View Full Version : BCG for Steel Ammo
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I have a Colt M4 that I won't run steel ammo through. As I understand it the expansion attributes of steel vs brass is what typically causes the malfunctions with extraction of spent shells. If that is the case, would there be a BCG that one could just pop in to deal with steel ammo?
Considering that steel ammo is well below the cost of brass cased ammo, it seems like a logical question.
You won't, or it won't?
If the former, just get over it. Most guns will run steel ammo just fine. My 14.5" middy (which has less gas than your 16" carbine) will even run Tula.
The steel's obturation in the chamber has nothing to do with what BCG you are using. You don't need another BCG just to run steel ammo.
My experience has been that if you maintain your rifle the same as you would with brass ammo, you won't have any issues. For best results, lightly clean your carbine, clean your chamber, and lubricate heavily before shooting steel.
I have fired tens of thousands of rounds of Wolf steel case ammunition through lower tier AR carbines and rifles without any reliability issues. Your Colt should be fine.
Throw an extra extractor and firing pin in your range bag if you are worried about parts breakage.
I run steel cased ammo in my LaRue gun, BM and custom built right almost exclusively, no special BCG considerations here.
Interesting and thank you for the responses.
I won't, or at least haven't to date thus the question. I do typically clean after each shoot so I don't worry about that one but if I do pick up some steel ammo, will try to remember to lube before shooting it.
I run a lot of lube on my BCG whether I am shooting brass or steel case ammunition. Either way, the AR likes lube.
Yes. Keep it lubed and keep it clean.
I run a lot of lube on my BCG whether I am shooting brass or steel case ammunition. Either way, the AR likes lube.
Averageman
10-10-13, 18:11
The Only issues I have had and I have shot perhaps a thousand rounds through my Spikes Lower under a BCM upper had nothing to do with the BCG and everything to do with the chamber being dirty from the coating on the steel casings.
I think you'll be fine if you keep your chamber scrubbed out.
Not to mention that the locking lugs of the bolt and barrel wear into each other so changing out bolts all the time is going to cause some crazy wear on the extension's lugs.
Chuck up a chamber brush in your drill motor for problem free steel case shooting...:p
Averageman
10-10-13, 18:39
Chuck up a chamber brush in your drill motor for problem free steel case shooting...
Might be the faster solution?
Interesting and thank you for the responses.
I won't, or at least haven't to date thus the question. I do typically clean after each shoot so I don't worry about that one but if I do pick up some steel ammo, will try to remember to lube before shooting it.
The first time through I read this as (paraphrasing) "I'm going to lube steel cased ammo if ever use it". After a couple more reads, I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean, but just to be sure I'm going to say it. . .
Don't lube ammo, of any type.
In case you were referring to lubing your rifle, which I believe you were, carry on. A wet rifle is a happy rifle.
So far I've had no problem with LaRue, CMMG, BCM, Fail-Zero, Daniel Defense, KAC and Noveske.
RogerinTPA
10-11-13, 13:40
I have fired tens of thousands of rounds of Wolf steel case ammunition through lower tier AR carbines and rifles without any reliability issues. Your Colt should be fine.
Throw an extra extractor and firing pin in your range bag if you are worried about parts breakage.
Agreed.
OP: I had a 6920 with close to 20K of steel cased ammo shot through it, and yours should be fine. I've shot (spread over 5 ARs) maybe 60K of wolf, +12K of brown bear and 5K of golden tiger (both lacquered) to date, including several 3 day carbine courses and only clean at the 4 or 5K mark, but the bcg, bolt and chamber are generously lubed. You might have a cleaning rod available on standby in case of a stuck case...not that a stuck case is steel ammo specific since I've had stuck brass cases as well, but it is a good idea.
HackerF15E
10-11-13, 13:51
OP: I had a 6920 with close to 20K of steel cased ammo shot through it,
But that can't be true! The LuckyGunner test showed that steel case ammo kills an AR barrel at 6,000 rounds!
Ah, yes, the "steel ammo is horrible" myth.
If anything, your barrel may wear out a bit sooner shooting steel case ammo, but the amount of money you are going to save shooting steel case over brass will more than pay for a new barrel, or two, or three, assuming you actually shoot that much ammo to begin with.
MAC has good dope on this.
Watch the video and read the discussion under it, good stuff.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/09/tim-harmsen/the-truth-about-wolf-ammo/
RogerinTPA
10-11-13, 15:15
But that can't be true! The LuckyGunner test showed that steel case ammo kills an AR barrel at 6,000 rounds!
I know I know...and still it still shot 4 inch groups at 100 yards.:cool:
Heavy Metal
10-11-13, 15:27
Chuck up a chamber brush in your drill motor for problem free steel case shooting...
Might be the faster solution?
Putting a chamber brush on a rod section and chucking it in a Drill is as wrong as dogs and cats fuc*ing! (See, its PC now so the .mil can carry on thanks to me!) That is NOT doing the throat of your rifling any favors. That is a .mil stupid stunt I first witnessed in Basic Training. One of which I did not partake.
A patch soaked in Shooters Choice and letting it sit a couple hours will get any residue, including residue from Steel Cased ammo, you need to get out of the chamber...out of the chamber.
At MOST, I can see spinning it a few times by hand but it has been so long since I have needed to use a chamber brush it's unreal.
Patches and brushes are for wimps.
I just drink a few strong cups of coffee and then an hour later pee it all down the chamber/barrel and call it a day.
:neo:
Inkslinger
10-11-13, 15:30
Chuck up a chamber brush in your drill motor for problem free steel case shooting...
Might be the faster solution?
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/12/apuqaga6.jpg
Heavy Metal
10-11-13, 15:31
Exactly! And with the right chemicals, you don't even need that damn brush at all!
A little OT, but does no one shoot Tula?
I shot a .85 ish group out of my PredatAR with Wolf WPA steel. Probably an act of God but ill take it :p
And Wake I do, runs fine in everything I've got
The first time through I read this as (paraphrasing) "I'm going to lube steel cased ammo if ever use it". After a couple more reads, I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean, but just to be sure I'm going to say it. . .
Don't lube ammo, of any type.
In case you were referring to lubing your rifle, which I believe you were, carry on. A wet rifle is a happy rifle.
Ahhhh, yeah, lube the rifle.
Averageman
10-12-13, 08:54
PS Magazine.
I wondered if the brush on a drill might be a little harsh.
But what chemicla would you suggest as a cleaner/solvent that would take out that gunk the steel case ammo comes coated in?
A little OT, but does no one shoot Tula?
Tula...the evil temptress. Yeah I'll admit it, but I don't shoot it a lot due to the supposed negative effects on the gun compared to brass. Brass also negatively effects my bank account though and in a much more visible sense.
Probably have put about 400 rounds of Tula intermingled with another 600 rounds of various brass through a new BCM 16" upper with no issues. I have cleaned my chamber a few times via hand twisting a chamber brush during routine cleaning maybe a half dozen rotations. Probably didn't need to buy just FYI.
I have been a bit leery of Tula as of late due to a friend having two hang fires recently. He safely kept the bore down range, but the rounds did detonate a second or two after dropping the hammer. Never have personally seen that before.
Weak ammo can cause hangfire. Lots of people shoot cases of Tula without harm, just keep a dewy rod handy to occasionally knock out a case.
Heavy Metal
10-12-13, 11:31
PS Magazine.
I wondered if the brush on a drill might be a little harsh.
But what chemicla would you suggest as a cleaner/solvent that would take out that gunk the steel case ammo comes coated in?
Shooters Choice will clean any gunk from Steel Cased ammo out of your chamber, right down to the bare steel.
Averageman
10-12-13, 11:39
Shooters Choice will clean any gunk from Steel Cased ammo out of your chamber, right down to the bare steel.
Any downside to this as far as residual stuff remaining even after a couple of swipes with a patch?
Brass is super slick. Polymer coated steel...not so much. Oil the rounds (no your gun won't blow up) and extraction and feeding will be smoother.
There is nothing wrong with steel case ammo. However, the powders used by TULA create pressure curves that don't necessarily peak at the best time to operate varying AR gas systems.
HackerF15E
10-12-13, 13:28
A little OT, but does no one shoot Tula?
Does reloading it count?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/4A1283CC-D624-4AD9-8742-A10414708BA8-10957-00000D1F03CF5428.jpg
Steel case ammo has always been GTG in my Colts, Glocks, and 1911s. Most weapons shoot it just fine and without issue. I like
to shoot steel cased stuff when I use all my contract ammo up. I like to watch people get all worked about steel case ammo"it'll scratch your barrel".
polydeuces
10-12-13, 17:47
Whatsa chamber brush?
:p
+1.....
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Does reloading it count?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/4A1283CC-D624-4AD9-8742-A10414708BA8-10957-00000D1F03CF5428.jpg
I actually considered doing this as a 1 time re-use.
Any issues involved?
HackerF15E
10-16-13, 09:07
I actually considered doing this as a 1 time re-use.
Any issues involved?
I've never had any, either with the reloading or shooting. Case prep is slightly different and I do have to watch for rust in the stuff that doesn't get shot quickly, but I rarely see any.
Of course, if you listen to popular internet wisdom, I've destroyed both my rifle and my reloading dies all ready.
Strangely, both continue to do their designed jobs quite well.
I've never had any, either with the reloading or shooting. Case prep is slightly different and I do have to watch for rust in the stuff that doesn't get shot quickly, but I rarely see any.
Of course, if you listen to popular internet wisdom, I've destroyed both my rifle and my reloading dies all ready.
Strangely, both continue to do their designed jobs quite well.
Thanks.
I wet tumble, so rust might be a real issue for me, even if I oven dry.
I'm not worried about wearing things out (real or perceived). I assume all things to be consumable will heavy use, so I don't get wrapped up over it if/when it happens. My rifles see an 80/20 diet of steel ammo and seem to manage.
Thanks.
I wet tumble, so rust might be a real issue for me, even if I oven dry.
I'm not worried about wearing things out (real or perceived). I assume all things to be consumable will heavy use, so I don't get wrapped up over it if/when it happens. My rifles see an 80/20 diet of steel ammo and seem to manage.
I don't reload, so take this for what it is, but some folks on TOS have reloaded steel cases. No concerns that I read about, however.
If you're interested, I've been saving some cases (scrap metal is scrap metal, right?). I could send you a hundred for testing if you want.
I don't reload, so take this for what it is, but some folks on TOS have reloaded steel cases. No concerns that I read about, however.
If you're interested, I've been saving some cases (scrap metal is scrap metal, right?). I could send you a hundred for testing if you want.
I appreciate the offer, thank you. I do have a bunch already, so I may try out a few for fun.
I don't really NEED to do it, but if a guy could load decently accurate ammo with throw away cases it would make lost brass events more enjoyable. :)
HackerF15E
10-16-13, 10:22
Thanks.
I wet tumble, so rust might be a real issue for me, even if I oven dry.
I'm not worried about wearing things out (real or perceived). I assume all things to be consumable will heavy use, so I don't get wrapped up over it if/when it happens. My rifles see an 80/20 diet of steel ammo and seem to manage.
I wet tumble, too - that's why the cases in that photo don't have any of the poly coating on them.
The only thing I do differently than with brass is I don't do a clean-water-rinse after the rumble, and I blow the cases dry with an air compressor. I don't have an explanation as to why this works, but it does -- something about keeping the soapy water residue on the cases keeps them from rusting. If you do a clean water rinse and don't do something else to the cases (like vibrating tumbler with car wax), they'll rust within days (and sometimes even overnight depending on the humidity).
I also do not re-tumble after sizing to remove the case lube; I just wipe the cases clean lightly with a rag.
I have steel stuff I've reloaded that has been sitting in the safe for over 18 months and hasn't developed any rust yet.
HackerF15E
10-16-13, 10:25
it would make lost brass events more enjoyable.
I do it partly for that reason, but also because steel .223 cases are plentiful at my range and brass is not.
I don't do any bullseye or benchrest shooting, so I don't spend much time navel-gazing at the group size of the reloaded steel, but from the shooting I do (steel man-sized silhouettes out to 400 yards) it is just as accurate as any of the other loads I put together.
It is also nice to not have any concern for cases lost in the tall grass or gravel.
I do it partly for that reason, but also because steel .223 cases are plentiful at my range and brass is not.
I don't do any bullseye or benchrest shooting, so I don't spend much time navel-gazing at the group size of the reloaded steel, but from the shooting I do (steel man-sized silhouettes out to 400 yards) it is just as accurate as any of the other loads I put together.
It is also nice to not have any concern for cases lost in the tall grass or gravel.
Same here, I just need moderately accurate and reliable. My biggest issue is leaving the brass. It really bugs me. Lol
Good to know about the clean water rinse, I may play around with this idea over the winter.
Thanks.
My biggest issue is leaving the brass. It really bugs me. Lol
No kidding. That's my issue too. I do most of shooting at my house. I have a 50 & 200 yard range & now, especially with the leaves on the ground, I spend more time looking for brass than I do shooting. I'm even contemplating buying a metal detector. It's nice when shooting my AKs that I can just leave the cases lay.
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No kidding. That's my issue too. I do most of shooting at my house. I have a 50 & 200 yard range & now, especially with the leaves on the ground, I spend more time looking for brass than I do shooting. I'm even contemplating buying a metal detector. It's nice when shooting my AKs that I can just leave the cases lay.
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This is why we have rakes hanging in the shelters on the firing lines at our gun club. You want to rake the leaves before you shoot. It makes finding spent brass and steel cases easier.
I am thinking about throwing a leaf blower in the Jeep to clear the area of leaves around my firing position before I fire.
This is why we have rakes hanging in the shelters on the firing lines at our gun club. You want to rake the leaves before you shoot. It makes finding spent brass and steel cases easier.
I am thinking about throwing a leaf blower in the Jeep to clear the area of leaves around my firing position before I fire.
It's not so bad for my ARs, they seem to fall into a nice little pile. My pistols spray brass all over into an area that really isn't "rakeable". But yeah, if I wasn't so lazy, it'd definitely help. ;)
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My LMT MRP non-piston version feeds tula like shit through a goose. Multiple classes and thousands of practice rounds. Still shoots tight groups and I use the tears of shooters watching their high priced brass fall into the dirt to grease my BCG. I shoot brass as often as I can reload it, but with powder scarce, $10+ 5.56 and lines like those at Disney world to get rationed ammo, steel is prevalent and cheap. If a rifle that I own won't feed steel reliably it is not going to occupy my safe. I prefer Tula to Wolf and other steel products, for some reason for me it groups tighter and shoots better than the other brands. Never thought about reloading it and I was interested to here about the experience shared in doing this and the results.
SpankMonkey
10-16-13, 22:03
I quit shooting Wolf years ago. I only shoot Tula. Love the stuff and run it all the time. I've never had a gun tula would not run in.
I never shoot brass after firing tula. The steel cases do not seal well and leave blow by gas material in the chamber which brass can stick too.
Yes I use a drill with chamber brush. 15 seconds in the chamber and run a bore snake three times down the bore. I can't remember the last time I had a jamb of any kind. It works great and have been doing it for years.
Remember kids.... your chamber is Chrome lined. Which do you think is harder, the chrome lining or the brass brush?
Now we have a chamber cleaning brush powered by an electric drill motor and reloading of steel case ammo in the same thread...What the hell has happened to M4C...:suicide2:
Brass is super slick. Polymer coated steel...not so much. Oil the rounds (no your gun won't blow up) and extraction and feeding will be smoother.
There is nothing wrong with steel case ammo. However, the powders used by TULA create pressure curves that don't necessarily peak at the best time to operate varying AR gas systems.
Corect me if i am wrong but i dont think this is a good idea" oil the rounds ,excessive chamber pressure? "
Wormydog1724
10-17-13, 08:01
BCM BCG
DD 10.3" barrel
AAC SDN-6 suppressor
1,000 rounds Tula
450 rounds Hornady Steel Match
No issues, slight cleaning every 500 rounds, FireClean applied when needed (dry).
I'm not touching any of the other silliness in this thread.
Wow, never thought this thread would get this far. Thanks for the responses on those who have used steel cased ammo. I may pick up a box of Wolf and Tula to check each for accuracy and to just check them out in my Colt M4.
HackerF15E
10-18-13, 09:11
Now we have a chamber cleaning brush powered by an electric drill motor and reloading of steel case ammo in the same thread...What the hell has happened to M4C...:suicide2:
Hopefully, in my case, it means M4C has people with experience in a particular area passing that information on, rather than allowing barracks rumors about the topic to perpetuate and become "fact".
Agreed.
OP: I had a 6920 with close to 20K of steel cased ammo shot through it, and yours should be fine. I've shot (spread over 5 ARs) maybe 60K of wolf, +12K of brown bear and 5K of golden tiger (both lacquered) to date, including several 3 day carbine courses and only clean at the 4 or 5K mark, but the bcg, bolt and chamber are generously lubed. You might have a cleaning rod available on standby in case of a stuck case...not that a stuck case is steel ammo specific since I've had stuck brass cases as well, but it is a good idea.
I feel like we were brothers separated at birth.
Thank you for sharing,
Brandon.
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