View Full Version : VIDEO: Oregon State Police Shooting
F-Trooper05
10-04-13, 10:43
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1gYEG1TzBk
Scary Stuff. Dude definitely went on the offensive quickly and tried to dominate the fight right out of the gate.
Oregon State Police Thursday released a dramatic video showing the gun battle that unfolded in August on Interstate 84 about 100 miles east of Portland, ending in the death of a Portland motorist. Responding officers found the officer suffering a gunshot wound. They found Allen’s car a half mile down the freeway, parked on the shoulder. Allen was dead, shot once in the chest.
The bad guy had 3 kids in the car with him, as per news reports.
That's a bad day on the job for the LEO. I would have liked the opportunity to interview him about what occurred during the incident and incorporate what was learned into future training.
Whoa.. that is scary. That dude had your not so average ganbanger pistol control and movement it seemed like. Even though I know the movies are fake, its so ingrained in me to assume that a bullet to the chest would stop someone; clearly actions do not stop. Glad officer is OK and trash was taken out.
Mo_Zam_Beek
10-04-13, 10:55
What all is going on there?
The audio is bad but it seems like the driver had a really slow draw and the trooper was dumping rounds before the driver had actually presented his weapon. Then it seemed the driver crossed in front of the trooper's car, hit his mag release and lost his mag - thereby taking himself out of the fight (sans 1 round off camera - maybe?), then moved back around front to retrieve the mag and then failed to rack the slide but covered the trooper as he jumped back in his car for the get a way.
Is that about right?
I'm all for officers being polite and respectful but he needed to ramp it up much faster with the way dude was noncompliant and kept approaching. Thankfully he wasn't seriously injured and managed to still put the bad dude down.
I'm all for officers being polite and respectful but he needed to ramp it up much faster with the way dude was noncompliant and kept approaching. Thankfully he wasn't seriously injured and managed to still put the bad dude down.
Not playing games here but what do you think he could have done?
Thanks
I'm all for officers being polite and respectful but he needed to ramp it up much faster with the way dude was noncompliant and kept approaching. Thankfully he wasn't seriously injured and managed to still put the bad dude down.
Completely agree...I'm not leo, and generally hate monday morning QBing shit....but that dude was telegraphing his deadly intent if I've ever seen it.
It honestly looked like he wanted a suicide by cop...9.5/10 times, that's what would have played out in that video I'm guessing.
eta
Not playing games here but what do you think he could have done?
Thanks
Beat his ass to the punch and put a few rounds in him first.....the cop would have been covered no doubt....and it was on film
Not playing games here but what do you think he could have done?
Thanks
Uh, dude got out of the car not showing his hands... That's a pretty clear indication for me to stop asking anything of the guy. I mean, I'm not a cop, but I know you are not supposed to do that. If I did that, I'd expect the cop to be ready to pull the trigger, now if the dude starts walking towards me, nope, it's over.
Yea, looks like he dropped the mag accidentally and not a reload. Also, pretty clear indication that one round even center mass will not necessarily stop the right. And it's likely the cop was using a 40 with decent HP ammo. Just another reason I think 9mm is the way to go.
Was this video edited or is there some delay at the point which the bad guy drew his gun ?
Just curious because the hand positions seemed to shift at the point where the gun was on the officer.
I'm glad the officer is ok.
Whoa.. that is scary. That dude had your not so average ganbanger pistol control and movement it seemed like. Even though I know the movies are fake, its so ingrained in me to assume that a bullet to the chest would stop someone; clearly actions do not stop. Glad officer is OK and trash was taken out.I read the comments posted for vid and one said that he was in the reserves. Not sayin he had great moves, but he was more than run of the mill banger.EDIT from vid comments "This incident happened on Aug. 29, 2013 on I84 in Oregon near Portland. The shooter, John Van Allen, 34, had three of his children in the car with him. He was headed back to his home in S.C.. He served in the U.S. Army Reserve as a construction engineer from 2009 until 2012"
Not playing games here but what do you think he could have done?
Thanks
You get one chance to show me your hands, and then the gun comes out. Granted this MMQB and I knew a shooting was going to happen, but as I watched the video I could not help notice he obviously was hiding his hand behind his back. Of course the LEO may have had his gun out just like I said.
You get one chance to show me your hands, and then the gun comes out. Granted this MMQB and I knew a shooting was going to happen, but as I watched the video I could not help notice he obviously was hiding his hand behind his back. Of course the LEO may have had his gun out just like I said.
Noodles. Uh, dude got out of the car not showing his hands... That's a pretty clear indication for me to stop asking anything of the guy. I mean, I'm not a cop, but I know you are not supposed to do that. If I did that, I'd expect the cop to be ready to pull the trigger, now if the dude starts walking towards me, nope, it's over.
First, are you a LEO? If so, you're telling me you can use deadly force because someone won't show you their hands?
First, are you a LEO? If so, you're telling me you can use deadly force because someone won't show you their hands?
I said gun comes out, how do you infer start shooting from that?
I said gun comes out, how do you infer start shooting from that?
...okay and then...?
...okay and then...?
action is faster than reaction. guy doesn't comply with a peaceible show of hands, then the gun comes out. if there's compliance then the gun can be reholstered. if there's an escalation then the officer saves at least 1.5 seconds drawing. 1.5 seconds is a long time considering most shootings are done within 7 seconds.
Glad the officer got out alive and without serious injury. Glad the POS is dead and his kids didn't get lit up accidentally.
The LEO could have ramped up the response faster, although we have no way of knowing what he was doing as we can only hear him issuing verbal commands. Unfortunately, LEO and CCW people are always going to be playing catch up. We can't draw down on people not posing a threat. The POS could just as easily reached for a wallet instead of a gun trying to make a civil rights point or whatever. It's a sad thing, but in all honesty probably the correct stance as these events are still a minority. We can't have people pointing guns at each other because someone didn't follow commands fast enough. That's how accidents happen and innocent people get killed.
On a more tinfoil look... WTF is up with these reservists??
Glad the officer got out alive and without serious injury. Glad the POS is dead and his kids didn't get lit up accidentally.
The LEO could have ramped up the response faster, although we have no way of knowing what he was doing as we can only hear him issuing verbal commands. Unfortunately, LEO and CCW people are always going to be playing catch up. We can't draw down on people not posing a threat. The POS could just as easily reached for a wallet instead of a gun trying to make a civil rights point or whatever. It's a sad thing, but in all honesty probably the correct stance as these events are still a minority. We can't have people pointing guns at each other because someone didn't follow commands fast enough. That's how accidents happen and innocent people get killed.
On a more tinfoil look... WTF is up with these reservists??
i don't want to monday morning quarterback, but i do want to play devil's advocate.
just a comment: that guy's presassult indicators were pretty glowing. posture, stance, nonverbals, he was looking high and low and itching for a fight.
for those who have read lone survivor, american law enforcement face the same situation that is detailed in that book and that situation is essentially blamed for the outcome of those who were lost. i don't think anyone except those privvy to the decision should be able to say anything about it, but i will say that the media and the general public of the united states are constantly waiting to skewer law enforcement who kill in the line of duty.
the fear of that public/media backlash and the other negative outcomes is what causes hesitation. imagine the mind**** that happens when in the middle of a gunfight, all an officer can think of is the amount of paperwork he will have to do or the personal, social, and professional difficulties that will arise in the next two years and beyond because he's used his firearm. that creates hesitation.
also in general, law enforcement personnel are taught or seek to protect and there may be a disconnect between the sentiment of killing and the sentiment of protecting in the philosophy of many people nad that may also create hesitation.
in any case, this makes for very difficult decisions under stress and the american public is not blameless for it.
action is faster than reaction. guy doesn't comply with a peaceible show of hands, then the gun comes out. if there's compliance then the gun can be reholstered. if there's an escalation then the officer saves at least 1.5 seconds drawing. 1.5 seconds is a long time considering most shootings are done within 7 seconds.
This.
To TAZ who wrote there is was no clear indication of threat....
Out of the car at a traffic stop + no hands + won't respond to commands == THREAT.
This.
To TAZ who wrote there is was no clear indication of threat....
Out of the car at a traffic stop + no hands + won't respond to commands == THREAT.
Again...are you a LEO? Do you know the UoF continuum for this officer's dept? I am genuinely interested.
Thanks
ForTehNguyen
10-04-13, 16:06
yea the guy hit his own mag release and you can see the mag fly out and him retrieving it
more info, 3 children/juvelines in the back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_EBE96YzvE&feature=endscreen
HANDS, Let me see your HANDS!!!!
I'm conflicted by this. Do I really want that guy back in the vehicle??? Or do I want to go ahead and get him in cuffs due to his (how I would perceive) aggressive demeanor.
I don't know about any other Officer, but when someone hops out like that on a traffic stop the gun is automatically coming out. It can always go back in the holster, like if they bolt. Now if they act like that.....I'm ready to roll.
Very glad this Troop is still with us.
imagine the mind**** that happens when in the middle of a gunfight, all an officer can think of is the amount of paperwork he will have to do or the personal, social, and professional difficulties that will arise in the next two years and beyond because he's used his firearm. that creates hesitation.
I doubt there is any LEO, or .mil, or civilian, anywhere in the known universe, as well as the unknown universe, that "when in the middle of a gunfight", all they can think of is the amount of paperwork they will have to do or the personal, social, and professional difficulties that will arise in the next two years and beyond because he's used his firearm.
I doubt there is any LEO, or .mil, or civilian, anywhere in the known universe, as well as the unknown universe, that "when in the middle of a gunfight", all they can think of is the amount of paperwork they will have to do or the personal, social, and professional difficulties that will arise in the next two years and beyond because he's used his firearm.
No, but hesitation has become an epidemic lately in LE due to the brass and their pencil pushing tactics that are getting cops killed.
I doubt there is any LEO, or .mil, or civilian, anywhere in the known universe, as well as the unknown universe, that "when in the middle of a gunfight", all they can think of is the amount of paperwork they will have to do or the personal, social, and professional difficulties that will arise in the next two years and beyond because he's used his firearm.
i've heard the anecdote...
Again...are you a LEO? Do you know the UoF continuum for this officer's dept? I am genuinely interested.
Thanks
What's the point in asking this question? Nothing stated in this thread so far is really wrong. Pre-assault indicators, failure to display hands, failure to comply with verbal commands, etc., all on display here.
The UoF continuum (which many dept's have abandoned) is not linear. You don't have to use each and every step before presenting the firearm.
My point being, I'd have drawn and taken cover behind the cruiser well before this motorist actually presented the gun. My dept. would agree wth this course of action. I can't imagine the OSP disagreeing either.
What's the point in asking this question? Nothing stated in this thread so far is really wrong. Pre-assault indicators, failure to display hands, failure to comply with verbal commands, etc., all on display here.
The UoF continuum (which many dept's have abandoned) is not linear. You don't have to use each and every step before presenting the firearm.
My point being, I'd have drawn and taken cover behind the cruiser well before this motorist actually presented the gun. My dept. would agree wth this course of action. I can't imagine the OSP disagreeing either.
A1 spot on.
What's the point in asking this question? Nothing stated in this thread so far is really wrong. Pre-assault indicators, failure to display hands, failure to comply with verbal commands, etc., all on display here.
The UoF continuum (which many dept's have abandoned) is not linear. You don't have to use each and every step before presenting the firearm.
My point being, I'd have drawn and taken cover behind the cruiser well before this motorist actually presented the gun. My dept. would agree wth this course of action. I can't imagine the OSP disagreeing either.
there are plenty of agencies and leaders that are waiting to hang their people out to dry when it comes to use of force. this has everything to do with media and public perception. it's a shame.
while the use of force coninuum is not linear and there are no such provisions in any of the use of force case law, each individual agency has its own internal policy. sometimes being hosed by your employer is worse than being hosed by the the shitbag who shoots at you.
imagine if it were the case for this guy, he gets shot and can't work for a few days because he has bruised ribs from taking one of the armor and his employer isn't going to pay him and he didn't have aflac? plus he gets buried in paperwork, plus he gets to ride a desk until the investigation is over, plus he has medical bills to contend with that again his agency doesn't want any part of it... shitty times for that guy all because his specific agency may or may not want to recognize that the use of force continuum is not linear. we can't act like this doesn't happen, it does.
bad policies create impossible situations for individuals to make under stress. it always takes someone dying or being maimed on the job to un**** bad policy.
What's the point in asking this question? Nothing stated in this thread so far is really wrong. Pre-assault indicators, failure to display hands, failure to comply with verbal commands, etc., all on display here.
The UoF continuum (which many dept's have abandoned) is not linear. You don't have to use each and every step before presenting the firearm.
My point being, I'd have drawn and taken cover behind the cruiser well before this motorist actually presented the gun. My dept. would agree wth this course of action. I can't imagine the OSP disagreeing either.
My question started with this post:
I'm all for officers being polite and respectful but he needed to ramp it up much faster with the way dude was noncompliant and kept approaching. Thankfully he wasn't seriously injured and managed to still put the bad dude down.
I simply asked what else the officer could have done in the hope of getting an informed response from someone (apparently you).
So after your post I have a couple of other questions:
The UoF continuum (which many dept's have abandoned) is not linear.
What has it been replaced with?
My point being, I'd have drawn and taken cover behind the cruiser well before this motorist actually presented the gun. My dept. would agree wth this course of action. I can't imagine the OSP disagreeing either.
...and if the guy is still advancing on you as in the video, then what?
Thanks
Not playing games here but what do you think he could have done?
Thanks
Personally, I think he should've changed his tone from "Please sir..." and requesting action to demanding action "Get in the ****ing car NOW!" or "Show me your hands right ****ing NOW!"
Dude pops out, in BDU's, ignores the niceties, politeness and explanation for the stop, shuts his door and starts sauntering with hand behind back... Body language, demeanor, noncompliance... I just think he would've been justified in ratcheting it up a few notches prior to shots fired.
As far as Oregon's SOP for interaction, they can not demand he get back in the car and it is not considered interference unless he's truly interfering. From an Oregon police officer on the subject from TPI.
Here in Oregon we can't compel the occupants to stay inside the vehicle. As long as the driver sticks around (or anyone else you can Terry Stop) that's all that's required. Obviously if they start impeding traffic, etc, you have options...
Our interfering statute is fairly limited and the popular view is as long as they aren't ACTUALLY interfering with us, just standing there outside their vehicle, they're fine.
...and if the guy is still advancing on you as in the video, then what?
Thanks
Then he is in a better position to survive the inevitable shootout, that is what.
The uniform might have slowed him down a bit too. I think the officer did well. It is a shitty situation to be in. When I see BDU's I think good guy/girl.
I think the officer did well. It is a shitty situation to be in.
+1
He may also have done everything discussed here too, we do not have video of him, but I think it is a good thing the perp lost his mag....
Then he is in a better position to survive the inevitable shootout, that is what.
You might consider this... until the BG presented a weapon, was there really an "inevitable" shootout?
and maybe something else to ponder...if the BG had closed the distance a bit more before opening fire...the outcome could have been more in doubt.
FWIW, it doesn't look like this guy could have been intimidated into compliance by voice commands.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-04-13, 17:24
Looks like he did OK to me.
My question started with this post:
I simply asked what else the officer could have done in the hope of getting an informed response from someone (apparently you).
So after your post I have a couple of other questions:
What has it been replaced with?
...and if the guy is still advancing on you as in the video, then what?
Thanks
No problem. In many agencies, it's been replaced with internal policies and guidance not encapsulated within a simple graph. That's both good and bad, depending on the viewpoint the agency takes towards use of force. Do they support and back thier officers or do they look for reasons to hang paper on them?
As for the second question, continue to use verbal commands, continue to use the cruiser as cover and call for backup. Eventually something is going to change, one way or another. :(
Looks like he did OK to me.
He survived, which is the ultimate goal. I think he could've done a couple of things a little better, but they wouldn't necessarily change anything about the outcome.
You might consider this... until the BG presented a weapon, was there really an "inevitable" shootout?
Mindset I guess.
Eta
Do you know when the OSP drew his weapon?
Alaskapopo
10-04-13, 19:21
And some people think its not a dangerous job. Easy to quarterback after the fact but I would not have stopped shooting to talk on the radio. Also the suspects body language suggested he had a gun right out of the gate. His right hand is behind his back like its on a pistol which it was. Gun would have came out of the holster at that point and hopefully it was for the officer. Glad the officer is ok and that the suspect is dead.
Pat
Mindset I guess.
Eta
Do you know when the OSP drew his weapon?
No but I was hoping someone else did. From what I can tell in the vid it sounds like the officer engaged almost simultaneously so he may have had it out or at least holster free.
Alaskapopo
10-04-13, 19:24
Personally, I think he should've changed his tone from "Please sir..." and requesting action to demanding action "Get in the ****ing car NOW!" or "Show me your hands right ****ing NOW!"
Dude pops out, in BDU's, ignores the niceties, politeness and explanation for the stop, shuts his door and starts sauntering with hand behind back... Body language, demeanor, noncompliance... I just think he would've been justified in ratcheting it up a few notches prior to shots fired.
As far as Oregon's SOP for interaction, they can not demand he get back in the car and it is not considered interference unless he's truly interfering. From an Oregon police officer on the subject from TPI.
I agree but we live in an age when cops get written up for using language like that. I remember one of my first felony stops when the suspect refused to comply with me after 2 commands I changed my tone to get back in the ****ing car and that got his attention and he did.
Pat
Alaskapopo
10-04-13, 19:26
i don't want to monday morning quarterback, but i do want to play devil's advocate.
just a comment: that guy's presassult indicators were pretty glowing. posture, stance, nonverbals, he was looking high and low and itching for a fight.
for those who have read lone survivor, american law enforcement face the same situation that is detailed in that book and that situation is essentially blamed for the outcome of those who were lost. i don't think anyone except those privvy to the decision should be able to say anything about it, but i will say that the media and the general public of the united states are constantly waiting to skewer law enforcement who kill in the line of duty.
the fear of that public/media backlash and the other negative outcomes is what causes hesitation. imagine the mind**** that happens when in the middle of a gunfight, all an officer can think of is the amount of paperwork he will have to do or the personal, social, and professional difficulties that will arise in the next two years and beyond because he's used his firearm. that creates hesitation.
also in general, law enforcement personnel are taught or seek to protect and there may be a disconnect between the sentiment of killing and the sentiment of protecting in the philosophy of many people nad that may also create hesitation.
in any case, this makes for very difficult decisions under stress and the american public is not blameless for it.
Generally in an officer involved shooting there is little to no paperwork for the officer that was involved. That is for the officers that investigate the shooting.
Pat
Moose-Knuckle
10-04-13, 19:49
Trooper went home in time for dinner, oxygen thief takes a dirt nap, I say this was an all-around good outcome to a bad situation.
One thing from the video, the perp didn't even appear to be effected by the shot. I didn't even realize he was shot and feared he murdered the trooper off camera the first time I saw the video. Goes to show how powerful adrenaline can be.
As for harsh language, yeah some people only understand one language.
Im very interested to know why? Why do that? Off his meds? Went mental? Ptsd...:rolleyes:?
Again, very glad the Trooper survived. And you can second guess all day, shit happens fast ( I think the whole thing took less than 15secs).
I had a guy hop out on me one night and start coming back to my car and it happened so fast he was at his rear quarter panel before I got out of my car and my gun out. (luckily for me he didn't have malice intentions)
I think the guy did a great job.
Moose-Knuckle
10-04-13, 20:08
Im very interested to know why? Why do that? Off his meds? Went mental? Ptsd...:rolleyes:?
Especially with his children in the car. This did not look like a suicide by cop as he had every intention of getting away.
Trooper went home in time for dinner, oxygen thief takes a dirt nap, I say this was an all-around good outcome to a bad situation.
One thing from the video, the perp didn't even appear to be effected by the shot. I didn't even realize he was shot and feared he murdered the trooper off camera the first time I saw the video. Goes to show how powerful adrenaline can be.
As for harsh language, yeah some people only understand one language.
I saw what looked like the round(s) impacting his shirt right before he spun abruptly to his right.
FlyingHunter
10-04-13, 21:12
So glad the officer will be ok - scary stuff. Prayers out for his complete recovery.
I agree but we live in an age when cops get written up for using language like that. I remember one of my first felony stops when the suspect refused to comply with me after 2 commands I changed my tone to get back in the ****ing car and that got his attention and he did.
Pat
One of the reasons to "start off nice." Psychologically, the change in tone from friendly to profane indicates an escalation of the situation that will get some people to comply. If you start at "11" there is nowhere to turn it up to...
Wonder if the officers best caught the round. He mentions being hit but being OK.
Alaskapopo
10-04-13, 21:44
One of the reasons to "start off nice." Psychologically, the change in tone from friendly to profane indicates an escalation of the situation that will get some people to comply. If you start at "11" there is nowhere to turn it up to...
Wonder if the officers best caught the round. He mentions being hit but being OK.
I heard from an officer who saw an article on it on police one that his vest saved him.
I am not going to second guess what the LEO did in this incident, because I did not see and hear everything that happened before shots were exchanged.
From experience I can tell you that a LEO should always start off polite and professional, but needs to have the mindset to go from 0 to 150 mph in a microsecond when things go south. If things go smoothly, that is great, but you should always be ready for things to turn to mud.
Only admin pogues worry about complaints when it comes to dealing with aggressive individuals.
Alaskapopo
10-04-13, 22:52
This video is also a great teacher on how handguns are not great stoppers. You need to fire until the threat is down and that may take a lot of rounds in a short amount of time.
Pat
Moose-Knuckle
10-05-13, 01:25
Only admin pogues worry about complaints when it comes to dealing with aggressive individuals.
Spot on. The ass clowns I work for get bent around the axle over the possibility of someone filing a complaint instead of issues they should concern themselves with such as officer safety.
Alaskapopo
10-05-13, 01:28
Spot on. The ass clowns I work for get bent around the axle over the possibility of someone filing a complaint instead of issues they should concern themselves with such as officer safety.
Well the reality is officers are worrying and a lot of getting hurt for not using enough force fast enough. I agree that attitude needs to change.
Pat
This guy is the reason I get to experience some combination of: putting hands up/on trunk, spreading legs, getting felt up, disarmed, put in back seat of cruiser, two backup units called, having to refuse to verbally agree to search, refusing to sign a paper that gives my permission to search, watching as my car and trunk are searched anyway while being told it isn't a "search," every time I go through a roadblock or get pulled over for a 'license plate light that's too dim,' despite 'yes siring' and obeying everything but consent to search.
I cringe every time I see an on-duty cop now and immediately classify them the same way I do a shady guy hanging around a parking lot: likely threat. I want nothing more than to get the hell away from them- and it pisses me off thinking about it. That's not that way it's supposed to be.
With this kind of violent attack being so random in common traffic stops, anyone could be a lethal encounter so a cop has to be dialed to orange on every stop. What good guy wants to put up with cameras and management looking over his shoulder, the public treating him like he's a schoolyard bully, and having to treat every person he sees like a thug to keep from getting killed?
My impression is that our society has changed the job into one that is best suited for low-IQ bullies and psychopaths and is hell for anyone else. What the hell kind of granite and tungsten are you guys' skin and balls made of that you can stand to put up with this for 10+ years?
I'm sick to death of being treated like a criminal, seeing disappointment on faces when my permit and papers come back 'legit,' and getting mocked on my departure for carrying a gun or pepper spray by guys wearing drop holsters around their knees. I realize it must suck on the the other end as well.
Is there any way to get this process fixed so I don't get to be the 34th guy you've had to handle on condition orange today?
Alaskapopo
10-05-13, 04:52
This guy is the reason I get to experience some combination of: putting hands up/on trunk, spreading legs, getting felt up, disarmed, put in back seat of cruiser, two backup units called, having to refuse to verbally agree to search, refusing to sign a paper that gives my permission to search, watching as my car and trunk are searched anyway while being told it isn't a "search," every time I go through a roadblock or get pulled over for a 'license plate light that's too dim,' despite 'yes siring' and obeying everything but consent to search.
I cringe every time I see an on-duty cop now and immediately classify them the same way I do a shady guy hanging around a parking lot: likely threat. I want nothing more than to get the hell away from them- and it pisses me off thinking about it. That's not that way it's supposed to be.
With this kind of violent attack being so random in common traffic stops, anyone could be a lethal encounter so a cop has to be dialed to orange on every stop. What good guy wants to put up with cameras and management looking over his shoulder, the public treating him like he's a schoolyard bully, and having to treat every person he sees like a thug to keep from getting killed?
My impression is that our society has changed the job into one that is best suited for low-IQ bullies and psychopaths and is hell for anyone else. What the hell kind of granite and tungsten are you guys' skin and balls made of that you can stand to put up with this for 10+ years?
I'm sick to death of being treated like a criminal, seeing disappointment on faces when my permit and papers come back 'legit,' and getting mocked on my departure for carrying a gun or pepper spray by guys wearing drop holsters around their knees. I realize it must suck on the the other end as well.
Is there any way to get this process fixed so I don't get to be the 34th guy you've had to handle on condition orange today?
Just remain calm and police and don't jump out of the vehicle. Traffic stops have always been the highest killers of cops at least as far back as I can remember. You have to be keyed in.
Pat
Nightvisionary
10-05-13, 05:11
I agree but we live in an age when cops get written up for using language like that. I remember one of my first felony stops when the suspect refused to comply with me after 2 commands I changed my tone to get back in the ****ing car and that got his attention and he did.
Pat
The late Doc Thompson as well as Marine Corps drill instructors seem to get the job done quite well without actually using profanity.
You have to be keyed in.
Pat
I know, I just wish there was some way for procedures and society to change so you guys could know when to expect contact and when you could stay condition yellow rather than playing the always-condition-orange 'get-lied-to/get-cussed-at/get-shot-at' Magic Eight Ball game all day every day.
Thanks for the advice. It's what I always do.
The late Doc Thompson as well as Marine Corps drill instructors seem to get the job done quite well without actually using profanity.
While true, when a man is in the shoes of that Trooper, wheither lead flys or not, if he believes lead will fly his actions and words will revert to a primal base. If he swears a lot in trusted company, the odds of the 7 forbidden bad words flying are very high.
OP, thanks for posting that video. It's so easy to say to yourself if a lethal encounter occurs I'm going to do this, this, this. We have to understand that the majority of people out there, LEO's included, do not possess the mean gene. Some do, but it takes a ton of pressure or push to make it come out. If you are a member here, odds are you are self defense minded and "get it", but it's important to always remember that most do not. The Trooper may have been a bit slow catching on or going to high order violence with verbal commands, but he survived and went home. When dude got out of the car he was sizing up the Trooper. When he shut the door, he had made his decision. Could more aggression from the Trooper from earlier on changed things? Maybe, maybe not. Something the perp saw made him think he could take the Trooper. I'm not saying the Trooper did a thing wrong, just saying this perp in a primal face off, saw something that led him to feel he would be the victor. To me this video reinforces a study I had read some time ago where the author had researched and interviewed convicted cop killers, and why they did what they did and what drove the decision. A large number of the answers were along the lines of they could tell the officer had a non-combative mindset with no aggression and that the officer's weapon/uniform was dirty/unkept. Again not saying this Trooper did a thing wrong, but if something can be learned I feel it is interupting the perps OODA loop when he was deciding/building himself up by the car just prior to shutting the door might have changed the tempo of the encounter....or not. Doing that though would require the LEO to be very situationally aware and fast acting, literally a LE Superstar. Going from a routine traffic stop to that place would be extremely hard for any human, if not impossible for most.
Good Job Trooper and yet another reason to never let your guard down.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-05-13, 05:58
The late Doc Thompson as well as Marine Corps drill instructors seem to get the job done quite well without actually using profanity.
I cant recall my Marine Corps Drill Instructors ever not using profanity.
And as a former Marine that jumped right into LE, it sure is hard not to yell something a little more primal when the SHTF.
The driver displayed some pre-incident indicators. The most disturbing to me was immediately jumping out of the vehicle and placing his hand behind his back. Glad he is taking his dirt nap. Too bad for the kiddos to be wrapped up in that nonsense.
I cringe every time I see an on-duty cop now and immediately classify them the same way I do a shady guy hanging around a parking lot: likely threat. I want nothing more than to get the hell away from them- and it pisses me off thinking about it. That's not that way it's supposed to be.
With this kind of violent attack being so random in common traffic stops, anyone could be a lethal encounter so a cop has to be dialed to orange on every stop. What good guy wants to put up with cameras and management looking over his shoulder, the public treating him like he's a schoolyard bully, and having to treat every person he sees like a thug to keep from getting killed?
My impression is that our society has changed the job into one that is best suited for low-IQ bullies and psychopaths and is hell for anyone else. What the hell kind of granite and tungsten are you guys' skin and balls made of that you can stand to put up with this for 10+ years?
I'm sick to death of being treated like a criminal, seeing disappointment on faces when my permit and papers come back 'legit,' and getting mocked on my departure for carrying a gun or pepper spray by guys wearing drop holsters around their knees. I realize it must suck on the the other end as well.
Is there any way to get this process fixed so I don't get to be the 34th guy you've had to handle on condition orange today?
Wow dude, I'm going to take a WILD GUESS here......but judging from your post I'd wager you bring a lot of trouble upon yourself.
I'd suggest simply growing up and act like a decent human being (ie an adult). Its odd, I don't ever have interactions with Police when I'm not working......isn't that hard either.
If you have constant encounters with L.E., there is a reason. If you find you're having that problem, maybe you should sit down and think "why do I constantly find myself dealing with the Police?"
BTW, put up with what? LEO's spend 99% of their time dealing with 1% of the population. We all know this.
...and if the guy is still advancing on you as in the video, then what?
Thanks
Well, I can tell you that shooting an advancing suspect in my neck of the woods, Charlotte North Carolina, earns you a voluntary manslaughter charge.
The problem is that nobody can tell that the BG is armed until it is too late. Perhaps a tazer is a good initial response for an advancing suspect who conceals his hands?
Alaskapopo
10-05-13, 12:17
The late Doc Thompson as well as Marine Corps drill instructors seem to get the job done quite well without actually using profanity.
There is a time and a place for profanity. Sometimes you have to use common language that slugs understand.
Pat
Well, I can tell you that shooting an advancing suspect in my neck of the woods, Charlotte North Carolina, earns you a voluntary manslaughter charge.
The problem is that nobody can tell that the BG is armed until it is too late. Perhaps a tazer is a good initial response for an advancing suspect who conceals his hands?
Sometimes there is no good response, just some responses are better than others.
I would not want to have a tazer in my hand, when the motorist presented the pistol.
It's a sticky wicket.
theblackknight
10-05-13, 14:21
The late Doc Thompson as well as Marine Corps drill instructors seem to get the job done quite well without actually using profanity.
WTF does training recruits have to do with convincing a criminal this isnt the day to take a dirt nap? Completely different application. FAIL
Nightvisionary
10-05-13, 14:38
WTF does training recruits have to do with convincing a criminal this isnt the day to take a dirt nap? Completely different application. FAIL
Do you even know who Doc. Thompson is? So you think dropping the F-bomb is going to make a determined criminal with a gun get all shaky in the knees and beg for mercy? I don't think so. If anything it may escalate the situation. The bad guy is either going to comply or he isn't. If he isn't that's what the UOF continuum is for. Leave the F-bombs for the sloppy podunk guys with no professional bearing.
Why are USMC D.I.'s relevant? Because those guys are masters at communication. They gain instant compliance with the absolute minimum amount of communication.
theblackknight
10-05-13, 16:16
Do you even know who Doc. Thompson is? So you think dropping the F-bomb is going to make a determined criminal with a gun get all shaky in the knees and beg for mercy? I don't think so. If anything it may escalate the situation. The bad guy is either going to comply or he isn't. If he isn't that's what the UOF continuum is for. Leave the F-bombs for the sloppy podunk guys with no professional bearing.
Why are USMC D.I.'s relevant? Because those guys are masters at communication. They gain instant compliance with the absolute minimum amount of communication.
I've had too many veteran officers tell me that "you have to speak a criminal's language, some of them don't respond to anything else" and I'm pretty sure their combined professional experiance out wieghts yours or Doc's actual time on the streets brah.
So you think dropping the F-bomb is going to make a determined criminal with a gun get all shaky in the knees and beg for mercy? Nice strawman.
Your demeanor helps to gain compliance when dealing with an uncooperative subject, but dealing with raw recruits is a bit different than dealing with an uncooperative civilian. I have gained compliance both with and without profanity, but in this day and age everyone videotapes everything they see.
Since they put video cameras in our cars, I dialed the profanity way back. Even though you are justified in your use of force, someone in the jury box may take exception to your language during a trial and it may hurt your position.
I am waiting for the Verbal Judo fans to chime in.
Alaskapopo
10-05-13, 16:56
Do you even know who Doc. Thompson is? So you think dropping the F-bomb is going to make a determined criminal with a gun get all shaky in the knees and beg for mercy? I don't think so. If anything it may escalate the situation. The bad guy is either going to comply or he isn't. If he isn't that's what the UOF continuum is for. Leave the F-bombs for the sloppy podunk guys with no professional bearing.
Why are USMC D.I.'s relevant? Because those guys are masters at communication. They gain instant compliance with the absolute minimum amount of communication.
Well from actual experience I have had it work several times over the years. Does not always work but them again some people can't be talked out of anything. Last time I used it was about 4 years ago when a suspect was hiding under a building and I told him to show me his hands twice with no response other than a blank stare. The third time with a little more voice inflection and I told him to show me his ****ing hands and you know what he did. Also dealing with a recruit that is being paid to listen to you and do what you say is 100% different world than dealing with a shitbird who is sizing you up and trying to decide if he can kill you or not. I use profanity very sparingly but when I do its justified and I have never had the brass take me to task on it. The trick is knowing how to talk to people and when its appropriot.
Pat
theblackknight
10-05-13, 17:02
Some people just get mentally stuck in boot camp. . . . forever
platoonDaddy
10-05-13, 17:49
Maybe I missed it,but I have this question: did the officer empty his magazine?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-05-13, 17:56
Do you even know who Doc. Thompson is? So you think dropping the F-bomb is going to make a determined criminal with a gun get all shaky in the knees and beg for mercy? I don't think so. If anything it may escalate the situation. The bad guy is either going to comply or he isn't. If he isn't that's what the UOF continuum is for. Leave the F-bombs for the sloppy podunk guys with no professional bearing.
Why are USMC D.I.'s relevant? Because those guys are masters at communication. They gain instant compliance with the absolute minimum amount of communication.
Do you have any experience in what you are talking about? IPC and verbal judo be damned, when their level of aggression gets to the point that serious bodily injury is imminent, you do what you need to do to solve the situation.
As an aside, where did you go to to USMC Boot Camp and when? Ive never heard of a DI that doesnt scream expletives.
Edited to be nice...
theblackknight
10-05-13, 18:19
Are you ****ing kidding me?
You need to tone that talk down po-dunk.
You've been warned.
Intense video! I can only imagine the day to day stresses and split-second decision making involved in staying alive and worrying about being prosecuted for a bad shooting. Thanks for doing this dangerous and a lot of times thankless job you guys do everyday.
NeoNeanderthal
10-05-13, 18:38
Im not sure why this officer is getting any sort of crap. He started smoking the dude before the bad guys gun was even out. He either had a really good draw or already had the gun out before the bad guy made a move
So you're saying that an LEO who can articulate why he did what he did and truly felt based upon body language and experience would have been charged had he shot this guy prior to him producing the weapon?
Just curious because it was pretty obvious what was going to happen as the warning signs were there.
Well, I can tell you that shooting an advancing suspect in my neck of the woods, Charlotte North Carolina, earns you a voluntary manslaughter charge.
The problem is that nobody can tell that the BG is armed until it is too late. Perhaps a tazer is a good initial response for an advancing suspect who conceals his hands?
Generally in an officer involved shooting there is little to no paperwork for the officer that was involved. That is for the officers that investigate the shooting.
Pat
you still have to prepare a statement for the investigators. you still probably have to prepare a statement for your supervisor at least. if you're in a federal agency, that paperwork will make its way to a lot of people, which then necessitates a lot more paperwork. you still have to do all the lawyer stuff. you still have to get all the ducks in a row for health and liability insurance. this is not even including the hounding you will get from the media because that part is not paperwork.
are you seriously trying to convince anyone here that you don't have paperwork in an officer related shooting? i'm not saying you're not dragging out your time typing one letter per minute. i'm not saying you're drowning in paperwork. what i'm saying is every keystroke of that stuff is going to suck majorly. how many people sit there after the fact, filling this kind of shit out, wondering what life would be like if they just hadn't...
So you're saying that an LEO who can articulate why he did what he did and truly felt based upon body language and experience would have been charged had he shot this guy prior to him producing the weapon?
Just curious because it was pretty obvious what was going to happen as the warning signs were there.
the point about someone making a civil rights point by pulling out a wallet or who knows, maybe a shiny cellphone, was brought up earlier in the conversation.
the thing is... it should be the case that if someone so tests an officer's response, then death is on the table. you cannot create impossible situations for someone who has to contend with and follow a strict set of reactionary principles in order to stay alive and serve another day.
putting a case on such a person when the circumstances were as they were shown in the video. that'd be a tragedy. tragedies happen daily.
Alaskapopo
10-05-13, 20:08
you still have to prepare a statement for the investigators. you still probably have to prepare a statement for your supervisor at least. if you're in a federal agency, that paperwork will make its way to a lot of people, which then necessitates a lot more paperwork. you still have to do all the lawyer stuff. you still have to get all the ducks in a row for health and liability insurance. this is not even including the hounding you will get from the media because that part is not paperwork.
are you seriously trying to convince anyone here that you don't have paperwork in an officer related shooting? i'm not saying you're not dragging out your time typing one letter per minute. i'm not saying you're drowning in paperwork. what i'm saying is every keystroke of that stuff is going to suck majorly. how many people sit there after the fact, filling this kind of shit out, wondering what life would be like if they just hadn't...
Up here you are interviewed and its recorded you don't write down statements. I was not aware any one still used written statements. Up here you get three days of admin leave after the shooting as well. Some departments make you see a shrink before going back to work but that's about it.
Pat
Moose-Knuckle
10-05-13, 20:10
So you're saying that an LEO who can articulate why he did what he did and truly felt based upon body language and experience would have been charged had he shot this guy prior to him producing the weapon?
Just curious because it was pretty obvious what was going to happen as the warning signs were there.
I think what the good doc is getting at is the story that broke last month in his neck of the woods where an officer did just that and was charged with felony voluntary manslaughter.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1749320
I am not LE and I have a question.
This guy obviously had evil intent, otherwise he wouldn't have left the vehicle and would have complied with at least one of the commands he was given.
Suppose he had returned to the vehicle when ordered? I'd venture this might have turned out worse for the trooper if he'd have approached the vehicle leaving an opportunity to be shot at close range from the vehicle?
I'm thinking the officer was extremely lucky this incident went down the way it did or it could have ended worse for him.
I would appreciate someone with LE experience taking a shot at this one.
Glad the trooper survived his injury and the dirt bag is gone.
Alaskapopo
10-05-13, 22:54
I am not LE and I have a question.
This guy obviously had evil intent, otherwise he wouldn't have left the vehicle and would have complied with at least one of the commands he was given.
Suppose he had returned to the vehicle when ordered? I'd venture this might have turned out worse for the trooper if he'd have approached the vehicle leaving an opportunity to be shot at close range from the vehicle?
I'm thinking the officer was extremely lucky this incident went down the way it did or it could have ended worse for him.
I would appreciate someone with LE experience taking a shot at this one.
Glad the trooper survived his injury and the dirt bag is gone.
We have the tactical advantage if they are in their vehicle. Its harder for them to shoot us over their shoulder vs us shooting them through the window door area. Its pretty common training to tell them to get back in the vehicle in this type of situation.
Pat
ClearedHot
10-05-13, 23:18
you still have to prepare a statement for the investigators. you still probably have to prepare a statement for your supervisor at least. if you're in a federal agency, that paperwork will make its way to a lot of people, which then necessitates a lot more paperwork. you still have to do all the lawyer stuff. you still have to get all the ducks in a row for health and liability insurance. this is not even including the hounding you will get from the media because that part is not paperwork.
are you seriously trying to convince anyone here that you don't have paperwork in an officer related shooting? i'm not saying you're not dragging out your time typing one letter per minute. i'm not saying you're drowning in paperwork. what i'm saying is every keystroke of that stuff is going to suck majorly. how many people sit there after the fact, filling this kind of shit out, wondering what life would be like if they just hadn't...
Do you work in LE or did you just stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?
SeriousStudent
10-05-13, 23:26
I think a lot of people just need to step away from the keyboard and chill out, if they want this thread to stay open.
The point is the bad guy is dead, the good guy is alive, and the kids in the back seat did not catch a round.
If you have a useful and constructive comment to add, do so. If not, you would be wise to steer clear.
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