View Full Version : ? on checkpoints
platoonDaddy
10-28-13, 19:27
Note following picture: yes, the finger isn’t on the trigger and I understand the situation, but is this legal?
http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad176/slickville/checkpointguns3_zps023b9da3.jpg (http://s933.photobucket.com/user/slickville/media/checkpointguns3_zps023b9da3.jpg.html)
http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/photo-checkpoint-cops-point-guns-at-motorists/
I would be ****ing pissed if some dude was sticking a loaded weapon in my grill for doing nothing but driving.
Voodoo_Man
10-28-13, 19:45
A sporadic gun battle lasted into the night and the commotion snarled traffic for hours.
Yea.....
Bolt_Overide
10-28-13, 19:55
I dont give a good god damn what they are looking for, putting a muzzle in a citizens face is bullshit.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-28-13, 20:07
I have to agree. Pointing a weapon in a citizens face just because you are looking for a bad guy isn't justified. He could have done the exact same thing with it pointed down toward the ground.
Total BS. What recourse would a lawful citizen have for this kind of aggression? Lawsuit? I don't know is why I am asking.
To put things into perspective, this is the suspect.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/10/26/article-0-18FDA1ED00000578-517_306x423.jpg
Voodoo_Man
10-28-13, 20:22
While I agree that pointing a gun at a citizen is not correct, that officer is not pointing that muzzle at his face, though its close, its not directly at his face.
Inkslinger
10-28-13, 20:32
Really? Face, neck, shoulder, whatever! He's pointing it at him.
While I agree that pointing a gun at a citizen is not correct, that officer is not pointing that muzzle at his face, though its close, its not directly at his face.
Voodoo_Man
10-28-13, 20:39
Really? Face, neck, shoulder, whatever! He's pointing it at him.
One picture sure does give a lot away doesn't it, like exactly why that gun is up and aimed in that general direction...
Less assuming, more facts.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-28-13, 20:42
That seems to be a pretty long telephoto lens. He might be pointing it behind the person, its kind of hard to tell. Even if it isn't pointing directly at him, it is pretty close.
Cops point guns at people WAY TOO ****ING MUCH. There was the case last year (?) in Aurora where they were chasing a bank robber and ended up stopping about 20 cars and pulling everyone out at gun point and cuffing them.
Inkslinger
10-28-13, 20:47
Well, here are the facts the picture is telling me. He has at least one hand in view, the other officer doesn't feel the need to have a weapon pointed at the individual, and he doesn't even remotely appear to be the same ethnicity of the suspect. What does the picture tell you?
One picture sure does give a lot away doesn't it, like exactly why that gun is up and aimed in that general direction...
Less assuming, more facts.
Muzzle not pointed at driver, but what if there had been children in back? That being said I would have been kinda annoyed about gun, but understood situation. My wife on the other hand, not so much..
Voodoo_Man
10-28-13, 20:57
Well, here are the facts the picture is telling me. He has at least one hand in view, the other officer doesn't feel the need to have a weapon pointed at the individual, and he doesn't even remotely appear to be the same ethnicity of the suspect. What does the picture tell you?
The picture was taken with a long range lens, you can tell because of the lack of instant blurring after the focus point.
I imagine the person taking the picture is more than likely 30-50 feet away, maybe more depending on the editing and lens quality. With this type of zoom, depth of field is very difficult to ascertain with this picture. That officer could be three to four feet away from the vehicle, pointing his rifle at the back seat, rear trunk or an open space.
Looking at a single photograph doesn't tell us what happened before the shot was taken, nor what happened after. The interaction of the driver and the cop, what might have been seen in the car, etc.
At this stage, while I'd be pissed if it was me in the car, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the cops. BUT considering all the crap that has been going on of late involving LE agents, that benefit-of-the-doubt coupon has a very short shelf life.
Inkslinger
10-28-13, 21:01
Oh, those facts.
The picture was taken with a long range lens, you can tell because of the lack of instant blurring after the focus point.
I imagine the person taking the picture is more than likely 30-50 feet away, maybe more depending on the editing and lens quality. With this type of zoom, depth of field is very difficult to ascertain with this picture. That officer could be three to four feet away from the vehicle, pointing his rifle at the back seat, rear trunk or an open space.
Voodoo_Man
10-28-13, 21:02
Oh, those facts.
Which facts were you thinking of?
RearwardAssist
10-28-13, 21:07
The picture was taken with a long range lens, you can tell because of the lack of instant blurring after the focus point.
I imagine the person taking the picture is more than likely 30-50 feet away, maybe more depending on the editing and lens quality. With this type of zoom, depth of field is very difficult to ascertain with this picture. That officer could be three to four feet away from the vehicle, pointing his rifle at the back seat, rear trunk or an open space.
Look at the width of the stripe running down his pants now look at the width of it in the reflection of the car that tells me he is very close to the vehicle because they are almost exactly the same size. Atleast they appear to be from me the angle of the weapon could be off to the back still but he looks pretty close to the vehicle.
That officer could be three to four feet away from the vehicle, pointing his rifle at the back seat, rear trunk or an open space.
Not true. Look at the ratio of head sizes between the officer in the foreground, the driver, and the officer in the background. Their heads are about the same size, which means they were all about the same distance from the camera.
In addition, the height of the officer in the foreground is correct for someone standing next to a car, relative to the car top.
Finally, you can see a reflection of his uniform pant strip on the door of the car below the door crease, and you can see a reflection of his left arm directly above that. If he was several feet away, the relative sizes would be off.
That picture is a few hundredths of a second so no one really knows, other than dude and cop, if he had the muzzle in his face. It's not much of a leap to guess that he did at some point muzzle the dude, face or not. That car body won't stop those rounds from entering the driver either.
I'm reminded of a 13 year old with a toy gun was going to muzzle a police officer recently and ended up being shot and killed. Should the same standard apply? The police officer's life, who killed the kid, is no more valuable than the man that's driving that car in the photo.
Police have ND's just like ordinary citizens and they also light up randoms on occasion like the Chris Dorner debacle. NYPD averages over 1 ND a month (2011) and in 2010 they were almost up to 2 a month. (Easiest PD info to find)
Voodoo_Man
10-28-13, 21:10
Look at the width of the stripe running down his pants now look at the width of it in the reflection of the car that tells me he is very close to the vehicle because they are almost exactly the same size. Atleast they appear to be from me the angle of the weapon could be off to the back still but he looks pretty close to the vehicle.
If he was close, more of the background would be visible, depending on the settings of course. I wish I could get the original and peak at the exif.
Either way, I cannot tell with an certainty how close either one of those officers are to that vehicle, can you?
Voodoo_Man
10-28-13, 21:10
Not true. Look at the ratio of head sizes between the officer in the foreground, the driver, and the officer in the background. Their heads are about the same size, which means they were all about the same distance from the camera.
In addition, the height of the officer in the foreground is correct for someone standing next to a car, relative to the car top.
I was guesstimating, nothing scientific.
edit; all subjective really, the second officer might be super short and super fat and the officer in front could be super tall, who knows?
For all practical purposes that is a gun in the face...:mad:
I have to agree. Pointing a weapon in a citizens face just because you are looking for a bad guy isn't justified. He could have done the exact same thing with it pointed down toward the ground.
Yep, at the "high ready", 45 degrees downward angle but not muzzle to face.
For all practical purposes that is a gun in the face...:mad:
Yeah, sure looks like it. I don't care what kind of camera-trickery is being bandied about here it's pointed pretty damn close to his face/head/upper body, NOT the backseat.
Would be pretty, uh, unnerving to say the least.
I am more concerned about Paul Blart on the other side of the car....
I'm getting sick of these LEOs out of control stories.
If you don't have the stones to be a respectful, conscientious peace officer that doesn't shoot kids that are carrying toy guns, or point an AR15 at kids because that climbed on top of a school bus stop or point an AR15 at a motorist enjoying life liberty and the pursuit of happiness you really need to get another career. It's just a job, if you can't do it without being so scared you have to threaten law abiding citizens go get a job doing something else.
You guys should have seen how things went down with the NY state police during that whole Bucky Phillips debacle a few years back. Aside from them basically pushing aside all of the local LE (who knew the area and the locals) to run the show it was an absolute miracle no civilians where accidentally killed. Driving through checkpoints off and on I was, in total, flagged no less than a 8 times by the muzzle of a troopers M4 while seated in my vehicle. Not directly pointed at my face but from the shoulder down to say the midline of my door or so. At the time I had a Ram 2500 mind you. :eek:
And then there was the whole incident while hauling our horses. Apparently some of the guys had never seen horses and felt it prudent to off-load the tack compartment of our trailer to ensure we were not harboring any fugitives under the saddles. It was ridiculous to say the least.
ramairthree
10-29-13, 15:33
I think he is pointing back and down and not at the guy's face.
While I doubt the driver is the perp wearing a wig and makeup over a neck tat,
only one of his hands is up on the wheel.
I think the guy's partner ate the passenger though.
Muzzle discipline is of paramount importance no matter what the situation.
Have any statements about this been made by the police agency?
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-29-13, 15:49
I think he is pointing back and down and not at the guy's face.
While I doubt the driver is the perp wearing a wig and makeup over a neck tat,
only one of his hands is up on the wheel.
I think the guy's partner ate the passenger though.
I think that is the most interesting part. One guy is muzzle sweeping everyone and the other one is in a pseudo sugar coma thinking about donuts. If the guy is a legit threat or a warrants it, I don't have a problem with the weapon placement. The second cops attitude shows that either they guy isn't a threat or the second cop is situationally clueless. That and they will have a lot of fun shooting at the guy directly between them...
It's pretty simple, rules 2 & 4 apply directly to this photograph. The whole idea of pointing guns at people, when you aren't OK to be shooting them yet, is a definite NO GO.
RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
I can't tell from the photo what is going on inside the vehicle or how long the carbine was pointed in the motorist's direction.
Why do you need two contact officers? If things go south, the officer with the carbine and the fat guy are going to be shooting at each other. Tactically the officer with the long gun should have been standing in another location where he could cover the fat guy on the passenger side should the situation turn critical.
I can't see the motorist's other hand, but the facial expressions don't indicate he is exchanging heated words with the officers.
Pointing a firearm at a civilian is a serious issue. You point firearms at people only when you have to do it.
The background cop has an AR as well, he's just not ready to employ it. His support hand is between the handguard and his belly.
One cop is ready to engage and the other is ready to hit the buffet.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-29-13, 16:37
Why do you need two contact officers? If things go south, the officer with the carbine and the fat guy are going to be shooting at each other. Tactically the officer with the long gun should have been standing in another location where he could cover the fat guy on the passenger side should the situation turn critical.
.
Draw it again (http://youtu.be/MTT4Kw-wohA)
Moose-Knuckle
10-29-13, 17:29
Police have ND's just like ordinary citizens and they also light up randoms on occasion like the Chris Dorner debacle.
LOL, yeah the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the OP pic was this from the Dorner checkpoints in CA.
Truck driver being muzzled as he opens his rear door so LE can inspect his cargo area.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/LAcophunt_zpsa462ffce.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/LAcophunt_zpsa462ffce.jpg.html)
LOL, yeah the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the OP pic was this from the Dorner checkpoints in CA.
Truck driver being muzzled as he opens his rear door so LE can inspect his cargo area.
If it were anybody other than a police officer, let's say training on a range, everyone would be up in arms and ready to crucifying the offender.
If it were anybody other than a police officer, let's say training on a range, everyone would be up in arms and ready to crucifying the offender.
This.
I'm done with the "applaud the police state" crowd. The guy has no reason to point a long arm at the guy as demonstrated by threat level posture of his partner... as pointed out in this thread.
So many need to wake the _____ up. It is time to stop allowing and be complacent with this type of activity that is happening more and more. It's not ok.
PA PATRIOT
10-29-13, 18:53
The picture was taken with a long range lens, you can tell because of the lack of instant blurring after the focus point.
I imagine the person taking the picture is more than likely 30-50 feet away, maybe more depending on the editing and lens quality. With this type of zoom, depth of field is very difficult to ascertain with this picture. That officer could be three to four feet away from the vehicle, pointing his rifle at the back seat, rear trunk or an open space.
That is my take on this photo too.
You can see the officers reflection in the car, I think he is closer than 3-4 feet.
If taken as a snapshot in time, it looks like the officer could almost be gesturing with the long gun, like he's pointing at something in the car or using it for emphasis.
Still a NO-GO, and possibly worse.
Not helping, guys.
Email from photographer who took shot of CHP at roadblock. I'm guessing it's legit.
http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z393/DougDeaton/EmailfromPhotographer_zps7245934d.jpg
Voodoo_Man
11-01-13, 11:05
Email from photographer who took shot of CHP at roadblock. I'm guessing it's legit.
http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z393/DougDeaton/EmailfromPhotographer_zps7245934d.jpg
Thanks for the post.
Good to have an explanation from the source.
Thanks for the post.
Good to have an explanation from the source.
You bet. I think it's only fair to present all available material so that people can better form an opinion. Initially, it appeared that the CHP officer had muzzled dude's grill... Apparently it didn't go down that way, which I'm glad, but I still wouldn't be too happy if it were me driving or if my kids were in the back seat.
Email from photographer who took shot of CHP at roadblock. I'm guessing it's legit.
http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z393/DougDeaton/EmailfromPhotographer_zps7245934d.jpg
Thanks for the update. I still have concerns about where the officer with the carbine is standing.
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