View Full Version : What would you choose...
a lower tier AR or WWII m1 carbine? After reading on M4carbine.net for some time I know the feelings towards lower tier ARs. But, if you had to choose between the two, or maybe you were advising someone else who had this decision before them, or if you had to actually use one for defense, which would you choose? Also, for you instructors, has anyone ever showed up at your course with an m1 carbine?
a lower tier AR or WWII m1 carbine? After reading on M4carbine.net for some time I know the feelings towards lower tier ARs. But, if you had to choose between the two, or maybe you were advising someone else who had this decision before them, or if you had to actually use one for defense, which would you choose? Also, for you instructors, has anyone ever showed up at your course with an m1 carbine?
Who made the M1? What kind of shape is it in?
I think they are a cool gun and if you do not own one, I would buy it.
C4
CrazyFingers
10-09-13, 08:48
a lower tier AR or WWII m1 carbine? After reading on M4carbine.net for some time I know the feelings towards lower tier ARs. But, if you had to choose between the two, or maybe you were advising someone else who had this decision before them, or if you had to actually use one for defense, which would you choose? Also, for you instructors, has anyone ever showed up at your course with an m1 carbine?
What a bizarre question.
Why are these the only two choices? Where does a WWII M1 carbine even come into play?
I suppose if a WWII vintage M1 carbine, and an Olympic AR-15 were laying on the floor in front of me, it was dark, and I was likely to be eaten by a Grue, well...I guess I'd take the Olympic, on the off-chance it worked, since in theory it should be able to fire a more modern cartridge and whatnot.
But, really, what's the point of this question?
Why can't I choose a Civil War-era cavalry saber, or a cigarette loaded with ricin?
HackerF15E
10-09-13, 09:12
Personally, I'd take the USGI M1 Carbine in a heartbeat.
By a longshot, it is for me the most fun to shoot of any firearm of any caliber.
However, because of the relative "obscurity" of .30C ammo these days, it would not be my first choice in a SHTF situation.
Personally, I'd take the USGI M1 Carbine in a heartbeat.
Same here
More so because I have plenty of ARs and also for its historical value.
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Same here
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This. But as asked previously why limit the options?
Who made the M1? What kind of shape is it in?
I think they are a cool gun and if you do not own one, I would buy it.
C4
Should have stated GI model in good working condition.
If I didn't have any long guns and those were my only two choices, I would take the lower tier AR. The availability/cost of ammo, parts and accessories would make the the AR a better choice in my humble opinion.
This. But as asked previously why limit the options?
Easy to obtain both the AR and M1 Carbine. Let's compare more:
M1 carbine: Gas operated/rotating bolt, Weight: about 5.5 lbs, OAL: about 36in, Barrel: about 18 in, Mag capacity: 30rnd. Energy at 100 yd 110 gr: about 1308J
AR (civy): Gas operated/rotating bolt, Weight: about 6.5 lbs, OAL: 36in. (stock gives more choices), Barrel: about 16 in (more or less) Mag capacity: 30rnd. Energy at 100 yd 62 gr: about 1694J
Both are nice handling carbines.
I would not trade my Winchester M1 carbine for a lower tier AR. The value of M1 carbines has gone up steadily in the last few years.
SurplusShooter
10-09-13, 11:11
if you had to actually use one for defense, which would you choose
I own a few of each and tried to use them In local 3-Gun competitions , just for fun here's my opinion:
AR: 30 round mags (typical), last shot hold-open and faster reloads, easier to operate safety lever. Easy to mount optics and other accessories (a light).
M1 Carbine: 30 round mag (typical), larger bullet diameter, but Long range performance is worse. Safety lever kinda weird on either type: push-button safety confused with mag-release (Been there, done that). The lever style safety is hard to use one-handed. No last-shot hold open, (some aftermarket magazines will catch the bolt on follower when empty), so for mag-changes have to reach-over to pull the op-rod after reloading. No adjustable stock, no easy way to mount optics/light Etc.
Trying to run both in a local 3 gun match, I prefer my AR-15.
If you don't reload, the 30-Carbine ammo is a deal-breaker IMO, it's well on its way to obscurity.
Caveat: I'm talking about "what would I choose for a firefight", not collectors value or historical importance. This post is for entertainment purposes only, I'm not an "operator".
SurplusShooter
10-09-13, 11:19
I would not trade my Winchester M1 carbine for a lower tier AR. The value of M1 carbines has gone up steadily in the last few years.
Value questions are a bit OT from the OP, but since everyone keeps bringing it up: numerically the $ price rises but compared to inflation and other similar-risk investments it's not a slam-dunk. There have been other threads on this issue and when you add these factors it's not a money-maker.
Reference:
http://forums.thecmp.org/showpost.php?p=907315&postcount=52
http://forums.thecmp.org/showpost.php?p=907531&postcount=56
I Enjoy the hobby, but it's not a good retirement plan.
As long as it is a real military manufacture M1 carbine and not one of those cheaply made postwar civilian market guns, id take that. They are very cool and in my experiences are generally accurate enough to be fun shooters to at least 100 yds. Apart from ammunition not being as prevalent as it once was I would not feel terribly disadvantaged in a bad situation if all I had was an M1 carbine.
I had a nice one once and shot the hell out of it. Few pieces of history are this fun and its great for women children and new shooters. I sold mine to fund other gun projects, its sorely missed and needs to be replaced.
Depending on the condition & manufacturer of the M1, I'd be going with the M1.
I don't have one, and have always had a slight interest, and I already have two top tier AR's anyway, so why not in that case!?!
SurplusShooter
10-09-13, 11:30
Avoid the Commercial M1 Carbines made with commercial receivers/parts. They are junk. Especially a red-flag is anything with the commercially redesigned Op-Rod with open "slot" that the bold lug rides in (looks like stamped steel). Run away if you see this!
crusader377
10-09-13, 11:35
a lower tier AR or WWII m1 carbine? After reading on M4carbine.net for some time I know the feelings towards lower tier ARs. But, if you had to choose between the two, or maybe you were advising someone else who had this decision before them, or if you had to actually use one for defense, which would you choose? Also, for you instructors, has anyone ever showed up at your course with an m1 carbine?
What is your definition of lower tier? Is this a price point question or quality point questions? For example $800-$900 can now days buy you a lot of AR for the money and at this price point, a Palmetto State Armory, Spikes Tactical, or Smith and Wesson M&P 15 for a fighting weapon over any M1 carbine. At a lower price point, I would still take a S&W M&P 15 sport at $600 over a comparably priced M1 carbine.
That said, I would want a USGI M1 Carbine over a lower grade AR like Olympic arms, Hesse/Vulcan, etc....
SurplusShooter
10-09-13, 11:41
What is your definition of lower tier? ....At a lower price point, I would still take a S&W M&P 15 sport at $600 over a comparably priced M1 carbine.
^ this.
At the ~$650 price point for an M1 Carbine you are getting a well-worn "shooter" grade USGI carbine, below that price you get Into the post-war and Commercial carbines. I also have a M&P 15 Sport, among others, and it runs better (less jams and easier to operate) than my M1 Carbines (USGI).
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Opinions and prices as-of 2013. subject to change due to market conditions, geographic area, politics, and phase of the moon.
RogerinTPA
10-09-13, 11:47
I'd get the M-1, provided it's from a quality manufacturer but...if you are looking for a carbine for a defensive nature and it's not an immediate need, I'd continue to save until I could obtain a more quality M4 type platform.
ColtSeavers
10-09-13, 13:04
Lower tier AR.
M1...something to keep and hand down for generations.. low tier AR, something to sell for a quality AR
WickedWillis
10-09-13, 13:59
Why can't I choose a Civil War-era cavalry saber, or a cigarette loaded with ricin?
I see what you did there..
M1.
Then get an AR when finances, opportunity or whatever comes your way...
If it were a value question, the M1 is much more collectible.
If it were a fighting question, I'd cheat and bring a 6920.
m1 carbine has this cool vintage factor to it but that isn't what you are asking. i would never buy another low tier ar so i would deffinately take the m1 carbine. but if you decided to go ar i would take that money and get a top tier ar upper and as you saved money you could buy a lower or build one when you get some extra money here and there.
SurplusShooter
10-09-13, 21:07
Depends on what you mean by "low tier" and how much heavy use you intend to put it thru. I think this is a "false dilemma", and here's why:
You Could pickup an entry-level S&W M&P-15 rifle for about the same price as a "shooter" USGI M1 Carbine, and _if_ you are that price limited then you probably also are not also going to buy 5K rounds of ammo and attend a bunch of Carbine classes. Searching around on these forums reveals that the S&W is at-least halfway decent (subject to much value-judgement) (M&P-15-Sport-Review
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=83136) so It sounds like that is one good route to go, no reason to have the "false dilemma" of a "low-tier AR".
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And now that I've stepped on that landmine... The Brand bashing and "why buy a Honda when you can save up your money and buy a Lamborghini" posts should follow soon. My apologies in advance.
Depends on what you mean by "low tier" and how much heavy use you intend to put it thru. I think this is a "false dilemma", and here's why:
You Could pickup an entry-level S&W M&P-15 rifle for about the same price as a "shooter" USGI M1 Carbine, and _if_ you are that price limited then you probably also are not also going to buy 5K rounds of ammo and attend a bunch of Carbine classes. Searching around on these forums reveals that the S&W is at-least halfway decent (subject to much value-judgement) (M&P-15-Sport-Review
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=83136) so It sounds like that is one good route to go, no reason to have the "false dilemma" of a "low-tier AR".
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And now that I've stepped on that landmine... The Brand bashing and "why buy a Honda when you can save up your money and buy a Lamborghini" posts should follow soon. My apologies in advance.
By your name, SurplusShooter, I'm assuming you like surplus arms. I just checked gunbroker. I can't believe the prices of m1 carbines. I've owned several over the years-rockola, winchester, inland, IBM, and another brand or two I can't recall. I once purchased one for $150 that came with 500 rnds of ammo. I shot up the ammo and then sold the rifle for $250. I miss those days! No landmines-you're safe.
What a bizarre question.
Why are these the only two choices? Where does a WWII M1 carbine even come into play?
I suppose if a WWII vintage M1 carbine, and an Olympic AR-15 were laying on the floor in front of me, it was dark, and I was likely to be eaten by a Grue, well...I guess I'd take the Olympic, on the off-chance it worked, since in theory it should be able to fire a more modern cartridge and whatnot.
But, really, what's the point of this question?
Why can't I choose a Civil War-era cavalry saber, or a cigarette loaded with ricin?
You can always choose Civil War sabers. Always.
SurplusShooter
10-09-13, 22:38
I just checked gunbroker. I can't believe the prices of m1 carbines. I've owned several over the years-
Yeah, things were bad enough before but this latest swirl about the Executive Orders (blocking imports and all-that) has really pushed M1 Garands and M1 Carbines over-the-edge. Now is the absolute wrong time to buy a Carbine in Gunbroker. Heck, back in late '12 I paid around $1K for an IBM Carbine, and at the time I thought I overpaid like a sucker.... Looking at the crazy prices now on GunBroker puts it in perspective maybe I did okay ;)
The 30-carbine ammo is a whole 'nother aspect to this: I bought some just at the last Month that CMP still sold it, now they are out. you can't get 30-Carbine except a few places online and it's more expensive. That situation is not going to get much better. Have you seen the prices on 6.5 Carcano ammo and other similarly obscure cartridges? Take a good long look because 30-Cabine will be like that eventually IMO.... reload for it or be forced to hang-it-up.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2853/10252897444_c51a76f8c2_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/41385771@N03/10252897444/)
Carbines (http://www.flickr.com/photos/41385771@N03/10252897444/) by zweitakt250 (http://www.flickr.com/people/41385771@N03/), on Flickr
I would not trade my Winchester M1 carbine for a lower tier AR. The value of M1 carbines has gone up steadily in the last few years.
I'm in this boat.......
HackerF15E
10-13-13, 20:27
reload for it or be forced to hang-it-up.
The good news is that it is a very easily reloadable cartridge. I currently reload it for about $0.18/round with FMJ and W296 or H110 powder, and I've had some good luck in the past loading cast lead for substantially cheaper than that. I'm not even anywhere close to a bulk purchaser of components, and obviously you could shave several cents off that price if you bought more.
For defensive and training purposes, the AR is much better choice, so long as the "lower tier" AR is something like an S&W or a PSA with the right boxes checked off. Easier to mount optics, better sling choices and easier to get replacement parts. The 5.56 AR has better terminal performance, better selection of ammunition and better availability. It's ergonomics make the AR easier to handle and solve problems under pressure.
If it's a matter of which one to get first, keep in mind M1 carbines aren't made anymore and sources have largely dried up
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-13-13, 21:01
Doesnt Eric Utrecht use a RMR'd M1 Carbine in courses now?
Anyways, if I had to choose and had no other option then it would be the AR15. The chances of catastrophic failure are lower than some would believe, I am familiar with the manual of arms, and 5.56 is IMO a much better defensive round than the .30.
DMViergever
10-14-13, 08:14
I would buy a M1 carbine while you still can...they are getting hard to find andprices are jumping. Then buy a stripped lower and bcg as these were the only hard parts I had trouble finding last scare.
There are still some decent priced M1s out there. Just keep your eyes very open and do a little research before buying. I got that desperate feeling and just picked one up. Paid 450 and got some mags and ammo...turned out I did well and got a 1943 manufacture with matching parts except the stock.
Army Chief
10-14-13, 08:44
Not sure I even get the opening premise.
Why opt for a sub-standard AR as opposed to anything? The M1 Carbine is an interesting and worthy acquisition in it's own right (assuming the right gun), but it doesn't strike me as terribly relevant to the discussion because it never really makes sense to spend good money on a flaky AR.
Seems to me the only decision to be made here is whether the M1 Carbine is itself one of the more competent or desirable versions.
AC
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2853/10252897444_c51a76f8c2_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/41385771@N03/10252897444/)
Carbines (http://www.flickr.com/photos/41385771@N03/10252897444/) by zweitakt250 (http://www.flickr.com/people/41385771@N03/), on Flickr
Wow, nice picture and great shooting range! Love the rifles.
Not sure I even get the opening premise.
Why opt for a sub-standard AR as opposed to anything? The M1 Carbine is an interesting and worthy acquisition in it's own right (assuming the right gun), but it doesn't strike me as terribly relevant to the discussion because it never really makes sense to spend good money on a flaky AR.
Seems to me the only decision to be made here is whether the M1 Carbine is itself one of the more competent or desirable versions.
AC
The premse was based on watching someone buy a sportical when there was a nice GI carbine in the rack for about the same price. Not knocking his purchase. I too might choose the DPMS if looking for a modern rifle. If I were having to pick for home defense I might pick the M1.
I really would just be saving funds for an acceptable M4...
Heck, I haven't seen a decent M1 for less than the price of a 6920 in while now. If you're spending 6920 money on a rifle, the "lowest quality" I would accept would be the Colt. Unless you're coming up against a ban where you live, it makes no sense to buy a substandard rifle.
That said, it sounds like the M1 is being picked up at a better price than market value. If it's around the price of an M&P15 I would be looking at the S&W instead. Their CS has been good, and while it's frustrating to deal with issues, if you get one of the (admittedly few) that happens to be a problem child you do know they'll take care of you.
The premse was based on watching someone buy a sportical when there was a nice GI carbine in the rack for about the same price. Not knocking his purchase. I too might choose the DPMS if looking for a modern rifle. If I were having to pick for home defense I might pick the M1.
Or he could of just left and purchased a quality AR elsewhere.
Hard to put a value on the M1 without knowing the manuf. and condition.
brickboy240
10-14-13, 11:50
The problem now is FINDING 30 Carbine ammo in any sort of quantity.
You can buy bulk 223 now, all day long. Try finding more than 1-2 boxes (if you are lucky) of 30 Carbine ANYWHERE right now.
(if you do find it....be prepared to pay around 30 bucks a box, too)
-brickboy240
The ww2 rifle of course. Lower tier AR platforms are EVERYWHERE, but, how often do you see a garand? Assuming the garand is the carbine you're talking about.
The premse was based on watching someone buy a sportical when there was a nice GI carbine in the rack for about the same price. Not knocking his purchase. I too might choose the DPMS if looking for a modern rifle. If I were having to pick for home defense I might pick the M1.
Given this situation, I would either have bought the M1 carbine or waited until I found a better AR
The ww2 rifle of course. Lower tier AR platforms are EVERYWHERE, but, how often do you see a garand? Assuming the garand is the carbine you're talking about.
Tog is talking about the M1 carbine, not the M1 Garand
SurplusShooter
10-14-13, 17:45
. Lower tier AR platforms are EVERYWHERE, but, how often do you see a Garand?
I See them all over the place. Just visit the CMP store or Mail-order yourself one. There's no reason to pay the rip-off prices from resellers, when CMP sells Garands direct for the lowest price around. Don't feed the scalpers and shady resellers.
M1 Carbines are less available. You're gonna have to pay to get one.
Assuming the garand is the carbine you're talking about.
just FYI they are vastly different rifles (M1 Garand vs M1 Carbine).
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Also be aware a M1 Carbine is not always guaranteed to work and be trouble-free. And If you get a dud you are on your own. Extractor breaks? Need to Replace a barrel? Bad headspace? Gas piston fouled and needs to be removed? All require specialized tools and know-how, cannot just call customer-service for help.
The premse was based on watching someone buy a sportical when there was a nice GI carbine in the rack for about the same price. Not knocking his purchase. I too might choose the DPMS if looking for a modern rifle. If I were having to pick for home defense I might pick the M1.
I don't even own a M1 or ever handled one before, but you bet I will buy it over a DPMS everytime.
You can always improve the parts of a cheaper AR-15 as you have the money to do so. The modularity of the platform gives it a distinct advantage IMO.
m1 carbine if in good condition.
If the m1 is not in good condition, then neither.
Low tier ar15's are a dime a dozen. Why buy used low tier crap when you can get a new top tier ar15 for a little more.
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