View Full Version : AR-15A4 (M-16 variant) body (baby) powder test.
Mauser KAR98K
10-26-13, 21:00
I did an experiment today using my AR-15A4 (M16A4 variant) using Gold Bond Body Powder (Talcum powder). This test is in regards to the this now locked thread: Lessons Learned.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=141174
In it, a member made a subtle request for some one to test their M4 with baby powder, powder that many vets report what the sand in Iraq and Afghanistan resembles.
I am going to make a disclaimer and say I have NEVER served in OEF and OIF. EVER. Wanted to go, but Uncle Sam said no due to medical reasons. I am an avid shooter with some Law Enforcement experience during my youth with not enough life experience. What was requested was somewhat of a challenge for me to see first hand what one of my ARs will do with crap in the chamber.
Weapon, Magazines, Lube, and Powder: What was Used, and Thoughts
I used my AR15A4. It is:
Bushmaster lower with A2 stock. 1990s receiver and components with aftermarket trigger (ALS trigger).
BCM A4 20" upper, mil-spec.
BCM full-auto bolt carrier group.
ETA: Action spring is a JP Enterprises low-mass spring (non-mil-spec).
Magazines were a Colt magazine with a black follower, and a Brownells GI magazine with a green follower. The colt has been run a lot without being serviced, while the Brownells has had probably less than 300 rounds through it without servicing.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/10503518934_39b66c0055_z.jpg
Lube used was an off the shelf can of CLP, and Slip 2000.
Gold Bond Body Powder.
I am going to make a note on using talcum/baby/body powder, which brings up a big stipulation of the test: Talcum powder dissolves. I saw areas where I had lubed and the powder seem to dissolve after application, but was still turning into gunk.
Test Procedures and Testing.
The first and second tests were done with a clean rifle. First test was done without lube (except the gas rings). Second test was done with a light coat of CLP. Third test was done with heavy SLIP 2000 application.
Baby powder was applied to:
BCG.
Inside the chamber.
Outside on the receiver.
Bolt was cycled several times to get powder in the bolt and chamber.
Test #1:
45 rounds with no lube in the rifle; powder on BCG and inside chamber
(Note: I did give some lube on the gas rings).
I cleaned the rifle to almost an inspection level. My goal was to get as much lube out of the weapon. I used M-Pro-7's degreaser and then flushed the bolt and upper out with carburetor cleaner. This pretty much made my rifle dry.
Bolt:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3702/10501902296_a4e21e2395_b.jpg
Rifle and chamber:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7306/10501880465_7959a602e5_b.jpg
Powder on BCG and rifle:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5490/10501817435_529870058e_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7322/10501857014_47ff066b68_b.jpg
Observations:
First round failed to chamber from a loaded, seated mag, running the charging handle. Bolt failed to close into battery, but did pick up the first round. Forward assist also was a no-go! It would not push the bolt into battery. After pulling the charging handle slightly back, it closed into battery. (Still gave a push on the forward assist).
Fired all 45 rounds without failure doing slow fire and rapid fire stints at a 10 yard target. (30 rounds through green follower mag, 15 rounds through black follower mag).
After field stripping rifle and bolt down, the powder was pretty much blown out. Also did note some lube around the bolt head and chamber (didn't get it all). Also to note, some baby powder had burned and stuck in the chamber and on the bolt.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3789/10502426304_048baf7a1e_b.jpg
Bolt after firing:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2808/10502713963_fb4ace287c_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/10502691733_0aa187e813_b.jpg
Chamber after firing:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7343/10502468025_c1175b958a_b.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3789/10502445615_b040204bce_b.jpg
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2833/10502435546_1e58524bd8_b.jpg
Mauser KAR98K
10-26-13, 21:01
Part 2:
Test #2
Bolt and chamber cleaned. CLP applied very lightly to BCG's surface. Baby powder applied all over BCG and chamber.
Observations:
45 rounds fired without malfunctions.
No problems chambering first round on loaded mag using the charging handle. Powder was caked some, but the rest had been blown out. The bolt also seemed a little dry than when I placed the baby powder on it and reassembled the rifle.
I did not these black clumps that actually came off the BCG and out of the chamber. These "clumps" were the size of very small pebbles.
Bolt:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2876/10503045323_4a0d1be384_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7433/10503177654_7563f637a8_b.jpg
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5510/10503068493_6dd6f38e9f_b.jpg
Chamber:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3698/10503147125_ef51ce14d9_b.jpg
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2825/10503121566_7da5ac175d_b.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3681/10503298793_17719ab835_b.jpg
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2843/10503059985_e257daf75f_b.jpg
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5520/10503039786_08b7b1baba_b.jpg
Test#3
BCG heavily lubed with SLIP 2000. Gas rings, bolt head, cam-lock, outside of BCG, and charging handle. baby powder was then applied to bolt and chamber., then cycled, and added more baby powder
Bolt:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/10503032074_c9d1a34865_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/10502969995_cde3e4ec40_b.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3715/10502950765_9574c2a399_b.jpg
Powder on bolt:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7306/10503135153_2e6e5aff95_b.jpg
60 rounds fired without malfunctions.
Observations:
First round chambered on loaded mag with charging handle without problems. Went through the two magazines without failure. I had put more baby powder in this as I was wanting the excessive lube to really get the powder to gum up BCG. No problems whatsoever. Even went through my last mag without a problem. Ran the rifle hard.
Bolt was still kinda gunky after pulling it from the upper. Powder was either blown away, or possibly dissolved. Powder still exist in the chamber and bolt. I also noted more of these black clumps that actually came off the BCG and out of the chamber. There were fewer that I observed, but I will clean the rifle later tonight and take note if I see more.
Bolt:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2862/10503479365_cf1ff84e41_b.jpg
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2827/10503652153_0410635901_b.jpg
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/10503365905_fb23fdfcf6_b.jpg
Chamber:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2806/10503434174_87305f81d2_b.jpg
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5482/10503605103_e93a653018_b.jpg
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5480/10503383895_90436deecc_b.jpg
Conclusion:
This test and experiment is not the end all, be all. Since baby powder (body powder in this instance) dissolves, I am not fully convinced that heavy lube will keep the BCG from sticking. However, with the amount of gunk I had observed before-and-after the 90 rounds fired, I was expecting to experience a failure of some sort or at some point. None was to be had.
I also did experience any failures with all three tests, save for the failure for the bolt to go into battery. it did pick up the round but it did not fully chamber. Very surprisingly the forward assist felt blocked/locked and I could not push the bolt into battery. I was expecting the action spring to help in this (it was the far out of battery). With a little take up on the charging handle and release, the bolt went into battery. I did not see the bolt be pushed into battery with the two hard taps of the forward assist.
Both magazines functioned well.
With all this, I will still heavily lube my bolt. I can see more odds of malfunction with a dry weapon over a slightly lubed weapon. The failure to go into battery should make this evident it is not wise to run your AR dry, no matter the environment. Though the baby powder was blown out, a heavier grain of dust, sand or dirt could have seized the bolt at some point while also damaging it by scratching the surface areas inside the action and chamber. Lube is to help the dirt get pushed around easier while the BCG is cycling. Also not the some of the dust will be blown out as the baby powder in these experiments were.
the only critical flaw in this experiment is the baby powder itself. i did observe the baby powder being dissolved when it was applied to a wet BCG and chamber. I did not observe excessive "gunk" either on the BCG or the chamber. A better substance for this test is probably needed to see any type of real performance issues running the AR/M4 system in these three test conditions.
Lastly, these tests were done immediately when the bolt was placed back in and the weapon chambered. Another test that could be performed is to have three weapons that are the same, one dry, one lightly lubed and the other heavily lubed chamber with a round and magazine and stored with either dust or powder on the BCG and in the chamber. Then have all three rifles sit for either a few hour or a few days, then conduct the tests. This recommendation could give more of a realistic operating scenario that is found in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Observations with the aforementioned thread that brought this test up: either the forum members problems could have stemmed from bad magazines that were worn out, parts on his issued weapon were also worn out and needed replacing, or a combination of all including maintenance. Another observation could be the light application of lubricant (CLP) that could have dried, or collected the dust in more copious amounts, and caused some of the failures. The test with the complete dry weapon did produce a failure of the round to be chambered into battery, and failure of the forward assist to remedy the problem. The powder being blow-out with the cycling after firing of the weapon, however, can not be overlooked, which leads me to believe it was either a magazine issue, or worn out parts.
Lube your weapons; check your magazines.
Heavy Metal
10-26-13, 21:23
Baby powder is corn starch and talc. The corn starch was dissolving.
The talc like dust in parts of Iraq were most likely derived from the weathering of shale and other clay-bearing minerals. A soil is reflective of the parent material from which it was derived. Sandstone for sand, siltstone from silt and shale for clay.
Layman call it all sand but the talc-like stuff is more of a clay dust. In geology and soils science, soil particle asre based on size, from sand, down to silt and then down to clay at the smallest level and the combinaton of the three.
My advice to you is find a piece of shale and get a mortar and pestal or find some clay soil and bake it dry if you want to emulate the stuff from over there.
Mauser KAR98K
10-26-13, 21:26
Baby powder is corn starch and talc. The corn starch was dissolving.
The talc like dust in parts of Iraq were most likely derived from the weathering of shale and other clay-bearing minerals. A soil is reflective of the parent material from which it was derived. Sandstone for sand, siltstone from silt and shale for clay.
Layman call it all sand but the talc-like stuff is more of a clay dust. In geology and soils science, soil particle asre based on size, from sand, down to silt and then down to clay at the smallest level and the combinaton of the three.
My advice to you is find a piece of shale and get a mortar and pestal or find some clay soil and bake it dry if you want to emulate the stuff from over there.
I live in TN; surrounded by clay. I might come up with something.
I appreciate you taking the time to do this test. Like you said, it might not be the be all, end all test of these sorts, but it's definitely a data point. I fall into the "better run it wet" camp. There's so much data to support that being the right way to go.
Did you take it to the car wash and hose it off after all that? :D
Mauser KAR98K
10-27-13, 00:23
I appreciate you taking the time to do this test. Like you said, it might not be the be all, end all test of these sorts, but it's definitely a data point. I fall into the "better run it wet" camp. There's so much data to support that being the right way to go.
Did you take it to the car wash and hose it off after all that? :D
No, I did a quick clean. need to get some more powder blaster to blast the...baby powder off my rifle. this thing is going to smell like a day care when I shoot it for awhile.
mastiffhound
10-27-13, 00:29
I was very interested in this, I keep my ARs wet also. One thought though, our road is gravel with a very high content of limestone and clay. The stuff that sticks to my Audi is very fine and when wet it hardens, making it very hard to remove. I have to get point blank with a pressure washer at the local car wash to remove it. In the spring we have to dust constantly if we leave the windows open or the whole inside of the house is coated with this stuff. It has to be pretty fine to carry 120 yards or so from the road, through the screens and into my house. I wonder if this is a closer match to the fine particulate over in A'stan or Iraq? It's at least as fine as powdered sugar, probably even finer.
Thanks for the info and taking one for the team. I couldn't bring myself to dump foreign material into my AR. If you have any gravel roads available and could stand to do it I wonder if you might get the same results?
I live in TN; surrounded by clay. I might come up with something.Ya could get some clay, dry it completely out, grind into fine powder. This on heavily oiled BCG (hell maybe splash some little H2O to reconstitute clay for good measure) might give interesting results. Would really like to see this on AR, have seen Southern red clay gum up many a machines works. Thanks for info and sacrificing your AR for our educational benefits :p
justin_247
10-27-13, 01:07
This is a really dumb test.
The individual in that thread wasn't saying that the Iraqi sand was like baby powder. He was saying that it was as fine as baby powder. BIG DIFFERENCE.
I would like to see you pat down your butt with Iraqi sand.
There are places in the U.S that have fine powdery sand. Ultimately I will reiterate that in my experience if you keep your weapon lubed with quality lubricant it will continue to run.
This is a really dumb test.
The individual in that thread wasn't saying that the Iraqi sand was like baby powder. He was saying that it was as fine as baby powder. BIG DIFFERENCE.
I would like to see you pat down your butt with Iraqi sand.
That request could put you under homo suspicion...that is something I definitely do not want to see.
vicious_cb
10-27-13, 07:52
Great to see people going out and testing things for themselves. However you experimental procedure could use some work and would allow you to make some real conclusions from your tests.
Some procedure errors I saw in the experiment:
1. The need to test different variables separately. In your experiment you stated that you powdered BOTH the chamber and the BCG. Because of this, now its impossible to determine what caused the failure to seat the bolt. Was it the extra friction of the bolt? Was it the dirty chamber or the combination of the two?
2. In the first test you stated that you lubed the gas rings slightly. This is NOT a lubeless test then. Considering you just lubed one of the most important areas in the gun it pretty much invalidates the results of the first test completely which is the most important part of your experiment because the lubeless test was supposed to be your CONTROL.
3. In your second test you stated cleaned the bolt and carrier then applied CLP to the OUTSIDE of the BCG. It is unclear to the reader if you applied any lube to the bolt, assuming you did not apply lube to the bolt and ONLY to the outside of the carrier, were there to be a malfunction how would we know if it was caused by the lack of lube to the bolt or lube holding too much powder?
4. You deviate by adding more powder in your 3rd test which did not happen in the first 2. If a malfunction were to occur how would you know what amount of powder it would take to cause it?
Some suggestions. Start with a hypothesis you want to test and stick to it. For example, "Lubrication on the outside of the bolt will prevent malfunctions when encountering powder like sandy environments." Then develop an experiment which tests ONLY that hypothesis. If you want to test something else state, "Powder in the chamber causes malfunctions." Then test only that. Do not mix your experiments together as you can never really determine what is causing what.
A simpler experiment would go something like this:
Start with 3 numbered ziplock bags full of powder.
Test 1: Take a clean and completely dry and degreased BCG, throw it in bag 1 and shake it around for X amount of time. Remove and insert into upper and fire X amount of rounds.
Test 2: Take a lightly lubed BCG(define lightly), throw it in bag 2 and shake it for X amount of time. Remove, insert and fire X amount of rounds.
Test 3: Take a heavily lubed BCG(define heavy), throw it in bag 3 and shake it for X amount of time. Remove, insert and fire X amount to rounds.
Heavy Metal
10-27-13, 10:17
There are places in the U.S that have fine powdery sand. Ultimately I will reiterate that in my experience if you keep your weapon lubed with quality lubricant it will continue to run.
I agree.
I think this all comes from being that is is far easier to remove dust from a bone dry weapon than a wet one.
People are showing a preference for ease of cleaining vs quality of performance.
IMO, being wet does two things:
1) It lubricates those tiny, angular debris particles and helps suspend them.
2) It provides a medium to transport debris from the contact surfaces.
Ground up kitty litter may make a good test dust substitute.
I believe it is mostly clay and should reduce to a fine powder when ground.
That was my off hand coment, thanks for doing it! Like I said, if I had a close outdoor range...
Hope you didnt screw up your weapon trying this out.
High Tower
10-27-13, 14:43
That request could put you under homo suspicion...that is something I definitely do not want to see.
As long as its done on Thursday you're good to go. ;)
This issue may come down to certain areas where people were in Iraq. I was in and around Baghdad and I kept a spray bottle in the turret with me. M4 and M2 or 240 got a heavy dosing before loading up. Everything was always coated with sand dust and some raised their eyebrows at my practice but they ran. All weapon systems were cleaned after every mission.
The only issues I had was when I didn't clean my mags often enough. And yes, that includes PMags.
Ground up kitty litter may make a good test dust substitute.
I believe it is mostly clay and should reduce to a fine powder when ground.
Used cat litter will give you the feeling you are on a military deployment.
Used cat litter will give you the feeling you are on a military deployment.
But you need to drink 3 Rip Its before you do the test.
During my 5 years in country I was in various locations- Al Anbar Province, Baghdad and Basrah AO.
Al Anbar was probably the worst due to sandstorms and the type of powdery dust that was encountered. Especially when I would go back and forth to Al Asad.
I used Militec almost exclusively in that time. I had started using it in the 04 time frame when I was stationed in Bahrain.
As long as its done on Thursday you're good to go. ;)
This issue may come down to certain areas where people were in Iraq. I was in and around Baghdad and I kept a spray bottle in the turret with me. M4 and M2 or 240 got a heavy dosing before loading up. Everything was always coated with sand dust and some raised their eyebrows at my practice but they ran. All weapon systems were cleaned after every mission.
The only issues I had was when I didn't clean my mags often enough. And yes, that includes PMags.
skullworks
10-28-13, 06:03
I used my AR15A4. It is:
ETA: Action spring is a JP Enterprises low-mass spring (non-mil-spec).
The buffer is still a standard rifle buffer then; not the LMOS version?
That fine sand that is used underneath driveway pavers is pretty close to the consistency I remember the sand in Basrah being. Pour a few handfuls of that in your receiver and see what happens.
Archer1440
10-29-13, 07:25
Considering that talc itself has lubricant properties, I wouldn't put too much weight on this test.
Freedoooom
10-29-13, 15:03
Baby powder is great for removing sand, not mimicking it.
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