Business ethics: Scenarios and your responses. [Archive]

Eurodriver

10-03-13, 07:15

I came across these this morning and I'm very interested to see what your responses would be to the given scenarios. For the life of me, I can't honestly say what I would do in any of them.

Scenario 1:

Your are manager of a restaurant. You take a look at a regional on-line restaurant rating site, and see that there are several reviews that say things like “The food is bad” and “The service is terrible, the servers are surly” and “Don’t eat here, it’s not worth it.” You do not recognize the names on the ratings.

That evening as one of your tables of customers is leaving, one person in the group asks to see the manager. You go over to the person and he says “For $25 and tonight’s dinner free, we’ll all write excellent ratings of your restaurant.” You angrily refuse, but no one else heard the comment, so there’s no way to later prove the conversation happened.

Next day you look at ratings on the restaurant rating site and discover several new reviews, all of them bad. You see the same names on very positive reviews of a competitor, and it occurs to you that your competitor probably paid those people for positive reviews. You have no proof.

Can you ask some of your employees to write bad reviews of your competitor? Would it be ethical to offer free meals or cash to some of your customers to write bad reviews of your competitor—or write some good reviews about yours?

Scenario 2:

Another employee on the same level you are (that is, not someone you report to or supervise) confides in you that she never did actually graduate from college, although she claimed to have a BA from a respected university on her resume(she did attend, just never graduated).

This person has been on the job as long as you have. She is good at what she does, and while she’s not really a friend, she’s friendly and has worked well on teams you both have been on.

You are both being considered for a manager position. Only one of you will be promoted. The company regards misinformation on a resume as grounds for termination.

Is it ethical to tell upper management that she lied on her resume, when you know it will guarantee you the promotion?

Scenario 3:

You have been put in charge of posting a job opening for a starting management position in your company. Pay and benefits are good and the company reputation is good. You get a number of qualified applicants.

However, you know it’s all an exercise in futility, posting a position and bringing in candidates, because you know very well that the person who will be hired is the CEO’s nephew, a nice enough person, but unqualified for the job.

Is there any ethical problem for you in writing and posting the job description, accepting applications and so on, when you know none of them will get the job?

Crow Hunter

10-03-13, 07:35

Scenario 1

If your food and service is really good. It won't matter what bad reviews are posted. People will still come because of word of mouth. I would not give a bribe for a good review.

Scenario 2

Performance is what matters. If the person can do the job, it really doesn't matter what type of degree they have if any. Some of the best engineers that I have ever worked with don't have actually engineering degrees. If they can live with it, I can live with it. I definitely wouldn't use it as a means to advance myself.

Scenario 3

This happens all the time. I have often posted job bids even though I pretty much knew who I wanted for the job based on performance. I posted it because it is company policy. Every once in a while I actually find a candidate that I like more. It is usually fairly infrequent though. If nothing else, it is a good opportunity for someone to practice interviewing, even if they have no chance at the job.

Belmont31R

10-03-13, 08:19

1. Ethical to pay for false reviews? No. People still do it or make their own.

2. Shouldn't let another person lie at your expense. In most cases that employee would not return the favor. People don't advance in business by always putting themselves second fiddle to others.

3. I don't think it's ethical to waste people's time with a fake job ad. Happens all the time though for various reasons.

_Stormin_

10-03-13, 10:18

I guess I just live differently than some.

Scenario 1:
Won't pay for reviews, won't bad mouth a competitor, won't promote my own business under false pretenses... My business will rise and fall on the quality of our product and the strength of my teams service. Doing any of those things would be wrong.

Scenario 2:
They lied, not you. I would, in reporting that information, be very honest about the quality of the persons work, and any invaluable contributions made to the team. That considered, they lied. My consideration for the promotion does not factor in. If one wants to refuse the promotion because they feel they got it through unjust means, I would hold no grudge against them for it. I had an employee turn down a promotion because she felt she was only getting it due to her tenure. She felt a newer employee was far more qualified and ardently attempted to convince me that it was the case.

Scenario 3:
I have no problem in following direction from my management. If I did, I would leave and go work somewhere else. Furthermore, not posting the position would be doing applicants and the company a disservice. You never know who is going to apply, and someone might show up that stands head and shoulders above the CEO's nephew. The people in charge of hiring for this may see this person as such a qualified candidate that the nephew drops from consideration. Missing that opportunity because of some personal hang up would be the real error, and it would be yours and not the company's.

glocktogo

10-03-13, 10:25

Don Robison

10-03-13, 11:03

Doc Safari

10-03-13, 11:19

Scenario 1:

Rock and a hard place. The only honest response is to genuinely poll your customers and ask the positive ones to politely write good reviews for you.

Scenario 2:

If you care about the organization you work for, it is your duty to report something like this to management. Otherwise you are complicit in the deception.

Scenario 3:

Like it or not, sometimes you have to do what the boss says even though you know it's an exercise in futility. Like I was fond of saying in the business world: "Eight hours is eight hours."

tb-av

10-03-13, 11:48

S1: Can you ask some of your employees to write bad reviews of your competitor? Would it be ethical to offer free meals or cash to some of your customers to write bad reviews of your competitor—or write some good reviews about yours?

Yes, you can ask, but it would be unethical to do so.
Yes, it would be unethical to offer cash/meals for good reviews.

S2: Is it ethical to tell upper management that she lied on her resume, when you know it will guarantee you the promotion?

Yes, it is ethical. Some organizations would even require that if you know of unethical activity then you must report it. It's even possible it's a test of your ethics. The other person may already have a different promotion and they are testing where your loyalties sit.

S3: Is there any ethical problem for you in writing and posting the job description, accepting applications and so on, when you know none of them will get the job?

Unless you are the one hiring the nephew, then you can't -know- for certain. So yes, it is ethical. If you -are- hiring the nephew and know that up front no matter what... then yes, I would say it is unethical.

At the heart of the matter, concerning ethics, you should step away from the whole deal if possible. At the very least let someone know. That may cost you your job but it sounds like a place you don;t want to be anyway if you are asking ethics questions. That's a complicated one because it suggests the interviews are required by the CEO but why? Why not just hire his nephew? This suggests he answers to someone and you may have some ethical situation with them.

Anyway... that one has a lot of "if's and why's"

ETA: ... and you are asking two different questions. You are asking "What would I do?" but the questions are asking "is this ethical". for instance on S3 many say it happens all the time. some say just turn a blind eye, some say who knows... a real winner might apply.... none of those are the scenario nor the question.... at it's core face value you are in an unethical situation as written. IOW, if Einstein walks through the door the nephew is still getting hired. If the interviews are for that single sole purpose, not to be held, not to be considered, just a complete farce, then yes... it's unethical... provided you absolutely know the final result... like you've already seen the nephews ID, name on the door, paycheck entry in computer... type deal.

ETA2: All you have to do for most any ethics question is think... in a perfect world, where there are no repercussions, what would be the right thing to do ( or not do ). That is the ethical thing.

dewatters

10-03-13, 14:04

The person in S2 could be baiting you with false information. You report her, and then she trumps the accusation with definitive proof of her transcript. Boom! Now you look like a liar and scumbag.

MountainRaven

10-03-13, 21:39

SeriousStudent

10-03-13, 21:48

The neat thing about being honest and telling the truth, is that you never have to worry about keeping your story straight.

It's also easier to look yourself, or anyone else for that matter, directly in the eye.

_Stormin_

10-03-13, 22:42

The person in S2 could be baiting you with false information. You report her, and then she trumps the accusation with definitive proof of her transcript. Boom! Now you look like a liar and scumbag.
Then she was still a liar, and wouldn't be welcome in any company of mine.

CarlosDJackal

10-03-13, 22:59

1) No matter how good your food or service might be; bad reviews will be inevitable whether real or fake. If your food and service is good, the positive reviews and word of mouth will trump the negative ones in the long run.

2) As long as your co-worker is doing their job, what do you care whether or not she has a degree. That is between your co-worker and the company. Besides, unless you know that the lack of a degree is a fact, you really have no grounds for reporting this.

3) I found my first job out of college because I was not hired for the one I interviewed for. They liked me so much one of the VPs treated me to lunch and they ended up creating a position for me for which I was hired. Who knows, maybe the CEO's nephew might decide not to accept the position.

AKDoug

10-04-13, 01:42

Alaskapopo

10-04-13, 01:51

S1- Never going to ask for a positive review. Never going to beg or plead or offer money or services. I will do what I do to the best of my ability. If people like what I do, great! I hope they spread the word far and wide and often. If they don't, then they don't. And that's unfortunate. But life sucks, get a helmet.

S2- The only thing unethical about this was the business requiring a BA, forcing somebody to lie in order to get the job they wanted and are quite obviously competent and capable of doing and doing well. No sense destroying somebody's life, livelihood, and career over what is ultimately a trivial piece of paper.

S3- I don't know anything for certain about what will ultimately happen. For all I know, the nephew could be struck by a meteorite (or [insert horrific, life-altering tragedy here]) before the hiring process begins in earnest or not long after it ends.

On your response to S2. There is nothing unethical about setting requirments you want as a employer for a job. As an employer I would prefer a more educated workforce. No one is forcing anyone to lie. That is like a car theif blaming the victim for leaving the keys in the car forcing him to steel it. Sorry but that is BS. I know of a department where an officer was found to have lied about his education after he had been employed for several years. He was rightfully terminated. You have to have your integrity.
Pat

Don Robison

10-04-13, 02:18

I know of a department where an officer was found to have lied about his education after he had been employed for several years. He was rightfully terminated. You have to have your integrity.
Pat

Our local department just got rid of one of those guys. He was the number two guy in the department. For full disclosure, fluffing his resume was a minor issue compared to the racketeering charges he was just convicted of at his trial.

Alaskapopo

10-04-13, 05:11

Our local department just got rid of one of those guys. He was the number two guy in the department. For full disclosure, fluffing his resume was a minor issue compared to the racketeering charges he was just convicted of at his trial.

Yea he did not start as a racketeer he started as a liar and it got worse I am sure.
Pat

MountainRaven

10-04-13, 07:28

Then she was still a liar, and wouldn't be welcome in any company of mine.

So how do you resolve the situation? Fire both of them?

On your response to S2. There is nothing unethical about setting requirments you want as a employer for a job. As an employer I would prefer a more educated workforce. No one is forcing anyone to lie. That is like a car theif blaming the victim for leaving the keys in the car forcing him to steel it. Sorry but that is BS. I know of a department where an officer was found to have lied about his education after he had been employed for several years. He was rightfully terminated. You have to have your integrity.
Pat

No, you're right, it's not unethical.

But thanks to employer requirements forcing more and more "educated" employees... a BA is neither a guarantee of competence nor education.

Crow Hunter

10-04-13, 07:28

Is it ethical to tell upper management that she lied on her resume, when you know it will guarantee you the promotion?

This is the problem I have with scenario #2.

It implies that you would not mention that said employee lied on her resume unless you know it will guarantee you a promotion.

I want to be chosen because I am the best candidate for the job based on my skills and abilities, not because I was able to find something wrong with one of my competitors and thereby be the only option left. That, in my opinion, shows a lack of personal integrity on par or exceeding lying on a resume to begin with.

It is up to the company to do a thorough background check. I know when I was hired on in my first engineering job, I had to give contact information for my school so that my degree could be verified. I know they did this because I used to work in the Dean's Office and after they did the check, one of the secretaries emailed me and told me congratulations on getting the job.

If the job "requires" a degree but it can be done adequately by someone who doesn't actually have that degree, it is probably a bogus requirement anyway just created by management fiat. If they don't want to enforce their fiat by at least calling the school in question to ask if a prospective employee actually even graduated from said school, it isn't my place to step in and enforce it, especially for no other reason than advancing my personal career.

JSantoro

10-04-13, 08:25

I have a certificate that proves I already fulfilled my ethics compliance for the year, Lumberg!

_Stormin_

10-04-13, 09:44

So how do you resolve the situation? Fire both of them?
Why would I fire the employee reporting the lie. If it turns out that she lied to him and not the company, she's still the only one that did anything dishonest. The employee who came to me with the information was simply being honest. The info he provided would be checked vs the university office BEFORE speaking to the employee who said her education was bogus. Approaching someone about a verifiable piece of info before ACTUALLY verifying it is more congressional policy than my policy. :)

But thanks to employer requirements forcing more and more "educated" employees... a BA is neither a guarantee of competence nor education.
It's not, but it was still required for the position. This isn't a "grey area" it's pretty clear.

Honu

10-04-13, 14:11

not if you said
this is what she told me ? no idea if she is trying to bait me or not but thought I would report it ?

if she did graduate and baited me then she is a liar and trying to stir up the workers by telling lies

if she did not she was a liar !

either way in your scenario she proves she is a liar :)

The person in S2 could be baiting you with false information. You report her, and then she trumps the accusation with definitive proof of her transcript. Boom! Now you look like a liar and scumbag.

tb-av

10-04-13, 14:45

This is the problem I have with scenario #2.

It implies that you would not mention that said employee lied on her resume unless you know it will guarantee you a promotion.

I want to be chosen because I am the best candidate for the job based on my skills and abilities, not because I was able to find something wrong with one of my competitors and thereby be the only option left.

You would not be a finalist for the job if that were the only reason you were in play.

Finalist
You - Ethical
Other person - Deceptive liar

All else is equal.

It's quite possible that neither of you have anything else to offer. That you are being promoted into a position of being taught new material and skills.

All you have to say is that she confided in you that she has no degree and you would hate to lose to her if it's true and that your skills are otherwise equal.

It's a no brainer. They have reached a coin toss moment. It would be unethical for you to allow her to achieve the promotion without telling them so they could research the validity of her statement.

IOW... you need to tell them whether you win or loose. that part about "guarantee you the job" is to throw you off the "ethics" trail.

The issue is Employer requires BA and you have recent knowledge that a worker has no BA. While it may seem odd in your context, what is happening is that the person that does right wins AND corrects the integrity of the company which had been compromised through some means by your competition.

Alaskapopo

10-04-13, 14:55

So how do you resolve the situation? Fire both of them?

No, you're right, it's not unethical.

But thanks to employer requirements forcing more and more "educated" employees... a BA is neither a guarantee of competence nor education.

First off the main issue here is honesty. Rather you think a having a college education is worthwhile or not. Liars are not to be trusted. Secondly as to the education yes having a BA does show someone has a certain level of education. That is exactly what a degree signifies and like it or not having a BA is starting to become the new standard for many jobs much like a high school diploma was in the past.
Pat

Crow Hunter

10-04-13, 15:27

You would not be a finalist for the job if that were the only reason you were in play.

Finalist
You - Ethical
Other person - Deceptive liar

All else is equal.

It's quite possible that neither of you have anything else to offer. That you are being promoted into a position of being taught new material and skills.

All you have to say is that she confided in you that she has no degree and you would hate to lose to her if it's true and that your skills are otherwise equal.

It's a no brainer. They have reached a coin toss moment. It would be unethical for you to allow her to achieve the promotion without telling them so they could research the validity of her statement.

IOW... you need to tell them whether you win or loose. that part about "guarantee you the job" is to throw you off the "ethics" trail.

The issue is Employer requires BA and you have recent knowledge that a worker has no BA. While it may seem odd in your context, what is happening is that the person that does right wins AND corrects the integrity of the company which had been compromised through some means by your competition.

I didn't interpret the scenario the way you did.

The way I read it, she has confided (defined as told someone a secret trusting them not to repeat it to others) in me some time ago. Something that I have known for a while but I have chosen not to mention and the only reason I would be reporting it now would be to gain an advantage in an interview.

If the question had been. "You recently found out that someone you worked with lied on their resume should you report it?" Then, I would likely report it if directly asked about the qualifications of said employee because I won't lie to cover for someone else, or if I felt that it could compromise the integrity of the company/department.

That being said, my personal feelings are that if a person can do the job and they are doing a good job at it and they can "live with the lie", I am not going to be the one to "out" them. Particularly if I was asked to keep a secret and I agreed. It isn't part of my responsibilty to the company to do background checks/employment verifications/pry into the personal history of my fellow employees since as it has been mentioned before, I wouldn't know for sure unless I did a background check on that employee. If the company chose not to do that, even though they had a "requirement" that an employee has a degree, that is on them. The other part of this is if she "confided" in me I don't "tattle".:D

I, would however, put that person on my don't trust list.

tb-av

10-04-13, 16:06

In these kinds of questions we are not supposed to create scenarios ( even though we all have to present a point ).

Scenario 2:

Another employee on the same level you are (that is, not someone you report to or supervise) confides in you that she never did actually graduate from college, although she claimed to have a BA from a respected university on her resume(she did attend, just never graduated).

OK... thee is no time frame mentioned. Could have been yesterday, could have been 5 years ago. You now have information that may or may not be true. If true it violates your employers code which he has the right to define. That's pretty much the end of that story. It is what it is. You have been -told without proof- that you know a secret that violates company policy.

This person has been on the job as long as you have. She is good at what she does, and while she’s not really a friend, she’s friendly and has worked well on teams you both have been on.

This is all pretty much irrelevant.

You are both being considered for a manager position. Only one of you will be promoted. The company regards misinformation on a resume as grounds for termination.

There is nothing in this statement that indicates you should have known about the termination due to false resume. Maybe they made the rule yesterday. Maybe they made it 10 years ago. Maybe they only become concerned with employees knowing this once they are considered for a management position and now you are being made aware. We have no way of knowing..... All we do know is that as of this instant in time you do indeed know...... regarding this dilemma... the "what we all knew in the past" has not been addressed. The "what we all know right this minute" is clear

Is it ethical to tell upper management that she lied on her resume, when you know it will guarantee you the promotion?

Now when you answer that question if you consider the past you will be manufacturing information to support your decision. that is not the question. The question is take the information you are given, while not exhaustive or even totally clear, deals only with the present.

Remember you have the option to say. She confided in me that she has no BA.

Boss: wow, we checked and you are right. thank you.. you get the job.

At this point you have the job and have satisfied the scenario.

You: Well, I'm afraid I have to decline, because the fact is I have known for years and didn't feel it was my place to speak up.

Boss: Oh, I see ... which means that promotion may be short lived. So at the end of the day you got exactly what you wanted. A position based solely on your abilities and actions.

So the answer is Yes... and the answer about turning yourself in if you have supported her lie is also Yes.

Ethics are not about what you get for your good deeds. They are usually about you not getting something today such that something can't be taken from you tomorrow.

MountainRaven

10-04-13, 22:25

First off the main issue here is honesty. Rather you think a having a college education is worthwhile or not. Liars are not to be trusted. Secondly as to the education yes having a BA does show someone has a certain level of education. That is exactly what a degree signifies and like it or not having a BA is starting to become the new standard for many jobs much like a high school diploma was in the past.
Pat

Everybody lies.

And a BA's value is as a stepping stone to a Master's, a law degree, or some other doctorate. Beyond that... it's practically worthless.

As a highly educated police officer, I would expect that you'd know that.

Alaskapopo

10-04-13, 22:44

Everybody lies.

And a BA's value is as a stepping stone to a Master's, a law degree, or some other doctorate. Beyond that... it's practically worthless.

As a highly educated police officer, I would expect that you'd know that.

We have a difference of opinion. In my field lying will end your career and I value honesty in my friends as well. Someone is only as good as their word. The officers I have been directly involved in their termination was due to lying. Your conscience should be your guide. If it feels wrong it probably is. If you have to come up with elaborate justifications as to why what your doing is not really wrong or that bad its probably very wrong. That kind of stuff eats me up personally so I have found its better just to tell the truth and take your lumps. I understand it is hard to turn someone in. But if they find out later that you knew your job may be in jeopardy and at the very least your boss will not trust you.

As for the BA its a valuable degree for many entry level jobs. We can argue all day long about rather you think someone with a BA or without is going to be a better employee. What will not change however is that more and more employers are expecting you to have a BA or a BS just to get hired like having a high school diploma was required in the old days. For me it has made a difference. It has helped me score better on promotion exams, get more points for being hired etc. Also if I want to be a chief someday its pretty much required for even small down chiefs. Large city chiefs need masters degrees. I am not trying to be an education snob and I don't think less of people that don't have degrees. But you have to be aware of the world we live in and having a BA will get you further than not having one.
Pat

tb-av

10-05-13, 00:48

@Fjallhrafn if the scenarios don't suit your morals that is fine but concerning ethics there is an expectation or requirement of a certain promise to do right.

For instance if you think cows are sacred but work for a steak house that has high ethics regarding the feeding, slaughtering, aging, cooking and serving.

You could bitch and moan all day long that they should just serve vegetarian food. At the same time though, you could abide by the ethical standards they have set for every person that decides to eat there with regards to the quality and service of the food.

Ethics are for groups and they are provided for public trust or the trust of another group. Morals are for your own personal life. If you didn't know these three questions were part of some ethics training then S1 and S3 really fall more under morals. While S2 clearly states the company has a standard regarding the lying on the resume... You can think the BA deal is morally wrong but uphold the company ethics by upholding the "no lies" policy.

The boss man never said you have to have a BA ( we got off track on that... that was never a requirement for the job ). He said if you don't have a BA, you can't lie about it on the resume. The scenario even said she went to school but she just never graduated. It's not what she lacks in paper... it's what she lacks in honesty. She lacked the willingness to abide by company rules and regulations.

SteyrAUG

10-05-13, 01:52

Scenario 1: I'd report the problem up the chain of command so they are aware of it. Most food review websites permit rebuttals so I'd address them as best I could, hopefully with a statement from upper management. On my own time I'd track them down based upon their online eating habits and **** over their cars while they are shaking down the next guy. Good luck figuring out who did it.

Scenario 2: On the face of it, you earned it and she didn't. You paid the money and did the work. That said, it's gonna come down to how I judge her as a person and what kind of person I want to be. I can imagine scenarios where I let somebody get ahead because I value things differently than many others. But if she ever crossed me in the past I'd sink her battleship without remorse.

Scenario 3: I would do my job as instructed making sure to not make any promises or get any of the candidates needlessly hopeful in order to satisfy the requirements of my position. Then I'd update my resume and do everything possible to abandon ship to a company with a little more credibility. If they can do it to them, they will eventually do it to me.

We all know how the world works, life isn't fair and connections beat ability every time. So each and every one of us has to find that balance between rewards of the job and what we are willing to do for it. I found early on I had a low threshold for compromising my values simply for money. As a result there are a lot of people with a lot more money than I have and I have had to go without this or that in the past.

And while at times it's been rough, even trying to budget food at points in my past, the only thing worse would have been being a well paid defense attorney for scumbags.

SteyrAUG

10-05-13, 02:00

S2- The only thing unethical about this was the business requiring a BA, forcing somebody to lie in order to get the job they wanted and are quite obviously competent and capable of doing and doing well. No sense destroying somebody's life, livelihood, and career over what is ultimately a trivial piece of paper.

Seriously? It's the businesses fault?

We'll shit let's not make doctors go to school to get that fancy paper. Let them do some on the job learning the way interns do it.

The difference is somebody took the time, trouble and expense to do things right way and earn a salary based upon them having taken the time, trouble and expense as a means of compensation.

But if a person doesn't invest the time, trouble and expense to get the required degree and is compensated with a salary that assumes they did, well there is your fraud, there is your bad guy. There is the lack of ethics.

Crow Hunter

10-05-13, 08:03

In these kinds of questions we are not supposed to create scenarios ( even though we all have to present a point ).

OK... thee is no time frame mentioned. Could have been yesterday, could have been 5 years ago. You now have information that may or may not be true. If true it violates your employers code which he has the right to define. That's pretty much the end of that story. It is what it is. You have been -told without proof- that you know a secret that violates company policy.

This is all pretty much irrelevant.

There is nothing in this statement that indicates you should have known about the termination due to false resume. Maybe they made the rule yesterday. Maybe they made it 10 years ago. Maybe they only become concerned with employees knowing this once they are considered for a management position and now you are being made aware. We have no way of knowing..... All we do know is that as of this instant in time you do indeed know...... regarding this dilemma... the "what we all knew in the past" has not been addressed. The "what we all know right this minute" is clear

Now when you answer that question if you consider the past you will be manufacturing information to support your decision. that is not the question. The question is take the information you are given, while not exhaustive or even totally clear, deals only with the present.

Remember you have the option to say. She confided in me that she has no BA.

Boss: wow, we checked and you are right. thank you.. you get the job.

At this point you have the job and have satisfied the scenario.

You: Well, I'm afraid I have to decline, because the fact is I have known for years and didn't feel it was my place to speak up.

Boss: Oh, I see ... which means that promotion may be short lived. So at the end of the day you got exactly what you wanted. A position based solely on your abilities and actions.

So the answer is Yes... and the answer about turning yourself in if you have supported her lie is also Yes.

Ethics are not about what you get for your good deeds. They are usually about you not getting something today such that something can't be taken from you tomorrow.

If I were the boss and someone came to me and said. "Person X confided in me that they didn't have a degree so I just wanted you to know." My first thought would be, I definitely don't want a person like that on my team. Particularly if it was to advance their personal career. Now if they just found out, overheard or otherwise discovered said information without being directly told by Person X and asked to keep it a secret, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I have worked in management for years as well as in company "Skunk works" projects all that require me to keep secret information confided to me. I would not want my employees blabbing company trade secrets to competitors or internally "classified" information that you will pick up being a member of management (info that rank and file employees do not need to know). To me, the question is : "Is it ethical to divulge something spoken to you in confidence as a means to advance your career?" not "Is it ethical to keep secrets from your employer".

I do think it is ethical to keep secrets from my employer. I do and will continue to do so. I won't lie about it if asked, but if my current employer were to ask me questions about the inner workings of my previous employer that I was asked to keep secret, I won't divulge them. (That is unlikely to happen as they are in 2 completely different industries, but that is the principle that I work on) Just like I won't tell the salaries of my previous employees or personal information that I knew about them that they told me in confidence.

_Stormin_

10-05-13, 09:31

To me, the question is : "Is it ethical to divulge something spoken to you in confidence as a means to advance your career?" not "Is it ethical to keep secrets from your employer".

The question is, "Is it ethical to knowingly conceal that someone lied about a required qualification in order to get a job?"

You're not being asked, "Would you divulge trade, or even intracompany information in order to advance within your own company?"

Person X - Has the skills and degree.
Person Y - Has the skills and misled company about degree.

I simply can't wrap my head around how anyone could see it as anything but that. I guess, as I said in my original post on this thread, that I was just raised differently than some.

Crow Hunter

10-05-13, 21:38

The question is, "Is it ethical to knowingly conceal that someone lied about a required qualification in order to get a job?"

You're not being asked, "Would you divulge trade, or even intracompany information in order to advance within your own company?"

Person X - Has the skills and degree.
Person Y - Has the skills and misled company about degree.

I simply can't wrap my head around how anyone could see it as anything but that. I guess, as I said in my original post on this thread, that I was just raised differently than some.

You see no ethical issue with divulging information that was given to you in confidence even if not to advance your own career?

I was raised that if you agreed to keep a secret, you stood by your word.

I wouldn't lie, (and I let people know up front, that I won't lie for them) if someone asked me, but it isn't something I would volunteer if someone had confided in me.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
confide [kənˈfaɪd]
vb
1. (usually foll by in; when tr, may take a clause as object) to disclose (secret or personal matters) in confidence (to); reveal in private (to)
2. (intr; foll by in) to have complete trust
3. (tr) to entrust into another's keeping
[from Latin confīdere, from fīdere to trust; related to Latin foedus treaty]
confider n

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
con•fide (kənˈfaɪd)

v. -fid•ed, -fid•ing. v.i.
1. to discuss private matters or problems (usu. fol. by in).
2. to have full trust; have faith.
v.t.
3. to tell in assurance of secrecy.
4. to entrust to the charge or knowledge of another.

The use of the word confide, as defined above, implies that you agreed to keep a secret and now you are choosing to release information for the sole purpose of advancing your career (per the scenario). Otherwise it would have been said that you overheard, were made aware of, found out, etc.

But maybe we were raised differently.

HKGuns

10-05-13, 22:25

1. Can you ask some of your employees to write bad reviews of your competitor?

2. Would it be ethical to offer free meals or cash to some of your customers to write bad reviews of your competitor—or write some good reviews about yours?

These are relatively simple and I don't understand how anyone could be confused by the ethical answer.

1. No
2. No

Is it ethical to tell upper management that she lied on her resume, when you know it will guarantee you the promotion?

In most companies you have a duty to report violations of company policy. You don't tell upper management, you inform HR what you were told by this employee so they can investigate.

Is there any ethical problem for you in writing and posting the job description, accepting applications and so on, when you know none of them will get the job?

I've been in this exact position and have posted the job, interviewed the candidates and selected the best person for the job, which wasn't the resume' given me by someone higher up in the food chain.

In most companies, HR requires you to post the position and your duty as the hiring manager is to ensure a non biased interview is conducted. To do otherwise could jeopardize YOUR job.

Alaskapopo

10-05-13, 23:02

You see no ethical issue with divulging information that was given to you in confidence even if not to advance your own career?

I was raised that if you agreed to keep a secret, you stood by your word.

I wouldn't lie, (and I let people know up front, that I won't lie for them) if someone asked me, but it isn't something I would volunteer if someone had confided in me.

The use of the word confide, as defined above, implies that you agreed to keep a secret and now you are choosing to release information for the sole purpose of advancing your career (per the scenario). Otherwise it would have been said that you overheard, were made aware of, found out, etc.

But maybe we were raised differently.

On your keeping a secret issue. What if someone you know confessed to you that they had murdered someone or raped a child. I doubt you would feel the same about keeping it secret. With me I don't want friends who put me in a bad situation. Don't ask me to lie for you or take the heat for you. One of the things I warn the cops I train is that its not just what you do that will get you fired its watching someone else do it and not saying anything.
I was on a call once with a Trooper who threatened his suspect who had wanted a blood draw (DUI arrest) and then later changed his mind (his right in this case). The trooper told him that we would hold him down while the nurses got the blood if he had to. I had him step aside and told him I would do no such thing and that I could not let him either and I informed him that I was recording as per our department policy. He back tracked on what he said. I gave the audio recording to my chief. Had I watched or let the trooper violate that mans rights my job and my freedom would have been on the line as well.
Pat

Crow Hunter

10-06-13, 07:42

On your keeping a secret issue. What if someone you know confessed to you that they had murdered someone or raped a child. I doubt you would feel the same about keeping it secret. With me I don't want friends who put me in a bad situation. Don't ask me to lie for you or take the heat for you. One of the things I warn the cops I train is that its not just what you do that will get you fired its watching someone else do it and not saying anything.
I was on a call once with a Trooper who threatened his suspect who had wanted a blood draw (DUI arrest) and then later changed his mind (his right in this case). The trooper told him that we would hold him down while the nurses got the blood if he had to. I had him step aside and told him I would do no such thing and that I could not let him either and I informed him that I was recording as per our department policy. He back tracked on what he said. I gave the audio recording to my chief. Had I watched or let the trooper violate that mans rights my job and my freedom would have been on the line as well.
Pat

If I were stupid enough to allow someone to get me to promise to keep a secret like that, then yes, my sense of honor would require me to keep that secret no matter how heinous. That doesn't mean that I would not work towards getting that person incarcerated, but it would mean that I would not immediately run to the police and tell it.

I tell someone, when they come to me and say, "Can you keep a secret?". I say, "I can, but be aware that I won't lie for you." I don't know many non-company related secrets.;)

Like I said earlier. If I found out about something, without being confided in by someone, I wouldn't have any issue reporting them at all. Similar to what you had observed. If that trooper had come to you and asked you to keep a secret and you agreed and he told you about said incident and you then reported it, that would be bad ethics in my opinion.

If the scenario had not said "confided" and advancing your own career, I would have said that I would report it. I don't have an issue with reporting violations of company policy.

There was an "engineer" that worked in my department. He spent a large portion of his day staring at his computer screen and texting on his phone. Company policy is no cell phone use allowed on company property other than in lunch rooms/break areas. His quality of work was crap, people from other departments were calling me about his design changes because his documentation was so poor. I tried, multiple times to help him, get him up to speed and show him what to do. Nothing worked. So I went to my boss and I told him what was going on (because this "engineer" was hiding what he was doing from our boss but not our fellow engineers) and that his quality of work was reflecting badly on our department. Eventually this person was fired and I don't feel bad "tattling" on him because I didn't promise to keep something a secret and it was my duty to my department and employer to do a good job.

I am only as good as my word and I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I wasn't. But I can see how some people are missing the word and context of confided and assuming that this is just information that was discovered and in that case, I wouldn't have an issue with someone doing it.

_Stormin_

10-06-13, 09:53

You see no ethical issue with divulging information that was given to you in confidence even if not to advance your own career?

If the information is a violation of a law or policy that I have committed to following, no issue. In my current company we have a rule mandating that you report violations or you're also in violation. Every company that I have worked for has had this same policy.

Truth be told, I would have notified the person choosing to confide in me IMMEDIATELY that I take issue with their lies. The people I work with are well informed of who I am, and I can't see being in the position in the first place. My colleagues know my belief in ethical behavior and the lack of leeway that that those beliefs have. In my industry there isn't room for grey area.

I was raised that if you agreed to keep a secret, you stood by your word.

And I was raised not to accommodate liars and cheats...

But maybe we were raised differently.
Yes, I believe that's the conclusion that this leads us to. No issue there. Sure that there is plenty we see eye to eye on.

MountainRaven

10-06-13, 10:52

We have a difference of opinion. In my field lying will end your career and I value honesty in my friends as well. Someone is only as good as their word. The officers I have been directly involved in their termination was due to lying. Your conscience should be your guide. If it feels wrong it probably is. If you have to come up with elaborate justifications as to why what your doing is not really wrong or that bad its probably very wrong. That kind of stuff eats me up personally so I have found its better just to tell the truth and take your lumps. I understand it is hard to turn someone in. But if they find out later that you knew your job may be in jeopardy and at the very least your boss will not trust you.

You've never lied to a suspect in an attempt to elicit a confession and/or get them to roll on a partner or boss? And when your brother officers up there have, it has resulted in them losing their jobs?

Because that happens frequently, here. Even during routine traffic stops.

Seriously? It's the businesses fault?

We'll shit let's not make doctors go to school to get that fancy paper. Let them do some on the job learning the way interns do it.

You plainly have not read through this thread and my follow-on posts, where I stated that the BA is a useful stepping stone for moving onto a doctorate.

Alaskapopo

10-06-13, 13:11

You've never lied to a suspect in an attempt to elicit a confession and/or get them to roll on a partner or boss? And when your brother officers up there have, it has resulted in them losing their jobs?

Because that happens frequently, here. Even during routine traffic stops.

You plainly have not read through this thread and my follow-on posts, where I stated that the BA is a useful stepping stone for moving onto a doctorate.
Using deception with a suspect is fine with in certain bounds established by the courts. Lying in your daily life and to your friends, co-workers, family and boss is not. You should understand the difference. In one case your dealing with a suspect who is lying to you and you are trying to find the truth. In the other case when your lying your doing so to cover your own rear or for personal gain.
Pat

Alaskapopo

10-06-13, 13:15

If I were stupid enough to allow someone to get me to promise to keep a secret like that, then yes, my sense of honor would require me to keep that secret no matter how heinous. That doesn't mean that I would not work towards getting that person incarcerated, but it would mean that I would not immediately run to the police and tell it.

I tell someone, when they come to me and say, "Can you keep a secret?". I say, "I can, but be aware that I won't lie for you." I don't know many non-company related secrets.;)

Like I said earlier. If I found out about something, without being confided in by someone, I wouldn't have any issue reporting them at all. Similar to what you had observed. If that trooper had come to you and asked you to keep a secret and you agreed and he told you about said incident and you then reported it, that would be bad ethics in my opinion.

If the scenario had not said "confided" and advancing your own career, I would have said that I would report it. I don't have an issue with reporting violations of company policy.

There was an "engineer" that worked in my department. He spent a large portion of his day staring at his computer screen and texting on his phone. Company policy is no cell phone use allowed on company property other than in lunch rooms/break areas. His quality of work was crap, people from other departments were calling me about his design changes because his documentation was so poor. I tried, multiple times to help him, get him up to speed and show him what to do. Nothing worked. So I went to my boss and I told him what was going on (because this "engineer" was hiding what he was doing from our boss but not our fellow engineers) and that his quality of work was reflecting badly on our department. Eventually this person was fired and I don't feel bad "tattling" on him because I didn't promise to keep something a secret and it was my duty to my department and employer to do a good job.

I am only as good as my word and I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I wasn't. But I can see how some people are missing the word and context of confided and assuming that this is just information that was discovered and in that case, I wouldn't have an issue with someone doing it.

One should never feel bad about "tattling". The person who should feel bad is the one who committed the crime, policy violation etc. A lot more harm than good has been done by people holding a code of silence rather than speaking up and that includes my profession as well.
Pat