View Full Version : new guy here needing some help
Almost everything you asked can be answered by looking around this site as most have been discussed at least once here and there. However, here's my take.
People are reporting 1 MOA from the 14.5" N4s. I would not be concerned with getting better accuracy than that for what you want to do. Longer barrel life and lighter weight are more important.
I don't think the VIS is worth the extra money, but remember that the VIS is a different upper as well as the rail which is part of the upper. It's not simply a rail. personally, I'd buy the basic and add a DD or Larue rail later depending on what you like.
Just use the Troy flipup rear. You can run it locked in the up position if you decide that's what you need and it will be compatible with the magnifier if you add one.
Lower 1/3 is best especially if you choose to run the rear locked up.
They do make night sights but you will find it distracting when seen through a red dot optic. Don't waste your money.
No, you're not going to be "just removing the FH". They are much more than hand tight and must be much more than hand tight. Marines are clearing dwellings in Iraq with 20" A4s. You'll be fine with the 16" if that's what you train with.
I believe Noveske is offering the AAC Blackout (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=12798) which would be my choice. No, you're not going to bend a tine.
Go with Aimpoint over Eotech, all day long. Grant from G&R can get you hooked up with an Aimpoint C3 and a high quality mount for $450. Best deal going.
Take a look at the Surefire X300 as a weaponlight. Very adaptable to many different applications. GG&G and Midwest Industries, as well as others, make mounts that will allow you to attach the light to the FSB.
I'd go with the new Vickers padded BFG sling, or the non-padded version of the same.
The stock is good to go, but the Vltor Emod is better and is a $25 upgrade IIRC. Opt for the Emod.
Magpul Pmags are the current flavor of choice with good reason. Buy at least 10 immediately.
I would use the department mandated ammo for all purposes and find a cheaper alternative for training and plinking that matches POI as much as possible. Heavier rounds are likely to have a different POI and you'll be chasing your zero all over the place.
Just pick up a rod, a patch holder, a chamber brush, and various other toothbrushes and such. No need to go crazy. Lube it very liberally with something like Slip 2000 and keep it wet.
Eventually you may want to add a railed forend, but I think you'll find that the midlength gas system and standard handguards will serve you very well.
thanks for your reply. does the m203 notch cause bad barrel harmonics?
Not that you're going to notice. Maybe in some theorectical internet way, but not in any practical way.
so you're saying stainless is not worth it and the recon is more of a match rifle?
I'm saying stainless isn't worth it to me. Unless you're going to pony up and shoot match ammo the stainless is probably not worth it to you either.
is the recce g2g or do you prefer the 14.5 n4?
It depends on the purpose. I think the Recce is a better "general purpose" rifle, but the 14.5 has it's place as well. If I was only buying one it would be the 16".
what contour is the barrel on the recce? they say improved. does that mean government profile or hbar?
It's the same as the 14.5". The 14.5 was designed to be the same weight as an M4 barrel but with one consistent diameter the whole length instead of the sillines of the M4 barrel profile.
do you really get any more performance out of the 16 in or shoud i stick with a 14.5?
I don't know what you should do since I'm not exactly sure what you're doing with the rifle, but the 16" gives you a longer effective range with any given type of fragmenting or expanding ammo.
why the aim point over the eotech, and is it night vision compat. ?
Because, compared to the Aimpoint, the Eotech is shit. Look around the site some more, this has been covered over and over again.
what do you think about the reflex?
more shit
do you not like the surefire m910 or is it just overpriced?
It's heavy
does anyone have experience with the leo discount from noveske?
Call them. You'll like it.
anyone else care to weigh in?
More people aren't replying because the answers to all of your questions are elsewhere on the site, discussed repeatedly, if you just take a few minutes and look around and/or search. I just happen to get up early, I just got done watching the first episode of "Carrier" on PBS, and had nothing better to do than post.
Seriously. Look around the site. There are ongoing discussions on the Recce, Aimpoint vs. Eotech, Surefire X300, etc. Literally ongoing, as in they have all been replied to in the last 12 hours. Click "new posts" up there at the top and most of them should show up. If not, just to the right of that is "search", which can be even more helpful.
Rob - excellent. That was worth reading twice...Dsmguy7 - Good luck with your choices and let us know how it comes out for you....Good luck!
Dsm7guy,
I am aLEO in S. Florida and a trainer. Rob is right, as usual.
Personally if I were allowed to use a Noveske at work, I'd buy one. I'd buy the 16" with Noveske's rail. I have seen and touched them they are a nice product. The gun comes with Troy front and rear sights, A tango down pistol grip. Noveske 's guns are built right and they are backed by great customer service.
I'd get an Aimpoint M4 in a Larue mount. see www.laruetactical.com The M4 has the longest battery life now and I would leave it on in the car all the time and not sweat it. Change the Battery once every year and do not sweat it.
Slings are a personal choice issue. I run the VCAS Vickers combat application sling from Blue Force Gear. I have switched the positions several times and will contiue to do so until I get it right.
The Noveske will be a bit more money at first, but then you are done and you will have a great gun that will last for years. Buy a bunch of good magazines.
Next thing is invest in proper initial training and then practice, practice, practice. I stole this line from Gary Roberts, but it is so true and this site will back it up...
If I can help you in anyway just ask. That goes for this site too, all of the guys are here to learn and help.
Stay Safe,
jack
Thanks Jack, the check is in the mail. :D
In all seriousness though, I used to give a blanket answer to people looking for an M4 that went "Colt 6920, DD or LT 7.0 rail, Aimpoint ML3 in LT or ADM mount, VCAS sling, LT rear BUIS". The advent of the Noveske N4 has changed a good bit of this, and now it would go "Noveske N4 Recce, Aimpoint M4 in LT mount, VCAS sling". The Recce comes with a rail and BUIS so you're set in that regard. There are other, possibly less expensive, options but the above would be my "top of the line" GP rifle recommendation. Stick an Aimpoint magnifier on a pivot mount in the go-bag and you'll really be covered for whatever may come your way.
Paladin4415
05-05-08, 18:25
My patrol rifle is the Noveske N4 basic and I added a Knight's Armament RAS. I prefer a single point sling, but that is personal preference. Get the Aimpoint period, it's the best out there. I chose the Magpul CTR over the Vltor stock, but again thats a personal thing. One I have learned is to keep the rifle as LIGHT AS POSSIBLE. It is by far my favorite AR. Do a little more research and give John a call, I think you will like his LEO pricing and he will "make it your way".
Oh yeah, buy all the mags you can afford.
thanks for the replies, and rob_s, believe it or not i have read threads on here for two weeks and i have used the search function. im not saying that the info. was not there, but all i was able to find were some people arguing their opinions and not stating facts as to how they reached that opinion. either that or it did not quite refer to my application. all i want to do is learn and make an informed purchase. i appologize if this is too much to ask. i will just read and not post anymore. thanks for your help, jackinfl.
Dsmguy7,
BULL$#!!,
Continue to read, and when you have a question ask! There are a ton of guys here that will help, Rob included. If you have questions, try searching first if you do not find the answer ask, but preface it with I looked or something like that.
Stay safe,
Jack
Jay Cunningham
05-06-08, 02:28
Guys,
If you are going to assist the OP then do so. If you are going to simply bitch at him for "not doing a search" please do not do so.
dsmguy7, Rob S gave you very good information.
i know, and i appreciate rob_s's help. it just seems that everyone was coming down on me. i really have been searching, but i will search more. i am new.
Don't sweat it - the search feature is not an "end all be all"....People come to forums to ask questions and often they get the "use the search" response when it takes less time and is often more friendly and helpful just to answer. Many feel that's what forums are all about - the communicating and sharing of ideas - some do not obviously feel this way. Many still, forget that they were once new and full of questions...I say ask away, search what you can and ignore the "search is your friend" folks....Nice to have you here and please enjoy your stay. One day soon, you'll be answering questions from a newbie yourself.... ;)
My intent was not to hurt anyone's feelings, but saying "use the search" was instead meant as advice. Literally every one of your original questions had been answered elsewhere and/or discussed repeatedly. Many people that are new to a forum don't even know that search functions exist or how to use them properly.
If you want more than people posting their (often unsubstantiated) opinions then internet forums in general are not a good source of information. The only way to get the information you want is to spend the money and learn lessons the hard way; by trial and error.
Many people think that their application is unique, that their purpose is unique,that their questions are unique, that their thoughts are unique. They're not. Original thought is like Original Sin, it happened once to two people a long time ago and hasn't happened since.
HolyRoller
05-06-08, 08:42
Hey dsmguy7, glad to see you here, and be thankful you get to have patrol rifles at all, and thankful that you get to buy the best, instead of having Captain Lois Bidder toss you an iron-sighted Bushy ("we can't have you carrying your own gun, it's against policy and we'll get sued"). I'm going to a department where patrol rifles aren't (yet) allowed ("those things'll shoot all the way across the lake") and I'll sure miss my M4gery and Short Dot.
As soon as you can, show up at a training class by one of our recommended trainers here. It's the best $400 and case of ammo you'll ever spend. The best $35 you'll ever spend is Green Eyes Black Rifles which is the best primer I know of for carbine work. Stay safe and shoot straight!
Jay Cunningham
05-06-08, 17:31
ok. let me start over. i have removed the sand from my mangina (as you guys call it). thanks for some of you that welcomed me to the site and for the info. i DO want people's opinions, but don't just say brand x sucks. tell me why you think it sucks. if i can identify with your reasoning, then i will have saved money. that's all i was saying. i am going to start learning how to search better and try to answer my own questions before posting. yeah, i should be thankful. i figured we were the most backwards police department. sorry about no patrol rifle, holyroller.
Fixed it for ya.
;)
One teeny tiny grain of sand in a mangina can ruin an entire day. I work at a PD that is partially on the ocean. There are guys that never ever go east of the ICW and they seem to constantly get that one errant grain of sand lodged in their manginas and ruin everyones day.
DSMguy7,
Welcome from a fellow LEO.
Jack
Mangina...You guys are too damned funny... :D
FWIW from an untrained civilian on a budget, who's gotten into ARs by following the advice at this site -
Mags: PMags all the way. They're straightforward, tough, well-made, and they work.
Cleaning/lube: I use a Dewey rod, nylon brush, specialized chamber brush, Hoppe's #9, and I've found that I have to cut my cleaning patches in quarters to get them down the bore. Slip 2000 is nice for lubrication but I'm about to give Mobil 1 10W30 a try, it's cheaper.
dsmguy7
Take a look at some more of Rob's musings here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14446
I'm not even in the market for a new AR and he's got me convinced! ;)
Welcome.
dsmguy7
Take a look at some more of Rob's musings here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14446
I'm not even in the market for a new AR and he's got me convinced! ;)
Welcome.
musings? more like ramblings. :D
thanks for all the input guys. i have pretty much decided. just bouncing back and forth between the vis or basic version of the recce.
I think the VIS certainly looks cool and is definately sturdy and all, but I would opt for the basic version and spend the difference on the other items you mentioned.
Let me also add a +1 for the P-Mags and Vickers Sling! I know when I was LE, I always needed more gear than I had $$$ for, so if looking for some less expensive alternatives, check out the Victory version of the BFG Vickers sling, and you may want to look into a Surefire G2L in a VTAC mount. I think the G2L and VTAC mount will give you a reliable, relatively light weight, and inexpensive setup. This combo rivals many much more expensive setups and should be more than GTG for house clearing.
I really can't imagine what you would need NV capability for unless your dept has much better toys than mine did, use difference in $$$ to go towards a good mount.
I have an EOTech mounted on my 10.5" SBR. I haven't gotten to run it on this gun yet, but had it on a 16" for about a year and a half without issue. It even made it through an EAG Tactial class, without crapping out! :D I think it will work very well on this shorty, but I will be putting an Aimpoint on the 16" when I have the funds. The battery life just can't be beat, and they have proven more durable.
-RD62
Welcome to M4C and congrats on the new Noveske! Fantastic choice!:)
Way to go on your purchase! Now let's see those pix when you get them up! :D
Congratulations on your purchase!
You need to host the photo somewhere like photobucket. My photo editing software has a resize function, and a preset size for emails and the like. That's the size I use, don't know the numbers off-hand, but it always works for me!
-RD62
That is FANTASTIC. I still love the way Noveske marks his complete guns with that little iron cross that spans the upper and lower. Very trick way of marking a factory gun.
Failure2Stop
06-28-08, 10:15
I am extremely o.c.d. and anal about keeping my equipment clean and nice. This is my first ar and I want to clean it the right way, using the right equipment, and not screw it up.
I clean my weapons to be functionally clean, not CG Inspection ready.
I use Slip Carbon Cutter for the nasty bits. Soak for a while, then scrub with an AP brush. Repeat until clean (see this thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13620)). Most of the cleaning of the upper receiver can be done with a rag or 12 gauge mop.
I then lube the weapon down with Slip 2000 or EWL. There are various thoughts on lube, from dedicated weapons lubricants Such as Slip 2000 or MG Lube to engine oils like Mobil 1. Some are perfectly happy with CLP (Cleaning Lubricating Protectant) products from Break-Free and others.
I prefer dedicated products, having left CLP unless nothing else is available.
Brass or nylon brushes are great for scrubbing the bore of CL barrels. Patches are needed to mop out the crap left from the scrubbing. I alternate between brushes and patches, about 5 passes with a bore brush, 1 wet patch, more passes with the brush, a couple of patches, until the patches come out slightly grey, not trying to get it totally clean. I do a complete, thorough cleaning every few months, depending on my firing schedule. I will occasionally use a Bore Snake before accuracy-oriented shoots or when I cannot do a proper cleaning of the barrel. They are ok for getting out the big stuff, but not for final cleaning.
Make sure you also pick up a chamber brush to deal with the crap that collects in the barrel extension and throat to shoulder of the chamber. You need a fixed rod so you can turn it as well. A few q-tips help in wiping all the gunk out of the barrel extension and locking lugs.
The Otis kits are pretty well stocked, would be a good starting point.
But that's just my opinion
-F2S
Jay Cunningham
06-28-08, 10:22
For me, the less experienced I was the more worried I was about cleaning. As my experience with these weapons grew I came to understand what "dirty" really was and what it really takes to keep them running. Nothing wrong with cleaning, just don't go the Marine Corps DI route and scrub, scrub, scrub - that can be worse for your rifle in the long term than not cleaning it.
Failure2Stop
06-28-08, 10:27
For me, the less experienced I was the more worried I was about cleaning. As my experience with these weapons grew I came to understand what "dirty" really was and what it really takes to keep them running. Nothing wrong with cleaning, just don't go the Marine Corps DI route and scrub, scrub, scrub - that can be worse for your rifle in the long term than not cleaning it.
Sorry to jump right back into this, but I gotta give a +1 to this.
I have seen more weapons go tits-up from over/improper cleaning than I have seen be legitimately shot-out.
OCD cleaning is not conducive to proper function of an M4gery.
Failure2Stop
07-01-08, 11:14
I prefer flexible cable type "rod" over a fixed length rod for a few reasons-
They roll up to fit a small pocket, and thus are more likely to go where you go.
It is very easy to properly clean the barrel- chamber to bore, with a simple single action without having to pull the brush/patch back through the muzzle or removing the tip with each pass.
They are generally non-damaging to the barrel/crown.
Even the cheapo GI rods are ok. Just drop the naked end through first, pulling the brush/patch through the barrel. Pulling them instead of pushing them through ensures that they don't buckle, and the tip is easier to deal with. Be careful of crown damage with frequent use though (this is purely anecdotal, but makes sense to me).
There is absolutely no need to oil the exterior aluminum parts of the weapon. In fact, this will just attract dust, sand, and various other small items to your weapon. Keep the exterior clean and dry. The finish is usually anodized aluminum (don't know who doesn't), and is pretty much impervious to anything but mercury. You don't really need anything crazy to clean the exterior though. There isn't much that can't be removed with CLP, just about any cleaner, or even water. Just don't take a scotch-brite pad to it :D .
The internals of the lower (fire control group) mostly need to be kept relatively clean, lubricated, and protected from corrosion. For semi-detailed cleaning (which only happens for me when a bunch of crap accumulates in the FCG area) I first spray the crap out with WD-40 (the horror) or water. Once all the big crap is out I lubricate the entire FCG, including the sear notch on the hammer.
Yes...
400 bucks for 1450 rounds of quality 5.56 and .223 is a very good deal these days. Buy it!
MBR
RogerinTPA
07-10-08, 23:12
....crickets chirping. :confused:
LOL...It's a good buy.
FYI, I am someones who hates cleaning my AR's. I normally just lube and shoot. I normally clean every 1500 - 2000 rounds fired with "NO" malfunctions. When I do, I use slip carbon cutter or simple green (for the BCG) hose everything down with WD-40, Hoppes for the chamber using the chamber brush and only patches for the bore (Don't want to add to the barrel wear), then lube (Militec or Slip EWL). It works for me.
Welcome to M4C!
Detective_D
07-11-08, 07:54
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=TAP55P&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DHORN
This is what I run for practice ammo and have had no trouble with it what so ever. 200 rds for 88 bucks I think.
RogerinTPA
07-11-08, 08:38
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=TAP55P&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DHORN
This is what I run for practice ammo and have had no trouble with it what so ever. 200 rds for 88 bucks I think.
Interesting that it looks like the Wolf lacquer ammo a lot of folks are paranoid of using.:confused: Anyone using this should give us a range report on this ammo.
That TAP ammo HAS caused problems. IIRC there's a thread or two about it on 10-8. Oh, and dsm it IS FMJ and not soft-point like you asked for.
If I understand you correctly, you've been shooting green-tip which most likely IS of a variety that will damage the steel you'll be shooting at. If you're only going to be shooting the soft-point stuff for a qual (and presumably to sight in beforehand) then just pick up the cheapest stuff you can find. Barnaul (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=636697) and Wolf (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=311878) both make 55 grain varieties that are $6/box from Midway. If you need brass, you're going to have to step up in price, and Prvi (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=411197) makes a brass cased 55 grain that's $10/box.
Black Hills (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=662754) also does a reman version of a 60 grain SP that may have a closer POI to your green tip. It's $28/50.
All those links are to Midway, and I think if you tell them you're LE you get a discount which will lower all those prices a bit.
decodeddiesel
07-11-08, 11:11
I can recommend the Barnaul. I fired 1500 rounds and have had no problems with it in my LMT. Like with any steel cased ammo be sure you clean your chamber before and after you fire it.
Detective_D
07-11-08, 11:37
Interesting that it looks like the Wolf lacquer ammo a lot of folks are paranoid of using.:confused: Anyone using this should give us a range report on this ammo.
I have used about 300 rounds so far in my LMT with no problems at all. I have about 200 more rounds that I am going through this weekend. I will let you know if there is any change.
I didnt catch that you not needing fmj dsm. Sorry about that.
I like nice ''light'' AR-15 with good parts that work -some are so-called Mil-spec and others not ! what works in the worst is the best and for the doller to go! get Par R. tell about gimmick /micky runney guns with all the bells and toys hung on them -after 2/3 days of tec work outs ,most toys are off or broken ! so buy well and it works well -add in the gas rings x them at 1500 rds and get spare bolt too ....get a field parts kit bag for your cleaning kit! sorry i have been working long hours !
Battl3fr0nt
07-13-08, 08:11
SS will do under moa if you pay for it but I get moa with my Armalite Middy, yeah I have a FF rail on it but I really dont think it helped that much, it is more about not putting force on the barrel.. SS lasts about 5,000-10,000 Crome lined lasts 10,000-20,000 I mean unless you are shooting 600+ 1-1.5 Moa is fine.. and that is what you will get with a good AR, Armalite,Bushmaster,LMT ect..
oh and DSMguy that is a very good deal! if you dont want to buy the ammo tell your friend I will!!
Detective_D
07-30-08, 07:57
According to Rob's chart, yes it is.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642
dsmguy- how long did it take Noveske to fulfill the order?
Detective_D
08-01-08, 16:32
Detective d, no offense meant; but did you read the question? I know that it is parkerized under the fsb. The question was, is that all or is it on the whole barrel and fsb itself. Also, is it necessary to lube the fsb and barrel surface?
Mattjmcd, it took about three weeks. I've been very pleased so far. The only wierd thing is the aac blackout fh I have makes a ringing sound like a tuning fork when I shoot. Guess I can use it to test calibration on my radar!:D
Wow, totally missed that one....lol. I am sorry, cant answer whether it is on the whole barrel or not.
No offense taken either, I didnt read it all the way through. :cool:
~D
You're asking if you need to lube the barrel under the handguards?
It can't hurt, although just about anything you put on there is going to just cook off after a little sustained fire and the resulting smoke could affect your sight picture. We saw this happen to someone in our rifle match last month.
PRGGodfather
08-21-08, 20:20
It is. Lubing it is not necessary.
Uhn, this is an interesting question that pops up here and there. So the overall consensus, thus far, is that there's no need? I guess the would make sense seeing as it's parkerized and all.
Plenty of other ammo available.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/index.php/cName/223-556-fmj-ammo
bump.
Failure2Stop
10-12-09, 17:12
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=636697 ......Anyone know where to find this cheap ammo? Apparently midway does not carry it anymore and states that the manufacturer doesnt make it. I need some cheap ammo for rifle requal at the end of the month.
You would probably get better responses on questions about ammo in the Reloading and Ammunition (https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=72) Sub-Forum.
Just sayin'.
No worries. Glad I could help.
Iraqgunz-Thank you. Fail2stop-My error. I should have started a new thread in the appropriate forum.
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