View Full Version : Lessons learned in combat. Limitations of the AR-15. "what training doesn't teach"
During my two tours in Iraq, I learned several "hard" lessons about the limitations of the AR-15 platform that were never mentioned during training. Here is my story;
Growing up, my dad had a Colt SP-1 that he had purchased new back in 1977. Unlike most kids, I was fortunate enough to have grown up being familiar with the AR-15. During my high school years, Dad would take me and my brother shooting every Sunday and we never left the house without the SP-1.
Fast forward a few years; I graduated high school and joined the Marines. Between boot camp and Infantry School, I had fired thousands of rounds through my M-16. Hell, we shot so much that I remember one Marine at Infantry school say " I wish we would get to shoot something else", "I'm sick and tired of this M-16". We also preformed regular cleaning and maintenance on our rifles. Needless to say, when I found out in 2004 that I was deploying to Iraq, I thought I knew everything there was to know about how to properly maintain my rifle.
During my first tour to Iraq, combat operations were running heavy and the enemy was eager to kill. Most of the missions that my unit conducted were based around either trying to liberate cities that were insurgent strong holds, searching for high value targets by setting up random vehicle checkpoints or conducting counter IED patrols along commonly traveled roadways. Roughly 2-3 times a weeks we would be hit with either IED's followed by short coordinated ambushes, random mortar attacks and very rarely, sniper fire.
During these enemy encounters, I may only fire 10-20 rounds through my rifle before the fight was over. However, I noticed that I was experiencing FTF, FTE malfunctions. When I would return to base at the end of a mission, my rifle would be packed with a mixture of carbon and the fine power like Iraqi sand. I also noticed other Marines having similar malfunctions. In an attempt to fix this problem, I would clean my rifle and wipe off all the clp, giving the sand less of a sticky substance to adhere to. "IT WASNT WORKING". I would still get a malfunction every so often. When I asked around, I noticed that malfunctions were happening less often to Marines that had newly issued magazines. Keep in mind that this was the era before Magpul anti-tilt followers and Pmags so all we had was the standard GI mags with the green or black followers.
I eventually came to the conclusion that the malfunctions were a result of several factors. It was a combination of the powder like sand grinding between the between the bolt carrier group and the upper receiver thus, slowing the bolt down and not allowing the rifle to cycle, leaving our magazines loaded for an extended period of time without taking our rounds out and relieving the spring tension, bad magazine followers and having so little time in between missions to properly maintenance or rifles.
That was almost 10 years ago. I have since discovered that this problem was common among troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Since that time, products have hit the market that would fix most of these problems such as the development of pmags, anti-tilt followers, nickel boron bcg's and sand resistant lubes such as militec and slip 2000. I often see people on this site dismiss piston driven AR's and even though I have never fired a piston AR, I can see why it was loved among special operations units during the war on terror. I would theorize that the lack of carbon fowling on the bcg of piston AR's, would help with the stoppages that were caused by the sand because less gunk would be entering the upper receiver.
Just thought I would share this story with you guys as we will go to war again and there is a good chance that it may be in a desert environment. These lessons can be passed on in training classes and may one day, save a life.
I'll buy a small part of your observation except that the green followers didn't really have issues. I ran them before there were Magpul followers also.
The bigger problem was people not disassembling their mags to clean them which I can see. Additionally no one paid attention to things like worn springs or damaged feedlips. CLP is crap and there has been quality lube for a number of years. I had Militec-1 when I was in the AO as far back as 2004 which is much better for lubrication purposes than CLP.
Taking rounds out and relieving spring tension is nonsense and it's a well known fact that springs wear from cycling (compression and decompression) and it has nothing to do with leaving them loaded for extended periods of time.
During my two tours in Iraq, I learned several "hard" lessons about the limitations of the AR-15 platform that were never mentioned during training. Here is my story;
Growing up, my dad had a Colt SP-1 that he had purchased new back in 1977. Unlike most kids, I was fortunate enough to have grown up being familiar with the AR-15. During my high school years, Dad would take me and my brother shooting every Sunday and we never left the house without the SP-1.
Fast forward a few years; I graduated high school and joined the Marines. Between boot camp and Infantry School, I had fired thousands of rounds through my M-16. Hell, we shot so much that I remember one Marine at Infantry school say " I wish we would get to shoot something else", "I'm sick and tired of this M-16". We also preformed regular cleaning and maintenance on our rifles. Needless to say, when I found out in 2004 that I was deploying to Iraq, I thought I knew everything there was to know about how to properly maintain my rifle.
During my first tour to Iraq, combat operations were running heavy and the enemy was eager to kill. Most of the missions that my unit conducted were based around either trying to liberate cities that were insurgent strong holds, searching for high value targets by setting up random vehicle checkpoints or conducting counter IED patrols along commonly traveled roadways. Roughly 2-3 times a weeks we would be hit with either IED's followed by short coordinated ambushes, random mortar attacks and very rarely, sniper fire.
During these enemy encounters, I may only fire 10-20 rounds through my rifle before the fight was over. However, I noticed that I was experiencing FTF, FTE malfunctions. When I would return to base at the end of a mission, my rifle would be packed with a mixture of carbon and the fine power like Iraqi sand. I also noticed other Marines having similar malfunctions. In an attempt to fix this problem, I would clean my rifle and wipe off all the clp, giving the sand less of a sticky substance to adhere to. "IT WASNT WORKING". I would still get a malfunction every so often. When I asked around, I noticed that malfunctions were happening less often to Marines that had newly issued magazines. Keep in mind that this was the era before Magpul anti-tilt followers and Pmags so all we had was the standard GI mags with the green or black followers.
I eventually came to the conclusion that the malfunctions were a result of several factors. It was a combination of the powder like sand grinding between the between the bolt carrier group and the upper receiver thus, slowing the bolt down and not allowing the rifle to cycle, leaving our magazines loaded for an extended period of time without taking our rounds out and relieving the spring tension, bad magazine followers and having so little time in between missions to properly maintenance or rifles.
That was almost 10 years ago. I have since discovered that this problem was common among troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Since that time, products have hit the market that would fix most of these problems such as the development of pmags, anti-tilt followers, nickel boron bcg's and sand resistant lubes such as militec and slip 2000. I often see people on this site dismiss piston driven AR's and even though I have never fired a piston AR, I can see why it was loved among special operations units during the war on terror. I would theorize that the lack of carbon fowling on the bcg of piston AR's, would help with the stoppages that were caused by the sand because less gunk would be entering the upper receiver.
Just thought I would share this story with you guys as we will go to war again and there is a good chance that it may be in a desert environment. These lessons can be passed on in training classes and may one day, save a life.
Mauser KAR98K
10-25-13, 01:23
In ten years, we have seen a major shift in the AR plateform's increase in reliability. Many of the things you have pointed out are part of it.
Here, on M4C, we have had threads on keeping mags loaded: is it good, or is it bad. Many here (including) me believe it is the cycling of the mags and the springs that cause FTE from the mag, not having mags loaded at all times. I, myself, have my primary AR in condition one at all times in my house (rural area, I can get away with it), so I generally have two-to-three mags loaded to max for months. I am about to cycle them out to some fresh mags for peace of mind, but the times I dumped my HD rounds out and ran them with ball ammo, I had no problems (PMAGS).
We had a member here run his LMT with something like 14,000 or way more rounds without cleaning his rifle. He lives in AZ and had a sand in his chamber (seeing from the photos). If I remember correctly, he did not have any malfunctions (if he did, they were towards the end). Can't remember off hand, will have to do a search-fu.
Serious question: When you had the time to do a proper maintenance on your weapon, how did you lube it? What me, and I am sure others, would love to know is how you lubed your weapon out in the sand box?
ETA: Plus one for Iraqgunz and the CLP. It does all three, just not very well.
I always ran motor oil on my bcg, a very thin layer. Idk how that would help in a desert scenario and I never ran my rifle in war situations but I've never had FTF or FTE using pmags. I have however had a couple using the old USGI mags without magpul followers. Not to sound like a magpul fanboy but there is more than one reason why guys switch out the followers or use pmags.
Thanks for the story OP.
DreadPirateMoyer
10-25-13, 01:45
In ten years, we have seen a major shift in the AR plateform's increase in reliability. Many of the things you have pointed out are part of it.
Here, on M4C, we have had threads on keeping mags loaded: is it good, or is it bad. Many here (including) me believe it is the cycling of the mags and the springs that cause FTE from the mag, not having mags loaded at all times. I, myself, have my primary AR in condition one at all times in my house (rural area, I can get away with it), so I generally have two-to-three mags loaded to max for months. I am about to cycle them out to some fresh mags for peace of mind, but the times I dumped my HD rounds out and ran them with ball ammo, I had no problems (PMAGS).
We had a member here run his LMT with something like 14,000 or way more rounds without cleaning his rifle. He lives in AZ and had a sand in his chamber (seeing from the photos). If I remember correctly, he did not have any malfunctions (if he did, they were towards the end). Can't remember off hand, will have to do a search-fu.
Serious question: When you had the time to do a proper maintenance on your weapon, how did you lube it? What me, and I am sure others, would love to know is how you lubed your weapon out in the sand box?
ETA: Plus one for Iraqgunz and the CLP. It does all three, just not very well.
It's not a belief -- it's science. :) Those who choose to ignore it are simply acting on blind faith.
As for the other issues, OP, carbon and even some amounts of sand are no problem for an AR-15 so long as the gun is properly lubed. The whole "keep it dry to prevent sand from sticking" schtick is totally wrong. This is why many of us don't praise piston systems -- they offer no reliability increase over a standard direct gas system if the guns are maintained properly. I recently rid myself of 2 LWRC's for this reason; in the long run, they simply offered nothing to me in terms of functionality or reliability over my BCMs.
Now, granted, a properly-maintained and properly-lubed gun with properly-maintained and properly-functioning magazines sounds to be a rarity in the military, but over here on the civilian side, most of your concerns are already addressed. Use magazines with Magpul followers and keep your gun lubed and most of your lessons from Iraq will no longer need to be remembered. :)
Per mil spec, we were always trained to fully clean the rifle, dry it off, then place a thin coat of clp on the bcg. After a couple of months in the sandbox, most of us would just clean the rifle and leave the bcg dry. In reference to the member running his LMT in AZ, one has to remember that it is very common for troops in Iraq to spend long periods of time, "days", outside with high winds blowing sand in our rifles. I remember cleaning my rifle on several occasions then, a gusty wind or sand storm would hit and my rifle was back in the same condition that it was before cleaning. As far as the magazines go, I have seen several situations were a fellow Marine has had a malfunction and when he pulled his mag out, the rounds were just sitting stuck in the magazine. I assumed that this was either due to weak springs or sand causing the follower to bind.
In ten years, we have seen a major shift in the AR plateform's increase in reliability. Many of the things you have pointed out are part of it.
Here, on M4C, we have had threads on keeping mags loaded: is it good, or is it bad. Many here (including) me believe it is the cycling of the mags and the springs that cause FTE from the mag, not having mags loaded at all times. I, myself, have my primary AR in condition one at all times in my house (rural area, I can get away with it), so I generally have two-to-three mags loaded to max for months. I am about to cycle them out to some fresh mags for peace of mind, but the times I dumped my HD rounds out and ran them with ball ammo, I had no problems (PMAGS).
We had a member here run his LMT with something like 14,000 or way more rounds without cleaning his rifle. He lives in AZ and had a sand in his chamber (seeing from the photos). If I remember correctly, he did not have any malfunctions (if he did, they were towards the end). Can't remember off hand, will have to do a search-fu.
Serious question: When you had the time to do a proper maintenance on your weapon, how did you lube it? What me, and I am sure others, would love to know is how you lubed your weapon out in the sand box?
ETA: Plus one for Iraqgunz and the CLP. It does all three, just not very well.
uncle money bags
10-25-13, 02:00
It's not a belief -- it's science. :) Those who choose to ignore it are simply acting on blind faith.
As for the other issues, OP, carbon and even some amounts of sand are no problem for an AR-15 so long as the gun is properly lubed. The whole "keep it dry to prevent sand from sticking" schtick is totally wrong. This is why many of us don't praise piston systems -- they offer no reliability increase over a standard direct gas system if the guns are maintained properly. I recently rid myself of 2 LWRC's for this reason; in the long run, they simply offered nothing to me in terms of functionality or reliability over my BCMs.
Though from what I've heard from a few of my friends that served in Iraq/Afghanistan, properly-maintained gun is a paradox. :\
I am going to echo these statements. My experience with Iraq was during the previous unpleasantness in 1991. At the time i was issued an M16a1 with a 203. We were actually taught to remove any excess (read amounts that would make the bcg appear shiny) oil from out weapons to "keep the sand from sticking". That tour was an experience in weapon malfunction that still bother me today because of the bad info we had. Hell, i didnt know any better, and it was many years later in the civi world when i learned that we were just flat out wrong. Granted, our magazines were also shite as they had the black followers and had probably never been rebuilt or at least had the springs replaced.
It was bad enough that i kept an AK47 behind the seat of the cucv so i would have something to shoot when i needed it most.
I can honestly say that i have run my civi weapons at least as harshly as that M16, but with better knowledge about how they need to be maintained and with what. The biggest of these is to use enough lube, followed by having good magazines.
As a result, my prior problems and misgivings are a thing of the past.
Have you ever seen Iraqi sand? Its as fine as baby powder. It DEFINITELY AND WITHOUT QUESTION, slows the bcg down to the point where it wouldnt cycle. When you're in such an environment you have to remember that you dont get a chance to clean your rifle everyday. Lubing the rifle would worsened this without question. Every time the wind blew over there, it was like getting sandblasted. Also, we deployed with brand new FN M-16 A4's. These werent beat up old Colts. Some magazines were new and some were probably several years old. To say that these lessons do not need to be remembered is down right offensive. If our boys are face with another desert war environment, they will have some of the same problems. Ive been in law enforcement ever since I got out of the military. Moreover, I have been a firearms instructor and armorer for the past four years and Ive never seen our AR's malfunction the way they did over there.
It's not a belief -- it's science. :) Those who choose to ignore it are simply acting on blind faith.
As for the other issues, OP, carbon and even some amounts of sand are no problem for an AR-15 so long as the gun is properly lubed. The whole "keep it dry to prevent sand from sticking" schtick is totally wrong. This is why many of us don't praise piston systems -- they offer no reliability increase over a standard direct gas system if the guns are maintained properly. I recently rid myself of 2 LWRC's for this reason; in the long run, they simply offered nothing to me in terms of functionality or reliability over my BCMs.
Now, granted, a properly-maintained and properly-lubed gun with properly-maintained and properly-functioning magazines sounds to be a rarity in the military, but over here on the civilian side, most of your concerns are already addressed. Use magazines with Magpul followers and keep your gun lubed and most of your lessons from Iraq will no longer need to be remembered. :)
And this is wrong. And before you ask yes I was in Iraq and I spent almost 5 years there as well as 1 year in A'stan. It is pretty well accepted that if you keep a good coat of good lube on the BCG it will actually put a protective layer between the BCG and the upper receiver. Quite honestly I don't accept the "we didn't have time for maintenance line" because although I wouldn't expect someone to stop in combat, had personnel simply wiped off the BCG with a rag and then re-lubed it they would have been fine.
Per mil spec, we were always trained to fully clean the rifle, dry it off, then place a thin coat of clp on the bcg. After a couple of months in the sandbox, most of us would just clean the rifle and leave the bcg dry. In reference to the member running his LMT in AZ, one has to remember that it is very common for troops in Iraq to spend long periods of time, "days", outside with high winds blowing sand in our rifles. I remember cleaning my rifle on several occasions then, a gusty wind or sand storm would hit and my rifle was back in the same condition that it was before cleaning. As far as the magazines go, I have seen several situations were a fellow Marine has had a malfunction and when he pulled his mag out, the rounds were just sitting stuck in the magazine. I assumed that this was either due to weak springs or sand causing the follower to bind.
I hate that you had to experience this brother. We were never told to shoot our weapons dry. We were however, issued shoot through muzzle caps to reduce sand in the barrel. About once a week, our weapons to include machine guns were inspected by the platoon SGT or a CPL for cleanliness. I personally think that the phosphate coating it's self is textured rough enough to cause sand to adhere. Ive though about this so much over the past years. I would have loved to carry an AK but the enemy started putting exploding ammo in them so we never picked them up.
I am going to echo these statements. My experience with Iraq was during the previous unpleasantness in 1991. At the time i was issued an M16a1 with a 203. We were actually taught to remove any excess (read amounts that would make the bcg appear shiny) oil from out weapons to "keep the sand from sticking". That tour was an experience in weapon malfunction that still bother me today because of the bad info we had. Hell, i didnt know any better, and it was many years later in the civi world when i learned that we were just flat out wrong. Granted, our magazines were also shite as they had the black followers and had probably never been rebuilt or at least had the springs replaced.
It was bad enough that i kept an AK47 behind the seat of the cucv so i would have something to shoot when i needed it most.
I can honestly say that i have run my civi weapons at least as harshly as that M16, but with better knowledge about how they need to be maintained and with what. The biggest of these is to use enough lube, followed by having good magazines.
As a result, my prior problems and misgivings are a thing of the past.
I would like to know how many detractors of the AR15 platform have used other rifles in similar environments and can speak to their efficacy...
Sorry you lost me there with that. Have a good night and welcome to M4C.
I hate that you had to experience this brother. We were never told to shoot our weapons dry. We were however, issued shoot through muzzle caps to reduce sand in the barrel. About once a week, our weapons to include machine guns were inspected by the platoon SGT or a CPL for cleanliness. I personally think that the phosphate coating it's self is textured rough enough to cause sand to adhere. Ive though about this so much over the past years. I would have loved to carry an AK but the enemy started putting exploding ammo in them so we never picked them up.
It's not a belief -- it's science. :) Those who choose to ignore it are simply acting on blind faith.
Maintenance is not required, it will always fire when the trigger is pulled, insha'allah.
Have you ever seen Iraqi sand? Its as fine as baby powder. It DEFINITELY AND WITHOUT QUESTION, slows the bcg down to the point where it wouldnt cycle. When you're in such an environment you have to remember that you dont get a chance to clean your rifle everyday. Lubing the rifle would worsened this without question.
...
Moreover, I have been a firearms instructor and armorer for the past four years and Ive never seen our AR's malfunction the way they did over there.
In my limited real world experience...
I had an AF Capt who insisted as you did, that lube was bad in a desert environment. His M4 had problems. I applied heavy lube to my M4. Not a single problem. We both used new issue aluminum mags with tan followers.
Obviously I wouldn't lie about not being able to clean our weapons. Brother, every soldier and Marine over there wiped their bcg of with a rag and cleaned them every chance they got. It was our lifeline. I was out on the Syrian/Jordanian border and our fob consisted of little more than hesco barriers and cammie netting. Im speaking from my experience. I cant speak for yours. Ive seen soldiers and Marines sitting at Camp Al Asad that were living like kings in wooden huts with air conditioning. I doubt they had to worry about weapons maintenance. Ive discussed this issue with many vets since, that stated that they hadn't fired their rifle during their entire deployment.
And this is wrong. And before you ask yes I was in Iraq and I spent almost 5 years there as well as 1 year in A'stan. It is pretty well accepted that if you keep a good coat of good lube on the BCG it will actually put a protective layer between the BCG and the upper receiver. Quite honestly I don't accept the "we didn't have time for maintenance line" because although I wouldn't expect someone to stop in combat, had personnel simply wiped off the BCG with a rag and then re-lubed it they would have been fine.
I would like to know how many detractors of the AR15 platform have used other rifles in similar environments and can speak to their efficacy...
Like an AK? I just did a google search that turned up nil.
What I wanna know is how has the military not fixed the problems with soldiers not knowing how to lube their rifles quickly and properly? As far as time goes my buddies who fought there all said it was a lot of hurry up and wait.
It sucks that a lot of these young guys had to figure it out the hard way.
DreadPirateMoyer
10-25-13, 02:52
Have you ever seen Iraqi sand? Its as fine as baby powder. It DEFINITELY AND WITHOUT QUESTION, slows the bcg down to the point where it wouldnt cycle. When you're in such an environment you have to remember that you dont get a chance to clean your rifle everyday. Lubing the rifle would worsened this without question. Every time the wind blew over there, it was like getting sandblasted. Also, we deployed with brand new FN M-16 A4's. These werent beat up old Colts. Some magazines were new and some were probably several years old. To say that these lessons do not need to be remembered is down right offensive. If our boys are face with another desert war environment, they will have some of the same problems. Ive been in law enforcement ever since I got out of the military. Moreover, I have been a firearms instructor and armorer for the past four years and Ive never seen our AR's malfunction the way they did over there.
Whoa, relax. It was just commentary on your lessons, elaborating on the real solutions to the problems you saw. No insults or slights meant. We just have a plethora of knowledge available here on M4C and I was trying to give you some insight on what we've learned (lube helps with everything, even sand; carbon build-up is essentially a non-factor with lube; piston systems don't add much to the game; Magpul followers will cure most problems in a quality, well-maintained magazine).
If you don't want it, that's fine. Enjoy your time on M4C.
What I wanna know is how has the military not fixed the problems with soldiers not knowing how to lube their rifles quickly and properly? As far as time goes my buddies who fought there all said it was a lot of hurry up and wait.
It sucks that a lot of these young guys had to figure it out the hard way.
Institutional inertia (slow to change and update TTPs). People repeating what their daddies or a SNCO in boot camp told them. Urban (desert) legends. The idea that a fighting condition weapon should start the day looking like an inspection condition weapon. Etc.
We received several reports of booby trapped AK's and were told not to pick them up. Even heard one storyy about a Marine that went to clear an Ak and when he pulled the charging handle back, it exploded. We got an intel brief about ammo that was filled with some sort of explosive charge or rigged to blow up. There use to be a video on youtube about this. I think it was through AP.
Sorry you lost me there with that. Have a good night and welcome to M4C.
vicious_cb
10-25-13, 06:33
We received several reports of booby trapped AK's and were told not to pick them up. Even heard one storyy about a Marine that went to clear an Ak and when he pulled the charging handle back, it exploded. We got an intel brief about ammo that was filled with some sort of explosive charge or rigged to blow up. There use to be a video on youtube about this. I think it was through AP.
Modern version of "Eldest Son" perhaps? Anyway its a damn shame that troops are still getting taught to run guns dry in the desert. I mean the M4 dust tests PROVED that running heavy lube in extreme dust conditions made guns more reliable, you would think that an official test run by the DoD would have some merit.
In 05 me and 3 other AF cops were sent to Iraq to be part of one of those in lieu of assignments for the Army. (MNFI) We did convoy duty from Talil to Taji. I was assigned to the AF 50 cal school at the time so I was picked to be the 50 gunner. Our Army counterparts wanted us to run our M4s dry as a bone but our 50s dripping. Up in the turret I always had plenty of oil so I was able to keep the bolt wet on my M4 but when we did PCC/PCIs before a mission the convoy commander would want us to show the TC our bolts to make sure they were dry.
Eldest son, yes. Im sure thats where they got the idea. As for running weapons dry, the USMC doesn't teach this. It was something that we tried in an attempt to lesson the sand/ build up. All Marines in my unit were issued an otis cleaning kit with (1) small bottle of break free so using heavy lube wasnt really an option because we didn't have enough a large amount of lube to use. If you've ever watched Generation Kill, the Marines in that show dealt with similar problems. However, we did have a ton of LSA which I would never use on an M-16. LSA is a very thick lube used on heavy machine guns.
Modern version of "Eldest Son" perhaps? Anyway its a damn shame that troops are still getting taught to run guns dry in the desert. I mean the M4 dust tests PROVED that running heavy lube in extreme dust conditions made guns more reliable, you would think that an official test run by the DoD would have some merit.
Have you ever seen Iraqi sand? Its as fine as baby powder. It DEFINITELY AND WITHOUT QUESTION, slows the bcg down to the point where it wouldnt cycle. When you're in such an environment you have to remember that you dont get a chance to clean your rifle everyday. Lubing the rifle would worsened this without question. Every time the wind blew over there, it was like getting sandblasted. Also, we deployed with brand new FN M-16 A4's. These werent beat up old Colts. Some magazines were new and some were probably several years old. To say that these lessons do not need to be remembered is down right offensive. If our boys are face with another desert war environment, they will have some of the same problems. Ive been in law enforcement ever since I got out of the military. Moreover, I have been a firearms instructor and armorer for the past four years and Ive never seen our AR's malfunction the way they did over there.
I haven't seen the Iraq dust, but I've seen enough of the A'stan "moon dust" that there's still some in clothes I brought back. I'm a self acknowledged Fobbit that didn't even have a rifle issued, so I can't comment on that.
However, given it's "Fine as baby powder" (which I pretty much agree with), lets have someone roll their BCG in a tray of baby powder, lube it up, and shoot it.
Volunteers? If I had a closer range and my wife would give me half a day, I'd do it.
just a scout
10-25-13, 07:03
I was in Desert Storm, as a Brad gunner and dismount leader. In my platoon, at least, we ran everything dripping, including the port firing weapons, M 240s, 60s, etc. the biggest problems we had were from bad magazines. We would keep big spray bottles of CLP and oil in the tracks and hose them down a couple times a day. Before the ground war began, it was clean, dry and wrapped in garbage bags. Once the shooting started though....
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Failure2Stop
10-25-13, 07:25
Lack of lubrication and worn magazines are the leading causes of stoppages in the AR platform.
I did tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, not a single stoppage in a few thousand rounds fired in anger. Not a single stoppage reported by my men in their several thousand rounds fired.
Back in 03/04 I did not lubricate with the fervor that I did afterward, but it showed that a light to moderate coat of lubricant is far superior to a dry BCG.
SilverBullet432
10-25-13, 07:47
"You can run wet and dirty, but not dirty and dry." -Larry Vickers.
Have you ever seen Iraqi sand? Its as fine as baby powder. It DEFINITELY AND WITHOUT QUESTION, slows the bcg down to the point where it wouldnt cycle. When you're in such an environment you have to remember that you dont get a chance to clean your rifle everyday.
If you have time to eat, shit, or wipe your ass you have time to clean your rifle.
Clear it, shotgun it open, wipe the moon dust off the carrier and inside the upper, a couple drops of lube, put it back together. You don't even have to disassemble the bolt and risk losing something. A drive-on rag works perfectly and you can carry it with you in your on-body web gear.
I've been one, and seen enough Joes to notice most don't service their magazines. Most wouldn't know a magazine brush if it bit 'em on the ass. Most don't know to wipe the dust off their rounds.
http://cdn.atlantictactical.com/images/uploads/p_kle162.jpg
Simple NCO shit that isn't taught any more. Ever seen the M16 maintenance comic book?
When somebody's battle drill includes, upon initial contact:
- all warfighters break their M4s down shotgun-style
- remove and disassemble the BCG
- drop the bolt in 3rd World colon moon-dust
(....which is the same moon-dust found in every arid environment 3rd World dungheap of a country, ffs.... :rolleyes:)
- nudge it about with one's toe for a bit to get a gooooood, even coat 'o' dust onnit, boy howdy!
- extract it from said dust
- lube the bolt
- re-assemble and re-install the BCG
- THEN react to contact and conduct whatever actions the fight requires....
....then and only then will dumping a lubed bolt in dust, applying more lube, and then seeing if it fires make any realistic sense whatsoever as a "test."
What this rehash (yes, rehash; TRY to tell me we don't have recently-active lube and magazine threads, already...) has done, so far, is re-create a Point Break scene.
Candle wax. Car wax. Mustache wax? Could be anything. Guy’s waxing his mustache at the beach. Gets sand in it. Wipes it off with a shoe. Shoe scuffs the counter.
...except that it was a sarcastic spitballing conversation in the move....but add internet and it's :SeriousGoodIdea,Bro:
Add in laying leadership failures at the feet of the equipment....? No time to clean, my bleeding piles. That's not a reason, that's an excuse; biiiiig difference.
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