View Full Version : 17 HMR upper
Bill Alexander
04-27-08, 15:40
Planning on releasing our 17 HMR upper at NRA show next month.
Everything is on target at present and I will post pictures ASAP.
There are a few more details in our industry forum.
Bill Alexander
Is this still on your radar?
Bill Alexander
02-25-09, 21:07
First production run parts are arriving and we should have units available as soon as these are together
Bill Alexander
Alaskapopo
02-26-09, 06:24
This would be a really fun idea if .17 HMR ammo did not cost so much.
Pat
Thanks Bill! Yall going to have a pre-order list :)
Bill Alexander
02-28-09, 08:33
The idea was to create a system that would shoot to 200 yards from the AR platform, provide good accuracy and suitability for small game use while at the same time being a little quieter than a full blown 5.56. Given current ammunition prices the 17 HMR is a good option but it will not compete with 22LR on cost, it was never intended to.
As soon as I have the production weapons proven out I will be taking orders. The first run is 500 units so I hope to have some stock available.
Bill Alexander
I've been hoping someone would build one of these....I'm definitely interested.
ETA: I can't find the info you mentioned in your first post. Is this going to be a heavy barrel, and will it be threaded?
I've been hounding Bill for awhile now, hopefully I'll see this or other thread when pre-orders are being taken...:eek:
Your manufacturer page here is gone....?
Thought I'd bump this back to the top for the sake of interest. Any word yet?
Bill Alexander
05-11-09, 16:09
Sorry, getting the magazines sorted out correctly is not an easy process but we are clear now. Everything else is finished and I hope to be shipping the first units soon.
Given our back orders I felt that it was inappropriate to continue to advertise product that we are not able to deliver in a timely manner. M4carbine.net provided great exposure for our company and I hope that at some time I will be in a position to advertise with the site again.
Bill Alexander
Bill,
I'm really glad to hear the Valkyrie is on track. I think it's great that you have brought this excellent little cartridge and the deservedly popular AR platform together.
Would you ever consider consider doing some .22WMR Valkyries? I'd love one in HMR but here in the UK the law prevents us from owning semi-autos in any chambering other than .22LR and .22WMR.
There are plenty of .22LR AR uppers about, of course, but nothing in WMR (despite the modernisation of the cartridge's ballistics thanks to Remington's 33-grain and CCIs 30-grain polymer-tipped loads), and now that you've got a magnum rimfire system in production, hopefully it wouldn't be too big a step to cater for both cartridges in due course?
sounds very interesting.the .17 hmr is a great round for target shooting/plinking.(not to mention smoking a varmint once in a while!)
Is there any update on this? Im hoping to see the finished version at SHOT show in a few weeks. I would buy one when released too!
Bill Alexander
12-28-09, 17:07
The announcement from Remington regarding the problems they had seen in semi auto 17 HMR rifles obviously put a substantial delay in the work while we figured out what was going on and why they were having problems. No one ever wants to discuss a problem so there was a lot of back tracking and an equal amount of testing to see if the problem existed in the system we have built. This was not only in examining the rifle designs but also extended to the powder chemistry and what specifications the rounds were being loaded to.
Happily the problem with the 17 HMR was rifle related and the cartridge remains a sound proposition for a semi automatic mechanism just as long as the design accounts for the few oddities of this caliber. Our extractor claw has proven to be most annoying and we are now on generation 3 but with a lot of problems solved. Equally we are now on generation 2 for the recoil spring as the balance for the spring/mass in this system is exemplified by it being such a small cartridge with so little firing impulse. The spring has to be perfect every time and despite the diminutive cartridge the recoil spring takes a lot of work that was not expected.
The gun is a complete joy to work with. Recoil is mild and the cartridges ability at longer ranges taxes the trigger control and ability to judge wind. Routine hits on soda can targets at 200 yards off the bipod are the norm until you let the wind get away from you or the trigger breaks badly because you did not get the correct hold. Stepping out to 300 yards I can say this caliber continues to dazzle albeit only punching paper and we spent a few too many afternoons trying to group 10 shots into the head box of a silhouette target and being confounded by the wind. Arriving the little 17 grain slugs will still punch through 3/4" ply with authority which was a surprise.
If I am raving about this gun it is not because of the gun so much as when you get back behind a full power AR. Unlike a 22 rimfire, the gun challenges you to extend ranges and then punishes mercilessly if you have the slightest err in your technique. Back on the Grendel at 600 yards, the silhouette is no longer any challenge and a 580 yard squirrel is better sport. The 17 is a phenomenal caliber in its own right but will definitely be a superb trainer.
I have already asked Grant in respect to posting pictures of the gun and the internals and he has consented to let me even though we do not currently sponsor the site. As soon as I get the pictures I will see if I cannot get them up.
I will be eschewing a stand at SHOT this year so will not be doing a formal release thing. As soon as the guns are ready I will get them up on my site and will also make sure that I let m4carbine.net know on this thread.
Bill Alexander
Hi Bill,
We in the UK would really like you to put some .22WMR barrels on a few of these & get them over here ASAP. We have .22LR ar's & we are alloud .22WMR in semi auto but nothing centre fire in semi auto, we lost them in 1988 & dearly miss them. The closest we can get to what we had would be your new AR in .22WMR
There is a rumour that CZ who already do an AR upper in .22LR may be coming out later this year with a .22WMR version but theres nothing yet.
You would have a definate market over here in the UK with a .22WMR version Bill.
Does anyone have any update info ?
Bill Alexander
02-20-10, 15:19
Sorry, not reading the forums much at present as the work is lying in ambush for me.
Just took a break from the finishing of the first guns. Everything is now ready and we will be releasing the first rifles to customers. I expect to have the information up on the web site soon and will be taking orders.
Three basic versions all with an 18" barrel. One is simply a paint job on the standard item so really two builds.
First is a free float with a vented tubs hand guard. Will do that with a dipped camo coating for the hunters who want this. The final is the same guts but we have plugged them into a monolithic receiver we worked up with Mega Machine initially for a piston operated weapon. Looks way to pretty not to include this build.
Bill Alexander
:D, i guess I don't have to bother you almost every other month..;)
Looking forward to picking one up. What will they cost?
I've been CRAVING a .17HMR AR since they released the .22LR ARs. I am very interested and plan on getting one as soon as they are available. :D
Bill Alexander
04-18-10, 11:40
Finally up, running and shipping the first units. Initial production is set up to fit a standard telescoping stock lower as I still need to get the spacers for the rifle buffer tube machined. Hopefully there is something on the AA web site by now and I will see what I can do about getting the photos up on this forum.
Interestingly once the units have settled in they run best dry and apart from wiping the chamber every 500 round or so we settled on Krylon degreaser and cleaner to blast the dirt off the bolt.
Bill Alexander
Bill Alexander
04-18-10, 11:42
Forgot to mention we will have a booth at NRA and will have the 17HMR there for examination.
Bill Alexander
How much will they cost about?
Bill Alexander
04-19-10, 06:40
The upper assembly with recoil cassette, mag block and extended magazine latch has an MSRP of $725. Complete rifles run $1175.
Bill Alexander
Please would be able to upload a few photos Bill?
Bill,
I'm really glad to hear the Valkyrie is on track. I think it's great that you have brought this excellent little cartridge and the deservedly popular AR platform together.
Would you ever consider consider doing some .22WMR Valkyries? I'd love one in HMR but here in the UK the law prevents us from owning semi-autos in any chambering other than .22LR and .22WMR.
There are plenty of .22LR AR uppers about, of course, but nothing in WMR (despite the modernisation of the cartridge's ballistics thanks to Remington's 33-grain and CCIs 30-grain polymer-tipped loads), and now that you've got a magnum rimfire system in production, hopefully it wouldn't be too big a step to cater for both cartridges in due course?
Take a look at this http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=390&t=188400
Has anyone got one of these yet?
He's got them listed on the site, just no pics :(
http://www.alexanderarms.com/siteshopper.htm?cat=16
I emailed AA for details on the upper, they said they will send me a catalog, but didn't go over the details with me. I want one of these, but would like to hear from someone who has one????
I called Alexander Arms today (6-14-2010) and asked to place an order for the AA .17HMR upper and extra 10 round magazines. The AA employee took my order info, but said AA would not be able to fill the order for at least three months. AA is to call me when the items are ready to fill my order.
Bill Alexander
06-18-10, 11:35
Sounds like my staff are being a little overcautious regarding the shipping times on this item. With any of the products we try to make sure we are realistic about the deliveries, especially with new items. Upside is that there is an instant in time when you can actually buy parts for stock but the downside is that the new production route is not a known entity.
I would say the delivery time is more like 6 weeks as we are waiting for the instruction manuals but everything else is ready.
Bill Alexander
BullittBoy
06-21-10, 15:51
Bill,
I had a Remington and a Magnum Research .17HMR semi-auto that both blew up. Have you tested this upper for extended firing-say 200rounds or more without cleaning?
Both defective rifles had the rims blow out because the "timing" was off in my opinion, the bolts were opening before the bullet was out of the barrel. The manufacturers say the guns had to be cleaned excessively, which I did every 50 rounds and they still blew up. I also found out that CCI who makes all the ammo for CCI, Hornady, Federal, and Remington would not admit to changing a powder type and the velocities were "spiking" with all the .17 HMR ammo last year-that is why they recalled all the ammo and semi-auto rifles. A multitude of issues.
Have they sorted out the ammo? I really like the cartridge in a semi-auto but I have damn near blown my hand off 2 times with 2 guns and am a little apprehensive.
Bill Alexander
06-22-10, 06:51
Interesting that you touch on a number of the issues we saw with this set up.
Per your first question, I would not regard only 200 rounds as extensive firing. During the two year period we have been working on this conversion we have fired probably well in excess in excess of 35,000 rounds. Durability sign off was a total of 15,000 rounds. One of the weapons absorbed over 10,000 of these and we would typically fire until it simply ceased to function. Once we figured that the system needed to run dry and that any lubricant was actually detrimental to the function, the gun would run between 300 and 500 rounds between needing the chamber wiping. I am still a little annoyed that I cannot find a solution to needing to wipe the chamber. The other annoyance is that for some reason the mags get dirty and to work reliably these also need to be cleaned every few thousand rounds. I would not view cleaning or lack of cleaning as influential of the safety only the reliability as the guns would cease to extract and eject with increasing regularity as the dirt accumulated.
Timing is a key issue with a blow back operation particularly one with such a small cartridge as the margin for error is so small. We found the 17HMR to be extremely abusive of the recoil spring, and a typical spring offering the correct loadings would move out of specification in only 50 to 100 rounds. The final spring design, embarrassingly still just looks like a spring but there is quite a bit involved. Equally the rim must be supported adequately by the bolt face during firing so the detail of the bolt needs attention
Ammo is stable. The powder used is probably the best yet in this cartridge and while you will always see temperature induced pressure effects at extreme conditions, the cartridges remain within the specified limits. In constructing and testing the upper we spent some extended time testing at elevated temperatures, with cartridges in some tests heated such that they could not be handled and began to soften the polymer of the magazines. I would never recommend that a rifle is used in this condition. I spent considerable time examining the ammunition and with access to both the designers, the manufacturers and the powder manufacturers, I feel that the ammunition is a victim of the problems that occurred with the rifles. We have seen variation within the ammunition, but the safety margin that should exist within the weapon should easily cope with any excursions.
Bill Alexander
Hi Bill,
Don't forget to bring out a .22 WMR version.
That would be great for us over in the UK!
Nordic Components are working on this.
BaileyMoto
07-01-10, 04:18
Good to hear that these are finally coming through!
I have a .17hm2 (Mach 2) AR and would love to add the HMR version of the .17 round to the collection.
Hi Bill,
Hows things going with the new upper?
Are you able to load up any pictures for us yet?
BaileyMoto
07-29-10, 05:19
Patiently waiting. :)
Is there anyone who has any further information on this rifle?
Looks like its all gone a bit quiet, can't find any recent information anywhere & info on the Alexander Arms site is not very informative with no photos. Hope this gets out in the open market place soon!
Bill Alexander
09-03-10, 18:22
Got guns out with the writers now. Sorry about pictures, the stress of running a new caliber upper out in the market is intense especially as everyone is expecting failure. Olga Volk (?) the photographer has some of the first public shots on his web site and we ran a gun out with Jay Langston who is writing an article for Harris Complete AR Rifleman.
New web site is due up very soon and we have a new look with much better photos.
Bill Alexander
Fantastic review in Complete AR Rifleman.
BaileyMoto
10-14-10, 10:26
Fantastic review in Complete AR Rifleman.
Any chance you can scan the article in? In Iraq right now..no way to get it.
Hope this helps?
I can't skan it in as its on 3 pages intermingled with adverts and links.
[URL="http://www.tactical-life.com/online/exclusives/tiny-17-hmr-titan/"]
Hi Bill,
I am very pleased to see that the .17 HMR is now available to order.
1, Have any been done or tested with in the .22 WMR yet?
It would seem logical to offer it in this cal as all that has to be fitted is the .22 WMR barrel & everything else should be the same.
2, I might also suggest offering this as a kit because a lot of people will have AR 15's with the correct .224 centerfire barrel diameter and with the old 1" in 12" twist rate so they should be able to just put your kit in and go and shoot .22 WMR with it. I'm not sure but it appears to me that in some states and at some point in the year .22 WMR / magnum is 'the only option' for night time shooting of anything larger than a rabbit isn't it?
3, Do you know if you have a dealer yet over her in the UK?
If not, I know of couple that may be interested in bringing this rifle over here in it's .22 WMR / magnum format.
Bill Alexander
11-21-10, 11:13
We have high speed video of the feed/ejection cycle up on our site now. The unit shown is a production standard, but lacks the relief cut behind the extractor. This was instigated to help relieve the chances of stove piping if case tension from the extractor lets the case move off the bolt face. We use a dovetail undercut on the extractor side of the bolt face to control case position, but the rim of a 17 HMR is not the best thing to hang on to, so every little helps.
Looking back, the first drawings were on the boards nearly 3 years ago. While the base unit amazingly still closely resembles those first prints, I truly do not think we understood the complexity of the task and the vagaries of the blow back mechanism. I have fired more rimfire ammunition over this time than most individuals may every see and cleared more jams than any sane person should.
The 22 WMR was not really considered as part of this task but it is a logical extension of the work. The upper reciever is a completely dedicated set up with its own barrel extension and feed ramp. The bolt closely resembles a 9mm bolt and the recoil mechanism is housed in a cassette in the buffer tube area. The unit is very different from a Atchisson or Ciener, and while a solution for an existing barrelled upper could be created, general sales of uppers to the current format will take a presidence if the 22 WMR works out. I have barrels due in now but no testing to date.
I have not considered sales to the UK as I concentrate on the domestic US market. I do some work with Lower Mills Ranges (who are exceptionally patient with the US Customs and State Dept).
Bill Alexander
Hi Bill,
Have you got the .22 WMR barrels in now, any update?
Bill Alexander
12-15-10, 11:45
22 WMR barrels are in, extensions are on and I need to cut extractor grooves. I have the new extractors, the production route is proven and new mag springs should arrive before Friday.
Looks like Christmas is going to be reserved for testing.
Bill Alexander
Thats fantastic good news!
Where did you get the barrels from & what twist rate are they Bill?
Enjoy the testing!
22 WMR barrels are in, extensions are on and I need to cut extractor grooves. I have the new extractors, the production route is proven and new mag springs should arrive before Friday.
Looks like Christmas is going to be reserved for testing.
Bill Alexander
I am very interested in this. I have always had an unnatural love for the .22 Mag.
Bill Alexander
12-25-10, 07:36
Happy Christmas.
We have a 22WMR. Testing showed the bolt to be a little heavy but it is easy to flute the sides and bring the weight down. I only ran Hornady ammunition and need to run a few thousand to verify everything is good but working from the 17 HMR the design is well proven.
What was a pleasant surprise was that the recoil arrangement did not require alteration. In effect it should be possible to run the 17 and the 22 off the same lower.
Barrels are from E.R. Shaw and I run a 12 twist with a standard chamber. Less than an 1" at 100 yards and good for cans at 200 with a 1-4x22 Bushnell.
Bill Alexander
BaileyMoto
12-25-10, 09:16
Awesome!
Happy Christmas.
We have a 22WMR. Testing showed the bolt to be a little heavy but it is easy to flute the sides and bring the weight down. I only ran Hornady ammunition and need to run a few thousand to verify everything is good but working from the 17 HMR the design is well proven.
What was a pleasant surprise was that the recoil arrangement did not require alteration. In effect it should be possible to run the 17 and the 22 off the same lower.
Barrels are from E.R. Shaw and I run a 12 twist with a standard chamber. Less than an 1" at 100 yards and good for cans at 200 with a 1-4x22 Bushnell.
Bill Alexander
Interesting twist rate for a .22 WMR, should do really well with the longer 50grn .22 WMR bullets. Fairly fast a twist rate for the shorter 30grners. Much better than 1-16 that is too slow & out of date for modern .22WMR ammunition.
Good to hear that no modification was needed to the recoil arrangement you already have.
As far as removing material from the bolt to lighten it, perhaps you could cut the vertical grove required for the ejection port dust cover to work.
I'm really glad you are already getting sub 1 MOA !
Bill Alexander
12-27-10, 07:41
The ejection port cover latch groove is deliberately omited. In creating the 17 HMR the balance is extremely critical. If the bolt was designed to reliably operate and unlatch the cover it would be too lightly sprung when the cover is not latched and case head failures could occur.
As the feature was not used we used the space for the extractor spring. The extractor in this is much heavier than the typical 22 LR, being pivoted round a cross pin rather than latched in place.
I would have liked to have a functioning port cover but proved at odds to the rest of the set up.
Bill Alexander
Hi Bill,
I've started up a new thread : .22 WMR AR's
You may want to contribute to it in view of now having a .22 WMR in the works & this thread is about your 17 HMR upper.
Hope you Christmas testing has gone really well,
Happy new year!
Anymore news on this? I really want one of these but would like to hear some feedback from someone who has ordered one?
Orders are being taken by Alexander Arms so it cant be far off now.
Bill Alexander
04-17-11, 09:57
The first customers (not writers!) will recieve guns this month and I am sending out units to our Beta test guys at the same time. We are donating a unit for the NRA fundraiser at the end of this month.
The last few months of getting this running have been excrutiating, between finding the little glitches in production and testing for problems in build quality guns it has been busy.
As part of this project we have extended the indoor test fixture to allow every unit to be fired as it is manufactured.
Bill Alexander
The first customers (not writers!) will recieve guns this month and I am sending out units to our Beta test guys at the same time. We are donating a unit for the NRA fundraiser at the end of this month.
The last few months of getting this running have been excrutiating, between finding the little glitches in production and testing for problems in build quality guns it has been busy.
As part of this project we have extended the indoor test fixture to allow every unit to be fired as it is manufactured.
Bill Alexander
Some of you lucky people must have had your new guns by now so come on, show them off & give us the reviews please.
Some of you lucky people must have had your new guns by now so come on, show them off & give us the reviews please.
The 1st 'customer' picture & short review is in the industry section on another 'AR' site on the Alexander Arms .17 HMR upper.
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