View Full Version : Scout Light Decisions
Nightstalker865
10-14-13, 06:43
I have been very pleased with my mini scout setup. The throw is great and after years of running SF in the military, I have full confidence in them as a brand.
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Army Chief
10-14-13, 07:04
As the 500 lumen Ultra models have begun to roll out, I've been left to wonder how much of a good thing is too much, given that the earlier models were plenty bright, and they already presented certain issues with glare and such against light-colored interior walls.
This is a simple training issue, of course, but at what point are we throwing so much light out that even the usual precautions and techniques are rendered less-effective? I've not done any real work with the newer lights as yet, so the question is fairly academic to me at this point, but neither would I feel particularly under-prepared with a mini-Scout. 200 lumens is certainly enough light for most any job that I can envision myself doing.
AC
JBecker 72
10-14-13, 07:07
I still love the 110 lumen M300A. Now that the 200 lumen model is out, you can get them for very cheap. I scored a new in box M300A a few weeks ago on ebay for $175 shipped.
As the 500 lumen Ultra models have begun to roll out, I've been left to wonder how much of a good thing is too much, given that the earlier models were plenty bright, and they already presented certain issues with glare and such against light-colored interior walls.
This is a simple training issue, of course, but at what point are we throwing so much light out that even the usual precautions and techniques are rendered less-effective? I've not done any real work with the newer lights as yet, so the question is fairly academic to me at this point, but neither would I feel particularly under-prepared with a mini-Scout. 200 lumens is certainly enough light for most any job that I can envision myself doing.
AC
Very good points.
At present, I'm in the MOAR! crowd. My carbine does entry and perimeter duty at work. The volume of light that I'd want for entry work is less than what I need to do what I do outside (to not only ID a target, but verify a threat at 100 yards with low magnification). I don't have access to IR/Lasers at the team or individual level yet. Because my outside role is my primary and more frequent tasking, I'm willing to put up with more lumens than I need inside to be better prepared for the outside role.
If you're looking to buy a light, you have to ask yourself the same question that you would if you were buying a new gun: what are you going to to do with it? What are your standards of performance? Can you get by with less?
If a reputable manufacturer made a scout-light style light with an adjustable high (600 lu long throw) and low (150-200 lu with more spill) that didn't require cycling through the activation switch, it might be a winner. The key is that the high and low are both usable for either short or long range in case the user is on the wrong setting, but optimized for one or the other. Something like the IR Scout (620v?) with a bezel that rotated between visible high, visible low, and maybe IR would be great.
I think there will be a point where we will get to a carbine sized non-negotiable outdoor use only light, but I don't think we're there yet.
I am currently re-evaluating my "needs" after a Shivworks AMIS course which involved a low-light module. All of the popular stuff came out to play. X300U, Fury, Fenix, so on and so forth. Everything from Craig's 200 lumen multi-mode light to my Surefire 6P with an XM-L drop-in driven at nearly 3 amps.
Here is what I took away from it:
-Tints over 5000K tend to blind people more.
-You really can over-whelm night-adjusted vision using a flash-bulb technique. Especially at close quarters. Your target looks as naked as you feel. It's a weird thing, but all they see are a few flash-bulbs and feel the impact of your bullets (simunitions in our case)
-Lights really do attract bullets, especially used incorrectly.
-Momentary on option is the ONLY kind of light to have. It is cool if it has an option for constant on, but a click-through tail cap/clicky sucks. You WILL "click-through" and be left standing there like an idiot with a "shoot here" beacon on the end of your weapon/in your hand, if you have a "click through" type switch like the push-buttons on the Surefires and others.
-I don't care what technique you think you are going to employ, when you are moving through a structure, your light is going to catch furniture and walls and off-sets that are near your vision. When you're stressed out about being shot (even with a simunition), you are not going to turn into Gary Kasparov and somehow tactical your way through a structure without flashing a few walls/items close for comfort, etc. and catching some back-wash. The problem here is ALSO that you can backlight yourself if you throw enough light back.
-Less is more. Used to, I wanted to illuminate the whole damn block. Now...I want to illuminate what I want to see. I don't want to be seen because of backwash from my own light. It's MY tool. Not the bad-guy's tool.
-The M600C and M300B have very "narrow" beams. Yes, they do throw off some spill (the M300B does better, here, I have had multiples of both), but the problem is that the eyes will naturally gravitated toward that 1-3' (depending on distance to object) laser-hot circle of light it throws and you will shift your hard focus and soft-focus to just that one spot, seemingly "ignoring" the spill you got from that "flash" of light. You will use the light more. This is bad. I think that an ideal beam-pattern is similar to the G2X, or Fury, or one of the reflector'ed lights. You are not spotlighting a hog at 700 yards with a tank-light...you are trying to move through a structure without blinding yourself, seeing what is to be seen, and hopefully dazzling that something if you get lucky. The "narrow beam" lights distract the user, result in more/more frequent usage of said light, and provide no advantage in a structure, or anywhere really but rural areas ID'ing a coyote vs. your neighbor's dog. If you want to do that, slap some big cheap something on the rail for that purpose.
-A lot of people who like those "throwy" beams without much spill are used to kill-houses or other stationary-target type environments which allow them to paint/ID a face very easily. Throw live humans into things, and I did not ONCE notice the ultra hot laser-beam of the X300U I also brought giving me any advantage, and I quickly dumped it in favor of my reflector'ed 6P, although it was honestly a bit bright for me with the over-driven XM-L. Lots learned that night.
All of the above is just what little I learned while using a light and having a light used against me while hunting down people in an abandoned mental health hospital in Belle Chase, LA under Craig/Southnarc's instruction. YMMV, and I'm certainly no "operator". However, I did re-think what I needed vs. what I thought I needed after that low-light module.
I guess the simplest way to sum it up is that "Light is like horsepower". Dodge needs a whole lot, but somehow Lotus manages with less...
Knowing what you will be doing is not as important as knowing how to do what you may end up doing.
Thanks guys for the awesome responses. I have the 170 lumen x300 and it is plenty for what I need It for in a handgun application. So for a carbine I think that I would be fine with 200 lumens or so. As I'm sure most here know it definitely has a tight hot spot with a little spill similar to what WS6 said about the scout lights. Has anyone used an ultra model with a diffuser? If that is a viable option for indoor usage I can definitely see giving that some strong consideration. I have heard that the beam is different between the 600C and the mini scout, but that was before the 200 lumen mini came out. I am really leaning towards one of those. If the new mini is practically the same a the 600C than I would probably just go with it.
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The new mini is superior in every way to the M600C. Tint, throw, spill, beam-quality, etc.
FYI, I just took delivery of one in FDE that I don't need. If you want FDE, and don't mind one with about an hour on the battery (I will be doing a review of it, comparing it to the SL-1), then feel free to PM me to discuss further.
Also, yes, I have an X300U with the F04-A. Here is that review:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=139014
I have a x300 on my carbine. With the white walls in my house it will wash my aimpoint out. So its routine to turn my RDS up high each night (unless I don't adjust it during the day). 170 lumens is plenty. But thats my situation. If I was outdoors more I might consider a higher output. Like another member said your use will determine what you need.
Why is momentary so heavily preferred? Can you not click on and click off almost just as fast?
I think it possible to flick the switch as quick as letting go of the momentary on, but in an intense situation( bad guiy breaking in to your house in my case) you fine motor skills will be shot, and just trying to flick a switch on/off might be found to be difficult. Just releasing the pressure on the switch takes less thought and movement. The X300 I use can be toggled on, but I dont practice it, so I dont use it. For me it's a bad habit I dont want to develope.
Why is momentary so heavily preferred? Can you not click on and click off almost just as fast?
Lots going on. You tend to "click through" a clicky and go constant under stress, and it can take a second or two to realize what happened on a "thinking level" and fix the problem. I did it to myself at that AMIS course, and it sucked. Add in confrontation, no-shoots, weapon use and safety, etc. and you really start lagging on "dealing with just your light". Because your first instinct is "DO NOT WANT" and you take your hand away from your light. With momentary only---problem solved. With constant...you must revisit the source of the problem using prevision (hitting that button again) and getting rid of it. It sounds stupid, but under stress, you flub up pretty hard sometimes on stuff like that.
Clicking the switch because of stress sounds like a training issue with your responses to stress. What if you need to keep a threat illuminated and need to use your support hand to key a radio mic, or as a home owner use a phone call to call 911? There are other situations I can think of where I would want to activate my weapon light to constant on as well. I say this from a background of nearly two decades sworn time with a lot of time and training in tactical assignments, as a state certified instructor for academies, and lots of time working with lights. I currently use a 300U 500-lumen on my handgun and a 500-lumen Fury, both with constant on or momentary capability. It could be my eyes, but I'm not blinded inside structures unless I am a foot off the wall. Not something common. But I also need the light to solidly identify threats versus unknown persons at distances even up to 100-150 yards, and not be limited to the 40-50 yards Max that most other lights give.
I also would be careful of people promoting lights they have financial interests in. Of course they're going to advocate any light with more linens than theirs is too much light.
Clicking the switch because of stress sounds like a training issue with your responses to stress. Are you 100% confident that you will never miss what you are shooting at? Why not, if you aren't? I think the point is made. What if you need to keep a threat illuminated and need to use your support hand to key a radio mic, or as a home owner use a phone call to call 911? Then you twist the momentary to constant by rotating the tail-cap 1/2 a turn and rock on. There are other situations I can think of where I would want to activate my weapon light to constant on as well. I say this from a background of nearly two decades sworn time with a lot of time and training in tactical assignments, as a state certified instructor for academies, and lots of time working with lights. I agree, although I don't have your level of experience in the least. I currently use a 300U 500-lumen on my handgun and a 500-lumen Fury, both with constant on or momentary capability. It could be my eyes, but I'm not blinded inside structures unless I am a foot off the wall. Not something common. Blinded, no, I wasn't either, but it certainly does degrade night-vision pretty badly. I had to chill for a few seconds before I could see by the low amount of ambient light coming in windows from the dark amber low-pressure sodium lights outside the building I was clearing. Flash, move, flash, move, and my moving was a lot less effective for the intensity of the flash. YMMV, but I saw no advantage to using a super bright light. Anything over about 200-250 lumens didn't do much for the user, was what I observed. But I also need the light to solidly identify threats versus unknown persons at distances even up to 100-150 yards, and not be limited to the 40-50 yards Max that most other lights give.
Then you have two different need-sets, IMO. A compromise is in order, and you made yours. I can't say I disagree.
I also would be careful of people promoting lights they have financial interests in. Of course they're going to advocate any light with more linens than theirs is too much light.
I agree 100% with the last in blue. I have no financial interest in any of these lights and own everything I have discussed, paid for by myself (except the Fury, and I own a 6P that I can configure to mimic the Fury with one of the half-dozen modules I bought for it, it's a hobby-light that I use for hiking, it did double-duty at AMIS).
I have noticed two kinds of people: Lumen obsessed, and function obsessed.
Pat Rogers seems to be lumen-obsessed. He took the most powerful light Surefire made at the time and had them throw a clicky on it and called it his own. (EAG Fury)
Travis Haley seems to be function obsessed. He took a 125 lumen light, had them get rid of all the other crap on it (some half-dozen modes), and pump it up to current 1 CR123 power-standards at 200 lumens, and slap a momentary-only switch on it. (WML-HSP)
These are just two examples that people will be familiar with. I found it very interesting, myself. Both are instructors, and both conduct shoot-house training---with one exception. Travis Haley conducts 2-way range training using Airsoft/Simunitions, as well as "kill houses".
The two involve vastly different things, IMO, and their choice of light is a reflection of this. In his training courses, Pat Rogers is not concerned so much with rounds headed back his way. Travis Haley is.
It's just something to ponder...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZlVRh0O25M
Notice how they behave in that kill-house? They work as a team. They use bodies + speed +superior firepower/violence of action. These are SWAT/MIL tactics. They are not applicable directly to what I and a lot of others do (home-owner).
Also, please note what I have been saying about the M300A and B / M600C (not Ultra) beam profile. The video illustrates why this kind of beam-profile sucks. I don't know what in the world that shooter was using, though. It looked like a stock incandescent 6P, and THAT! is a friggin laser. I have one and it throws almost as far as an X300U because of how ridiculously tight the beam is, regardless of the double-digit lumen output.
Now observe Travis Haley's take on things:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V78tH6aVpuM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMyLyzgeAi0
Notice how he does things differently? This is geared more toward the home-owner, or the person who doesn't have the option of violently entering a structure with a multi-person team covering all angles of exposure.
Again, thoughts to ponder.
I can tell you this much, during AMIS, I saw people who had shot hundreds of hours worth of training (literally) in "kill-houses" get blown away by people who had never done anything like it before quite simply because they did not have the training scars created by always having a multi-man team on-hand. Former Rangers and current SWAT members burst fully into rooms without reading offsets, without using depth and angles, and got shot to shit by someone using a simple hard-corner or an offset for optimal effect.
The problem is not as simple as "I need a light". I think you hit the nail on the head with your above post...you need a light FOR. People need to define the role, then pick the light. Screw who's name is on the side of it, get what fits YOUR NEEDS. For you, an X300U/M600U might be THE thing. For me, or someone else, it may not be. However, I think the M300B and M600C have very different uses than what most people plan to use them for (home defense). Again, review the Pat Rogers video with the stock 6P. Thankfully the M300B isn't that bad, but the M600C is somewhat close.
I'm not sure what my statement about clicking a tailcap under stress has to do with your accuracy statement. If I miss, or if the threat fails to be incapacitated due to my hits, I continue pulling the trigger until the threat stops. Just like I turn the light off when needed.
I do not like the twist method. I've done that with G2's and Fury's. It is much slower and frequently means I am shifting my grip in ways I don't want to.
Is there a point when you have too many lumens? Sure. But I don't think 500 is that point if you're using a carbine. If you have a weapon with the capability of engaging a threat at over 50 yards, why have a light on it that limits you to using it at less than 50? I have used 60, 120, and 200 lumen lights prior to my 500 lumen. I found that there were too many times that one could not definitively illuminate a person and confirm if they were a threat or not. You could see someone, but are they holding a cell phone or a pistol? Are they pointing at you with a handgun or pointing their index finger? More lumens allow the ability to see that. 200 works better than most, but still not as good as it could be. That why Pat Rogers says what he does about lumens. From the LE background he has, he understands it's not just about seeing the threat-it's about confirming they are one before pulling the trigger. The differences between incan and LED also comes into play, as the flatness of the LED can mean difficulty seeing from my experience. 500 is the level where I can finally have enough light ahead of me to distinguish threat factors.
I think you're drawing too much of conclusions from Pat's video and use of LEO's in his video. Much of what he teaches is not team based, but individual LEO or Partners which is hard to see in a 2 1/2 minute video, and you are drawing some incorrect conclusions based on it. That video is a small snippet from his Shoothouse video, which is a bare summary of that training, and without having that training it can be difficult to use it as a correct reference.
Haley has different frames of reference, and when I first watched those videos when they came out, in my opinion some of his techniques he is discussing are more based on theory rather than practicality. How he promotes blipping the rooms to me runs the risk of missing threats, or people being in the habit of rapidly moving their light to quickly blip the room, that when they do illuminate a threat they will blow past before their brains can process it.
I've talked and trained with various people in the industry regarding lights. You're right about choosing the light that is best for your needs. However, if you're employing a carbine, and choosing a light for the carbine, it would do you good to choose a light that allows you to use the advantages the carbine gives you, rather than one that limits you. If you are giving advice on a carbine light based on only one class you took that dealt only with close-range shooting, you also might be passing on limited info.
I'm not sure what my statement about clicking a tailcap under stress has to do with your accuracy statement. If I miss, or if the threat fails to be incapacitated due to my hits, I continue pulling the trigger until the threat stops. Just like I turn the light off when needed. I meant to say that you didn't miss because of your pistol. You missed because you did something wrong. Not lining up the sights and pulling the trigger---why would you do that? Training issue, probably...See what I mean? It happens...
I do not like the twist method. I've done that with G2's and Fury's. It is much slower and frequently means I am shifting my grip in ways I don't want to. It is slower, you do likely have to adjust your grip a bit. You likely shouldn't be constant-on with a light when this miniscule time difference matters. Then is probably the time to be judicious with it, I would think.
Is there a point when you have too many lumens? Sure. But I don't think 500 is that point if you're using a carbine. If you have a weapon with the capability of engaging a threat at over 50 yards, why have a light on it that limits you to using it at less than 50? I have used 60, 120, and 200 lumen lights prior to my 500 lumen. I found that there were too many times that one could not definitively illuminate a person and confirm if they were a threat or not. You could see someone, but are they holding a cell phone or a pistol? Are they pointing at you with a handgun or pointing their index finger? More lumens allow the ability to see that. 200 works better than most, but still not as good as it could be. That why Pat Rogers says what he does about lumens. From the LE background he has, he understands it's not just about seeing the threat-it's about confirming they are one before pulling the trigger. The differences between incan and LED also comes into play, as the flatness of the LED can mean difficulty seeing from my experience. 500 is the level where I can finally have enough light ahead of me to distinguish threat factors. It depends on the use. You state that you have uses for it outdoors. Totally different than a firearm kept inside the bedroom. Or...a hand-held. I prefer a hand-held for pistol use. Better yet, handheld and weapon-mount.
I think you're drawing too much of conclusions from Pat's video and use of LEO's in his video. Much of what he teaches is not team based, but individual LEO or Partners which is hard to see in a 2 1/2 minute video, and you are drawing some incorrect conclusions based on it. That video is a small snippet from his Shoothouse video, which is a bare summary of that training, and without having that training it can be difficult to use it as a correct reference. I agree, I am just unaware of him doing training on a 2-way range with simunitions or airsoft or anything. Does he?
Haley has different frames of reference, and when I first watched those videos when they came out, in my opinion some of his techniques he is discussing are more based on theory rather than practicality. His techniques are similar to Larry Vickers and Craig Douglas. They seemed sketchy to me, too, until I tried them on live people. They work really well. How he promotes blipping the rooms to me runs the risk of missing threats, or people being in the habit of rapidly moving their light to quickly blip the room, that when they do illuminate a threat they will blow past before their brains can process it.
I've talked and trained with various people in the industry regarding lights. You're right about choosing the light that is best for your needs. However, if you're employing a carbine, and choosing a light for the carbine, it would do you good to choose a light that allows you to use the advantages the carbine gives you, rather than one that limits you. As a home-owner, taking a shot past 50 yards in the dark is getting into a very grey world. As a LEO, I can completely see your need. The advantage a carbine gives me, isn't all distance. If you are giving advice on a carbine light based on only one class you took that dealt only with close-range shooting, you also might be passing on limited info.I'm giving advise based on what I want to defend my home, after trying several things. What you want to take on patrol is (and probably should be) very very different. I agree 100%.
Maybe I should have been more clear. I can completely see your need for 500 lumens and a TIR optic. Your use is not my use. However, I will add that I can slap one of my X300U's on my rifle very fast if going outside. Regardless, I did not mean to imply that my needs and uses should be imposed on you and your needs and uses. They are unique to each other, and you have a system that works for you. Noone can or should try to tell you otherwise.
firerocketjump
10-16-13, 18:59
I run the 500 lumens scout, though it weighs a bit more I like the extra lumens it can dish out.
leibermuster
10-16-13, 23:35
Just get the Mini Scout. If you want more lumens down the road then upgrade later.
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I'm currently trying to decide between the mini-scout and the scout-ultra. I've used the new TLR-HL in doors on white walls. The 630 lumens it produced was not objectionable, but I have found my 160 lumen TLR1 lacking in certain outdoor environments.
If anyone has used a diffuser id like to hear their experiences.
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