View Full Version : Fed brass got me!
I reloaded some 223 mixed brass for the 3rd time. I thought I had culled the Fed brass out of the mix, dumb mistake. Loaded 55grn dog town with 23.5grns. H335 2.23 AOL. Same load I've used many times in my AR and Mini 14. All cases were full length sized and trimmed. Took my AR and 150 rds. to the range and on the 43rd round the bolt jammed and wouldn't eject or move, it was seriously locked up. I was able to determine that the jammed round had indeed fired and it was inside the group at 100yds, ok no danger of a cook-off. Went home, I could not get the lower/upper separated, I poured a little Croils down the barrel and let it sit for a couple of hours, very judiciously tapped on the fired case with a steel cleaning rod until I was able to remove the fired case, no signs of pressure, case length was good. I examined all the fired cases and lo and behold the lone Federal case had no primer in the pocket! I believe this was the round fired prior to the jam.( I load and fire 5 rounds at a time, pick up the brass and put them in a 50 round box). OK having already proved I'm an idiot I decided to call Windham, the rifle is only 2 months old, the gunsmith theorized the primer had fallen out and lodged itself somewhere in the BCG. He recommended I not mess with it and send the rifle back to him for repair. No more Federal brass again! I should have paid attention to you guys. BTW I've been reloading many calibers since 1975, so no excuse other than complacency!:nono:
I may have missed something so please excuse me if I did. Was the issue a loose primer pocket? Possibly a hot round? If so, wouldn't that be more fault to the reloader than of the brass? Either way, I'll take all the Federal brass off your hands if you don't wish to use it. :)
Sent via Tapatalk
Never had an issue with Fed brass either, but I am just one man.
There is no need to send the rifle back if you can field strip it. If the piece is jammed somewhere in there you can remove it. There is no reason that it would have made it into the BCG, but even if it did, disassembly of the BCG is no harder than taking the battery out of a cell phone.
In my exp. they tend to have a shorter life span than lake city brass. I tend to save federal for practice and range play time. Lake city for matches.
I've never taken a case to its failure point so I don't know exactly how long they last. I just listend to the old timer who got me into service rifle.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Yep, I've reloaded and shot thousands of FC brass, never had an issue....O.L.
I may have missed something so please excuse me if I did. Was the issue a loose primer pocket? Possibly a hot round? If so, wouldn't that be more fault to the reloader than of the brass? Either way, I'll take all the Federal brass off your hands if you don't wish to use it. :)
Sent via Tapatalk
It was my fault as I did not cull that piece of brass, it had a loose primer pocket, as much of the Fed brass I had used previously did. I got rid of all of them but this one slipped by me. Sorry the garbage man has them now. 23.5 grns. of H335 under a 55 grn. hp bullet is far from hot
Never had an issue with Fed brass either, but I am just one man.
There is no need to send the rifle back if you can field strip it. If the piece is jammed somewhere in there you can remove it. There is no reason that it would have made it into the BCG, but even if it did, disassembly of the BCG is no harder than taking the battery out of a cell phone.
As I stated I cannot field strip it, the BCG is jammed about 1 1/2 inches back from the chamber. I tried to separate the lower from the upper and it too is stuck. I really don't want to force anything, the rifle is 2 mos. old and under warrantee and I have zero skills as a gunsmith. I have had hundreds of of red box Fed 223 brass from my dept.'s range pick up and after 3 cycles the primer pockets were getting loose. This one got by me.
Never had an issue with Fed brass either, but I am just one man.
There is no need to send the rifle back if you can field strip it. If the piece is jammed somewhere in there you can remove it. There is no reason that it would have made it into the BCG, but even if it did, disassembly of the BCG is no harder than taking the battery out of a cell phone.
I understand I've had the BCG disassembled degreased, cleaned and lubed from day one and a few times since, that is not the problem. I cannot remove the BCG as it is stuck in it's channel and neither the forward assist nor the charging handle will budge it.
23.5 grns. of H335 under a 55 grn. hp bullet is far from hot
Right. My point was more of a "sometimes mistakes happen", ie over charge... and a loose pocket should've been caught when priming. Automatically tossing any Federal brass seems wasteful, especially when this case appears to be operator error. At any rate, it's your decision. Me? I'd rather use Federal brass than a Windham rifle but that's a whole different story.
BTW, welcome to M4C. Have a good evening.
Sent via Tapatalk
Right. My point was more of a "sometimes mistakes happen", ie over charge... and a loose pocket should've been caught when priming. Automatically tossing any Federal brass seems wasteful, especially when this case appears to be operator error. At any rate, it's your decision. Me? I'd rather use Federal brass than a Windham rifle but that's a whole different story.
BTW, welcome to M4C. Have a good evening.
Sent via Tapatalk
I'll bite my lip and excuse the blame game and rifle snobbery. I was looking for advice OK?
I'll bite my lip and excuse the blame game and rifle snobbery. I was looking for advice OK?
Today, Sunday, after thinking about the problem on and off all night I figured what the heck the rifle is made to take considerable force so I used the Federal case that contributed to the problem as a drift punch. I kept tapping the bolt forward by it's lugs until I was able to use the forward assist to gently hammer the bolt into battery. Presto... I was then able to disassemble the upper/ lower and remove the bolt. A squashed primer fell out of the rifle. I cleaned and lubed it, manually worked the charging handle and bolt. It all seems fine, I'll take it to my range and see how it all works, for now I'm very happy!:D
nickn10,
Sounds like Windham has good customer service, but happy you were able to cure the problem yourself.
I reloaded some 223 mixed brass for the 3rd time. I thought I had culled the Fed brass out of the mix, dumb mistake. Loaded 55grn dog town with 23.5grns. H335 2.23 AOL. Same load I've used many times in my AR and Mini 14. All cases were full length sized and trimmed. Took my AR and 150 rds. to the range and on the 43rd round the bolt jammed and wouldn't eject or move, it was seriously locked up. I was able to determine that the jammed round had indeed fired and it was inside the group at 100yds, ok no danger of a cook-off. Went home, I could not get the lower/upper separated, I poured a little Croils down the barrel and let it sit for a couple of hours, very judiciously tapped on the fired case with a steel cleaning rod until I was able to remove the fired case, no signs of pressure, case length was good. I examined all the fired cases and lo and behold the lone Federal case had no primer in the pocket! I believe this was the round fired prior to the jam.( I load and fire 5 rounds at a time, pick up the brass and put them in a 50 round box). OK having already proved I'm an idiot I decided to call Windham, the rifle is only 2 months old, the gunsmith theorized the primer had fallen out and lodged itself somewhere in the BCG. He recommended I not mess with it and send the rifle back to him for repair. No more Federal brass again! I should have paid attention to you guys. BTW I've been reloading many calibers since 1975, so no excuse other than complacency!:nono:
Today, Sunday, after thinking about the problem on and off all night I figured what the heck the rifle is made to take considerable force so I used the Federal case that contributed to the problem as a drift punch. I kept tapping the bolt forward by it's lugs until I was able to use the forward assist to gently hammer the bolt into battery. Presto... I was then able to disassemble the upper/ lower and remove the bolt. A squashed primer fell out of the rifle. I cleaned and lubed it, manually worked the charging handle and bolt. It all seems fine, I'll take it to my range and see how it all works, for now I'm very happy!:DSo the gunsmith knew exactly where that primer was?? Is this a common occurrence with Windham? Can a tight chamber spike pressure? Dunno something about gunsmith calling the shot, makes me curios (like he's seen it more than once), who knows he may just be a hell of a gunsmith...
So the gunsmith knew exactly where that primer was?? Is this a common occurrence with Windham? Can a tight chamber spike pressure? Dunno something about gunsmith calling the shot, makes me curios (like he's seen it more than once), who knows he may just be a hell of a gunsmith...
He was on the phone with me for over 10 minutes. I went step by step, prior to when and after the event. He asked pointed questions and when I told him the Fed case ejected without a primer in the pocket and the jam occurred on the next fired round he surmised it was a primer still in the action that caused the jammed the BCG. Although the jam was not the fault of the rifle he offered to repair it for free if I paid postage to Windham. Can't ask for more than that. Seems like they are more than willing to take care of their customers.
OP, when hand priming fired cases and you feel a primer pocket is loose, mark said case with a marker and discard marked cases when working brass for next load. Follow this and federal cases are not an issue. I've loaded well over 10,000 cases and do not read the head-stamp but trash anything without a snug primer pocket.
HackerF15E
10-27-13, 14:41
Show us a pic of the headstamp of the F C brass, if you would.
Show us a pic of the headstamp of the F C brass, if you would.
this is one case from the same lot of brass, as I mentioned in an earlier post this lot was range PU from our Colt duty rifles, then reloaded 3X for a mini 14 and the final load of 23.5 grn. H335 and a 55 grn Dogtown HP in my AR. All cases were full length resized, and trimmed to specs.
Has anyone other than me noticed that Federal .223 brass is always shorter than others? Seems like it never needs a trim versus lake city, pmc, etc.
OP, when hand priming fired cases and you feel a primer pocket is loose, mark said case with a marker and discard marked cases when working brass for next load. Follow this and federal cases are not an issue. I've loaded well over 10,000 cases and do not read the head-stamp but trash anything without a snug primer pocket.
Just bought 500 cases of LC brass, cleaned, trimmed and pockets swaged. I have 150 cases of Win Brass and 100 cases of RP. I trashed all the FC, I can't reliably say how many times some of them had been reloaded.. I will take note of your advice. Tossing $.20 brass after 4-5 reloads is a lot cheaper than $30.00 shipping for repairs to the BCG.
HackerF15E
10-27-13, 17:00
this is one case from the same lot of brass, as I mentioned in an earlier post this lot was range PU from our Colt duty rifles, then reloaded 3X for a mini 14 and the final load of 23.5 grn. H335 and a 55 grn Dogtown HP in my AR. All cases were full length resized, and trimmed to specs.
Yep, that is the "large font" FC brass that folks avoid due to the thin webbing.
The smaller/thinner font brass -- and especially the recent FC that looks a lot like the NATO LC headstamp -- hasn't shown the thin webbing that I'm aware of.
Just bought 500 cases of LC brass, cleaned, trimmed and pockets swaged. I have 150 cases of Win Brass and 100 cases of RP. I trashed all the FC, I can't reliably say how many times some of them had been reloaded.. I will take note of your advice. Tossing $.20 brass after 4-5 reloads is a lot cheaper than $30.00 shipping for repairs to the BCG.
Excellent, you now have some nice brass to work with.
When you start to stockpile 5 to 10K rounds building your ammo fort for unexpected shortages and inevitable price increases, range brass will be you friend...:p
Excellent, you now have some nice brass to work with.
When you start to stockpile 5 to 10K rounds building your ammo fort for unexpected shortages and inevitable price increases, range brass will be you friend...:p
Any suggestions for where I can buy brass reasonably?
No clue on "reasonable" now days! I've got a brass buzzard that swoops in behind LE after their range secessions. :) As for the primer, I've seen blown primers even on new factory loads. I suspect the military crimps them for a reason! :rolleyes: If one falls/blows out, there isn't much way to know where it's going to wind up in the action, from what I've heard others who've seen it, as often as not they wind up in the trigger group and cause issues there. I'd say what you saw was a fluke. I've loaded and shot a lot of rounds where the primer pockets are getting soft and noticed missing primers later on while sorting brass. I've never had a rifle malfunction because of a primer. I did have a JP trigger freeze up when a sliver of brass got under it but not a primer, 10 minuets later it was up and running. I guess it's OK to rely on a gun smith but most guns aren't rocket science and much can be done without special tools, those are good skills to learn and may save your life some day. FYI, the factory or smith would have most likely did the same thing you did! :) Wooden dowels work well when trying to get something to move but you probably didn't hurt anything using the brass......O.L.
nickn10
Federal cases are noted for soft brass and loose primer pockets, one of the problems is the thinner flash hole web at the bottom of the case. I have had a 50% primer pocket rejection rate on some once fired Federal cases.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/FCvsMilbrasssectioned_zpsc7001386.jpg
Military Lake City cases are made to higher standards and the brass is harder in the base to better withstand larger diameter and longer headspaced military chambers.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/556hard-a_zps7570e6b0.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/hardness-a_zps8d54ad66.jpg
Commercial contract military ammunition must meet higher mil-spec requirments, and this dates back to the early jamming problems with the M16 rifle.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Casehardness-a_zps14dbe0fd.jpg
nickn10, there is "NOTHING" wrong with your Windham AR15 rifle, you just need a good primer hand tool that has good feel when seating your primers and not let any loose primer pockets slip by. Keep your eyes on those Federal cases, and for an eye opener just Google Federal brass and loose primer pockets.
With a simple Lee decaping tool you can check your primed cases, if you can move the primer by just pressing on the decapping rod with down pressure with one finger the primer pocket is too loose.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/testprimers_zps315f4689.jpg
And remember a over gassed AR15 still has pressure in the barrel when the bolt starts moving to the rear. And this residual pressure can cause the primer to pop out if the primer pocket is a loose fit. And yes there is a reason why military ammunition has crimped primers.
And when primer pockets get loose they can screw up your bolt face with high pressure gas leaks.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/coltbolt-1_zps146f5233.jpg
And the same primer would have fallen out on a Colt AR15 rifle. :sarcastic:
From Big Ed,"nickn10, there is "NOTHING" wrong with your Windham AR15 rifle, you just need a good primer hand tool that has good feel when seating your primers and not let any loose primer pockets slip by. Keep your eyes on those Federal cases, and for an eye opener just Google Federal brass and loose primer pockets."
Thanks Ed, I learned my lesson, thanks for the post very informative, I was a bit miffed when some were quick to blame me or the rifle when it turned out to be FEDERAL brass. I took the rifle out yesterday and fired 50 rds. with LC brass and SS109 with 23.5 grns. of H335. The rifle ran perfectly and I was fine with the accuracy got a nice round 3 inch group at 160 meters, not bad for an old fart and a "CHEAP" AR with an Ecotech & 3X magnifier.:smile:
HackerF15E
10-28-13, 10:06
Federal cases are noted for soft brass and loose primer pockets, one of the problems is the thinner flash hole web at the bottom of the case.
Again, not ALL of the Federal cases have the thin web; primarily the "large font" headstamp FC brass has this problem (which has not been produced for many years -- 90s, maybe?). The photo attached in this thread is a good example of that large font headstamp
The last few years' worth of Lake City-made (purple primer sealant) FC brass doesn't have the problem. I have not run into any of the "small font" FC brass that has the thin web, but I stopped testing them because I never saw any -- maybe some of those do, but I haven't seen any personally.
Thanks Ed, I learned my lesson, thanks for the post very informative, I was a bit miffed when some were quick to blame me or the rifle when it turned out to be FEDERAL brass.
My apology. I wasn't aware that your Federal brass reloaded itself.
Sent via Tapatalk
I wouldn't be so quick to take insult from the comments. It was just the way you stated that you made a mistake by not disgarding all your federal brass.
You post on this site long enough and you'll realize that painting any brand item with such a broad brush will get some defending that brand.
I think what some were basically stating was that there have been more problems caused by reloading mistakes (usually inadvert) than by bad federal brass.
Not a knock of your ability or your rifle. Believe me. I've been reloading for many years and every once in a while a hot (double charge) one or a messed up piece of brass sneaks pass the culling process.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
I wouldn't be so quick to take insult from the comments. It was just the way you stated that you made a mistake by not disgarding all your federal brass.
You post on this site long enough and you'll realize that painting any brand item with such a broad brush will get some defending that brand.
I think what some were basically stating was that there have been more problems caused by reloading mistakes (usually inadvert) than by bad federal brass.
Not a knock of your ability or your rifle. Believe me. I've been reloading for many years and every once in a while a hot (double charge) one or a messed up piece of brass sneaks pass the culling process.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Have you had the misfortune of firing a double charged load? I would have thought that would result in a kaboom.
I have, it hurts.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m237/sdelam1/IMG_6740.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/sdelam1/media/IMG_6740.jpg.html)
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m237/sdelam1/IMG_6720.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/sdelam1/media/IMG_6720.jpg.html)
I have but only in my revolver. She was a nice model ten. I have had measure issues which created some hot loads in my AR's but thankfully nothing damaging, just a blown primer here and there and a few case failures.
Its been awhile, thank god. (now I've jinxed myself)
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Heavy Metal
10-28-13, 19:12
So the gunsmith knew exactly where that primer was?? Is this a common occurrence with Windham? Can a tight chamber spike pressure? Dunno something about gunsmith calling the shot, makes me curios (like he's seen it more than once), who knows he may just be a hell of a gunsmith...
23.3 gr of H335 is easily a .223 pressure load anyways. A light loading.
nickn10
Let me guess you reload on a progressive press?:rolleyes: Almost impossible to "feel" a loose primer pocket on a Progressive press! Do you deprime on a single stage?:confused:
[QUOTE=Ryno12;1782038]My apology. I wasn't aware that your Federal brass reloaded itself.
nickn10
Let me guess you reload on a progressive press?:rolleyes: Almost impossible to "feel" a loose primer pocket on a Progressive press! Do you deprime on a single stage?:confused:
Yes I do, It's a Lee progressive but I use it as a single stage for rifle reloads. So yes I deprime on a single stage. I remove the rotation spindle and manually do each step individually. Depriming with the leverage is harder to judge, but priming does give feedback in effort required. In 43 yrs. of reloading this is a first. To address another posters reference I think it is impossible to double charge 23.5 grns of H335 in a 223 case. To all who have given constructive advice Thank you it gave me the confidence to address the problem and the rifle is fine. To those who gave critical judgments thanks for your concern but try to be a bit more understanding that some come here for help not condemnation. That just pisses me off.
Excellent, you now have some nice brass to work with.
When you start to stockpile 5 to 10K rounds building your ammo fort for unexpected shortages and inevitable price increases, range brass will be you friend...:p
Just ordered another 500 cases, if my Rem. 581LH pending funds on Armslist sells, I'll get another 1000 thank you I appreciate it.
I wouldn't be so quick to take insult from the comments. It was just the way you stated that you made a mistake by not disgarding all your federal brass.
You post on this site long enough and you'll realize that painting any brand item with such a broad brush will get some defending that brand.
I think what some were basically stating was that there have been more problems caused by reloading mistakes (usually inadvert) than by bad federal brass.
Not a knock of your ability or your rifle. Believe me. I've been reloading for many years and every once in a while a hot (double charge) one or a messed up piece of brass sneaks pass the culling process.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
You are correct, I apologize for being so defensive. :thank_you2:I guess I defend myself as much as some defend their choice of brass, ;)
nickn10
I have three five gallon buckets of .223/5.56 once fired brass, I was lucky to be at the range one day when our local police and SWAT teams were practicing with their AR15 rifles. The three buckets of brass are almost equal amounts of Lake City, Remington and Federal brass. I started cleaning and prepping the Federal brass first and after all that work on the Federal brass I ended up with over a 50% failure rate with loose primer pockets. I put the bucket of Federal brass in the corner to gather dust and started prepping the Lake City and Remington cases. "NONE" of the once fired Remington or Lake City cases had loose primer pockets.
What angers me is the fact that ATK has the military contract to manufacture ammunition at Lake City Army Ammunition Plant and ATK owns Federal ammunition. Now "WHY" can't Federal make cases to commercial or military standards. I'm wondering if Federals primer crimping process has something to do with enlarged primer pockets or if they are using cheaper softer brass.
Below, Remington .223 brass, after swaging primer pockets, uniforming the primer pockets and flash holes on the Federal brass, I got lazy and just wet tumbled the Remington brass with stainless steel media and started loading. All that work on the Federal brass and half the once fired cases were junk. :mad:
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/halfdone_zps8557fc4b.jpg
Federal and Lake City brass
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/bucketsofbrass_zps6927af18.jpg
I tried quoting you to address your statement regarding my intelligence & ego but you have since edited your response. At any rate, here is my response to that.
What I got out of your OP was, and I'm paraphrasing: "I missed a piece of Federal brass in my inventory. I reloaded it. It had a loose primer. The primer flew out & locked up my gun. All Federal brass is junk."
That is the way I read it. I then stated, politely mind you, that it really isn't the fault of Federal that your gun malfunctioned. It is the reloaders responsibility to catch any nonconforming brass.You responded:
It was my fault as I did not cull that piece of brass, it had a loose primer pocket, as much of the Fed brass I had used previously did. I got rid of all of them but this one slipped by me. Sorry the garbage man has them now. 23.5 grns. of H335 under a 55 grn. hp bullet is far from hot
Completely disregarding the fact that it is ALWAYS the responsibility of the reloader to inspect EVERY piece of brass. If it doesn't pass, it needs to get tossed. This is of no fault to Federal or your AR manufacturer, only you. You took offense that I called you out on that. I don't understand how you don't see that. People make mistakes, it's not a big deal but if you're going to place blame, as you did in the OP, it should be placed fairly. That's all I'm saying. I apologize if I came off being dick.
I have the same Lee progressive press as you. I hand load all my rifle calibers because: A. My Lee Double Disk auto charge sucks & throws inconsistent charges and B. there is terrible feel when priming. I now hand prime all my rifle loads to prevent the very thing that happened to you. I also bought a Hornady Charge Master to weigh the charges so I can see the weight of EVERY load I produce. Sure, I'm much slower than a progressive but I'm pretty confident on all my charges & primer pockets.
I don't want you to think I have any brand loyalty either, because I don't. In fact, I absolutely hate Federal primers because I've had so much difficulty with them. Many people like them, they're just not for me. As for my flavor of brass? It's Lake City.
Sent via Tapatalk
Ryno;
My apologies for being hyper sensitive, please just blame it on
1. My new rifle jammed you can imagine how anyone would feel.
2. I would be without it for a couple of weeks for repairs.
3. I consider myself very careful when reloading.
4. I was looking for advice from a forum with an excellent reputation for expertise.
5. I was not expecting your response.
6 I failed to take blame and became defensive.
Again I apologize to you and everyone in this forum, my rifle is good, I am satisfied this issue is resolved and wish to continue using this forum for it's excellent information.
Respectfully,
Nickn10
We're good man. No need to apologize. Glad you got'er back up and running.
Sent via Tapatalk
Ryno;
My apologies for being hyper sensitive, please just blame it on
1. My new rifle jammed you can imagine how anyone would feel.
2. I would be without it for a couple of weeks for repairs.
3. I consider myself very careful when reloading.
4. I was looking for advice from a forum with an excellent reputation for expertise.
5. I was not expecting your response.
6 I failed to take blame and became defensive.
Again I apologize to you and everyone in this forum, my rifle is good, I am satisfied this issue is resolved and wish to continue using this forum for it's excellent information.
Respectfully,
Nickn10
Nickn10, I know deep down inside you would feel better if you could shoot Ryno in the head with a bazooka, have him drawn and quartered, stretched on the rack, burned at the stake and have his library card revoked.
I myself thought his answers were insulting and uncalled for, but then again he might have graduated first in his class at the Attila the Hun School of Diplomacy and thought his caustic comments met diplomatic standards.
Thanks for your input ed. I'm sorry you feel that strongly about it. I reread what I posted & I feel you are grossly overreacting.
Sent via Tapatalk
The butthurt is strong here.
The fact remains that reloading comes with risk. Plain & simple. All was fixed and no harm done and in the end the OP received good advice all around.
I was unaware of the large font Federal issue, so we all learned something. Everybody go have a Coke and a smile. :)
The butthurt is strong here.
The fact remains that reloading comes with risk. Plain & simple. All was fixed and no harm done and in the end the OP received good advice all around.
I was unaware of the large font Federal issue, so we all learned something. Everybody go have a Coke and a smile. :)
Great advice, as a retired correction officer I learned early on that arguments are rarely won but instead can become fuel for resentment. A handshake, nod of the head, or sorry man helps defuse things. Anyway I'm gonna reload some more and go head shoot my Osama bin Laden targets.
so we're all Kumbuyah now?.. good, I have a question...
FC with small stamp - good?
big stamp - all bad, just toss the moment you find one?
or can I trust my own once-fired for another loading paying attention to primer pocket tension? I hand prime all my brass...
There are many types and methods of primer seating, from press mounted types with next to no feel to hand held priming tools with excellent feel.
The minimum acceptable priming force used for a bolt action rifle would not be acceptable on a gas operated rifle.
Below is an animated image of the firing cycle of a rifle cartridge case and a primer that is not crimped in place.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/HeadClearance_zpsf30a3af1.gif
The problem with over gassed semiautomatic rifles is the fact that the bolt can be moving to the rear when pressure is still in the barrel. This can allow the "uncrimped" primer to move even further to the rear and if the primer pocket is loose or oversize the primer can fall out of the primer pocket.
The primer doesn't care if its fired in a Colt or brand X AR15 rifle and military requirements state the primer will be crimped.
If you Google Federal brass and loose primer pockets you will find out it is a ongoing problem with all calibers. You will read people saying they do not have a problem with Federal brass and you will read about many people having problems with loose primer pockets and "soft" brass. I have enough Remington and Lake City cases that I can let my Federal cases sit and not bother with them until a later date.
This website and forum has a great deal of weapon snobbery and uncalled for rude replys in its posting, and it adds nothing to the quality of the postings.
Bottom line, Federal has a quality control problem and it is having a on going problem with brass hardness in the base of the case. I'm retired and have been reloading for over 46 years and this isn't a imaginary problem with Federal brand cases.
The person who posted the photo below was having problems the first time the Federal cases were reloaded. (second firing) Seating feel is very important when reloading the AR15 rifle and you need to pay close attention when priming.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/coltbolt-1_zps146f5233.jpg
Below is a exaggerated image of the effects of soft brass in the base of the case. If you have over .002 to .003 expansion at the base of the case at normal chamber pressures the brass is too soft. And new factory loaded cases shouldn't have loose primer pockets after the first firing.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/flow_zps2b838d87.gif
so we're all Kumbuyah now?.. good, I have a question...
FC with small stamp - good?
big stamp - all bad, just toss the moment you find one?
or can I trust my own once-fired for another loading paying attention to primer pocket tension? I hand prime all my brass...
Pay attention to seating force, the problem can exist with any type head stamp, and do not use any brand of primer with thin primer cups. Any brand of primer with a cup thickness of .025 will not cause problems.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/calhoonprimers02_zpsb8295b11.png
Do not be fooled, the Federal cases below do not meet NATO requirements and you will not find the NATO stamp on the base of the case.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/federal556_zps8997eff9.jpg
Also note the primer backing out of the primer pocket problem is worse on carbine length gas systems because the port pressure is higher. Meaning residual pressure in the bore as the bolt moves to the rear forcing the primer out of the primer pocket.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/223plot_zps09faf288.jpg
So is the pitted bolt face in the pic showing what will happen if people shoot these loose fitting primed cases? How many rounds to do that damage? Tons of shooters bolts must look just like it if its such a problem with loose primer pockets, because not much time passes before every piece of 223/556 fired case that hits the ground is scooped up my local brass hawks and reloaded shot some more till they fail everywhere I go.
Nickn10, I know deep down inside you would feel better if you could shoot Ryno in the head with a bazooka, have him drawn and quartered, stretched on the rack, burned at the stake and have his library card revoked.
I myself thought his answers were insulting and uncalled for, but then again he might have graduated first in his class at the Attila the Hun School of Diplomacy and thought his caustic comments met diplomatic standards.
Someone said or I heard it in a song...."KILL'EM WITH KINDNESS".
Thanks for having my back Ed:thank_you2:
So is the pitted bolt face in the pic showing what will happen if people shoot these loose fitting primed cases? How many rounds to do that damage? Tons of shooters bolts must look just like it if its such a problem with loose primer pockets, because not much time passes before every piece of 223/556 fired case that hits the ground is scooped up my local brass hawks and reloaded shot some more till they fail everywhere I go.
Each pit or crater in the bolt face was caused by a "leaking" primer. The only range pickup brass I use is once fired that has a crimped primer and know its once fired.. The three buckets of .223/5.56 brass I picked up after the Police and SWAT teams were done were once fired and the "FIRST" time I have ever used range pickup brass.
I do not have any high pressure gas erosion on "ANY" of my firearms because any case with loose primer pocket ends up in my scrap brass bucket. I have never had a single case failure other than split necks because I do not load my practice ammunition "HOT".
What amazed me was what another poster said in the same thread. He stated he didn't toss his cases with loose primer pockets and it was cheaper to replace the bolt when the damage became severe enough. This is the mentality of people with hairy knuckles that drag on the ground when they walk.
If you pickup a cartridge case laying on the ground at the range you have no idea how many times the case was reloaded and by "WHO". Meaning it could have been reloaded by one of the hairy knuckle crowd. And a .223/5.56 case with a crimped primer laying on the ground or in a plastic bucket is another story.
I also don't use a bent paper clip to check for thinning in the base web area of my cases and can measure thinning in thousandths of an inch.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/RCBSCMG_zpsb95d3710.jpg
Someone said or I heard it in a song...."KILL'EM WITH KINDNESS".
Thanks for having my back Ed:thank_you2:
nickn10, don't tell anyone but one of my AR15 rifles is a DPMS A2 HBAR and anyone who doesn't like it can kiss my gluteus maximus. I traded a few noisy maggots for my DPMS AR15 and paid out a whopping $10.57 in out of pocket money. And the first Colt M16 rifles they handed us in the service all jammed and were a POS and it took over 40 years to forgive the design of this rifle.
I recently sold off a large WWII milsurp collection and bought modern firearms that have peep sights or the ability to mount scopes for people with chronologically gifted eye sight.
Below my beautiful and reliable DPMS A2 HBAR and a box of brand new Federal American Eagle ammunition that have loose primer pockets after the first firing.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/AR15_zps72eb36c3.jpg
P.S. We all know it was tongue and cheek humor directed at Ryno12, because any bazooka projectile hitting his head would have just bounce off and ricochet.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/LaughingSmiley_zps51f85375.gif
P.S. We all know it was tongue and cheek humor directed at Ryno12, because any bazooka projectile hitting his head would have just bounce off and ricochet.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/LaughingSmiley_zps51f85375.gif
Ed, the OP & I have both spoke our peace, apologized to each other & have moved on. I'd appreciate it if you could drop it & move forward please. Thank you.
Sent via Tapatalk
HackerF15E
10-30-13, 14:07
FC with small stamp - good?
big stamp - all bad, just toss the moment you find one?
I don't know if that's the answer, either.
I bought a bunch of reloading stuff at an estate sale that included a batch of large font FC brass that was labeled "4x fired".
Based on the internet reports, I ended up scrapping the stuff without taking any time to mic it and find out internal dimensions, but apparently before internet wisdom declared that all reloaded large font FC brass was an accident waiting to happen, some reloaders were apparently doing it successfully.
Is it mandated that Federal produce commercial brass that is reloadable 2-5 times without issues?
I'm not trying to be a smart ass but with budget ammo I wouldn't expect Hornady brass quality. There's a reason you find gobs of this brass at the range. If you're still buying Federal ammo to shoot and complaining because it supposedly has loose primer pockets after the first shot I don't get it :confused:
The mounds of brass without a NATO stamp or crimp that have been safely fired would tend to make me believe brass quality (EDIT: and condition) is more important than a stamp or crimp.
To the OP:
It may be a good idea to edit the thread title because it implies you had problems with Federal brass when it was only one round and was actually a loose primer pocket.
EDIT:
I will add that if there is a know issue with lots of brass then it would make sense to check it thoroughly or just give it to me. It's your prerogative. :p
I just don't think a blanket statement of all Federal brass is crap is accurate at all.
Is it mandated that Federal produce commercial brass that is reloadable 2-5 times without issues?
I'm not trying to be a smart ass but with budget ammo I wouldn't expect Hornady brass quality. There's a reason you find gobs of this brass at the range. If you're still buying Federal ammo to shoot and complaining because it supposedly has loose primer pockets after the first shot I don't get it :confused:
The mounds of brass without a NATO stamp or crimp that have been safely fired would tend to make me believe brass quality (EDIT: and condition) is more important than a stamp or crimp.
To the OP:
It may be a good idea to edit the thread title because it implies you had problems with Federal brass when it was only one round and was actually a loose primer pocket.
Will everyone who is too lazy to actually research the problem attributed to Fed brass just knock this shit off!!! reload what ever you want, I don't give a damn.
Psssst nickn10, I got your back covered so please don't tell anyone else about this. Someone reading my posts here sent me this link so I can check all my Federal primers and trash the bad ones the easy way.
Now remember don't tell any of the knuckle draggers about this secret, its only for the well informed, good looking, brilliant people who know Federal has a problem with soft brass and loose primer pockets. :haha:
Swage Gage Small Primer Pocket Gauge $9.99
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/primerpocketgauge_zps9ed585b1.jpg
Stop guessing about your primer pockets. Know for sure with the Swage Gage primer pocket gage.
Gunsmiths use "go" and "no-go" gages to measure chamber tolerances, and now you can bring this level of precision to your reloads with the Swage Gage primer pocket gage.
Have you ever wondered if you are swaging or chamfering enough to fully remove a military primer crimp? Wondered if a primer pocket was too loose to hold a primer properly? Wonder no more.
I created the prototype of this tool for my own use in brass processing. I needed a way to quickly and easily measure primer pockets that was reliable and did not require wasting a primer. This tool has been indispensable for me and I would never go back to the old method of uncertainty and guessing.
One side of this gage is the "go" side which quickly tells you the depth of a primer pocket, whether any crimp is properly removed, and whether the primer pocket is loose. If it feels loose on the "go" side, use the other end of the tool, the "no go" side, to test to see if the primer pocket is too loose to hold a primer. If the no-go slides into the pocket, then you know to junk that brass before it creates the mess that a missing primer can cause.
Useful for both precision reloaders who want to be sure of their reloads, and for Dillon 1050 users who need to know whether their auto-swage system is set up properly. Simply seating a primer in a piece of brass doesn't always tell you the whole story, since primers are subject to variations in size, they aren't a precision instrument.
This gage is for all small pistol and small rifle primer pockets. Precision ground from of O-1 tool steel.
http://ballistictools.com/store/swage-gage-small-primer-pocket
Pssst, I ordered mine before I posted the above. :sarcastic:
Thank you for your interest in Ballistic Tools, Inc. products. Your order has been received and will be processed once payment has been confirmed.
Swage Gage Small Primer Pocket Gauge $9.99
Whoever gets there firstest with the mostest wins. :dance3:
This message is to confirm your transaction with Ballistic Tools, Inc..
If you have any questions or concerns, please contact Ballistic Tools, Inc. at jgiglio@ballistictools.com. Please include the body of this message in any correspondence to Ballistic Tools, Inc. regarding this transaction.
Please do not reply to this message. This is simply a courtesy confirmation for your records and security.
Big Ed,
If you don't want to keep your once fired Federal brass send me a private message and I'll gladly pay you to ship it to me. I'm dead serious.
Thanks
Big Ed,
If you don't want to keep your once fired Federal brass send me a private message and I'll gladly pay you to ship it to me. I'm dead serious.
Thanks
Im with SixEight, very interested in a couple of dump truck loads of federal and range brass to put finishing touches on ammo fort.
When my primer pocket gauge gets here I will sell you all the once fired Federal cases I have with the stretched and oversize primer pockets.
I'm sure you will love it, the primer pockets will be swaged and uniformed and the flash holes deburred and uniformed. The only problem will be even the largest diameter primers will be too loose.
When my primer pocket gauge gets here I will sell you all the once fired Federal cases I have with the stretched and oversize primer pockets.
I'm sure you will love it, the primer pockets will be swaged and uniformed and the flash holes deburred and uniformed. The only problem will be even the largest diameter primers will be too loose.
I will take the brass as is. I do the swaging and uniforming myself. You definitely don't have to wait on the gauge to send it to me. How many once fired casings are we talking about and how soon could you get it ready to ship?
I will take the brass as is. I do the swaging and uniforming myself. You definitely don't have to wait on the gauge to send it to me. How many once fired casings are we talking about and how soon could you get it ready to ship?
I"m not selling the Federal brass to anyone, "ALL" my Federal brass was cleaned and prepped as stated above. When I started to prime the cases after all that prior work I was having a very high rejection rate for loose primer pockets. I tossed all the Federal brass back in the five gallon bucket, and prepped the two buckets of Remington and Lake City without a single problem.
In over 46 years of reloading prior to this I had never used or reloaded any Federal brass, all my brass had been Remington or Winchester. At the time I prepped all the Federal brass all I had was a .223 bolt action, and I was in the process of looking for a AR15. This Federal brass was originally fired 8 years ago and the brass is stamped FC 05 and I can tell you I'm not impressed with it. I also have read that Federal has since fixed the problem "BUT" I'm still reading about people having problems with soft Federal brass. This "Federal" experience left a bad taste in my mouth and I haven't done any work reloading with any newer Federal brass I have.
After having all the loose primer pockets with Federal brass I Googled the problem and wished I had checked before prepping all the cases. I want to make this very clear, I had sore fingers from uniforming the primer pockets on a five gallon bucket full of Federal brass and was a little ticked off about spending so much time and effort on poor quality Federal brass.
I was joking in my earlier posting thinking who in their right mind would buy brass with loose primer pockets.
There are a few methods for tightening primer pockets and I'm going to do more research and see if it worth the effort. "BUT" ANY Federal brass with a loose primer pocket is going to be sold as scrap where it belongs.
I don't get a very unusual rejection rate for Federal 223 brass due to loose pockets. Lake City without the NATO cross headstamps sucks worse than the Federal I've tried. I think the less amount of work hardening with that headstamp combined with the ridiculously hot load of XM193 just kills that brass too soon.
I cull mine when hand priming.... using my Sinclair, I get a really good feel for what brass is bad.
I'd love to make a mini desk top hammer forge that would hammer case heads back into spec and work harden them, etc. ;)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.