out of all the devices, providing 96% better flash suppression than the A2. The Blackout also did very well.
Gear Scout did an awesome overview of the available devices on the market.
http://blogs.militarytimes.com/gearscout/2012/11/15/muzzle-devices-101/
"They found the AAC Blackout and B.E. Meyers flash hiders were both 96% more effective in reducing muzzle flash than an A2 birdcage hider."
Both did 96% better than an A2. So since the Blackout is shorter than the B.E. Meyers and $30 cheaper, is there a reason to get the B.E. Meyers over a Blackout? I'm not an expert on fluid dynamics nor aero...dynamics? But just look at test results and determine which is mroe effective and compare it to price.
OP - the opening isn't "closed off", one just has thicker tines than the other.
"They found the AAC Blackout and B.E. Meyers flash hiders were both 96% more effective in reducing muzzle flash than an A2 birdcage hider."
Both did 96% better than an A2. So since the Blackout is shorter than the B.E. Meyers and $30 cheaper, is there a reason to get the B.E. Meyers over a Blackout?
No tuning fork effect (which I agree is overblown but annoying with a suppressor) and the cool guys use it :ph34r: My buddy has a Meyers on a DD MK18 upper and there is very little to no flash depending on ammo.
Had the opportunity to assess 10 different muzzle devices at a night shoot and the White Sound Defense FOSA was the unanimous winner. The PWS Triad did not do as well as the AAC Blackout. The Blackout suffers from a "tuning fork" effect. The White Sound does not.
That said, the A2 does a pretty good job for the vast majority of AR shooters. But I can't mount an M4-2000 to it :-)
http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server1300/acf86/products/46/images/156/FCX-FHB-556528-001__53478.1358979963.220.220.jpg
I tried the PWS Triad, and was very disappointed. To my eye, it produces ~15% less flash than an A2 and has very little compensation. When I tried to contact PWS customer service to take advantage of their supposed zero risk return policy, they never responded.
I completely agree that the White Sound Fossa 556 is the overall top flash hider right now, although it does not get a lot of buzz on this site. If they marketed it better I think it would really catch on. It has essentially zero flash to my eye in total darkness (slightly better than the Vortex and Blackout), does not ping at all, and seems to offer some compensation (though it is still no 'compensator') when compared to a Blackout on a similar build.
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2013/10/03/ar15-muzzle-brakeflash-hidercompensator-comparison-part-1/
Andrew put up another excellent article displaying flash differences. The Meyers and the Blackout did the best again.
This is only part one. He will be releasing segments for noise and recoil as well.
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2013/10/03/ar15-muzzle-brakeflash-hidercompensator-comparison-part-1/
Andrew put up another excellent article displaying flash differences. The Meyers and the Blackout did the best again.
Wow great comparison.
ClearedHot
10-04-13, 01:42
BE Meyers is probably the most effective flash hider, but at the same time it's also the longest muzzle device as well.
Wow very informative read. Been using A2 flash hiders and phantoms the past few years and recently decided to use a comp.
I'm glad to see the actual results
Will_Power
10-04-13, 13:16
"They found the AAC Blackout and B.E. Meyers flash hiders were both 96% more effective in reducing muzzle flash than an A2 birdcage hider."
Both did 96% better than an A2. So since the Blackout is shorter than the B.E. Meyers and $30 cheaper, is there a reason to get the B.E. Meyers over a Blackout? I'm not an expert on fluid dynamics nor aero...dynamics? But just look at test results and determine which is mroe effective and compare it to price.
I'd be interested in seeing the full list and comparing effectiveness to price across the range of the pronged flash hiders. If I can get something 85-90% effective for $40, for example, then for my needs that works just as well as the Blackout and the BE Meyers at $130.
justin_247
10-04-13, 13:59
I'd be interested in seeing the full list and comparing effectiveness to price across the range of the pronged flash hiders. If I can get something 85-90% effective for $40, for example, then for my needs that works just as well as the Blackout and the BE Meyers at $130.
According to Andrew's results, the AAC Blackout and YHM Phantom would meet this criteria.
theGOLDENchild
10-23-13, 12:19
No one mentioned the Wilson Accu-Tac. It's very close to your budget, works well, and has no tuning fork sound.
I'd be interested in seeing the full list and comparing effectiveness to price across the range of the pronged flash hiders. If I can get something 85-90% effective for $40, for example, then for my needs that works just as well as the Blackout and the BE Meyers at $130.
What/ Who are we supposed to believe?? I am looking for as much flash reduction as possible with some compensation. If you believe this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_004H7tVgg you would buy the FSC556. GH
Will_Power
10-23-13, 17:54
What/ Who are we supposed to believe?? I am looking for as much flash reduction as possible with some compensation. If you believe this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_004H7tVgg you would buy the FSC556. GH
Well, this thread has been more about pure flash reduction, but all in all, I think you're dealing with a number of models that will get you most of the way there.
As for me, I'm thinking about just dropping a ubiquitous A2 birdcage on the end for cheap, spending the rest of the money on saving up for good glass, and then circling back after that and getting the BE Meyers flash hider as it really seems to be the most effective out there.
I understand your position but how do you think an A2 would do on an 18" plus barrel? The Meyers turn off to me is the fact it is 2.75" long!! GH
Will_Power
10-23-13, 18:27
I understand your position but how do you think an A2 would do on an 18" plus barrel? The Meyers turn off to me is the fact it is 2.75" long!! GH
I think an A2 will work alright for flash reduction, but the PWS FSC you mentioned is a compensator, too, working to reduce felt recoil and muzzle rise. An A2 won't have much of an effect on that.
And the build I started this thread talking about is for a 20" White Oak DMR barrel for precision shooting and coyote hunting. I don't have to worry about kicking doors or making my way down a hallway in the middle of the night, so the length isn't an issue. In my context, the flash reduction is what I really want, and the BE Meyers seems to be king at that.
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