View Full Version : Which Barrel Maker for .308 Bolt Gun?
I'm going to be building a new .308 bolt gun on a hardly used 1970's Remmy 700 action. Barrel is going to be 23" (couldn't decide between 22" and 24" so I split the difference) and threaded 5/8-24. I just can't decide on whose barrel to use. My thoughts currently:
Pac-Nor Heavy Palma countour Super-Match Stainless (They make Noveske's barrels so I've heard): 1:10 Polygonal or 1:11 5 groove
Rock Creek M24/M40 countour: 1:11 5R
I'm kinda leaning towards the Pac-Nor 1:10 but I'm thinking the twist is a little fast. Going to be only shooting 168's & 190's a little and 175's a lot.
Benchmark.
... and 1:10 is a great twist for 308.
I voted with my money for a 20in Bartlein 1:11.25 in #7 contour on my .308 bolt gun and have been very pleased.
Guns-up.50
10-13-13, 00:59
I voted with my money for a 20in Bartlein 1:11.25 in #7 contour on my .308 bolt gun and have been very pleased.
This is what i am looking at only in 24, but rock barrels are sick too
One vote here for Schneider. It was recommended by the man that built my M40A3 clone. Builder recommended 1:12 and there have been no problems with 175 Matchkings out to 1k. I haven't tried anything heavier, either supersonice or subsonic so I can't speak to that.
Keith
USMC_Anglico
10-13-13, 10:18
Like everything, barrels are an individual choice. If you go with a top notch maker than you'll more than likely be fine.
I use Krieger, have had great success. They also do 5R rifling under license now too. Mine is a standard Krieger, went with 1:11. Had them chamber to my supplied bolt. It's a tack driver, I've gotten it under .5", which is amazing with my average shooting. I'm waiting on my President's 100 buddy to really wring it out.
One vote here for Schneider. It was recommended by the man that built my M40A3 clone. Builder recommended 1:12 and there have been no problems with 175 Matchkings out to 1k. I haven't tried anything heavier, either supersonice or subsonic so I can't speak to that.
Keith
If buying a new barrel and intending to shoot primarily 175g SMK, I would not get a 1:12 barrel. It may get it done to 1000, but it may also not have the same spin stability past that where it still would have the energy and velocity to keep going. Some people say 1:11.25 (like my gunsmith Moon Roberts told me) is the sweet spot for 175SMK, certainly there is no issue with 1:10.
You see 1:12 in a lot of factory Remington barrels, and I think it is fine for 168g SMK's which happen to not be very stable into the transonic anyway.
At least.. that's what I've been told by various people. Some of these things are harder to get a first hand grip on :)
TurretGunner
10-14-13, 22:35
Bartlien is really top of the heap right now, closely followed by Krieger and then Rock Creek.
Check this thread out.
http://forum.snipershide.com/s4-sniper%92s-hide%AE-equipment/213864-best-precision-rifle-equipment-what-pros-use.html
Krieger has more barrels out there, but most top end builders and shooters will tell you bartliens are more consistant, and the gain twist is awsome.
Bartlien is really top of the heap right now You mean they are the "flavor of the month" which is required to be on your rifle if you are to be accepted into the "cool kids club" on snipershide? ... because that's all it is.
Twice in the last 3 months I've punched a group in the zero's with benchmark barrels during load development.
Every single top end barrel manufacturer has the capability of producing record-setting barrels. To claim one better than the other based on the number of people using them is as flawed of logic as I've seen. Every brand listed thus far is in use in benchrest competition... where REAL accuracy counts on paper, and the brand of barrels that are winning certainly aren't necessarily the same ones you see the "pro's" using in tactical matches. The old "boring" companies like lilja, brux, and obermeyer can be found winning. Not because they are necessarily better than the rest, but because that's what the winning shooters happen to have on their rifle at the time they win.
These days I shoot benchmark, because they are readily available, easy on the wallet, and have been shooting amazingly well.
To say one top barrel manufacturer is better than all the rest is purely subjective, totally impossible to substantiate, and has absolutely nothing to do with anything other than picking the brand approved by the cool kids club. A barrel will either shoot, or it won't. Brand won't make one little bit of difference if your rifle shoots bugholes.
Bartlien is really top of the heap right now, closely followed by Krieger and then Rock Creek.
Check this thread out.
http://forum.snipershide.com/s4-sniper%92s-hide%AE-equipment/213864-best-precision-rifle-equipment-what-pros-use.html
Krieger has more barrels out there, but most top end builders and shooters will tell you bartliens are more consistant, and the gain twist is awsome.
I'm also curious what you base this on. There's no doubt Bartlien makes quality barrels, but is there some data you can share to show that they're "really top of the heap right now" or are you just basing this on what the current fad is?
I've had guns in the last couple of years with Benchmark, Brux, Krieger, and Obermeyer barrels and they've all shot great. Any of the top barrel makers will turn out a good blank.
KiloSierra
10-15-13, 12:38
I would be more concerned with who's going to chamber and fit the barrel then who's making it as long as it's a quality barrel. A factory Remington barrel will usually shoot almost as good as a custom barrel if a good gunsmith trues the action and refits and chambers the barrel correctly.
TurretGunner
10-15-13, 16:47
You mean they are the "flavor of the month" which is required to be on your rifle if you are to be accepted into the "cool kids club" on snipershide? ... because that's all it is.
Twice in the last 3 months I've punched a group in the zero's with benchmark barrels during load development.
Every single top end barrel manufacturer has the capability of producing record-setting barrels. To claim one better than the other based on the number of people using them is as flawed of logic as I've seen. Every brand listed thus far is in use in benchrest competition... where REAL accuracy counts on paper, and the brand of barrels that are winning certainly aren't necessarily the same ones you see the "pro's" using in tactical matches. The old "boring" companies like lilja, brux, and obermeyer can be found winning. Not because they are necessarily better than the rest, but because that's what the winning shooters happen to have on their rifle at the time they win.
These days I shoot benchmark, because they are readily available, easy on the wallet, and have been shooting amazingly well.
To say one top barrel manufacturer is better than all the rest is purely subjective, totally impossible to substantiate, and has absolutely nothing to do with anything other than picking the brand approved by the cool kids club. A barrel will either shoot, or it won't. Brand won't make one little bit of difference if your rifle shoots bugholes.
Most of the top rifle makers and most of the top shooters are shooting Bartliens for a reason. Any one can make a good barrel, but apparantly Bartliens are making more consitant barrels than Kreiger right now. Its not some flavor of the month.... You got lucky with your benchmark, congrats. Does every one they put out shoot that well? Out of 1000 barrels, how many don't shoot, Vice Bartlien or Krigers? There is a reason people use certain gear, and its not always sponsership.
TurretGunner
10-15-13, 16:47
I would be more concerned with who's going to chamber and fit the barrel then who's making it as long as it's a quality barrel. A factory Remington barrel will usually shoot almost as good as a custom barrel if a good gunsmith trues the action and refits and chambers the barrel correctly.
No, it won't. Not even close.
TurretGunner
10-15-13, 16:54
I'm also curious what you base this on. There's no doubt Bartlien makes quality barrels, but is there some data you can share to show that they're "really top of the heap right now" or are you just basing this on what the current fad is?
I've had guns in the last couple of years with Benchmark, Brux, Krieger, and Obermeyer barrels and they've all shot great. Any of the top barrel makers will turn out a good blank.
People who have more shooting experince and reputation than just about anyone on the globe... say this. Guys who shoot hundreds of rounds a week through their PR's, who have owned or own many different brands say this. No one is saying you would be undergunned with a Brux or Obermeyer....or even a Creek. They are saying that they get more consistant shooters with Bartlien, and the gain twist is not offered by many other manufactures.
Bartlien is really top of the heap right now, closely followed by Krieger and then Rock Creek.
Check this thread out.
http://forum.snipershide.com/s4-sniper%92s-hide%AE-equipment/213864-best-precision-rifle-equipment-what-pros-use.html
Krieger has more barrels out there, but most top end builders and shooters will tell you bartliens are more consistant, and the gain twist is awsome.
while i agree bartlein is top of the heap at the moment (which is not to say kriegers can't be just as accurate, but there is more to it than just accuracy), there is a lot behind the scenes on those numbers and i wouldn't use that thread to base a lot of decisions on.
1st, understand that it was a single match and despite the fact that there were 50 of the best tactical/practical shooters in the country there, that match is about 90% mental and 10% equipment and in a tight race, one shot can move you up or down a lot in the rankings because of the way that match is scored. The shooters won, not their gear. And despite the difficulty of the course of fire (e.g. almost all the 1000 yard shots were taken from standing), probably 70% of that particular match was paper inside 100 yards. every gun there was capable of hitting 3" shoot n see at 70 yards, but 20 shots in 2-3 minutes from 5 different positions, half weak side, climbing through the mousetrap is really a test of the shooter, not the rifle.
2nd, team sponsors determine equipment, more than opinions of the individuals. the team surgeon guys shoot krieger barrels and the team GAP guys shoot bartlein barrels. it's not a coincidence that there were 5 surgeons and 3 gaps in the top ten and 5 kriegers and 3 bartleins in the top ten.
it would be a mistake to draw any conclusion from that other than one team shot better than the other on that weekend.
that said, this i why i think they're top of the heap
The uniformity in our barrels and finish of the bores is second to none. Our rifling machines are so accurate, we can carry the twist rate to the 4th decimal point (example: 11.3642). The process of Single Point Cut Rifling is the most stress free way to rifle a barrel. The twist is exact, where as other forms of rifling can have variances due to the process they use. Also, the bore and groove dimensions are more uniform.
and this
http://www.bartleinbarrels.com/Trifling.htm
TurretGunner
10-15-13, 19:14
I agree with everything you say. I was basing my assertation off a culmination of things, that Write up being one. Other people I highly respect and value their opinions, and a large segment of the tactical/practical shooting community seems to have a consensus. Most of those guys sort out which gear works, and which doesn't real quick. Its an expensive sport/hobby, and guys don't like it when they think they are lossing beacuse of subpar equipment (not that the other makers are subpar).
You got lucky with your benchmark, congrats. Right, and I suppose the 3 dozen other benchmark barrels I've tested in the last year have all been "luck" too, right?
Get your head out of your ass.
TurretGunner
10-15-13, 23:44
Right, and I suppose the 3 dozen other benchmark barrels I've tested in the last year have all been "luck" too, right?
Get your head out of your ass.
Enjoy your Barrels. I love a good value /bargain.
Benchmark.
... and 1:10 is a great twist for 308.
What is the lightest weight bullet you have been able to shoot well under MOA out of a 1:10 twist barrel?
What is the lightest weight bullet you have been able to shoot well under MOA out of a 1:10 twist barrel?
I had 110's sub-moa before. I think it has more to do with the chamber and how you're loading them than it has to do with the twist rate. I didn't spend a lot of time on it though. I tried 110's out of a factory 1:12 sps varmint, and it was horribad. Same load from a benchmark 26" 1:10 was 1/2 moa.
As I said, I spent very little time on the 110's though. Not much experience with them.
I had 110's sub-moa before. I think it has more to do with the chamber and how you're loading them than it has to do with the twist rate. I didn't spend a lot of time on it though. I tried 110's out of a factory 1:12 sps varmint, and it was horribad. Same load from a benchmark 26" 1:10 was 1/2 moa.
As I said, I spent very little time on the 110's though. Not much experience with them.
I agree, I don't think 1:10 is going to "overspin" anything. It will however make a bigger difference if your dope is not calculated with spin drift enabled :)
I had 110's sub-moa before. I think it has more to do with the chamber and how you're loading them than it has to do with the twist rate. I didn't spend a lot of time on it though. I tried 110's out of a factory 1:12 sps varmint, and it was horribad. Same load from a benchmark 26" 1:10 was 1/2 moa.
As I said, I spent very little time on the 110's though. Not much experience with them.
Thanks for the reply.
I have shot 10 shot groups well under 1 MOA at 300 yards with Hornady 155g factory ammunition. I was surprised that a lighter load would do so well out of my 1:10 barreled Savage.
A local rifle shooter gave me a recipe for a 125g load that will shoot under MOA out of his Remington 700 at 600 yards. He said that the load will shoot under 1-1/4 MOA out of his Savage 10FCP. A 125g load shooting under 1-1/4 MOA out of a fast twist barrel is impressive.
I couldn't help but chime in here as the discussion on bbl mfr's and twists is always an interesting and lively discussion.
That being said, there are some very valid points in previous posts.
My opinion is very specifically that - an opinion. It is based on actual experience though. I have been shooting & smithing for 35 years and punched all the tickets - High Master, Presidents Hundred, Distinguished, Palma Twenty along with some national trophies. My game has been NM and tactical/precision LR.
I have had the good luck to use some outstanding barrels. I have also had the misfortune to shoot some dogs.
It is absoultely within reason that one can shoot any brand barrel and win with it. I have shot Hart, Douglas, Obermeyer, Krieger, Schnieder, Rocky Mountain, Lilja, Pac Nor, Rock & Noveske as well as others that I can't even remember. I have also shot OEM tubes from Savage, Winchester, Remington et al. Based on this and the literally tens of thousands of rounds that I have launched, I have learned some hard and fast truths.
1. Consistency - custom manufactureres offer astounding consistency. It's not 100%, but it is exponentially better than an OEM bbl. I have had OEM bbls that were stunningingly accurate - but they were the exception - not the norm. Other than one year where there was an issue with the lot of steel that Krieger got (IIRC - it was imported Jap steel) that was really soft - the bbls shot great - but were shot out within 5 or 600 rds, I have never had an issue with any of the custom bbls.
2. Maybe should be #1, but regardless - you get what you pay for. Buy a bargain bbl - get a bargain barrel.
3. Fitting - ill fit bbls, will never achieve their potential - ever.
4. Ammo vs bbl. ammuntion needs to be developed to take advantage of the inherent precision in a custom bbl. All to often, handloads are not developed correctly and accuracy is left on the loading bench.
My personal favorites are Kriegers and Obermeyers. They are the most consistent barrels I have shot - barrel to barrel to barrel on bolt guns as well as gas guns. I know exactly what I am getting. Now, the MOST accurate barrel I have ever shot?... a Rocky Mountain on a NM AR15 that was an absolute laser - never had another one that could get the X counts and tight groups that one did. I had a Badger bbl an a NM AR that I could not get to shoot to save my soul. It was a "broach cut" 1 in 8 and it was a shotgun past 500yds. I had to make a decison that I had wasted enough time / powder / bullets etc and it was relegated to a fun gun. I would have a fair amount of hesitation to go down that road again - this isn't a knock on Badger - maybe it was one that got through. I also have had 2 Obermeyer 5R (1/11.25) on an M-24 clone - both laser beams - they absolutely hammered 180 Sierra SMK's (old style 9 deg boat tail) at 1000. Same load.
The point is - what a portion of the price tag represents is consistency.
The custom bbls offer features that a discriminating shooter appreciates. These characteristics come to light when you are pushing the envelope for accuracy and range. If one is going to do nothing other than fool around at 100yds, then this stuff really doesn't matter. If you are a serious bench rester or a precision LR guy, then take note.
Twist rates are important - but buyer beware - sometimes, based on how the bbl was rifled, they are more of an approximation. Current manufacturing has allowed great precision and rates can be held to what was indicated. Single point cut rifled barrels are very accurate for twist rates. SOME button rifled bbls suffer slip and the twist rates are slower than advertised. There are all sorts of sub discussion on pull button rifling vs push button rifling. (Another day...) Case in point - a friend had a 1/8 on NM AR. Could not get 80 Sierras to shoot at all never mind 600yds. We ended up checking the twist rate and it was closer to 1 in 8.75 than 8; Too slow for an 80 and they wouldn't stabilize.
Button barrels generally have smoother finishes. Cut rifled barrels need to be lapped - this is where more of that price tag comes in.
Bore scopes don't lie - startling what the inside of a bore looks like.
I will second the comment earlier about chambering - absolutely CRITICAL for precison / accuracy. Especially the throating. There are a lot of methods and techniques as well as reamers. Put a big ol' sloppy SAAMI max spec chamber in a beautiful custom barrel and my money says ho-hum performer. Same same on crowning - which again reinforces the baseline here - smith work/fitting/threading/chambering/crowning/throating, all contribute to a system. Screw one up and well - proof is on the paper.
IMHO - stick with a custom name brand bbl mfr - Obermeyer, Bartlien, Krieger etc. Specify exactly what you want. Bore / groove dimension & type, twist, length and use an expert smith to finish it. Chambering is a whole other world as well - there are hundreds of variations on the .308 chamber. Everyone wants to tweak a dimension. Look at neck diameters - are you going to turn necks? If not - what brass? Tighter is not always better. I have .308 bolt guns that must have necks turned; one is a .333 neck - no way around it. Another has a .339 neck - it will swallow Lapua and WW but not Fed GM or LC brass. Know what you want and how you will use it - define your requirements and the choices become clearer.
OrdnanceLocker
10-18-13, 23:08
You got lucky with your benchmark, congrats.
Enjoy your Barrels. I love a good value /bargain.
He didn't get lucky. Ron turns out GREAT barrels. They're heavily used by MANY match shooters up here and we consider them to be a well kept secret that's now becoming not so secret. Bartlien and Kreiger are great barrels, but if you think a Benchmark barrel can't hold its own with the big boys I would gladly invite you to attend a PRS match up here and shoot against a few of them then actually have an opinion on something based upon experience with that product and not some pompous opinion you got from the internet.
I have a Krieger barrel on my 300WM. I have another Bartlein and Krieger on stand by when my Remmy 5R's ( or my shooting partner) gun needs re barreled.
Let me say what has not been said.
Southern precision AKA bugholes has a good variety of barrels in stock.
My thought on barrels. If Remmy can mass produce 5R SS barrels that usually shoot MOA or better. Three of my four where sub MOA and my .223 5R is a .25 gun. One was a dog, that's your risk with mass produced, but I bet Remmy would have replaced had I not Kriegered it. Then any manufacture that hangs their hat on building just barrels, is probably going to make a remarkable barrel.
Krieger bartlein, rock, etc
PB's last point, the best barrels shoot more loads great. It shouldn't take 6 weeks to dial in a load.
PB out
After reading the posts here, thank you to all who posted, I decided to go with a Lija in 1:10 with a custom palma contour to match the contour on my .223 gun. At this point I have to decide who is going to put my baby together. Having watched Ozzie's videos, Suarez Tactical, on YouTube I was going to go with him. Turns out he took down his gunsmithing shingle and retired. There's some local Las Vegas 'smiths who do work but I don't know how much they get into the detail of building an accurate gun.
Krieger. They now hold the world record for smallest group on record, .0077" shot with a 30 Stewart (modified Grendel case). Also shows how accurate a 30 caliber can be on the 39mm (ppc, Grendel) case.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/08/inside-look-at-world-record-0077-group-the-gun-and-ammo/
I honestly do not think you can go wrong with any of the major manufactures. I prefer Krieger, Shilen, Hart, and Bartlein and have one of each on some of my firearms.
I was just about to ask about Hart--did they somehow become unfashionable? I've watched a few guys who are a lot more talented than me do some amazing things with them. Same question about Pac Nor--is there something they do wrong now that they didn't previously?
Nothing wrong with Hart, but people tend to jump on bandwagons when one maker becomes hot. Pac Nor, I am not sure about them, I have only got one barrel from them and had to return it because of a manufacturing defect (was not drilled or contoured straight).
I think its pretty hard to go wrong with most barrel makers. I had a gun built with a McGowan barrel that shot the lights out and another with a Montana Rifle Company barrel that was sub .5MOA as well. These days its choose you poison and have fun.
TurretGunner
01-17-14, 09:03
Listen to the people who own a few dozen of each. Guys that have atleast shot some barrels out. Guys that compete with them and are going to chose the one that helps them win the most.
There are really two options. The way I look at it, what is the point of not going with the best, when the prices are essentialy the same.
Krieger and Barltien rule the competion and long range shooting world for a reason. The builders use them for a reason....... Feel free to Call GAP, APA, SAC, KMW or any of the top rifle smiths and the country and ask them what they use.......
Kriegers have been steadily losing ground to Bartlien for years.... I would go with a krieger ONLY if there was not a comparable Bartlien to be had and a long wait.
At least it's cut rifled barrels we're arguing over here. I won't get into the brand wars but I will recommend you get a medium Palma barrel. It won't reduce accuracy in any sense that you'll notice but it will make for a much lighter rifle.
I agree with the medium palma contour unless you are not looking for a light rifle. I have M24 contours on a couple rifles in. 308 and they are very light recoiling guns, very fun to shoot.
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