View Full Version : Drinking the AK74 (5.45x39) Koolaid....
......and loving it. :cool:
I'm sure we have all been there. The thought of "how much am I actually spending on ammo? I eventually reached that point were .50 + for good 5.56x45 wasn't feasible any longer. Whether it be professional training, practicing drills, or just blowing off some steam with buddies there was "the cost". Kinda sucked the fun out of it.:confused:
Then a range buddy showed me his SLG-31. I was impressed. Recoil was......well.... what recoi??:rolleyes:, and it was accurate. What sold me is looking up prices of mil surp 5.45x39. Tins (1,080rds) reached an all time high of $220 during the panic, and have found there way back to $170 (cheaper at times). Even during said "panic", cases were readily available. I was just spending 499.99 for a case of 5.56mm!! :eek:
My mind was made up. I sold the AR and remaining 5.56. With that money I was able to buy a Bulgarian AK74 (bulgy CHF and chrome lined barrel with a series 100 side folder stock), a tin of 5.45x39, and had enough to buy a Glock I was eyeballing.
Condensed? I'm poor. I like shooting. It makes for a good all purpose carbine, cheap to feed, and I now have a usable pistol. I'm stocked up on ammo, and happy with it. :D
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s424/Rmillerm4/image_zps5895ca79.jpg
That's awesome. The price of ownership of the AR platform has gone up like crazy. I'm glad you like your rifle, it looks like a real nice shooter. It's great that you get to keep shooting because that's what really matters. I have thought about doing this exact same thing but have been on the fence about it.
That's awesome. The price of ownership of the AR platform has gone up like crazy. I'm glad you like your rifle, it looks like a real nice shooter. It's great that you get to keep shooting because that's what really matters. I have thought about doing this exact same thing but have been on the fence about it.
I was too, until I handled one. The 5.45x39 puts a new spin on the AK platform. It was night and day to the WASR 10 in 7.62x39 in terms of quality and shoot-ability.
The mods I've done are cheap and simple. US palm grip, krebs safety, and slightly widened the rear sight notch along with rounding the sharp corners.
diving dave
10-13-13, 12:20
I've had the kool aid myself, it's good. I picked up an arsenal SGL 31 and at first I still really preferred the AR. But I added a Midwest railed foreend, an aim point , us palm grip and a vltor stock adaptor... I lov e this thing now.
There's always the option of a 5.45x39 upper for an AR as well.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
english kanigit
10-13-13, 15:22
I am VERY interested in this platform and always have been but, in terms of ballistics, 7.62x39 is my preference.
Additionally, stocking for and supporting another platform/caliber is not financially possible for me at this time.
Ek
PatrioticDisorder
10-13-13, 15:28
I've had the kool aid myself, it's good. I picked up an arsenal SGL 31 and at first I still really preferred the AR. But I added a Midwest railed foreend, an aim point , us palm grip and a vltor stock adaptor... I lov e this thing now.
Any pics? I'm eyeballing the SGL 31 as my next purchase (do not own any AKs) and I plan to make the same upgrades to it when I buy it, curious to see how it looks in it's current form.... Also, what is the weight of the rifle in this configuration?
I have been taking my 74's to range more lately too, I like the flatter trajectory and less recoil; of course ammo prices are a plus here as well.
There's always the option of a 5.45x39 upper for an AR as well.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
Any issues with magazine compatibility?
Rascal
"You can never be too rich, too good looking, or too well armed"
Djstorm100
10-13-13, 19:04
Looks great! I've been wanting one but know zero about them compared ar's
Using tapatalk
I think I have more 5.45 rifles than 5.56 now. The only thing I don't like about 5.45 is that too many people are discovering it's merits! I love 7n6...for the money it can't be topped if you shoot much volume at all. It does require cleaning after every range trip, but I don't mind that myself.
brushy bill
10-13-13, 19:34
I'd be on these like a fat woman on an ice cream sandwich, but not seeing magazine availability. Good source for these (not used Aim Surplus mags)? Or should I go to the "where can I find it" thread?
morbidbattlecry
10-13-13, 20:27
I picked up a WW74 last week and have been thrilled with it.
Man it's great koolaid isn't it :D
Djstorm100
10-13-13, 21:46
Whats a good brand with chomoly chamber/barrel?
Whats a good brand with chomoly chamber/barrel?
Arsenal is generally considered a solid buy, but if it were me I'd probably just get a Waffen Works (since I already have an Arsenal AK).
Djstorm100
10-14-13, 08:49
Arsenal is generally considered a solid buy, but if it were me I'd probably just get a Waffen Works (since I already have an Arsenal AK).
Why a ww? Just curious. I've been reading about them briefly.
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5.45 is a fun game...I don't shoot the mil-surp stuff because most of it has a penetrator core and it tears up the backstop at the NRA. If I lived somewhere I could shoot outdoors without driving an hour or more, I'd get a few cases of the surplus stuff.
I'd be on these like a fat woman on an ice cream sandwich, but not seeing magazine availability. Good source for these (not used Aim Surplus mags)? Or should I go to the "where can I find it" thread?
Copes just had Polish steel mags @ $15. I think they went up to $20 now. And Rguns has Bulgy/Russian @ $17
I have 3 different types of 5.45. Love the round and the platform
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2
Why a ww? Just curious. I've been reading about them briefly.
Using tapatalk
Its pretty cheap compared to most others, and though its a US weapon, what I've seen on it has been very positive.
I've come REAL close to sipping on that kool aid myself. I just have so much vested in the multiple AR platforms I own. I have been shooting more steel case as of late though. Doesn't make sense for me to get into another rifle caliber.
I've come REAL close to sipping on that kool aid myself. I just have so much vested in the multiple AR platforms I own. I have been shooting more steel case as of late though. Doesn't make sense for me to get into another rifle caliber.
Same here.
So whats your accuracy look like out of that AK?
How does 5.45 compare in ballistics gel to 5.56?
.
.
.
Instead of changing platforms the more sensible solution just be...
... start reloading.
TacticalSledgehammer
10-14-13, 18:02
I'd like to try the koolaid in the ar platform myself. (nothing against the ak74 I'm just setup better for the AR).
morbidbattlecry
10-14-13, 18:40
So whats your accuracy look like out of that AK?
How does 5.45 compare in ballistics gel to 5.56?
.
.
.
Instead of changing platforms the more sensible solution just be...
... start reloading.
I've had exceptional accuracy out of my WW74 with Golden Tiger. I would imagine if i had a SGL31 it would be on par with a standard chrome lined barrel.
I've had exceptional accuracy out of my WW74 with Golden Tiger. I would imagine if i had a SGL31 it would be on par with a standard chrome lined barrel.
I'm not against the AKs, all I'm saying is that if ammo cost is the problem... reloading is the answer.
Everyone who shoots at a pro level either reloads, is rich, or is sponsored...
I'll keep the superior accuracy, ergonomics, modularity and terminal ballistics (when compared to 5.45) thank you very much
:eek:
I'm not against the AKs, all I'm saying is that if ammo cost is the problem... reloading is the answer.
Everyone who shoots at a pro level either reloads, is rich, or is sponsored...
I'll keep the superior accuracy, ergonomics, modularity and terminal ballistics (when compared to 5.45) thank you very much
:eek:
There's a startup cost and the start of a hobby. Its time consuming.
Besides reloading supplies were just as scarce as ammo months back.
I'm just now seeing them come back.
The ammo I'm buying is .14 to .17 a round.
I played the 5.56 vs 5.45 game and I'm winning with 5.45. :jester:
Also I'm not wanting this to turn into a 5.45x39 vs 5.56x45 debate. I was simply explaining my experience this far with my new platform.
Why a ww? Just curious. I've been reading about them briefly.
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WW has a solid price point. I converted a buddy of mine just recently. He was in the same spot. Had an AR with minimal ammo and wanted something cheaper to shoot (more often). That was when WW rifles were hitting the market.
So far he's happy with it. It's not a com block barrel, but its chrome lined. He's getting good groups out of it.
WW has a solid price point. I converted a buddy of mine just recently. He was in the same spot. Had an AR with minimal ammo and wanted something cheaper to shoot (more often). That was when WW rifles were hitting the market.
So far he's happy with it. It's not a com block barrel, but its chrome lined. He's getting good groups out of it.
I remember when SGL21s were briefly $400 around 2007 or so. God how I wish I had the money to have bought 20 of them.
What kind of groups are you guys getting?
I have 3 74s, but I can't find any ammo that shoots sub 6 moa. I've tried every type of ammo I could find over the last 8 years.
They are fun to shoot, and relatively cheap. The problem is the size of my groups.
Is that cheap ammo corrosive?
Also, got that K pretty cheap, is your barrel chrome lined?
I think pretty much all the cheap ammo is corrosive. I wouldn't shoot it out non chrome lined bore.
Yes its corrosive. Shoot it out of a non chrome lined barrel...who cares so long as you clean it.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk now Free ('http://tapatalk.com/m?id=10')
I remember when SGL21s were briefly $400 around 2007 or so. God how I wish I had the money to have bought 20 of them.
Yes, there's that "I wish I knew then what I know now." :D
Tins of 5.45 were $80 too back when. $5 Bulgy cirlce 10, 21, and 25 mags.
Now that was CHEAP:eek:
I'd have arsenals, cheap mags, and 30,000 of ammo. :rolleyes:
Is that cheap ammo corrosive?
Also, got that K pretty cheap, is your barrel chrome lined?
Yes it is.
Not an issue. Flush with water or water/ballistol. Dry. Relube with choice of lube. CLP is cheap. ;)
Djstorm100
10-15-13, 07:18
WW has a solid price point. I converted a buddy of mine just recently. He was in the same spot. Had an AR with minimal ammo and wanted something cheaper to shoot (more often). That was when WW rifles were hitting the market.
So far he's happy with it. It's not a com block barrel, but its chrome lined. He's getting good groups out of it.
" No a com Block barrel"
Sorry for me lack of knowledge but what is this?
bullittmcqueen
10-15-13, 07:20
Yes, there's that "I wish I knew then what I know now." :D
Tins of 5.45 were $80 too back when. $5 Bulgy cirlce 10, 21, and 25 mags.
Now that was CHEAP:eek:
I'd have arsenals, cheap mags, and 30,000 of ammo. :rolleyes:
Good Lord. Reading that makes me sad. I don't think those days will ever come again.
" No a com Block barrel"
Sorry for me lack of knowledge but what is this?
Not the original barrel. (communist block ...Russia, Bulgaria, E. German..etc..etc). In other words, US made barrel
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
" No a com Block barrel"
Sorry for me lack of knowledge but what is this?
Basically it refers to an original barrel. My Bulgarian Build has the original Bulgarian Cold Hammer Forged and Chrome lined barrel. Most US made barrels aren't either. They just now started chrome lining them.
It's funny most AR15 barrels are sold as upgraded when they are CHF. That's standard practice in AK manufacturing outside of the US as its cheaper and more cost effective.
Getting an Arsenal is the surest way to get a good barrel.
KiloSierra
10-15-13, 07:31
I'll keep the superior accuracy, ergonomics, modularity and terminal ballistics (when compared to 5.45) thank you very much
:eek:
In my experience a decent AK with decent ammo is more accurate then all but a few shooter can shoot in the field and the only thing ergonomically and modularity wise that the AR has now days is the safety and the ability to switch uppers for different roles.
Djstorm100
10-15-13, 07:58
WW has a solid price point. I converted a buddy of mine just recently. He was in the same spot. Had an AR with minimal ammo and wanted something cheaper to shoot (more often). That was when WW rifles were hitting the market.
So far he's happy with it. It's not a com block barrel, but its chrome lined. He's getting good groups out of it.
Basically it refers to an original barrel. My Bulgarian Build has the original Bulgarian Cold Hammer Forged and Chrome lined barrel. Most US made barrels aren't either. They just now started chrome lining them.
It's funny most AR15 barrels are sold as upgraded when they are CHF. That's standard practice in AK manufacturing outside of the US as its cheaper and more cost effective.
Getting an Arsenal is the surest way to get a good barrel.
Looking at getting this and convertining as time went on as a "fun project" or something to do on a rainy day. It has a chrome line barrel...if it is hammer forged...doesn't say.
Every where I see (forums) keep saying to keep orginial barrel? I'm not understanding why keeping old barrel would be better than a new us made chrome lined barrel?
So whats your accuracy look like out of that AK?
How does 5.45 compare in ballistics gel to 5.56?
.
.
.
Instead of changing platforms the more sensible solution just be...
... start reloading.
I load 223/5.56 in bulk but I still like 5.45. I shoot 5.45 in my AK's as well as my AR's. I find that 'practical' accuracy with the AK's is generally just as good as my AR's (I will admit, that's with original barrels on the AK's). And I don't care about the terminal ballistics of 7n6 because it's just making holes in paper or pinging steel targets. For serious use I'll still pick up one of my 5.56 AR's loaded with 62gr bonded soft point ammo but if a '74 loaded with 7n6 was all I had I wouldn't turn my nose up at it.
I was very much more of an AK guy for a while. Still shoot them quite a bit. These pics are before our grip was done and when I was sorting out the TWS rail before I was turned on to the RS stuff. I haven't had as bad an experience with them as some, but return to zero within about 1 MOA was what I could expect. I can wear out a BC steel at 500 yards with the full length gun, so it's certainly usable. The group is from the rifle with the 1-4x on it. The 60 gr V-Max is no slouch if you want performance ammo, and it's inexpensive, to boot--comparatively.
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y366/spqr476/AK/photo.jpg
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y366/spqr476/AK/3gun74.jpeg
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y366/spqr476/AK/image.jpeg
I was very much more of an AK guy for a while. Still shoot them quite a bit. These pics are before our grip was done and when I was sorting out the TWS rail before I was turned on to the RS stuff. I haven't had as bad an experience with them as some, but return to zero within about 1 MOA was what I could expect. I can wear out a BC steel at 500 yards with the full length gun, so it's certainly usable. The group is from the rifle with the 1-4x on it. The 60 gr V-Max is no slouch if you want performance ammo, and it's inexpensive, to boot--comparatively.
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y366/spqr476/AK/photo.jpg
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y366/spqr476/AK/3gun74.jpeg
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y366/spqr476/AK/image.jpeg
Could you please tell me about the rail on the forend of that rifle in the last picture? Thank you.
I'm interested in this as well. What's the story on the handguard?
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y366/spqr476/AK/image.jpeg
Djstorm100
10-15-13, 10:10
anyone know where I can get saiga 545x39 at?
and on a note. The corrosive ammo is NOT that bad. I've left mine in a humid space for 2 weeks after a 500rd class. Not a spec of rust or corrosion anywhere. I cleaned it and lubed it no problems.
Most think you go to the range, stop for lunch, and when you get back home it looks like this:
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s424/Rmillerm4/rustedak_zpscca4c8de.jpg
:jester:
I'm interested in this as well. What's the story on the handguard?
That's the TWS forend. Super solid, very slimline, replaces gas tube, co-planar with the TWS topcover. I like it a lot. Gets very hot, but that's about the only drawback.
Haven't seen them very available since the initial wave...not sure what happened.
That's the TWS forend. Super solid, very slimline, replaces gas tube, co-planar with the TWS topcover. I like it a lot. Gets very hot, but that's about the only drawback.
Haven't seen them very available since the initial wave...not sure what happened.
It look slick none the less.
Heat is a major factor on an AK. Although gloves, and my arsena hadguard hold up fairly well.
Heat is one of the reasons why I typically go Ultimak as opposed to another handguard option (MI, etc); being able to at least retain the Arsenal lower handguard and it's heat shield is a small plus.
At times I wish I woulda gone 5.45 instead of 7.62. That cheap, lightweight ammo. I could of purchased more than double the amount of ammo when I stocked up in early 08. Lighter weight, straighter, smooth backed mags. Less recoil.
PatrioticDisorder
10-15-13, 20:32
I was very much more of an AK guy for a while. Still shoot them quite a bit. These pics are before our grip was done and when I was sorting out the TWS rail before I was turned on to the RS stuff. I haven't had as bad an experience with them as some, but return to zero within about 1 MOA was what I could expect. I can wear out a BC steel at 500 yards with the full length gun, so it's certainly usable. The group is from the rifle with the 1-4x on it. The 60 gr V-Max is no slouch if you want performance ammo, and it's inexpensive, to boot--comparatively.
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y366/spqr476/AK/photo.jpg
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y366/spqr476/AK/3gun74.jpeg
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y366/spqr476/AK/image.jpeg
Any possibility of AK-74 Pmags in the future?
Djstorm100
10-15-13, 22:11
Any possibility of AK-74 Pmags in the future?
Where do you guys find these things at? Been trying to find one for the past 2 weeks!
PatrioticDisorder
10-16-13, 07:00
Where do you guys find these things at? Been trying to find one for the past 2 weeks!
They do not exist, I was attempting to find out if there are any plans to make them in the future. AK-47 Pmags have been developed but have not been released yet, they were announced months ago with a release date of late summer/ early fall so I'm guessing the 47 mags be out sooner rather later. 74 mags would be cool, but obviously the market is smaller so who knows. Considering the price of 74 mags I'm sure many would love to see a high quality relatively cheap alternative to the overpriced surplus mags.
Djstorm100
10-16-13, 08:31
They do not exist, I was attempting to find out if there are any plans to make them in the future. AK-47 Pmags have been developed but have not been released yet, they were announced months ago with a release date of late summer/ early fall so I'm guessing the 47 mags be out sooner rather later. 74 mags would be cool, but obviously the market is smaller so who knows. Considering the price of 74 mags I'm sure many would love to see a high quality relatively cheap alternative to the overpriced surplus mags.
Thanks!
I've been trying to find a ak74 for a while but can't find one with out reading just as many bad reviews as good. (waffen werks) quality has tanked it seems like. I wouldn't want to get aresenal right out of the gate. Like to get one half the price and just shoot the snot out of it.:D But can't find one! lol
The 7.62 mags are currently undergoing one last change to get the endurance test performance where it needs to be, and perhaps some fitment adjustments pending some incoming data points.
5.45 is a sticky wicket. Surplus mags are no longer a cost-effective reality, but the overall numbers on 5.45 guns is very small compared to 7.62. We're looking at the numbers, and if it makes sense, you never know. You may see a 5.45 mag. No promises. I've got a LOT of 7n6 that needs shooting, though.
Right now, with mag and good rifle availability what it is, the 74 is a hard pill to grab on to if you're not already into it. In the days of $9.95 circle 10 mags and 8 cents/round 7n6, it was a no-brainer.
The 7.62 mags are currently undergoing one last change to get the endurance test performance where it needs to be, and perhaps some fitment adjustments pending some incoming data points.
5.45 is a sticky wicket. Surplus mags are no longer a cost-effective reality, but the overall numbers on 5.45 guns is very small compared to 7.62. We're looking at the numbers, and if it makes sense, you never know. You may see a 5.45 mag. No promises. I've got a LOT of 7n6 that needs shooting, though.
Right now, with mag and good rifle availability what it is, the 74 is a hard pill to grab on to if you're not already into it. In the days of $9.95 circle 10 mags and 8 cents/round 7n6, it was a no-brainer.
Another one of the big reasons I chose the 7.62 over the 5.45 is because I knew Magpul was getting into it.
PatrioticDisorder
10-16-13, 17:21
The 7.62 mags are currently undergoing one last change to get the endurance test performance where it needs to be, and perhaps some fitment adjustments pending some incoming data points.
5.45 is a sticky wicket. Surplus mags are no longer a cost-effective reality, but the overall numbers on 5.45 guns is very small compared to 7.62. We're looking at the numbers, and if it makes sense, you never know. You may see a 5.45 mag. No promises. I've got a LOT of 7n6 that needs shooting, though.
Right now, with mag and good rifle availability what it is, the 74 is a hard pill to grab on to if you're not already into it. In the days of $9.95 circle 10 mags and 8 cents/round 7n6, it was a no-brainer.
Thank you for the response, I guess I'll be keeping my fingers crossed but not holding my breathe.
morbidbattlecry
10-16-13, 19:15
Its kinda crazy the price of some 5.45 mags right now.
michaelkih
10-16-13, 19:19
Very nice! Enjoy the AK!
Thank you for the response, I guess I'll be keeping my fingers crossed but not holding my breathe.
I'm there with ya
Its kinda crazy the price of some 5.45 mags right now.
You can find them for a decent price. 17.99 at rguns, and 24.99 at classic firearms. When I first got my rifle all I was seeing was $49.99 on them all. It's calming down.
Very nice! Enjoy the AK!
Thanks, and I will. :D
Love 74s. Thankfully I got in on the Bulgarian kits back in 2007 and have several built on Nodak receivers.
http://imageshack.us/a/img444/6522/p1003773af7.jpg
I also snapped up a few East German 74 magazines back when they were $5 a mag at CDNN. Wish I had bought a LOT more.
Who knew. G3 mags are still $5 and I grabbed hundreds of those. 74 and FAL mags were the move.
You can make 74's fit any lifestyle. ;)
http://imageshack.com/a/img441/1533/dsc9015g.jpg
I didn't know whether to go poly or triangle side folder and finally decided on the poly. I could get a better cheek weld on it over the triangle. Yet I do like the look of a triangle stock.:)
Love 74s. Thankfully I got in on the Bulgarian kits back in 2007 and have several built on Nodak receivers.
http://imageshack.us/a/img444/6522/p1003773af7.jpg
I also snapped up a few East German 74 magazines back when they were $5 a mag at CDNN. Wish I had bought a LOT more.
Who knew. G3 mags are still $5 and I grabbed hundreds of those. 74 and FAL mags were the move.
A railed AK74 would draw more to the koolAid. :cool:
You can make 74's fit any lifestyle. ;)
http://imageshack.com/a/img441/1533/dsc9015g.jpg
I loved my '74... But in the end I just don't see the viability of the round longterm.
Djstorm100
10-17-13, 12:26
Thoughts on this one? Plan to refinish or has kvar stocks.
http://www.classicfirearms.com/ak74riflewuspartsw1magonlycodeb
I loved my '74... But in the end I just don't see the viability of the round longterm.
Why not? Hornady makes it.
PatrioticDisorder
10-17-13, 14:04
Thoughts on this one? Plan to refinish or has kvar stocks.
http://www.classicfirearms.com/ak74riflewuspartsw1magonlycodeb
The consensus seems to be if you're on a budget then it's probably the best bang for your buck, but the SGL-31 seems to be the gold standard and not many decent options in between. Unfortunately SGL-31s are now running 1,300ish and at that price, many who're willing to spend that on a 74 may as spend a few hundred more and buy a Kreb's, the KV-13 will feature a sweet keymod handguard, improved trigger, mag release, built on a VEPR (general consensus is they're even higher quality than Saiga), really lots of small upgrades that make that rifle a masterpiece. I'm strongly considering saving up for one (maybe in each caliber) myself.
As SPQR476 already explained, the 74 doesn't make as much sense financially as it once did. I still think it could be a pretty decent platform. The round seems to penetrate barriers well and do a number on soft targets at the same time, all with relatively cheap ammunition, which to me is where the interest in the platform lies.
Look at the nastiness of this round, every single test I've seen of the round shows it starts to tumble just a few inches in, which would make for a NASTY wound channel. Look how it exits sideways!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oq3ZEZ7YFw
And in this video, Royal Tiger is used (which also has been shown to tumble as effectively as 7n6), very unscientific but it penetrated when other rounds didn't. It all has to do with bullet construction, the round doesn't frag like 5.56, so it penetrates but flattens and tumbles causing a mess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=547BKysByqM
morbidbattlecry
10-17-13, 15:17
Thoughts on this one? Plan to refinish or has kvar stocks.
http://www.classicfirearms.com/ak74riflewuspartsw1magonlycodeb
That's what a lot of people are picking up right now. And i've heard some pretty good things. I also picked one up myself and am pretty happy with it. Although i payed the extra 50 bucks for a nicer stock. which is dumb because i just ordered a kvar set. But whatever. I only had one major problem with it. For whatever reason the magazine release lever was pinching the locking tab on the back of all my mags i bought. Causing it to be almost impossible to get the magazine out doing it the way i like. So i had a dremel a bit off the top of the lever and everything is kosher now. Also the rear stock has about a 3mm gap between it and the lower part of the receiver. Hence the other reason for getting a kvar stock set.
Don't take that as what you will get though. Most of all the reviews of that particular gun have been very positive. And i would get another one if i could.
Something to keep in mind as well. I feel the Gunkote finish the put on is better suited to hold up against corrosive ammo. Then like say the finish that is on the SGL series of rifles.
The AK-74 is my favorite platform. It's not for everybody, though. Most of the reason I like them is because you can really make it your own. I like to build them. It's my most beloved hobby.
They're not as accurate as AR's, not as modular, it's harder to switch barrels and optics, and there are some other very real limitations to them. BUT, I can't imagine a rifle I'd rather have under horrid conditions. Frozen fingers, exhausted, injured, filthy, and / or terrified? The AK shines in those situations. Will I ever be faced with that? Most likely never! But, ya' never know.
plouffedaddy
10-17-13, 19:00
Thoughts on this one? Plan to refinish or has kvar stocks.
http://www.classicfirearms.com/ak74riflewuspartsw1magonlycodeb
Here's my WW74 HD Video Review (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nf54SR4Utw)
As I stated above; the WW74 is a great rifle for the money. They occasionally have an issue with their gunkote finish getting into the chamber (I really don't know why they don't plug it better :confused:) but they have great CS and will fix it regardless of the issue.
http://imageshack.us/a/img163/7862/986f.png
Why not? Hornady makes it.
In theory yes, but my understanding is they haven't done a run for a while... Besides, I don't feel comfortable putting all my eggs in one basket. Hornady could decide tomorrow that the profit margin isn't there and stop making it.
In theory yes, but my understanding is they haven't done a run for a while... Besides, I don't feel comfortable putting all my eggs in one basket. Hornady could decide tomorrow that the profit margin isn't there and stop making it.
Nah. Midway sells it as fast as Hornady can make it. They even put a two box limit on purchases. Picked up two yesterday. :)
In theory yes, but my understanding is they haven't done a run for a while... Besides, I don't feel comfortable putting all my eggs in one basket. Hornady could decide tomorrow that the profit margin isn't there and stop making it.
Just so you understand, I'm not fully dismissing your point. It is quite valid, any owner of a Japanese WWII firearm understands it even if Norma and Old Western Scroungers produce those calibers from time to time.
But I think 7.62 and 5.45 are well represented enough by US gun owners that it will remain available.
I remember when SGL21s were briefly $400 around 2007 or so. God how I wish I had the money to have bought 20 of them.
I knew what was coming and managed to get my SGL 21-71 right at about $749.
I knew Arsenal was crazy expensive and they were dropping their prices to bring in customers.
I knew they'd be back up to $1,000 pretty dang fast.
When I had decided to get one, I had saved, it was like $649. By the time a guy working part time in college could afford it, it was $749. Had just jumped from $699.
I had limited interest in an AK, but those prices pulled me in. I won't sell it as I'll probably never see an NIB Arsenal SGL21 for that price again.
ETA: The reason I didn't jump on 5.45 is I didn't want that caliber, I had just finished an BCM Midlength AR. I also liked how 7.62x39 performed. It brought something to the table that the 5.45 didn't, deeper penetration.
Also 5.45 was similar enough to 5.56, I wanted an AK. I figured 5.45 would be expensive one day and I didn't want $1,000+ in a gun, mags and accessories when bullets for it relied on standard production.
I'm happy.
ETA 2: That being said, I've never competed nearly as well with an AK on the clock, etc. but it is the fun best gun I own to shoot. I'd say buy one and shoot it, perhaps consider what I alluded to as well. Do you want a 74 when ammo goes to mid $.20's eventually?
Stockpile ammo people :D
I think the 74's are becoming popular enough, 5.45 will stick around. When 7N6 disappears, there will be a void and somebody will fill it. It's money to be made.
If ammo goes into the mid .20's, I'd still buy it. I haven't seen mil spec 5.56 dip below .50, and we probably won't, not for a while.......maybe never. It's the reason I sold the BCM.
Stockpile ammo people :D
I think the 74's are becoming popular enough, 5.45 will stick around. When 7N6 disappears, there will be a void and somebody will fill it. It's money to be made.
If ammo goes into the mid .20's, I'd still buy it. I haven't seen mil spec 5.56 dip below .50, and we probably won't, not for a while.......maybe never. It's the reason I sold the BCM.
193 can be found without too much trouble for $0.40. PSA had 855 for $450 a case a week or two ago. Far from 7n6, but its definitely out there below $0.50 per round.
193 can be found without too much trouble for $.40 and below. PSA had 855 for $450 a case a week or two ago. Far from 7n6, but its definitely out there below $.50 per round.
In stock? Now? If I wanted it?
My 7N6 is in stock right now and I could purchase 10 cases if I wanted to.
In stock? Now? If I wanted it?
My 7N6 is in stock right now and I could purchase 10 cases if I wanted to.
Mostly, yeah.
PSA 855 (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ammunition/rifle-ammunition/223-5-56/lake-city-m855-5-56x45-1000rd-bulk-package.html)
Free shipping this weekend too. Again, not trying to disagree because obviously 7n6 is way cheaper and more available right now, but just saying that it is out there and getting better. Many Walmart's have cases or 150rd boxes for about .45 a round too.
PSA does have 7n6 in stock with free shipping also though.
Mostly, yeah.
PSA 855 (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ammunition/rifle-ammunition/223-5-56/lake-city-m855-5-56x45-1000rd-bulk-package.html)
Free shipping this weekend too. Again, not trying to disagree because obviously 7n6 is way cheaper and more available right now, but just saying that it is out there and getting better. Many Walmart's have cases or 150rd boxes for about .45 a round too.
PSA does have 7n6 in stock with free shipping also though.
Well that's good.
I'm glad to see it coming down.
Well that's good.
I'm glad to see it coming down.
Slowly. There's no denying the value of a 74 though.
Just so you understand, I'm not fully dismissing your point. It is quite valid, any owner of a Japanese WWII firearm understands it even if Norma and Old Western Scroungers produce those calibers from time to time.
But I think 7.62 and 5.45 are well represented enough by US gun owners that it will remain available.
I think 7.62x39 is and it's why I kept my '47... 5.45 I'm not so sure. If I'm proven wrong I'll be one of the first in line to buy a new '74.
I gotta admit, if the AMD65 had been 5.45 I wouldn't have gone 7.62.
Plain-Jane Saiga with Polish sling and Bulgarian bayonet. Kind of a Warsaw Pact reunion :p
http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss158/5757_photos/003_zps32e3f7ef.jpg (http://s571.photobucket.com/user/5757_photos/media/003_zps32e3f7ef.jpg.html)
The way I'm seeing it, there isn't a huge demand for commercial 5.45x39 yet because there is so much mil surp still circulating.
Give it a while.
Nice, I like it.
Plain-Jane Saiga with Polish sling and Bulgarian bayonet. Kind of a Warsaw Pact reunion :p
http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss158/5757_photos/003_zps32e3f7ef.jpg (http://s571.photobucket.com/user/5757_photos/media/003_zps32e3f7ef.jpg.html)
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y366/spqr476/AK/image.jpeg
Ok, now if the damn AK sellers would get their heads together, and get to the point where EVERY AK churned out was like this one.... I'd be all over them. :drools:
Once upon a time I contemplated getting an AK variant as a "fun gun". Now I'm too invested in the AR platform, and to poor to re-invest in a seperate caliber.
Ah well....
As far as ammo for 5.56 "coming down" or being a "good deal" at .40+ cents a round.... Still unsat! It was .30 last year.... the demand just means that the dealers have wised up to the fact it can be sold +100 bucks a case and people will still suck it up... >:(
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/29/adyvyny6.jpg
She still runnin!
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morbidbattlecry
11-29-13, 19:15
Rmiller's set up inspired me. WW74 with Kvar furniture.
http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx14/Morbidbattlecry/2013-11-29_19-17-13_382_zps3b6ef470.jpg (http://s737.photobucket.com/user/Morbidbattlecry/media/2013-11-29_19-17-13_382_zps3b6ef470.jpg.html)
Bulgy home build
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/DSCN4384.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/DSCN4377.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/DSCN4380.jpg
Rmiller's set up inspired me. WW74 with Kvar furniture.
http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx14/Morbidbattlecry/2013-11-29_19-17-13_382_zps3b6ef470.jpg (http://s737.photobucket.com/user/Morbidbattlecry/media/2013-11-29_19-17-13_382_zps3b6ef470.jpg.html)
Lookin good. About the exact same one I talked my good friend into buying.
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Djstorm100
11-29-13, 20:49
Lookin good. About the exact same one I talked my good friend into buying.
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I had and many others did of their WW failing due to receivers being shit.
Bulgy home build
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/DSCN4384.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/DSCN4377.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/DSCN4380.jpg
Dude!! Is that Mt. Ammo?
One conclusion. I NEED MORE AMMO.
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I had and many others did of their WW failing due to receivers being shit.
Haven't heard of this?!
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Djstorm100
11-29-13, 21:02
Haven't heard of this?!
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Here is the thread section, just search it http://www.akfiles.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=9 they were great but went to their own receivers vs Spuds and now are garbage.
morbidbattlecry
11-29-13, 21:39
Haven't heard of this?!
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It's sorta true. Build quality has gone down a little bit. I've run mine had only one malfunction on mine. And it was one of those malfunctions any AK can have. Build issues where small. 1. The magazine release lever was pinching the mags when i tried to use it. 30 seconds with the dremel fixed that. The other is some now the rear rivets for the rear trunion is a bit to high or low. Whatever it was there was a 2-3 mm gap where the rear of the receiver and the butt stock meet on the bottom. I have tried fixing it but no luck i had to end up shimming it a little and there is a still a gap. But at least it is uniform.
Here is the thread section, just search it http://www.akfiles.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=9 they were great but went to their own receivers vs Spuds and now are garbage.
Hmm. That's good to know. My friends has ran 100% and hasn't had an issue with cosmetics. Not a concern to me as I do not own one, but I will not be so quick to recommend it to others. Thanks for sharing.
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Dude!! Is that Mt. Ammo?
One conclusion. I NEED MORE AMMO.
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Pulled out of the safe for photo op. 545 has kept me shooting in these lean times. Put 300 rounds downrange today, and this rifle will shoot with my 6920 any day of the week...
Charlie Don't Surf
11-30-13, 19:39
Hmm. That's good to know. My friends has ran 100% and hasn't had an issue with cosmetics. Not a concern to me as I do not own one, but I will not be so quick to recommend it to others. Thanks for sharing.Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
I've sent 400rds through my new WW, zero issues so far. But as far as the receiver being right I cannot comment, as its my only AK.
I would also like to try the AK74 Koolaid flavor
I'm still quite new to AK's, having only owned 2. A Draco 12.5" Pistol, and a WASR10/63 that was immediately sold once I realized my mistake :no:
Still own the Draco for now, so I've been itching at another AKM rifle, and the 74's seem to be very attractive with cheap surplus ammo.
The 2 choices I'm looking at is a Saiga74 $699
http://www.jgsales.com/saiga-ak-style-rifle,-5.45x39,-black-synthetic-stock,-new.-p-63104.html
or CAI for $569 (also from JGsales).
I'm sure most of you AK folks would advice to go with the Saiga74; although I don't like the front handguard design of the Saiga's, its something I can get over or modify later on. Budget is somewhat restrictive, but I can make it happen if I play it frugal during the holidays.
Please advice and help out a future 74 owner :cool:
plouffedaddy
12-02-13, 07:19
You are correct that most will say Saiga. It's got the original CHF CL Russian barrel and original receiver. That particular version is pretty easy to convert over should you choose to do so down the road.
Likely the CAI would be just fine too but if you plan on putting a lot of rounds through the rifle then the Saiga is the way to go of those two choices
I would also like to try the AK74 Koolaid flavor
I'm still quite new to AK's, having only owned 2. A Draco 12.5" Pistol, and a WASR10/63 that was immediately sold once I realized my mistake :no:
Still own the Draco for now, so I've been itching at another AKM rifle, and the 74's seem to be very attractive with cheap surplus ammo.
The 2 choices I'm looking at is a Saiga74 $699
http://www.jgsales.com/saiga-ak-style-rifle,-5.45x39,-black-synthetic-stock,-new.-p-63104.html
or CAI for $569 (also from JGsales).
I'm sure most of you AK folks would advice to go with the Saiga74; although I don't like the front handguard design of the Saiga's, its something I can get over or modify later on. Budget is somewhat restrictive, but I can make it happen if I play it frugal during the holidays.
Please advice and help out a future 74 owner :cool:
I will say go Saiga. Mainly because you are getting a good cold hammer forged and chrome lined barrel. Convert right away or slowly convert as you go.
The other option is to pick up on a used arsenal or red jacket build.
I have an older RJ build from a Bulgarian Parts kit and it just as every bit nice as arsenals I've handed. I couldn't beat the price. I ended up with a poly side folder for the price of a fixed stock arsenal. It has a CHF and CL barrel as well. It's as accurate as it is reliable. Not one malfunction to date.
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Cool, its good to hear the Saiga74 is Chrome-lined and CHF which will be the best in the long run.
What do you guys mean to "convert" it? I thought The model on the link I posted is already converted. The unconverted Sporter models can be had for a little less under $500 ($469 new I think).
How much does it cost to get a gunsmith to convert it for me? Is the $200 savings for the un-converted enough to get it converted?
I would prefer someone who knows what they're doing and has experience to do it and have it professionally done, instead of me chopping it/converting myself. My roomate bought an unconverted Saiga12 and he is doing the conversion himself (cutting the bottom of receiver to move over the trigger group, etc) but it seems it needs a bit more know-how and finesse to do it yourself. I don't mind paying a gunsmith to do the conversion if its less than $200 to do it.
Thanks again.
Cool, its good to hear the Saiga74 is Chrome-lined and CHF which will be the best in the long run.
What do you guys mean to "convert" it? I thought The model on the link I posted is already converted. The unconverted Sporter models can be had for a little less under $500 ($469 new I think).
How much does it cost to get a gunsmith to convert it for me? Is the $200 savings for the un-converted enough to get it converted?
I would prefer someone who knows what they're doing and has experience to do it and have it professionally done, instead of me chopping it/converting myself. My roomate bought an unconverted Saiga12 and he is doing the conversion himself (cutting the bottom of receiver to move over the trigger group, etc) but it seems it needs a bit more know-how and finesse to do it yourself. I don't mind paying a gunsmith to do the conversion if its less than $200 to do it.
Thanks again.
Oh. When I first saw Saiga I thought sporter. The fore end can still be converted to a regular ak setup if you'd like. Either way its a good deal.
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How hard is it to convert a saiga handguard to an AK style? Any special tools? I was going to build on a NDS receiver but I haven't bought a parts kit or tools yet
How hard is it to convert a saiga handguard to an AK style? Any special tools? I was going to build on a NDS receiver but I haven't bought a parts kit or tools yet
You'll have to press the front sight post off, and gas block. Install the lower handguard retainer and reinstall. If you want to add a FSB with threads so you can install it that's the time to do it. Plus the cost of arsenal or wood handguards.
For the cost and time I would just throw on a keymod rail made for partially converted saiga rifles:
http://www.krebscustom.com/products/79/Krebs-Custom-UFM-Keymod-System-for-Saiga-Rifles
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Awesome. I've got a press already. Looks like I'll be ordering a Saiga
Awesome. I've got a press already. Looks like I'll be ordering a Saiga
Its a good buy IMO.
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Boys, meet SEXUAL CHOCOLATE:D
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s424/Rmillerm4/1DD8C111-4F64-44E7-841E-BCEE9EB57077_zpsoljexggq.jpg
I knew it wouldn't be long before the Rustoleum/Krylon bug bit me again. It looks pretty damn good.
Blends in well during the winter months:
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s424/Rmillerm4/A5333CBF-390D-4AF9-903D-A47CD6AD7FA8_zpsnpxyo1wk.jpg
AKS74-U koolaid:
http://www.k-var.com/shop/SLR104-51.html
http://www.k-var.com/shop/images/ads/emails/new-arrivals-Nback/slr104/slr104anim.gif
AKS74-U koolaid:
http://www.k-var.com/shop/SLR104-51.html
http://www.k-var.com/shop/images/ads/emails/new-arrivals-Nback/slr104/slr104anim.gif
**opens wallet, counts $10, checks bank account....... shit! shit! shit!***
plouffedaddy
12-23-13, 19:22
**opens wallet, counts $10, checks bank account....... shit! shit! shit!***
I'd hold off for now. The twist rate may not be compatible with a 8.5'' barrel.
I'd agree. Let others get it and she how it does. However I'm not sure how much difference .7 of a twist would make. Isn't the original krink 6.3/1 twist?
I ordered one but I think I'm going to cancel it. K-var listed it as having a 1 in 7" twist originally, then some time today they changed it to say 1 in 7.87". If you look at calculations for stability factor, it would seem that it isn't going reliably stabilize. But, the same calculation with a higher velocity for 16.5" barrels isn't much better. So...who knows? I don't really want to go to the trouble to SBR one just to find out it keyholes.
Sold the RJ build and bought one of the Arsenal slr104fr's. Still loving the 5.45x39 cartridge.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s424/Rmillerm4/20140326_1742372_zpsqbwicuet.jpg
KalashniKEV
03-28-14, 09:21
I'm shooting a lot of 5.45 myself these days. Looking down the line, I'm not the only one.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/Rifles/IMAG0567_zpslkcq58ov.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/Kalashnikev/media/Rifles/IMAG0567_zpslkcq58ov.jpg.html)
I really don't think there's any question as to whether it will ever dry up or go extinct- it's just far too popular.
I'd hold off for now. The twist rate may not be compatible with a 8.5'' barrel.
Twist rate is determined by contact area- we only use weight as a way to judge this.
You don't speed up or slow down twist when you go from a 20" to a 10.3" AR if you're going to be shooting the same ammunition.
Chopping the Krink-type should be GTG, so long as it's done right.
(If given the choice though, I'd always prefer these SBR projects be imported in pistol form)
5.45, specifically 7n6 could become difficult to source soon ...
LINK (http://www.thebangswitch.com/import-ban-on-7n6-5-45x39/)
5.45, specifically 7n6 could become difficult to source soon ...
LINK (http://www.thebangswitch.com/import-ban-on-7n6-5-45x39/)
There's been many of these rumors floating around. Until I see an official letter banning the ammo outright I'll keep on with it. Besides there is plenty of commercial ammo available that is right at and many times still under the price of 5.56x45 and .223 Remington.
Besides that's the same bogus looking letter yeager was posting around. You'd thing the ATF would have something that looked a little more official than something that looks like it could have been typed up on somebody's email composer.
Pariah Carey
03-28-14, 20:03
A couple of respected vendors have confirmed the ATF's action and posted so, and the market has reacted accordingly. There's been a coast to coast buying frenzy of surp 5.45. Neckbeards everywhere are rejoicing.
morbidbattlecry
03-28-14, 20:18
Best part being that 5.45 doesn't fall under the definition of armour piercing in any way. Unless the ATF specifically bans it. Its here to stay.
Leaveammoforme
03-28-14, 20:33
Best part being that 5.45 doesn't fall under the definition of armour piercing in any way. Unless the ATF specifically bans it. Its here to stay.
Huh? How does 7N6 not classify as AP to the ATF with the steel penetrator?
And form 6's aren't being denied. They are not being approved. That means they are stalling. When the forms start being denied I'll believe.
Worst case I buy 25 cent a round commercial ammo.
And form 6's aren't being denied. They are not being approved. That means they are stalling. When the forms start being denied I'll believe.
Worst case I buy 25 cent a round commercial ammo.
I would just make sure you have ample 7N6 now, because if the forms do get denied, it wont matter as the whole country just sold out.
I have enough 7n6 to tide me over. Is 6 tins enough? I don't know. Depends on if this is real or not.
I do know I'm picking up a case of something commercial to shoot and keep my mitts of the 7n6.
I would just make sure you have ample 7N6 now, because if the forms do get denied, it wont matter as the whole country just sold out.
My point is, if it is real, its already over
Isn't that the truth. I don't think I've ever seen 7n6 move so fast.
My point is if it is real its already over
RIP 7N6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zDFXe5kMWQ&list=UU0-nZ9dKQroaCr2MuAXeqyg
I'm failing to see how they can classify it as AP by their own definition. It has lead in the core and is less than .22 cal, regardless if anyone made a pistol or not. M855 equivalent is still imported, and it's darn near the same as 7n6, in construction and intent, at least, and there are lots of 5.56 pistols. If it's being held up, I'm more apt to believe its a country of origin stall, but I suppose arbitrary enforcement of nebulous, nonsensical regulations is in fashion these days.
I'm failing to see how they can classify it as AP by their own definition. It has lead in the core and is less than .22 cal, regardless if anyone made a pistol or not. M855 equivalent is still imported, and it's darn near the same as 7n6, in construction and intent, at least, and there are lots of 5.56 pistols. If it's being held up, I'm more apt to believe its a country of origin stall, but I suppose arbitrary enforcement of nebulous, nonsensical regulations is in fashion these days.
Completely agree. Although they have shown they kind of do what ever they want. I am sure it will be taken to court if true. But IMHO, due to the current geopolitical climate, I don't think a lot of politicians are going to fight for a slightly obscure Russian round.
Hmmmm. Wonder if this is the result of a call to ATF to see what hurt can be put on Russian imports without the word "sanction" being invoked....
morbidbattlecry
03-29-14, 13:54
I'm failing to see how they can classify it as AP by their own definition. It has lead in the core and is less than .22 cal, regardless if anyone made a pistol or not. M855 equivalent is still imported, and it's darn near the same as 7n6, in construction and intent, at least, and there are lots of 5.56 pistols. If it's being held up, I'm more apt to believe its a country of origin stall, but I suppose arbitrary enforcement of nebulous, nonsensical regulations is in fashion these days.
I have heard the phone calls people have made on another forum to the atf saying there is to be no more import of 5.45. M855 is exempt along with M2 Ap. I don't think it qualifies as AP because of bullet construction but i can't find the ruling on the atf site.
morbidbattlecry
03-29-14, 14:01
OK here we go. http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/guides/gun-control-act-definition-ammunition I don't think it meets the definition of armor piercing then again i'm no lawyer. Now it could also be exempt or they could go after it specifically and it be banned. The Attorney General could also say its ok but we know how that would turn out.
So far the death of 7N6 is premature and has largely been spread through some hoaxes. Unless the ATF changes their own rules, or Sheik Obama decides to ban Russian imports by decree, it is not being banned now. This doesn't prevent anyone selling 7N6 using "get it while you can" to generate panic sales.
If imported steel core was classified as "armor piercing", then 7.62X39 and 7.62X54 (and .223/5.56 and 7.62X51, 30-06, etc.) would be axed first, since they are over .22 caliber. Right now, no one is panic selling import M855 on the same premise. The ATF would have to make regulatory changes to reclassify everything under .22 cal as armor piercing as well. It wouldn't be as simple as changing one rule, multiple would have to be changed since the sub .22 cal thing is interwoven in other exemptions as well.
Unless something concrete is published by the ATF, this is same thing as most internet rumors. An ounce of truth in a ton of bullshit.
Leaveammoforme
03-29-14, 23:32
So far the death of 7N6 is premature and has largely been spread through some hoaxes. Unless the ATF changes their own rules, or Sheik Obama decides to ban Russian imports by decree, it is not being banned now. This doesn't prevent anyone selling 7N6 using "get it while you can" to generate panic sales.
If imported steel core was classified as "armor piercing", then 7.62X39 and 7.62X54 (and .223/5.56 and 7.62X51, 30-06, etc.) would be axed first, since they are over .22 caliber. Right now, no one is panic selling import M855 on the same premise. The ATF would have to make regulatory changes to reclassify everything under .22 cal as armor piercing as well. It wouldn't be as simple as changing one rule, multiple would have to be changed since the sub .22 cal thing is interwoven in other exemptions as well.
Unless something concrete is published by the ATF, this is same thing as most internet rumors. An ounce of truth in a ton of bullshit.
Armor piercing for rifle= legal
Armor piercing for handgun= illegal
855 ss109 has an exemption from the ATF
Handguns made in rifle calibers get that rifles AP/penetrator ammo status changed to illegal
Yes, the rumor mill is partially fueled by a fake letter from the ATF that claims that a pistol in 5.45 is now available and that 7N6 is now banned due to being reclassified as AP. This letter is a fake that was published by James Yeager or some other knucklehead, but it is being used as some justification for the panic. There have been AK74SU clones sold as pistols for years by many builders, yet there has been no classification as AP until now? Something is fishy.
The real threat is sanctions or Obama pulling a Clinton and arbitrarily banning Russian imports of firearms and ammo. Nothing has been published yet. Then again, the ATF and the admin in general seem to make their own rules so it really doesn't matter, that is why this is easily believable. Considering the marketing tactics of some vendors (cough, cough, Cheaper Than Dirt), I wouldn't be surprised if this is just another marketing ploy. A quick Google search found it still available and "in stock" in some places.
Leaveammoforme
03-30-14, 00:06
Yes, the rumor mill is partially fueled by a fake letter from the ATF that claims that a pistol in 5.45 is now available and that 7N6 is now banned due to being reclassified as AP. This letter is a fake that was published by James Yeager or some other knucklehead, but it is being used as some justification for the panic. There have been AK74SU clones sold as pistols for years by many builders, yet there has been no classification as AP until now? Something is fishy.
The real threat is sanctions or Obama pulling a Clinton and arbitrarily banning Russian imports of firearms and ammo. Nothing has been published yet. Then again, the ATF and the admin in general seem to make their own rules so it really doesn't matter, that is why this is easily believable. Considering the marketing tactics of some vendors (cough, cough, Cheaper Than Dirt), I wouldn't be surprised if this is just another marketing ploy. A quick Google search found it still available and "in stock" in some places.
I agree that the timing of this is fishy and that there are people out there that would profit from a new panic. But, it would not surprise me one bit if it's legit. It's a shame that respectable LGS's have closed down while places like CTD that supply the mall ninjas prosper.
All the speculation doesn’t matter. If it’s all BS that’s awesome and we will wait till another boat comes in with more 7N6 and life will be good at 15 cents a round. But the one thing we all should have learned from the unpleasantries of late 2012 and 2013 is if you hear whispers or you sense something coming and you are in need of that product, you need to buy. Buy it now when the market has not responded vs waiting 24-48 hours and watching everything sell out.
All the people saying this is a hoax, that’s fine and it very well may be but you better be squared away and you may also be doing a disservice to those that should have acted but listened to the naysayers and held off.
USAC a big importer of 5.45 just posted this up on their site - http://www.usacsales.com/index.php?route=information/news/news&news_id=14
***IMPORT BAN: 5.45x39 SURPLUS***
Unfortunately the rumors are true, the ATF has banned any further importation of Surplus 5.45X39mm ammunition in to the United States. Please do not contact us with questions regarding the ban, all the information we currently have is posted in this article. We will update is as soon as we know any more information.
All surplus 5.45x39mm contains a steel core of varying hardness depending on its year of production. Although this ammunition does not reach the standards to be classified as "Amor Piercing" or "AP", no ammunition may be importable with a steel core if there is an available handgun to be purchased by the civilian market that will fire that round.
It appears that someone created a 5.45x39mm Pistol, therefore the ATF has ruled that no further importation of this ammunition shall be approved which contains a steel core. All new production of this ammunition does NOT contain a steel core and therefore will continue to be produced and or imported and sold in the United States. This is the same scenario which occurred with the Surplus 7.62x39 many years ago when the ATF banned the import of that round as well.
All current stock of 5.45x39mm, including private collections can still be sold, traded and used in your weapons. The ban is strictly on the importation of this round.
Most companies, including ourselves sold out very quickly yesterday (3/29/2014) when this news became available. There are currently a few websites on the internet that continue to have inventory.
We are currently in negotiations to procure more of this product which currently resides in the United States. We will keep you posted if we are successful at this.
Mauser KAR98K
03-30-14, 08:30
This is great. One of the big reasons why I went to 7n6 and the 74 was because it was a very cheap alternative to shooting over 5.56 in this current ammo situation. It hurts worse since I don't have any income at the moment to have at least bought two cans, let alone two crates. Guess I am going to have to treasure what was my .15 a round of what I have left.
I hate the BATF.
Anything we can do?
I haven't read the entire thread, so this may have been addressed. I have been shooting 5.45 since 1998, and have found it cheap, and plentiful, even the commercial stuff such as Wolf, Red Army, etc. Now with this ban, the cost of shooting 5.45 will increase, as even the commercial, non-steel core will see price increases due to demand.
Does anyone know if there are reloading components available for this round yet? I have dealt with the increased cost of 5.56/.223 by reloading for it, and bringing my cost per round to an acceptable level. I don't think it will be that easy for 5.45.
Mauser KAR98K
03-30-14, 09:01
I haven't read the entire thread, so this may have been addressed. I have been shooting 5.45 since 1998, and have found it cheap, and plentiful, even the commercial stuff such as Wolf, Red Army, etc. Now with this ban, the cost of shooting 5.45 will increase, as even the commercial, non-steel core will see price increases due to demand.
Does anyone know if there are reloading components available for this round yet? I have dealt with the increased cost of 5.56/.223 by reloading for it, and bringing my cost per round to an acceptable level. I don't think it will be that easy for 5.45.
There is a way, but it ain't cheap and is very time consuming. Don't expect domestic manufactures to pump up the volume to help demand. The round is cheap for a reason. The ammo market is strained as it is and this did not help it. I hope JBI goes out of business.
I haven't read the entire thread, so this may have been addressed. I have been shooting 5.45 since 1998, and have found it cheap, and plentiful, even the commercial stuff such as Wolf, Red Army, etc. Now with this ban, the cost of shooting 5.45 will increase, as even the commercial, non-steel core will see price increases due to demand.
Does anyone know if there are reloading components available for this round yet? I have dealt with the increased cost of 5.56/.223 by reloading for it, and bringing my cost per round to an acceptable level. I don't think it will be that easy for 5.45.
RCBS makes a set of dies - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/527524/rcbs-2-die-set-545x39mm-russian
I think the issue will be finding or resizing brass
Ouroborous
03-30-14, 15:54
RCBS makes a set of dies - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/527524/rcbs-2-die-set-545x39mm-russian
I think the issue will be finding or resizing brass
Never even heard of brass cased 5.45. How does one go about
Resizing for this?
Would be nice if Hornady picked up the ball on this one and started offering components--they already make steel cased 5.45.
Never even heard of brass cased 5.45. How does one go about
Resizing for this?
Would be nice if Hornady picked up the ball on this one and started offering components--they already make steel cased 5.45.
I guess you use 222 Remington brass and use the RCBS resizing die to get it to spec - http://www.homegunsmith.com/Archive/T5558.html
Moose-Knuckle
03-31-14, 03:46
Would be nice if Hornady picked up the ball on this one and started offering components--they already make steel cased 5.45.
IIRC Hornady imports the steel cases that they use for their Steel Match line as well as their 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 offerings.
RCBS makes a set of dies - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/527524/rcbs-2-die-set-545x39mm-russian
I think the issue will be finding or resizing brass
In the past I have read about reforming other cases (.222, etc) to work for 5.45. My other concern is getting properly sized bullets, but that is probably a lesser concern at this point. We will need to see where the price of commercial 5.45 stabilizes in six months to a year, barring any other manufactured crisis.
I reload for some oddball calibers, and where there is a will there is a way.
In the past I have read about reforming other cases (.222, etc) to work for 5.45. My other concern is getting properly sized bullets, but that is probably a lesser concern at this point. We will need to see where the price of commercial 5.45 stabilizes in six months to a year, barring any other manufactured crisis.
I reload for some oddball calibers, and where there is a will there is a way.
Did you click on the link I provided? Resize .224" bullets in a Lee .221" lube & size die
There is a way, but it ain't cheap and is very time consuming. Don't expect domestic manufactures to pump up the volume to help demand. The round is cheap for a reason. The ammo market is strained as it is and this did not help it. I hope JBI goes out of business.
5.45 pistols have been around for quite a while, I'm not sure why everyone wants to blame JBI Armory. I have no allegiance to them, never heard of them before this came up, but still.
Why isn't everyone threatening robinson armament?
XCR-L Pistol
Calibers:
5.56 Nato (.223 Rem.),
6.8 SPC
7.62x39mm
5.45x39mm
Overall Length: 18"
Folded Length: N/A
Weight Empty: 5.2 lbs
Barrel Lengths: 7.5"
http://xcr.robarm.com/xcrl.php
There's been many of these rumors floating around. Until I see an official letter banning the ammo outright I'll keep on with it. Besides there is plenty of commercial ammo available that is right at and many times still under the price of 5.56x45 and .223 Remington.
Besides that's the same bogus looking letter yeager was posting around. You'd thing the ATF would have something that looked a little more official than something that looks like it could have been typed up on somebody's email composer.
I thought that was a print out of a received email from the atf.
I thought that was a print out of a received email from the atf.
Yes - it was a printout of an email
I thought Copes called them directly? I think it's legit unfortunately.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's legit, go call the ATF import branch yourself, they will tell you plain as day. Won't give you a real reason why but we all know.
KalashniKEV
03-31-14, 08:17
It seems to me like this could be overturned rather easily... if someone put the money into it.
I don't think anyone was making millions off of 7N6 imports who would have the interest to pursue it though... just to bring in the remaining stock...
(17)
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921
the thing is there is no more left to be imported
the thing is there is no more left to be imported
could you elaborate Steve?
That is contradictory to EVERYTHING I've heard/read.
the thing is there is no more left to be imported
alienb1212
04-01-14, 19:02
the thing is there is no more left to be imported
Explain and source information, please.
black22rifle
04-01-14, 19:24
It seems as if the firearms scapegoat of 2014 is going to be JBI.
Leaveammoforme
04-01-14, 19:32
It seems as if the firearms scapegoat of 2014 is going to be JBI.
All 5.45 pistol manufacturers and the customers of said pistols are to blame. Although I believe you to be right about where the finger will be forever pointed.
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=100001588&dir=18|830|851
In stock as of now....
Link isn't working for me?
Leaveammoforme
04-01-14, 22:05
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=100001588&dir=18|830|851
In stock as of now....
Pretty sure that isn't 7N6....
Pretty sure that isn't 7N6....
Yep, roger that....just a link for available ammo to those seeking and Not finding 7n6...
KalashniKEV
04-02-14, 11:59
All 5.45 pistol manufacturers and the customers of said pistols are to blame.
No. Read what I posted above- 7N6 does not fit the definition of "Armor Piercing Ammunition."
Furthermore, because 5.56 pistols are a thing... that exists... then there should be no more M855/SS109 imports from Korea and other places as well.
Leaveammoforme
04-02-14, 13:00
No. Read what I posted above- 7N6 does not fit the definition of "Armor Piercing Ammunition."
Furthermore, because 5.56 pistols are a thing... that exists... then there should be no more M855/SS109 imports from Korea and other places as well.
AHHH! For the 15th time, 855ss109 has an exemption. How does 7N6 not meet criteria? It is a lead bullet with a steel core or rod & can be chambered in a handgun. The handgun being available is the problem.
KalashniKEV
04-02-14, 21:20
AHHH! For the 15th time, 855ss109 has an exemption. How does 7N6 not meet criteria? It is a lead bullet with a steel core or rod & can be chambered in a handgun. The handgun being available is the problem.
Let's go by-the-numbers one more time...
(17)
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921
(17)
(B)
(i) 7N6 is not uniform in composition or "constructed entirely" of any one metal, the core is sometimes described as "mild steel" but I believe it is bi-metal (go nuts with that one).
(ii) 7N6 is smaller than .22 caliber. Jacket weight accounts for more than 25% of total bullet weight.
The pistol is not the problem. They might as well be banning it under the National Invasive Species Act of '96 or some other irrelevant law.
This will not stand up.
Let's go by-the-numbers one more time...
(17)
(B)
(i) 7N6 is not uniform in composition or "constructed entirely" of any one metal, the core is sometimes described as "mild steel" but I believe it is bi-metal (go nuts with that one).
(ii) 7N6 is smaller than .22 caliber. Jacket weight accounts for more than 25% of total bullet weight.
The pistol is not the problem. They might as well be banning it under the National Invasive Species Act of '96 or some other irrelevant law.
This will not stand up.
Agreed. I think the anger at those making a 5.45 pistol is misplaced. The ban is just another attempt at infringement. Forsaking innovation lest we rile up the enemy is voluntarily restricting our rights.
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