View Full Version : Pic of SIG's cool new Sub-Compact
variablebinary
04-30-08, 00:52
Very nice...SIG needed a subcompact...
Take a peek at the catalog. Sadly the 556 is still tragic
http://www.sigsauer.com/CustomerService/CatalogRequest.aspx
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/DonGlock26/P250subc.jpg
I wonder what the selling price will be. I just purchased a H&K P2000SK 9mm LEM last month and wouldve liked to handle this one before making a decision.
http://i31.tinypic.com/sq6muv.png
The trigger guard immediately reminds me of the 239. Looks stumpy but I would be excited for Sig to produce a sub-compact in relative size to a G26 or similar.
TG also reminded me of the 239 but that's where the similarities end, at least for me. The 239 is, IMO, a beautiful pistol; that thing looks sort of odd.
I have the P250c now. This makes me want the full size 9mm conversion ...20 rounds cap.
Sweet!
I don't think I can resist the sub-compact conversion either.
I figure I'll have plenty of time to save up, considering it took them this long just to get the 08 catalog out.
http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/sq6muv.jpg
exitinyourhead
04-30-08, 15:07
Stubby grips suck.
stubby grips + double action only
I don't like that at all. I love Sigs and am enjoying my 239. This pistol just seems all sorts of odd. I'm a little biased, I automatically dislike anything with small grips (especially small grips that you add magazines with grip extensions,) but this pistol just seems like it would be very difficult to be effective with.
Nathan_Bell
04-30-08, 17:04
Stubby grips suck.
Try them with big hands and they become a real handi-cap, not just an inconvenience.
sigmundsauer
04-30-08, 18:07
Although I am sure SIG will follow thru, the pic looks to be a prototype version. Something a little unrefined 'bout it.
I'd still prefer HK's P2000sk in LEM though. As a modular option for the P250, it will be welcome.
Tim
http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/sq6muv.jpg
Yes. The accessory being the slide! :D
Stubby grips suck.
While I agree, the fact of the matter is that Glock sells 26's and 27's by the metric ton. People -- in particular, existing customer agencies -- have been begging SIG to make a G26 or Kahr sized pistol for years.
One thing that surprises me, though, is that this is being released already. A year ago, SIG was committed to waiting on the P250 series until they got the .40 working. Now the medium size gun (in 9x19) has been out for 4-5 months and the small gun (in 9x19) is on its way.
I watched a guy that was well over 6' tall take a stock Glock 26 and win his division at the Florida IDPA state match several years ago. Stubby grips only suck if you don't know how to shoot with them.
My first Glock was a G26 and I got so used to shooting with the pinky finger tucked under the magazine that when I got a G19 I was actually more accurate with the smaller gun because that was what I was used to.
This Sig looks odd as all hell though. They're never going to be able to produce a truly compact pistol because they're always going to have that ridiculously high bore-axis. Combine that with the stubby grip and the DA trigger pull and it will certainly suck worse than other stubby grips for sure.
Sigs are nice guns mechanically, and it's interesting from a design and engineering standpoint to take one apart and see how it works, but that's about the extent of their interest for me. They need to start over from scratch with a totally new design and get that barrel down lower in the firing hand. Sig always gets confused when answering customer demand (hence, the 556) and they obviously thought that when people said "we want a sub-compact version" that what the customers were asking for was a reduced size 229 when all anyone really wanted was a smaller gun that took the same magazines.
sigmundsauer
05-01-08, 09:45
I watched a guy that was well over 6' tall take a stock Glock 26 and win his division at the Florida IDPA state match several years ago. Stubby grips only suck if you don't know how to shoot with them.
My first Glock was a G26 and I got so used to shooting with the pinky finger tucked under the magazine that when I got a G19 I was actually more accurate with the smaller gun because that was what I was used to.
This Sig looks odd as all hell though. They're never going to be able to produce a truly compact pistol because they're always going to have that ridiculously high bore-axis. Combine that with the stubby grip and the DA trigger pull and it will certainly suck worse than other stubby grips for sure.
Sigs are nice guns mechanically, and it's interesting from a design and engineering standpoint to take one apart and see how it works, but that's about the extent of their interest for me. They need to start over from scratch with a totally new design and get that barrel down lower in the firing hand. Sig always gets confused when answering customer demand (hence, the 556) and they obviously thought that when people said "we want a sub-compact version" that what the customers were asking for was a reduced size 229 when all anyone really wanted was a smaller gun that took the same magazines.
Yep, SIG keeps steering wide of what the market is looking for. I imagine that they must think us rather ungrateful, but c'mon the 556 is almost laughable among many of the pimpified offerings of late.
I think the only way SIG is going to get the bore axis measurably lower is to convert to a striker-fired action, which I would certainly like to see. I think SFA has definite advantages in some regards.
I must say that I think the whole bore-axis thing is highly overstated and made into an issue disproportionate to whatever downsides it may have.
I've shot many, many pistols with high and low bore axes and it simply has not been the issue that one would think by just looking at the pistol. I am convinced that those who are well acclimated to low bore axis guns like the Glock have difficulty accepting a higher bore axis in a SIG or an HK because it just doesn't feel right to them. Despite whatever affect it has on muzzle flip, I judge the pistol by how fast its back on target and not the height of the bore. There are other factors more meaningful like slide mass and spring rates that are more influential to recoil control than bore height alone. In my experience P220-series SIGs are lightning fast using a good grip, and certainly not less so than a Glock.
Tim
While I agree, the fact of the matter is that Glock sells 26's and 27's by the metric ton. People -- in particular, existing customer agencies -- have been begging SIG to make a G26 or Kahr sized pistol for years.
I can't account for the vagaries of the unwashed masses OR bureaucratic bodies....other than neither shoot that much usually.
Stubby pistol grips still suck.
Despite whatever affect it has on muzzle flip, I judge the pistol by how fast its back on target and not the height of the bore. There are other factors more meaningful like slide mass and spring rates that are more influential to recoil control than bore height alone.
There's also more to it than what people see. While the slide is higher on a SIG, the point at which the force is delivered from the slide to the frame is pretty much right in line with the web of your hand. So while the higher bore axis plays some role, it's a difference that matters much less than a lot of people seem to think.
I can't account for the vagaries of the unwashed masses OR bureaucratic bodies....other than neither shoot that much usually.
But they buy a whole lot more guns than you & me. That's the problem ... gun companies listen to their large customer base instead of all us experts. :cool:
But they buy a whole lot more guns than you & me. That's the problem ... gun companies listen to their large customer base instead of all us experts. :cool:
And I support their ability to make money off that customer base.
I'm discussing the merits of the short grip design.
I'm discussing the merits of the short grip design.
Well ... it's shorter. :cool:
Like I said, I don't like them either. But plenty of people sacrifice shootability for ease of concealment. I can't begin to tell you how many LEO I've met who carry (their primary) in an ankle holster when doing plainclothes work. :rolleyes:
Stubby grips only suck if you don't know how to shoot with them.
I shoot them just fine thank you very much Rob.
I don't prefer the handling characteristics, be it how I always feel like I don't have enough to grab onto when making a draw at speed or having to do odd contorted tea-cup finger moves that break a substantial portion of my grip on the gun to be able to insert a reload.
sigmundsauer
05-01-08, 15:19
This is one of the reasons why i like HK's P2000 so much. Using the low-profile base plates it conceals extremely well, is just the right size, and I can just manage to get all my fingers on the gun. It truly is the most compact gun that I can carry concealed and fire as well (if not better) than competing full-sized pistols. The SK version is just too short to fill that bill for the reasobs said.
Tim
Nathan_Bell
05-01-08, 15:29
I watched a guy that was well over 6' tall take a stock Glock 26 and win his division at the Florida IDPA state match several years ago. Stubby grips only suck if you don't know how to shoot with them.
I have trouble getting a handle on the small Glocks, as my ring finger is not fully on the grip. This pistol looks like it is even narrower than the Glocks, so I imagine that i would have problems with it.
99% of folks would not have this problem, good for them, but for me a small grip is a handi-cap to me running th pistol well.
http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/sq6muv.jpg
Your hands
Chad
VooDoo6Actual
05-01-08, 16:08
Not for me.
Now I know that I will NOT be wanting one of those for sure.
Stubby/Short Grips SUCK.
ONLY with ext Mags do you even approach a acceptable, decent 360 degree all encompassing grip and even then it's not the same.
I would NEVER trust my life on that weapon platform UNLESS I had to and had NO other option.
YMMV...
sigmundsauer
05-01-08, 17:34
Not for me.
Now I know that I will NOT be wanting one of those for sure.
Stubby/Short Grips SUCK.
ONLY with ext Mags do you even approach a acceptable, decent 360 degree all encompassing grip and even then it's not the same.
I would NEVER trust my life on that weapon platform UNLESS I had to and had NO other option.
YMMV...
True, true. But this is a pistol of compromise and certain convenience. Not ideal but better than being unarmed for sure. And it's distinctly more difficult to carry a second full-size pistol as a back up. For this niche, it is a dead ringer.
Tim
Stubby grips suck.
While I can shoot them ok, I agree. Stubby grips suck. Dont like them. Glock 19 length grip is as small as I like to go.
Shadow1198
05-05-08, 01:41
I don't like stubby grips either. I'm hoping Sig comes out with a SAO or DA/SA trigger for this new "modular" series of guns like the P250. I've handled a P250, and while the DAO trigger really wasn't all that heavy, the reset is pretty much all the way out which sucks. I hate DAO with a passion. I think these guns are a neat concept, the whole modularity thing and all, but depending on what (if any) trigger systems they put out in the future and what accessories/models I'll have to wait and see before I buy one. I'm really waiting to see how the .45acp full size or compact version turns out. It would be nice to finally see a double stack .45acp Sig.
Parabellum9x19mm
05-05-08, 01:49
stubby double stack grips make NO sense. too thick to hide, too short to hold.
my daily carry is a SIG P250C. i was curious about the sub compact versions of the P250, but after seeing this post, I really am no longer interested.
i'm praying the full size .45 P250 is less of a disappointment, because i was hoping that it would be my first non-1911 .45ACP purchase.
as far as everyone hoping a SAO or DA/SA P250 comes out, i really don't think it will ever happen. i'm certainly no engineer, but i dont see how they could incorporate that into the design. the P250's frame sub assembly seems like it could only work with a simple DAO mechanism.
i like the P250's DAO pull tho, its very smooth and feels very light. the reset is very long, but on a defensive pistol the reset isn't a deal breaker. takes some practice to get double taps down, but its definitely doable. i cant rattle off shots as fast as with my Stainless Elite P226 w/ the short reset trigger....but reset on the P250 is short enough for a concealed carry pistol.....at least for me.
olds442tyguy
05-07-08, 13:17
Am I the only one who thinks the P250 is a horrible concept?
It's cool that Sig makes a sub, but like others, I think sub compacts are annoying. And no it has nothing to do with skill, as I can shoot my buddy's Para Warthog with +P's just fine (when it isn't choking), I just don't enjoy it.
Am I the only one who thinks the P250 is a horrible concept?
Define "horrible concept."
It's innovative in the way it allows the end-user to customize the pistol to a specific need. Big, small, wide, thin ... there were at least plans on paper to make finger groove and non-finger groove variants, railed and non-railed variants, etc. SIG uses "modular" every third word when describing the gun, but it's true.
If you were Insight or Surefire, and if the P250 took off in the LE market (a big if), think about what the platform allows. How about a grip frame that has a light and laser built right in, with switches in the most optimal place(s)?
On the other hand, functionally it leaves a lot to be desired. It's typical of a gun that was designed by engineers who ignored input from shooters. (ask me how I know :rolleyes: )
The trigger reset is horrible ... people who are used to .35 splits won't care but anyone with some skill is going to have a hard time getting in the low 20's while maintaining good accuracy. (I'd define "good accuracy" as hitting the top half of an IPSC A-zone at 7yd at speed)
The slide is substantially built up from the original German design. This was done to ensure holster commonality between the 9mm and .40 guns ... but the .40 still isn't ready for the marketplace. Given the very slow sale of the 9mm gun, I'm sure the top brass is faced with the difficult decision of throwing more money at it hoping to land a late bloomer or giving up and going back to the drawing board. It's taken the P250 what, four years of development before it hit the market? Going back to the drawing board won't be an overnight fix.
variablebinary
05-07-08, 19:25
Am I the only one who thinks the P250 is a horrible concept?
I think its a great concept. One of the most innovative ideas to come from any pistol maker in a long time.
One gun and you can accomadate bear paws, to sissy hands to normal mitts.
Lefty friendly
Good size to capacity, to weight ratio
There is a lot to like, but the trigger isnt that great. Reset sucks mostly, and its long on the initial pull. Its a very PC trigger compared to Glock for example
sigmundsauer
05-08-08, 09:54
I think its a great concept. One of the most innovative ideas to come from any pistol maker in a long time.
One gun and you can accomadate bear paws, to sissy hands to normal mitts.
Lefty friendly
Good size to capacity, to weight ratio
There is a lot to like, but the trigger isnt that great. Reset sucks mostly, and its long on the initial pull. Its a very PC trigger compared to Glock for example
The early literature from Germany that advertised the P250 with a short reset excited me a lot. The current DAO rendition took the wind out of my sails. The DA trigger is sweet but that's where it ends for me. I am not convinced that the P250 or the DAK hammer strikes are adequate for anything other than compatibility with ammunition with known primer sensitivity. There are way too many anecdotal reports of light primer strikes (FTF) with each of these systems to give me confidence in them. Prior to the P250 and the DAK light primer strikes were an extreme rarity with DA/SA SIGs. My personal experience with the DAK and shooting/handling the P250 has proven to me that despite what the manufacturer (or SAAMI) deems adequate, there is indeed less striking energy on the P250 and DAK hammer systems.
Otherwise I really like the P250. Ergonomics are great. I'd prefer the original German magazine base plates that were a trifle lower profile.
Modularity has a evolved into a buzz word lately, but it's a good concept and definitely evident in the P250. The value of it is modest as the frame is a rather low cost item; changing the upper receiver for caliber change is just a tick less than having to buy a new pistol altogether. Not sure that's a huge selling point as much as it's advertised.
If SIG manages to figure out a way to engineer a short-reset, and improve striking energy, I will be forced to reconsider them seriously.
Tim
Tim -- FWIW, a buddy of mine just finished the P250 armorer school program, and they were told the hammer & mainspring were recently redesigned. I'm guessing that was in response to the light primer issue. I haven't seen it or played with it myself, so cannot comment on whether it affects trigger pull, etc.
There are probably only a couple dozen people in the U.S. who have fired a German-spec P250. Trust me, you're not missing anything: 10# trigger pull and about as smooth as two pieces of sandpaper rubbing against each other. The reset was shorter (actually, I should say I have no specific recollection of the reset one way or the other) but otherwise the US version is vastly superior in trigger feel.
I think it's going to flop because the modularity won't be as beneficial or economical as SIG wants it to be. Some people will get it for the novelty, some agencies might buy it for the practicality, but my guess is that in 2-3 years we'll see SIG Polymer MkIII come out, and it will be a striker-fired gun. It would actually be fairly easy to turn the P250 into a SFA, allowing them to lower the bore line.
sigmundsauer
05-08-08, 10:41
Tim -- FWIW, a buddy of mine just finished the P250 armorer school program, and they were told the hammer & mainspring were recently redesigned. I'm guessing that was in response to the light primer issue. I haven't seen it or played with it myself, so cannot comment on whether it affects trigger pull, etc.
There are probably only a couple dozen people in the U.S. who have fired a German-spec P250. Trust me, you're not missing anything: 10# trigger pull and about as smooth as two pieces of sandpaper rubbing against each other. The reset was shorter (actually, I should say I have no specific recollection of the reset one way or the other) but otherwise the US version is vastly superior in trigger feel.
I think it's going to flop because the modularity won't be as beneficial or economical as SIG wants it to be. Some people will get it for the novelty, some agencies might buy it for the practicality, but my guess is that in 2-3 years we'll see SIG Polymer MkIII come out, and it will be a striker-fired gun. It would actually be fairly easy to turn the P250 into a SFA, allowing them to lower the bore line.
Interesting. Although I have no insight to the particulars, there was obviously a reason(s) that the Germans have steered clear of the P250.
I think SIG has side-stepped SFA because their identity was so inextricably linked to DA technology; they truly were the pioneers of a workable DA/SA gun, and I think that SIG's DA/SA with decocker is still the absolute best system of its type today, followed by HK's V3 with button decocker (a la P30/P2000).
P250s and DAKs just don't sell well around here, and hear the same elsewhere. I think the trigger strokes are very workable but it's still a compromise over the obvious advantages that SFA has in other systems. The only hammer fired system that I think is truly workable and competitive against SFA is HK's LEM, with which I have had great success.
At my core I have a deep brand-loyalty to SIG, but the direction they've taken in recent years has divorced me from them. I truly would like SIG to return to the throne as the absolute best combat pistol manufacturer in the world. Until then I relish my older P226s and P228s. Heck, I even like the SIG PRO better than SIG's current innovations. Other than its bulk, that is a great pistol.
Tim
olds442tyguy
05-08-08, 15:42
Just my opinion, but who the hell is going to carry around three different frames for one slide length?
Are you really going to tear your pistol apart and go from a subcompact frame for carry to a full size frame for HD every night when you come home?
Do you think the military is really going to issue soldiers three different frames to carry around and change at will?
The trigger on it sucked and was very unSig like, and I about fainted when I saw the gaping hole between the slide and frame on the back of the pistol. The finish on it looked like rattle can matte, and the entire pistol felt like it was going to fall apart. Most pistols fire with authority, but when dry firing the P250, it sounds like some Chinese made BB gun and it has the trigger to go with it.
I'd rather just have a P229 with a polymer frame and interchangeable back strap.
variablebinary
05-08-08, 16:30
Interesting. Although I have no insight to the particulars, there was obviously a reason(s) that the Germans have steered clear of the P250.
I think SIG has side-stepped SFA because their identity was so inextricably linked to DA technology; they truly were the pioneers of a workable DA/SA gun, and I think that SIG's DA/SA with decocker is still the absolute best system of its type today, followed by HK's V3 with button decocker (a la P30/P2000).
P250s and DAKs just don't sell well around here, and hear the same elsewhere. I think the trigger strokes are very workable but it's still a compromise over the obvious advantages that SFA has in other systems. The only hammer fired system that I think is truly workable and competitive against SFA is HK's LEM, with which I have had great success.
At my core I have a deep brand-loyalty to SIG, but the direction they've taken in recent years has divorced me from them. I truly would like SIG to return to the throne as the absolute best combat pistol manufacturer in the world. Until then I relish my older P226s and P228s. Heck, I even like the SIG PRO better than SIG's current innovations. Other than its bulk, that is a great pistol.
Tim
I hope SIG reworks the trigger. I like the pistol otherwise. Feels nice in the hand. Single Action would be great, but even a DAO with a hammer that stays cocked like the LEM would be an improvement over the current pull.
I dont know who SIG expects to like that trigger outside of some very PC LEO agency somewhere
I'm defending the P250? When will the madness end?
Just my opinion, but who the hell is going to carry around three different frames for one slide length?
Are you really going to tear your pistol apart and go from a subcompact frame for carry to a full size frame for HD every night when you come home?
Having made the swap many times, I'm here to tell you it can be done in 10 seconds. Ten seconds. And it's easy enough that even someone as mechanically disinclined as me was able to figure it out without training or instructions. So yes, I can very easily see people swapping frame sizes.
However, going from a duty-sized gun to a subcompact means changing both the grip frame and the slide/barrel ... which is not any more of a hassle but certainly becomes expensive enough that you have to consider just having a second gun.
Do you think the military is really going to issue soldiers three different frames to carry around and change at will?
No. But for agencies or units where a particular person is assigned a particular sidearm, that person can easily make sure the P250 fits his hand properly at the depot or even unit maintenance level.
Most pistols fire with authority, but when dry firing the P250, it sounds like some Chinese made BB gun and it has the trigger to go with it.
Either it goes bang or it doesn't go bang. The sounds it makes when dry-firing aren't a concern to most people. The Glock sproing doesn't keep me up at night, either.
I'd rather just have a P229 with a polymer frame and interchangeable back strap.
Get in line! People have been saying that since before the first sigpro hit the market. I still remember when the first USP came out and folks were saying, huh, you'd think SIG would have done that.
But by the time SIG is into its next development cycle, the DA/SA gun will have fallen so far out of favor that it won't be feasible to build a company's future around such a design.
variablebinary
05-08-08, 22:47
Personally I'm not all the eager to see a plastic 229.
I think the PRO was SIG's attempt at making an updated plastic P-series, and it isnt like the world was bowled over. The SIGPRO is a pretty good pistol
SIG has a better chance of building a new line of products around the P250 platform over just trying to revise the P-series to be plastic friendly
In a couple of years I'm sure the P250 will come in every flavor possible, in terms of size, and trigger options.
I've got a P250 and I intend to keep it and get several options.
It really doesn't matter what you get, there is always someone to tell you it's a POS. I plan to have several brands. My next purchase will be a Glock 21SF , Then a Ruger LCP .380, a SIG P226., Springfield GI 1911.
I'm sure someone will be quick to say It's all a bunch of junk. Whatever.
Looks like I could fit two fingers around that grip before hitting the "beavertail". Talk about high bore axis with no control. I just can't get excited about those 250's. This is really the best Sig could come up with?
sigmundsauer
05-13-08, 12:29
Looks like I could fit two fingers around that grip before hitting the "beavertail". Talk about high bore axis with no control. I just can't get excited about those 250's. This is really the best Sig could come up with?
Have you actually shot one?
Recoil is NOT a problem. The long trigger reset will take some getting used to, however. Either way this is a pistol of some compromise on purpose. I wouldn't criticize it's shootability until firing one, particularly against a full-size pistol, with which it is not intended to compete.
Tim
If you are referring to the standard size 250 the answer is yes, several hundred rounds. I was underwhelmed. If you like it then thats cool. I don' t think everything should agree with me. But I was referring to the subcompact. Like the sub-compact glocks it would be way too stubby for my hands but even worse has a high bore axis. I didn't say anything about recoil being a concern btw nor would I on a 9mm. For a BUG pistol I can think of a whole lot better choices than this.
+1. I gotta have that pinky finger wrapped around something.
While I can shoot them ok, I agree. Stubby grips suck. Dont like them. Glock 19 length grip is as small as I like to go.
Thats the thing, even though the modular concept is neato cool and all that it's looking like you could almost buy another pistol instead of switching out parts. Also just to remind everyone the .45 vesion, if and when it comes out, is standalone can caanot be switched with the other calibers.
I think it's going to flop because the modularity won't be as beneficial or economical as SIG wants it to be.
Have you actually shot one?
Recoil is NOT a problem.
In 9mm, no gun has recoil problems.
In .40, recoil and flip are noticeably greater than a SIG P229R, G23, or M&P40. At least, that was my experience with a prototype last summer.
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