View Full Version : Brownells M-16 Bolt Carrier Group
What is the thought on this one. It seems to have most required specs except HPT. I know it is not Colt, DD or Larue.
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/bolt-parts/bolt-carrier-parts/bolt-carriers/m16-bolt-carrier-group-sku078000175-58324-119655.aspx?sku=078-000-175&sp_rid=Mjg4ODE5NDYyODES1&sp_mid=6885027&spMailingID=6885027&spUserID=Mjg4ODE5NDYyODES1&spJobID=173649235&spReportId=MTczNjQ5MjM1S0
Dan
F-Trooper05
10-10-13, 12:25
Spend the extra $50 and don't be a beta tester...
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3653
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm
I can't answer your question but for $40 more, there is plenty of options where there is no question.
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Brownells is a great company. But when they reinvent the wheel they don't always succeed.
Just as Rainier Arms you have BCM, Centurion, and even Rainier Arm BCG at about the same price as the Brownells which I think many on here would say is a more proven BCG. Personally, have not found a reason to not spend the extra and buy BCM.
Just as Rainier Arms you have BCM, Centurion, and even Rainier Arm BCG at about the same price as the Brownells which I think many on here would say is a more proven BCG. Personally, have not found a reason to not spend the extra and buy BCM.
This is pretty solid - with options like BCM, DD, LMT out there, it's somewhat silly to me to try and save money on something that will take about $3000 worth of ammunition to determine if you made a smart decision on - just get the top end stuff, and drive on.
GUNSLINGER733
10-10-13, 12:56
repost
I am not being a Beta tester nor do I need a spare one right now. I have several. I was more wanting to know if anyone here had seen or used one.
Dan
I got the ad for Brownells BCG and wondered the same...however, I'm going to follow the advice of the guys, i.e. pay a bit more for a high quality tried and true...
I got the ad for Brownells BCG and wondered the same...however, I'm going to follow the advice of the guys, i.e. pay a bit more for a high quality tried and true...
I agree with you but how does a company get through all the bandwidth when bringing a new product to market place when there are others like BCG's?
Dan
I have never used this product, but if I were in the market for a complete bolt and carrier I would not hesitate to buy this one. I have been buying from Brownell's over 30 years and do not have any complaints. With their no questions asked return policy it is hard to go wrong.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/general/Forever_Guarantee.aspx
Brownells is a great company. But when they reinvent the wheel they don't always succeed.
IG has good advice
Someone who has a lot of ammo laying around could put Brownells guarantee to the test. I wish it were me.
I've been a customer for a long time as well. If they say "no questions asked return", that's what they mean. kwg
Grand58742
10-10-13, 21:02
I will say at $125 with the military/police discount, it's worth a shot as a test dummy since it does meet most of the specs.
I need a BCG minus the bolt for a 6.8 upper, so it's just about cheaper to get one of these and replace the bolt than try to piece together the remainder of the stuff. When it comes in, I'll try to remember to post a review
Archer1440
10-11-13, 22:23
A no brainer with my discount, will review when it shows up.
Even if you have the discount, why bother with Brownells? The Rainier Arms bcg is only $129 right now: https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3759
OK. But, in all fairness they do not state anywhere that I can see what the bolt is made from, nor do they mention the HP testing.
So based upon the descriptions of the two, the Brownells one would actually be better.
Even if you have the discount, why bother with Brownells? The Rainier Arms bcg is only $129 right now: https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3759
Mall_Ninja
10-12-13, 01:56
Depends what you are going to do with it. Few are realistic and demand the best 100% of the time, even if all they do is punch paper. If the rig is going to be used as a range gun, carbine course or 3 gun, might as well save some cash and try it out.
If its going to defend life, liberty and freedom, well then thats a simple choice...
K.L. Davis
10-12-13, 02:14
Brownells does not "make" the BCG - they buy it from someone else... I can say from experience (having sold OEM parts to Brownells) that they are pretty picky about what products they take on...
Right now, there are lots of bolts and carriers out there - the recent market demands have opened a lot of new "suppliers"... once upon a time, the vast majority of bolt carriers came from about three different shops, but in the last year a LOT of shops have jumped on the bolt and carrier band-wagon; demand drives production. More than a few shops have contacted me looking for drawings for the bolt and carrier...
So now, it can be a bit of a crap shoot... I know of a couple of production runs that turned into nightmares, but in many cases you had shops turning out very high quality parts. Naturally, there are mutts out there... but that is not always bad. I know shops that could not get 8620 and made carriers from 4130 - in many specs for other parts, the two are interchangeable; some will argue that 4130 may even be a better choice... the two are nearly identical in performance specs, 4130 may be a little tougher, 8620 case hardens better... I have 4130 carriers that seem to be working fine. Shit, other than firing out of battery or over pressure case ruptures... I have never seen a carrier fail. Seen more than a few that were out of spec though - regardless of what material they are made from and what NDE testing they went through.
The pisser is that some shops will say they used 4130, some won't say anything... the same sort of problem goes for proof testing; I know a small shop that made a bunch of bolts, all of them were tested with a HPT round, but they would not mark them HPT... cause they were not tested exactly in accordance with MIL-C-46936B (ANSI inspector, lot controlled and batch tested proof rounds, etc) and they did not want to mislead customers. They still sold all of them.
At the end of the day... you have to trust the COC that the manufacturer supplies - a good relation with a shop goes a LONG way with these sort of things. I am having some parts produced now and when I bought the steel I had the option of getting lot controlled and certified steel, or not; the difference added a couple of bucks to the final part... is it worth it? To me it is, if for no reason other than I know I am buying and using U.S. made steel!
The AR-tactical-black-rifle world is VERY competitive, the companies that make it do so by sourcing good parts and standing behind those parts... reputation is really what makes a good company. Hell, I get offers every week to buy some part from a new source I have never heard from, sometimes I will ask "can you provide material certs and part COC?" - this often ends in a dial tone, or my favorite answer "sure, what do you need them to say?" - but every now and then I get an email with professional COCs, material source certs, and the manufacturer's ISO and ANSI certification.
Anyway... kudos to resellers that list the actual steel and production methods. Truth is, companies like Rainier Arms and Brownells can NOT afford to put out junk parts... bottom line seems to be: unless you are buying parts for mission critical, life on the line use... and you see something from a reputable source that you need, at a price you can afford, I would not hesitate to give it a try. If you really need a "zero defect" mission critical part, then deal with a source that can prove the parts have passed muster.
Here is another tip... if you are not really involved in a operation where parts failure equals loss of life, yet you still toss and turn unable to sleep at night cause you are not sure your bolt was high pressure tested... lighten up a little, stress will kill you before Nazi Frogmen ever will ;)
ETA: Mall Ninja posted while I was typing... my long and loquacious diatribe; yet he managed to say what I am trying to say in far fewer words.
Mall_Ninja
10-12-13, 02:42
lighten up a little, stress will kill you before Nazi ZOMBIE Frogmen ever will ;)
Fixed...
ETA: Mall Ninja posted while I was typing... my long and loquacious diatribe; yet he managed to say what I am trying to say in far fewer words.
Sorry man, your post had way more useful info than I had to contribute... :D
Archer1440
10-12-13, 10:08
ETA: Mall Ninja posted while I was typing... my long and loquacious diatribe; yet he managed to say what I am trying to say in far fewer words.
True, but you diatribe had the virtue of being INTERESTING which makes up for a lack of brevity.
Grand58742
10-15-13, 11:48
Okay, mine came in today after ordering late Friday night. Gotta hand it to Brownells shipping, they are always fast.
Overall finish was good along with what appears to be a forged gas key (no small circle of MIM that is obvious on others) with good chrome lining on the inside. Good park covering on everything that needs it and minus the packing oil many put on.
http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/yy179/Grand58742/IMG_00381024x768_zps9d715d16.jpg (http://s789.photobucket.com/user/Grand58742/media/IMG_00381024x768_zps9d715d16.jpg.html)
Gas key staking...didn't look great and should be a bit deeper. The front one looks to be marginal and I can see the impression on the screw. The rear one in my opinion could have been a little deeper for my liking but appears to be close enough until I can get a staking tool.
http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/yy179/Grand58742/IMG_00391024x768_zps952756c7.jpg (http://s789.photobucket.com/user/Grand58742/media/IMG_00391024x768_zps952756c7.jpg.html)
Surprisingly enough, the bolt is not only MPI, but also HPT. The O ring on the extractor spring I'm uncertain of since I have only seen the brown one one other time. Not sure if that's a new thing as I'm used to seeing the black ones from BCM and DD, so someone can correct me if it's something relatively new out there.
http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/yy179/Grand58742/IMG_00401024x768_zps3ee2101d.jpg (http://s789.photobucket.com/user/Grand58742/media/IMG_00401024x768_zps3ee2101d.jpg.html)
Minus the staking job, it appears to be a pretty good deal for $125 with the mil/LEO discount or at $150 for regular buyers. It dropped right into my BCM without any problems, but I haven't done a headspace check yet. However, I don't foresee problems with it. The bolt will end up going into my spares bin while the remainder of the group will be used in a 6.8 upper and probably won't see a lot of range time.
Overall, it appears to be a viable alternative if they can get the staking a little deeper. I know a lot of people will say "spend the extra money on a BCM!" but when push comes to shove and we end up in another parts shortage like we just had, it helps to have good alternatives that have the proper material specs. And so far the Brownells fits that bill.
Archer1440
10-15-13, 12:04
Mine has arrived but I am not in the office today to pick it up. That staking job is not good, a little disappointing to see that. Hope mine is a bit better.
Mall_Ninja
10-15-13, 15:36
Pics can be deceiving but the staking doesnt look complete. Easy fix would be to auto-punch the bolts if you dont have a staking tool.
You could verify contact by using a very fine wire as a "feeler gauge"...
Grand58742
10-15-13, 17:23
Pics can be deceiving but the staking doesnt look complete. Easy fix would be to auto-punch the bolts if you dont have a staking tool.
You could verify contact by using a very fine wire as a "feeler gauge"...
It's close with one being closer than the other, but not close enough for my tastes so I'm going to hit it again.
Just gives me an excuse to buy a staking tool that I should have had to begin with
"I can see the impression on the screw" Forgive me for being a dumb-ass but... How do you make an impression on a grade 8 cap screw?? GH
"I can see the impression on the screw" Forgive me for being a dumb-ass but... How do you make an impression on a grade 8 cap screw?? GH
I'm guessing he means he can see the staking contact the screw.
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Again forgive me for being a dumb ass but... Does the MPI/HPT etching somehow prove that it was actually done?? GH
Grand58742
10-15-13, 18:31
Again forgive me for being a dumb ass but... Does the MPI/HPT etching somehow prove that it was actually done?? GH
Is there a point you are trying to make? How do I know it's actually Carpenter 158? How do I know the carrier steel isn't 4140?
How do you know Bravo Company bolts are MPI and HPT with the exception of the fact they state so and mark same accordingly? I have no plans on calling a reputable company like Brownells a liar when it comes to the details on their products. They tend to stand by their work and their products just like Bravo Company and a lot of good manufacturers do when many will not or hide the details of their work like K.L. Davis stated before.
And yes, I can see where the contact was made on the screws. Pictures are deceiving.
The overall BCG looks ok, but I've seen PSA and Spikes Tactical BCG's with better staking at around the same price point. Last weekend at the gunshow here I checked out a Spikes BCG with a properly staked key for $139.
Sort of a segway, bur I'll say it anyhow. A few weeks ago PSA had the Vortex strikefire + PSA BCG for $199..
Archer1440
10-17-13, 12:09
Had to opportunity to check out the Brownell's M16 BCG that landed on my desk this week.
BCG arrived in a plain bubble-wrap plastic envelope.
Carrier is unmarked in any way and does not show evidence of having been cycled in any way. Dry as a bone, no lube on any external surface. Key has an adequate staking job, it is not a problem.
Screws appear to be Grade 8 based on the appearance of the broaching job and my experience. Gas key does show a possible MIM injection point on the rear but I am not concerned about it. The key shows smooth hard chrome inside, and correct perpendicularity to the carrier.
The carrier is also hard chromed inside and shows a good, smooth and even Parkerizing job. There are a few bin travel marks but the finish is intact.
Firing pin is a standard hard chromed part, and cotter pin meets specs. Firing pin had a very light layer of lube. There was none on the cotter pin.
Bolt appears identical to the one shown in photos above. It does not show any wear or evidence of having been cycled or proof tested, so perhaps these steps were carried out before the Parkerizing was applied.
The cam pin is Parkerized, and is the only lubricated item on the BCG.
Bolt is laser etched with the HPT/MPT reference as shown in previous photos.
Extractor features a brown O-ring, black spring insert, and black spring.
Gas rings appear to be good quality and there is a correct fit to the carrier even when completely dry of lube- in fact a few ounces of force is needed to fit the bolt to the carrier, indicating excellent tolerances.
No issues with fit or headspace in my new LE6920 SOCOM or in my LE6920 with a thousand rounds down the pipe. No issues in a RRA Entry Tactical that has around 5K down the pipe.
This is going into the parts kit as a backup.
Questions/comments cheerfully entertained.
Mall_Ninja
10-18-13, 03:50
Bolt appears identical to the one shown in photos above. It does not show any wear or evidence of having been cycled or proof tested, so perhaps these steps were carried out before the Parkerizing was applied.
Thats questionable...
Not saying it isnt possible, but sounds fishy... :confused:
Archer1440
10-18-13, 21:56
What exactly is fishy? The fact there are no wear marks, brass marks, or lube on the bolt exterior? Perhaps their HPT involves a steel case round or other methodology. Perhaps they cleaned the heck out of it. Perhaps my assessment is wrong, because I simply cannot see the signs.
Unless proven otherwise I will take Brownell's word on it.
I will note that the Colt's bolt I purchased a few months ago from Brownell's also didn't show signs of any wear, or signs of having been cycled. It was lubed with the usual Colt's heavy shipping lube, and had the usual vibratory etched mark for MPI and white paint dot in the usual location.
K.L. Davis
10-19-13, 00:14
I know of at least one place that uses a "test cell" for HPT bolt testing... the bolt is tested alone, it is not in a rifle or even a bolt carrier. After testing the bolt is cleaned for the MPI, then cleaned again, then laser marked.
Grand58742
10-19-13, 09:02
I know of at least one place that uses a "test cell" for HPT bolt testing... the bolt is tested alone, it is not in a rifle or even a bolt carrier. After testing the bolt is cleaned for the MPI, then cleaned again, then laser marked.
Kind of off topic, but how does that work exactly? Like a barrel and chamber profile set up with some sort of automated firing pin?
number1olddog
10-19-13, 09:54
out of all the bolt carrier groups that I have bought (spikes, rainier and BCM) only the LMT's bolt face was dirty upon receiving it.
out of all the bolt carrier groups that I have bought (spikes, rainier and BCM) only the LMT's bolt face was dirty upon receiving it.
Really? All the BCM BCGs I ever purchased came with really dirty bolt faces... that is unless they've changed their recipe as of late. The last time I purchased a BCG from them was in Dec '12.
Really? All the BCM BCGs I ever purchased came with really dirty bolt faces... that is unless they've changed their recipe as of late. The last time I purchased a BCG from them was in Dec '12.
But was the soot Mil-Spec?
How long until somebody starts a thread, "My new bolt was clean, should I be worried?"
I keed... I keed... :)
How long until somebody starts a thread, "My new bolt was clean, should I be worried?"
I keed... I keed... :)
I do believe I have seen one already. Not too long ago either.
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Mall_Ninja
10-19-13, 21:31
Really? All the BCM BCGs I ever purchased came with really dirty bolt faces... that is unless they've changed their recipe as of late. The last time I purchased a BCG from them was in Dec '12.
Nope, I have 3 BCM's that are only a couple months old and all 3 have Mil spec soot... :D
Gas key is not staked properly.
Archer1440
12-02-13, 11:18
Update. Have put 1200 rounds through this BCG in a new BCM 16" SOCOM upper mounted on an RRA lower. Lubed with SLIP2000 EWL. Ammo was 50% Q3131 Win white box and the remainder M855 62 grain Federal.
There were zero malfunctions or issues. At 600 rounds the BCG was fully stripped, cleaned and detail inspected. No abnormal wear or other issues were noted. There was no evidence of any issues on the gas tube.
Overall I believe this BCG works very well.
As an aside the BCM upper is really excellent- one MOA with the 62 grain ammo and outstanding workmanship.
DreadPirateMoyer
12-02-13, 12:16
Update. Have put 1200 rounds through this BCG in a new BCM 16" SOCOM upper mounted on an RRA lower. Lubed with SLIP2000 EWL. Ammo was 50% Q3131 Win white box and the remainder M855 62 grain Federal.
There were zero malfunctions or issues. At 600 rounds the BCG was fully stripped, cleaned and detail inspected. No abnormal wear or other issues were noted. There was no evidence of any issues on the gas tube.
Overall I believe this BCG works very well.
As an aside the BCM upper is really excellent- one MOA with the 62 grain ammo and outstanding workmanship.
Good to hear your bolt is working well. Quality options are always good, I think, and I hope it continues to perform over the next 9,000 or so rounds. :)
On your accuracy comment, were you shooting 10-shot groups? M855 is not 1 MOA ammo. At best, it's around 3 MOA. 1 MOA is impossible unless you were shooting low round counts or had a one-in-a-million group.
ColtSeavers
12-02-13, 17:16
Good to hear your bolt is working well. Quality options are always good, I think, and I hope it continues to perform over the next 9,000 or so rounds. :)
Agreed! It's good to see another quality company putting out more quality products at affordable prices.
On your accuracy comment, were you shooting 10-shot groups? M855 is not 1 MOA ammo. At best, it's around 3 MOA. 1 MOA is impossible unless you were shooting low round counts or had a one-in-a-million group.
Not saying it's the norm (variables being what they are with different shooters/barrels/etc.), but it is possible, especially with PMC XTAC M855, which shoots very well for me and others.
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/mobile/article.php?id=26153
DreadPirateMoyer
12-02-13, 17:42
I'd need to know more about that methodology before accepting it, as Molon's pieces are far more in depth and show the methodology for the entire test. He never got below 1.7".
http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=519740
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/469814_.html
Granted, X-Tac wasn't in the test, but I've never seen it shoot sub-2MOA. There's some good mojo in X-Tac, or SI's methodology was off. I'd lean to the latter.
Anyway, I'll stop derailing the thread now.
Mall_Ninja
12-02-13, 23:54
My BCM SPR is a tac driver with PMC M855. I would say its close to MOA with one or two flyers per 5 round group. Meaning it would be easy MOA all day long but high probability of a flyer. Which is not half bad. Except, its one of only 2 types I have found that this picky barrel shoots… =(
You probably won't get too many people accepting that BCG until there are dozens of reports and tens of thousands of rounds...
If I need a new BCG I'll get one of these. Brownell's is a stand up company that has been around way longer that BCM, and will probably be around after BCM is gone. It's nice to see someone putting out a quality BCG that they stand behind, that is still charging reasonable (pre-panic) prices for them.
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