5-3-1 vs. 5X5

[wild_wild_wes]

What is the big difference between 5-3-1 and 5X5 weights programs? The core lifts are the same, so why would you chose one over the other?

[Kev]

Well the most significant difference is in the volume. 5/3/1 works great for intermediate to advanced lifters because it allows it allows flexibility in assistance work and avoids but burnout with deload periods. Also, if you're in to metcons, 5/3/1 is a better fit. However, for less than intermediate lifters, the straightforward volume of 5x5 will allow for quicker gains. In sum, both great programs but they do fit different niches.

[Saur]

You're gonna see those same core lifts in a lot of lifting programs.

The difference is in the approach to programming those core lifts. One of the principles behind 531 is using submaximal weights to grain strength. So 531 utilizes a training max that is around 85-90% of your actual max to determine your workset percentages. The TM is supposed to be a weight you can hit after a warmup any day of the week under good or bad conditions. By using a training max you can still have good workouts on your feel-like-crap days, and have great workouts on days you feel awesome. If you feel terrible, you can just hit the prescribed reps (555, 333, or 531) but if you're on fire that day you can shoot for more on the last set, then even move on to Joker sets.

So you don't necessarily just perform the prescribed reps and stop. You try and push the last set for a personal record (not really amrap, though thats cool too). The PR sets are one of the main pillars of the program like the TM. So each week you have a goal to shoot for in each of the core lifts.

[wild_wild_wes]

I've done 5-3-1 in the past, and am pretty familiar with it. I'm doing P90X right now, but once it's finished I intend to go back to it, but I'd like more variability.

Here's what I was thinking: if I skipped the deload period, 5-3-1 runs exactly four weeks. So, I could do it every other month, and alternate another program the other months.

How does weight progression work with 5X5?

[Hizzie]

Gotta be honest Wes. I'm not sure how much progress your gonna see skipping back and forth. What is your main goal?

[wild_wild_wes]

My main goal right now is fat loss. I'm eating below maintenance, so I'm not going to be able to put on a lot of muscle mass...but my weight is going down and my BF% is going down, so I am putting on some muscle.

I wanted to alternate programs because I think variability is desirable. P90X seems to be hitting areas 5-3-1 hasn't. The main lifts are the same, so I wouldn't say I would be "skipping back and forth". Specifically though, I was looking at 5X5 because of the increased number of reps, which is different from 5-3-1. Also, I don't think I'm getting much from the 5-3-1 deload period. But you think that would be a mistake?

[misanthropist]

Are you an intermediate to advanced weightlifter who has stalled after hitting 315 on the squat rack?

If so, 5-3-1 is for you.

If not - and I'm assuming not - then go with a beginner routine.

If you are running a significant caloric deficit, you may find the volume of 5x5 pretty intense. But as long as you don't get greedy on increasing your weights, it's doable. You could also look at Starting Strength, or Lyle MacDonald's basic routines.

The main thing you are doing is just maintaining LBM while you burn fat off, so don't expect to get ultra strong. Just do your lifts, load your muscles, and diet off the fat.

The main thing is to just get on with it.

[Hizzie]

Are you an intermediate to advanced weightlifter who has stalled after hitting 315 on the squat rack?


How much weight you lift has nothing to do with what level of lifter you are. The novice/intermediate/advanced has to do with how simple of programming works for progress.

Simple is good. If linear progression works do it. If you need more advanced programming then use it.

Itn this case it is gonna depend on wether Wes wants to burn calories doing HIIT or volume or prowler ect.

[misanthropist]

Totally true (although I would question how many men that are intermediate to advanced weight lifters can't squat 315)...but the point I am making is that the odds of actually needing the benefits of 5-3-1 seem, in this case, to be fairly remote.



Flawless, sub-moa fit and finish...all day long.

[wild_wild_wes]

So, you're saying 5x5 might work for me, misanthrope?

I plan on doing HIIT 2x per week, (Tu & Th), and cycling on Sat; Mon/Wed/Fri = Lifting, followed by 45 min. brisk walk.

I've been lifting for several years, so I wouldn't call myself a "beginner", but I could be wrong.

[misanthropist]

Potentially, although the volume may be a little intense if doing HIIT and running a serious caloric deficit.

Part of the reason I mentioned a 315 squat is that lots of guys lift weights for years in a fairly ineffective manner, and are still beginners in terms of muscular development. If you squat 3 plates, ok, fair enough. You probably used your years efficiently.

If you squat 150, I don't care if you've been doing it for two decades. You're either a midget or a beginner still.

I would look at any linear program to get up to my current potential, then just lift that while dieting. The main concern is the diet, anyway. The weights are just to keep you from losing LBM. If you're confident you've hit the end of your linear progression with weights, because you now bench noticeably more than you weigh and have to fight to add every pound to your 1RM, stick with 5-3-1.

The main thing if you're overweight is to restrict your food intake. Will 5-3-1 "work"? Sure. Will 5x5 "work"? Sure. You don't really need to worry that much about the lifting program. You need to focus on your diet. Just pick one, do it, and be hungry.

That's my take, anyway. I think a lot of people get caught up in researching pointless details when the real issue is just getting out and doing it. It's very much the same as "is this the perfect gun?" when the real issue is "are you shooting enough?"

[jpeezy]

The goal as I understand of 5/3/1 is a 3 steps forward 1 step back approach to getting stronger. During the first 3 weeks you progress in the 4 main lifts and deload on the fourth week to avoid cns burnout. Your supplemental lifts are meant to make your 4 lifts better with some vanity thrown in. I would consider it not beneficial to lift a cycle of 531 and go towards something else such as p90x and then back. With 531 you are adding weight each month to your 4 lifts with the end goal of getting stronger, not building bigger biceps. It is designed as a long term strategy. Jim Wendler has just come out with some new 531 routines and I have used the "boring but big" scheme with great success. I recommend using this one since it throws in more volume. You should be doing conditioning 3x a week as well to include hills or prowler.

[Hizzie]

Wendler now advocates 3 weeks of 5/3/1, no deload, increase training maxed, another 3 weeks of 5/3/1 then deload after the 2 cycles. No need to deload if using 2 day/week template.

[wild_wild_wes]

I just looked up boring but big. There is no assistance work at all, except for "Let work", correct?

[Hizzie]

BBB is 5 sets of 10 reps using a minimum of 50% of your training max. You can use that days main lift or the opposite lift. So on OHP day you can do 5x10 of OHP or 5x10 of bench depending on how you are running it. Here is a good calculator http://www.blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator. IIRC BBB still has you doing at least one other assistance lift. In "Beyond 5/3/1" Wendler goes into using "joker" sets and "first set last" AMRAP's. He certainly has tweaked the program from the original version. He also goes into detail on several conditioning challenges, size and strength templates. Some with quite a lot of volume.

[jpeezy]

I've used the bbb program with 5x10 of bench and chins after omp, squats on dead day, omp and Kroc rows on bench day, and deads on squat day. I will throw in 3 assistance excercises on upper days which could include some type of curl, dips and face pulls in the 3x8-10 area for each. As far as lower days, especially squatting after heavy deads, I call it a day. The point is after completing your main lift and then 5x10 lifts, the assistance work if any is up to you. It is just a template but I wouldn't get to crazy with tons of assistance work, the goal is to lift more weight every week and so forth.

[wild_wild_wes]

How long does it take to complete a typical BBB session? It seems like it would take quite a while to do all the sets.

[jpeezy]

After warming up I'm done in about an hour. The great thing about it is if your pressed for time or are sucking ass that day you can hit your main lift and 5x10s and get outta there. If your doing traditional 531 you can leave after your main lift but I wouldn't make it an everdday thing. I try to hit conditioning harder to make up for those days. I've devoted more time to foam rolling, band shoulder work, and hip mobility in my warm up so that stage is taking more time now, but the benefits of prehab are worth it especially when your over 30.

[wild_wild_wes]

I tried starting a prehab thread, but no one was interested in responding!

[wild_wild_wes]

Another BBB question please.

Are the main lists done in the same way as classic 5-3-1, i.e., 5-5-5 in Wave 1, 3-3-3 in Wave 2, and 5-3-1 in Wave three, or are they 5-3-1 uniformly across?

[Hizzie]

Yes. Or you can modify it to 3-3-3, 5-5-5 and 5-3-1 for the waves and flip flop the first and second weeks.

[wild_wild_wes]

Another question RE: accessory lifts

If the main lift is a Push, should the accessory be a Pull? Or another Push.

[Hizzie]

Another question RE: accessory lifts

If the main lift is a Push, should the accessory be a Pull? Or another Push.

Wendler's templates use both.

Example:

OHP 5/3/1
BP 5x10@50% TM
Chins 5x10

I add:

Core work
Shoulder prehab