View Full Version : Unhappy with my M1A
I have been tinkering with it for awhile now. it's really fun to shoot but I'm not getting the accuracy I would like. Should I sell it and replaced it with a scar?
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Army Chief
10-26-13, 22:19
What would you use the SCAR for that you currently do not, or can not use the M1A for? Seems like you can spend a moderate amount of money trying to make the M1A what you wish for it to be, or a lot of money trying to make the SCAR what you hope it might otherwise be. Without knowing the intended role, it is hard to recommend the right tool, though it sounds like you really just want to get a SCAR to be (as opposed to some kind of M1A EBR upgrade).
AC
BrigandTwoFour
10-26-13, 22:51
I have been tinkering with it for awhile now. it's really fun to shoot but I'm not getting the accuracy I would like. Should I sell it and replaced it with a scar?
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What kind of accuracy would you like?
The M14/M1A platform is not known for accuracy out of the box. It typically takes several thousand dollars in parts and gunsmith work to make it perform at a high level of accuracy. And then you have to spend more money to maintain it there.
It's certainly good enough for most work, but I would certainly not put it in the same use category as a precision bolt gun. I don't have much experience with the SCAR, but I don't think it would be much better, either.
If you want a precision semi .308, and you're willing to spend the money on something like a SCAR, why not just go with GAP or Larue? Hell, pick up a matched Mega MA-TEN set and build it up yourself with a Rainier Ultramatch barrel. Those would certainly provide you better better accuracy than either the M1A or SCAR.
SCAR's going to get you a free floated barrel and ergonomics designed for optics right out of the box, along with light weight.
I abandoned my M1A a decade ago and have never missed it.
H
How much would you get selling your M1A?
How much would it cost to upgrade your M1A?
How much would it cost to setup a SCAR?
I have 2 7.62 SCARs, neither will shoot better than 1.75 MOA. It's not cheap to get a custom barrel made for a SCAR, there's other precision considerations that cost $$$ as well.
If you're dead set on replacing the M1A, I don't think a SCAR is your best option. I'd really recommend an 7.62 AR pattern gun.
i personally love my SCAR 17 and get sub MOA at 100 yards without a problem but thats with an upgraded G trigger and hand loaded ammo for more accuracy... if you really want it I say do it, but if there are options or modifications that can be done to your current rifle to achieve the same results without spending the extra cash, I say at least to try it..
OP, I don't think you provided enough information.
What kind of accuracy are you getting?
What kind of accuracy do you want?
If accuracy is your objective, why do you want a SCAR?
Have you ruled yourself out?
What have you done to your M1 to improve accuracy? Are there other things you would be willing to do?
What kind of shooting are you doing?
More information would be helpful. If in the end, you just really want a SCAR buy one. However, as noted above, there are probably better alternatives out there if accuracy is your objective.
OP, I don't think you provided enough information.
What kind of accuracy are you getting?
What kind of accuracy do you want?
If accuracy is your objective, why do you want a SCAR?
Have you ruled yourself out?
What have you done to your M1 to improve accuracy? Are there other things you would be willing to do?
What kind of shooting are you doing?
Answers to the above questions would help.
Will you be using primarily optics or iron sights on the rifle?
Good questions. The short of it I will be using this rifle like a Designated Marksman, approximate range of 600-800 meters. My M1A currently shoots 3-4 MOA I am looking to get something like1-2 MOA. I will post more info on the work I've already done to the M1A when I get back from church.
Dan
With good ammunition a tuned M1A should shoot 2 MOA or better.
Shim the gas cylinder, bed the action to the stock and you should see marked improvement. I experimented with a Schuester adjustable gas cylinder plug and it made a noticeable difference as well.
Proper lubrication also makes a difference.
If you are using optics, a cheekpiece for consistent stockweld is a must.
I've got a SA loaded SS M1A that has a unitized gas cylinder, NM guide rod, trigger work, glued top hand guard, an SE optics mount, a DW cheek piece, in the factory glass stock, not bedded. It will do 1 to 1 1/4 MOA on a good day with Fed GMM after all that fiddling around.
I've also got a SOCOM in a VLTOR stock that shoots 2 MOA without all the extra work, but I consider that lucky. 2.5-3 MOA with ball.
They work well, but I haven't shot either in years. It's a great platform, although there's some voodoo involved in making it meet modern expectations.
If you like the platform, you can get it to do what you want it to do, so long as your barrel is up to it, and your wallet holds out. There are easier, less expensive, and more certain ways to get to a 600-800 yd capable DMR, though.
BrigandTwoFour
10-27-13, 11:30
With good ammunition a tuned M1A should shoot 2 MOA or better.
Shim the gas cylinder, bed the action to the stock and you should see marked improvement. I experimented with a Schuester adjustable gas cylinder plug and it made a noticeable difference as well.
Proper lubrication also makes a difference.
If you are using optics, a cheekpiece for consistent stockweld is a must.
Agreed. 2 MOA or better is easily done with an M1A.
Before shimming up the gas system (which can cost quite a bit of $$), invest in some other modifications like a Sadlak NM guide rod and a quality scope mount setup. I run a JAE-100, which helps a lot, but it is very spendy. What stock/chassis is that in the OP picture? It may help to bed it. After all of that, start considering playing with the gas system (which, frankly, I would tack onto a rebarrel job to just do it all at once)
Gas cylinder shim kits can be had for less than $20. They are not difficult or time consuming to install by someone with experience with the M1A. Getting the desired gap between the barrel band and stock ferrule has a positive effect on accuracy.
Sadlak makes a nice NM operating spring guide rod, but a few M1A's I have owned shot really well with the stock guide rod.
Over the years I have picked up M1A rifles that previous owners said would not shoot accurately and was able to get them to shoot under 2 MOA for less than $200.
I think that proper maintenance, a few minor adjustments and a good shooting coach are the most significant factors in shooting accurately.
If you want a SCAR 17, get a SCAR 17. Mine is close to 1 MOA w/ 168gr ammo if I want to try to shoot tiny groups, but it's not what I bought it for. If I wanted a precision semi auto I'd have probably bought a LMT MWS.
The M1A/M14 is a great rifle but it's long in the tooth and requires work and $$$ to get as accurate as some modern rifles are out of the box.
What you want a weapon for / to do for you are critical. Trade offs are part of the game - cost ~ accuracy ~ weight ~ reliability ~ ease of maintenance ~ ergos ~ etc, etc, etc...
Here is some back ground info on the situation of my M1A. As seen in the picture that is a Troy MCS stock. I choose it because of the secure top rail to mount the scope, the modularity with M4 furniture and the aluminum bedding. All screws are blue Loctited, I even added some epoxy to the top rail to ensure a good tight mounted scope. I have shimmed the gas system, but I can not unitize it because of the stock. The trigger has been tuned by Bill Springfield. I have also added a USCG muzzle break and fire lapped the barrel. It is sporting a Bushnell Elite 3200 10x scope. Really the only things I can think to do still are add a Sadlak NM spring rod guide, experiment with more hand loads and take it to a gunsmith to trouble shoot it. There is always a 1% chance that I did not put the USCG muzzle break on correctly or the shims and that is cause my accuracy problems. I do enjoy tinkering with this rifle and it is fun to shoot but I am growing tired of troubleshooting every time i go to the range and not being able to work on my skills.
As for my skills, I am military with some formal long range shooting training. Last time I was at the range I shot 4 moa out of my gun and 1 moa out of my brothers Remington 700. So I am confident in my ability.
With out looking at the market I think I could get about $2000 for it. Im sure I would have to add some to that to get a SCAR. Really all I want is a .308 semiauto that is more accurate out of the box. I admit i like the idea of the SCAR because it is new and flashy, but I also like the modularity with the left side charging handle and free floated barrel.
A close friend had his M1A receiver group installed in a similar chassis with a nice scope and he shot 3 MOA at 300 yards with the rifle. In the original M1A stock I could shoot well under 2 MOA out to 300 yards with the same ammunition and iron sights. He sold his M1A and bought a LAR-8. Using the same glass and ammunition he now shoots under 1 MOA at 300 yards.
I cut my teeth on the M-14 and love shooting the M1A platform. A M1A is a great rifle, but it may not fit your needs.
If you want a scoped semi-automatic .308 rifle that will shoot at or under 1 MOA, I would suggest buying something built on the AR-10 platform.
Unless technology somehow changes, all semi autos are harder to drive than bolt guns.
I've seen first hand when that scope has caused issues. I'm not saying that's the case, but I wouldn't overlook it.
Fire lapped barrels are hit and miss, I wouldn't rule that out either.
If you can find a good M1A smith locally, that would be my first recommendation.
misanthropist
10-27-13, 16:29
IMO most of the basics can be done to a 14 for next to nothing.
Pop the gas cylinder off and take a spring punch to the surface of the barrel to give the surface enough texture to pin the cylinder in place when you tap it carefully back on
Shim the gas system (how can this get expensive???)
Spring guide
Swing by a welder who's good on TIG and offer him a beer to unitize the gas system
In my experience (building dozens of M14s) that will drive most below 2 MOA pretty fast for very little investment.
With the Troy MCS, well, you've already sunk in a substantial amount of money. For the amount you've got in your gun, I'd probably sell it and move on.
None of mine have ever had much more than about $600 in them. Well, I guess I put a thousand bucks in to one, once. But I sold it shortly after.
Charlie Don't Surf
10-27-13, 17:18
I have been tinkering with it for awhile now. it's really fun to shoot but I'm not getting the accuracy I would like. Should I sell it and replaced it with a scar?
[img] https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OYCPghGHoWs/T7kJ9V7dBwI/AAAAAAAAAWM/nQE2OCPOKAM/s912/IMAG0390.jpg[\img]
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Make sure the tension screws under the trigger pack are as tight as possible against the pack. My groups really tightened up after I did that. There should be zero barrel play.
My SOCOM16 does 2moa or better in factory form. Something may be amiss with your rifle. There's lots of M14/M1A knowledge on the web, so check out the M14 forums.. Good Luck..
Charlie, my owners manual says to tighten the tension screws only enough so that as the trigger guard closes, the tension should start when the fastening end of the trigger guard is 1/4 inch from the tip of the trigger. Are u saying you found better results by tightening these screws more?
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Charlie Don't Surf
10-28-13, 12:57
Charlie, my owners manual says to tighten the tension screws only enough so that as the trigger guard closes, the tension should start when the fastening end of the trigger guard is 1/4 inch from the tip of the trigger. Are u saying you found better results by tightening these screws more?
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I still had play in my barrel, so I tightened the screws more so it was somewhat difficult to close the trigger guard. If your barrel has some slop to it, give it a try.
If you are searching for the best possible accuracy in a 308 semi-auto, I would go LR-308/AR-10 route. None of the M1A fiddling is necessary to get one of these to shoot. No shimming, no bedding, no tensioning. In addition, they are much more compatible with optics and don't require any of the silly mounts necessary for an M1A.
For example, I built a 308 AR recently. Bolted on barrel, installed FF rail, and assembled the rest like a standard AR. Went to range, proceeded to shoot an AVERAGE group size of 1.5 MOA (5 shot groups) between various different handloads I had laying around. Best was ~0.9 MOA, with 4 of the 5 within 0.5 MOA . This was with a Criterion 20" barrel (basically a budget Krieger, ~$300), straight out of the box with no barrel break-in. I shudder to think what is possible with a really nice Krieger or Lilja barrel instead.
If you like fiddling with stuff, are nostalgic, or have some other vested interest in the M1A platform, perhaps then it would be worth persisting with it. Otherwise I would say go 308 AR platform. They have all the ingredients for accuracy and reliability has improved as well with the advent of better mags.
Army Chief
10-28-13, 15:55
I was thinking to myself the other night that this really did seem to be more about wanting a SCAR than not being happy with the M1A, but the point is moot -- and I certainly "get it," either way. Long ago, I had my M1A glass-bedded because you are supposed to have your M1A glass-bedded, and then put it away before ever bothering to really determine the true accuracy potential of the gun. Still sitting in the safe. No idea how good or bad it is. Never got around to really putting the gun to the test.
Of course, if I wanted to work at those distances (600m-800m+), I think I'd be another guy considering something other than the SCAR ... like an SR-25. Not because I don't think that the SCAR in 7.62 is the cat's pajamas, but because I tend to view it as more of an all-around gun than a dedicated intermediate/distance precision rig.
One might make the same argument for the SR-25, I suppose, but it just strikes me as a more appropriate tool for that particular job, given the basic configuration. I had a SCAR-16 once upon a time, and was always trying to figure out what I wanted to "turn it into." I suspect I would have been left with the same quandary had I been looking at a SCAR-17. Buy one for the long fight, and then watch yourself turn it into an SBR. Just too many possibilities. ;)
AC
I agree with AC 100%.
I personally know what it's like to try fight a platform until you get frustrated enough to think about starting with some other platform altogether. Sometimes though, with persistence you get there, sometimes you don't.
Personally, with this much investment, I'd still look at improving what you have. If it was me, I'd try to reach out to as many knowledgable people to try to work this out before throwing in the towel.
If that fails, for the role I'm thinking you are trying to do, I'd go with a 7.62 AR platform. Without loosing too much, you could step into a LMT platform. If you have the extra cash, a KAC is definitely an upgrade. The newer KAC models can deliver in accuracy and reliability.
Just something to consider...
After reading all the great advice I have come to the realization that I am lying on a couch spewing my issues out and you guys are my gun therapist. Serious, great information guys. I think in the long run something in the AR10 family will suit my needs best. However, I recently moved to the horrible state known as Maryland and with the new gun laws, that I forget about, I cannot buy an "assult rifle." so until I have a chance to buy out of state legally I will continue to trouble shoot the M1A.
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Army Chief
10-28-13, 20:12
After reading all the great advice I have come to the realization that I am lying on a couch spewing my issues out and you guys are my gun therapist. Serious, great information guys. I think in the long run something in the AR10 family will suit my needs best. However, I recently moved to the horrible state known as Maryland and with the new gun laws, that I forget about, I cannot buy an "assult rifle." so until I have a chance to buy out of state legally I will continue to trouble shoot the M1A.
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Maybe the guys at Fulton Armory will be able to get you all fixed-up. They would certainly be worth getting to know, since they are in the neighborhood.
AC
Do some research and you will find there are a number of low cost accuracy improvements you can make. There is a dedicated internet forum for this rifle and it's filled with good info. good luck.
I ran into this identical issue. Was getting 4MOA accuracy out of my M1A at best. Sold it and got a SCAR 17s. Best decision I ever made. Getting 1/2 MOA out of my SCAR with FGMM 168gr. Do it and you'll never regret it!
Devildawg2531
11-10-13, 17:12
I ran into this identical issue. Was getting 4MOA accuracy out of my M1A at best. Sold it and got a SCAR 17s. Best decision I ever made. Getting 1/2 MOA out of my SCAR with FGMM 168gr. Do it and you'll never regret it!
WOW! Are you saying you avg .5 MOA from your SCAR???? Was this 1 time with a 3 shot group?? How many shot's constitute your group? Is your's a stock SCAR / what setup? The SCAR 17's that I have shot have (stock) have been about a1.5 MOA gun with match ammo (10 shot groups).
To the op I was in a similiar situation with my M1A and put a bunch of money into improving it and still found it to be heavy and ergonoimcally clunky so I sold it and am planning on an AR platform for my 7.62x51 (unless SCAR's are now being made as stated above that are .5 MOA - if that's the case I'm buying a SCAR this week).
WOW! Are you saying you avg .5 MOA from your SCAR???? Was this 1 time with a 3 shot group?? How many shot's constitute your group? Is your's a stock SCAR / what setup? The SCAR 17's that I have shot have (stock) have been about a1.5 MOA gun with match ammo (10 shot groups).
To the op I was in a similiar situation with my M1A and put a bunch of money into improving it and still found it to be heavy and ergonoimcally clunky so I sold it and am planning on an AR platform for my 7.62x51 (unless SCAR's are now being made as stated above that are .5 MOA - if that's the case I'm buying a SCAR this week).
My best 3 shot group to date is .43 inches. I've had multiple .50-.55 groups. Nearly every group is 1MOA or under with 168FGMM. Using a Vortex PST 4-16, Geissele trigger, and Vortex flash hider. Other than that it's totally stock.
I purchased a M1A many years ago for $375. I think this was when they first hit the market in 78 or 79. It held groups really well and was a pleasure to shoot. The trouble I had was with the op rod. It would wear in the groove where the bolt roller fit. About every 200 rounds I would call up SA and they would replace the op rod and sometimes the bolt. I finally got rid of the rifle and have never trusted the M1A since.
pentosinjunkie
11-18-13, 08:50
After reading all the great advice I have come to the realization that I am lying on a couch spewing my issues out and you guys are my gun therapist. Serious, great information guys. I think in the long run something in the AR10 family will suit my needs best. However, I recently moved to the horrible state known as Maryland and with the new gun laws, that I forget about, I cannot buy an "assult rifle." so until I have a chance to buy out of state legally I will continue to trouble shoot the M1A.
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You can buy all of the AR10 pattern rifles you want in MD. Totally unaffected by SB281; they are over the counter on a 4473. The SCARs are similarly unaffected.
There is a great deal of misunderstanding om the interwebs, even on affectionado sites like M4C, regarding MD gun laws both before and after SB281.
I recommend Engage Armament in Rockville.
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