View Full Version : Interesting .223 Federal Fusion Test
vicious_cb
10-29-13, 05:59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE5ZnQmKy2o
In short the bullet only penetrated ~9", interesting results since this is one of the barrier blind loads suggested by Doc which I assume should meet the FBI min. penetration. Im guessing this occurred because it was shot from a 20" barrel at ~3000 fps it opened too rapidly reducing its penetration. Does this mean we should only be using this ammo in 16" barrels or less?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE5ZnQmKy2o
In short the bullet only penetrated ~9", interesting results since this is one of the barrier blind loads suggested by Doc which I assume should meet the FBI min. penetration. Im guessing this occurred because it was shot from a 20" barrel at ~3000 fps it opened too rapidly reducing its penetration. Does this mean we should only be using this ammo in 16" barrels or less?
It's only one shot, which only serves as a snapshot of possible performance. It's best to have a spread of five or more to assess extremes and average.
The sim-test medium adds its own variables. Preparation and calibration is important. I don't know how sim-test performance compares to real tissue or any validations for it.
Velocities published by Federal are for different barrel lengths. The F223FS1 is from a 24" test barrel. The MSR is from a 16". His velocities aren't surprising.
Bullets also have minds of their own and all the imperfection of their human makers. It could be a valid result, but I suspect it's not a representative sample for one or more reasons.
Another thread discussing the regular and MSR fusion loadings of this bullet:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=128836&highlight
Here's a 64gr GDSP (#24447) recovered from tissue a few weeks ago. Performance between this loading and the commercially packaged 62gr Fusions are often identical.
This round was recovered from a 200lb whitetail buck. I shot him at about 35yds from a kneel. He was shot broadside once just behind the shoulder above the heart. After spinning 180 degrees he offered up the opposite broadside, and was shot at the same approximate location. After jumping in place a few seconds, he fell dead.
During recovery, two entrance wounds and two bullet paths were identified. The first round entered and struck the opposite chest wall and caused trauma as it tried to exit but ran out of gas. The second round had a more angular trajectory and ended up traveling into the guts and was not recovered.
This load chronos about 2700fps from the gun.
In the third photo, it looks like a petal has broken off. It's actually folded over onto an adjacent petal, maintaining full structural integrity.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/Speer%20GDSP%20Rifle/IMG_0151.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/Speer%20GDSP%20Rifle/IMG_0149.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/Speer%20GDSP%20Rifle/IMG_0145.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/Speer%20GDSP%20Rifle/IMG_0148.jpg
I have basically switched to the 62g Fusion load away from 75g TAP. I believe the 62g Fusion is one of the best all around loads for self defense, hunting, etc... for the AR platform. Maybe its not THE BEST, but as an all around performer, its hard to beat. I havent sold any of my 75g TAP and still keep a few mags of it around, but I dont have it in the guns any more.
I believe in the other thread that was linked it was determined that there was, in essence, zero difference between the two loadings, just that the testing was done with a 16" vs. 24" barrel. Oh and the non-MSR is put into prettier cases.
vicious_cb
10-29-13, 22:27
Here's a 64gr GDSP (#24447) recovered from tissue a few weeks ago. Performance between this loading and the commercially packaged 62gr Fusions are often identical.
This round was recovered from a 200lb whitetail buck. I shot him at about 35yds from a kneel. He was shot broadside once just behind the shoulder above the heart. After spinning 180 degrees he offered up the opposite broadside, and was shot at the same approximate location. After jumping in place a few seconds, he fell dead.
During recovery, two entrance wounds and two bullet paths were identified. The first round entered and struck the opposite chest wall and caused trauma as it tried to exit but ran out of gas. The second round had a more angular trajectory and ended up traveling into the guts and was not recovered.
This load chronos about 2700fps from the gun.
In the third photo, it looks like a petal has broken off. It's actually folded over onto an adjacent petal, maintaining full structural integrity.
My primary load is 64gr GDSP as its the most accurate barrier blind load out there. However it can be pretty difficult to find and I always looked at the Fusion load as a backup. Supposedly the difference between the two is that the GD bullet has more antimony mixed in to make the bullet tougher.
I also recall seeing someone do a wallboard test with the Federal XM223SP1 62gr ICE load. Because it uses a 62gr bullet and not a 64gr one we can assume it uses the same bullet as the fusion load since Doc stated the XM223SP1 was similarly constructed, however that bullet did not hold up too well either making me think the Fusion bullets are simply not as robust.
This stuff seems to be the most readily available bonded sp around. And a great value. I picked up 200 round case recently on GB for about .80 per round.
I this currently stoked in my HD 11.5" SBR. I figured that between all the data we have out there, the test on the federal website, the fact that Doc states this is similar constructed to the gold dot, and there was a test Ive seen around here where the xm223sp1(same 62gr bullet right?) where it expands down to 1900 or less. So all things add up to me that it would be a great round from my 16" or my SBR.
I have probably 100 rounds of RA556B, about 100 rounds of the XM556FBIT3 and maybe 200 rounds of MK318.
The FBI stuff I've loaded into my HD gun; with the idea that the Winchester stuff will be "just in case" ammo.
But with the MSR being $17/20, and the RA556 being about $33/20, I'm wondering if I should shift all my eggs into the MSR platform and stock twice the amount for the same money. Part of the problem I have is I don't shoot enough to do more than function check. I mean, why shoot, say, 5 mags at a cost of $200 to ensure it works well? With the MSR, I might be able to.
Anyone know the going rate on the MK318? Might be able to sell it off and put that towards either the Federal or Winchester rounds instead.
I have probably 100 rounds of RA556B, about 100 rounds of the XM556FBIT3 and maybe 200 rounds of MK318.
The FBI stuff I've loaded into my HD gun; with the idea that the Winchester stuff will be "just in case" ammo.
But with the MSR being $17/20, and the RA556 being about $33/20, I'm wondering if I should shift all my eggs into the MSR platform and stock twice the amount for the same money. Part of the problem I have is I don't shoot enough to do more than function check. I mean, why shoot, say, 5 mags at a cost of $200 to ensure it works well? With the MSR, I might be able to.
Anyone know the going rate on the MK318? Might be able to sell it off and put that towards either the Federal or Winchester rounds instead.
I cannot find M318 Mod 0 anywhere anymore, but I bought it from PSA a year ago for $15 a box of 20.
I want to stock up on Gold Dots, however, PSA has free shipping, and the MSR 62grs, for $17.
Is there any reason to pay more for 64gr Gold Dots?
The explanation I got on another forum is that the MSR penetrates deeper at distance. At shorter distances, the velocity causes more rapid expansion and less penetration. I haven't quite figured out my true HD load yet. Most info out there is LE/Mil based and they frequently have different requirements. I'm leaning toward a lighter (50 gr.) JHP, but haven't found data to back that up yet.
I don't believe his test media is very well calibrated. Others on YouTube have done Fusion tests and it always penetrates to FBI specs. Tnoutdoors9 just reviewed Tula x39 FMJ and that test showed unrealistic results as well.
ELECTROPLATED, NOT BONDED.
Both the Federal Fusion bullet and the Speer Gold Dot are electroplated bullets.
At both manufacturer's websites, they go to great lengths to CONCEAL this fact because they are terrified that consumers will confuse their excellent electroplated rifle bullets with cheap electroplated handgun bullets with thin plating - like Berry's.
A true "bonded" bullet uses a traditional pre-formed tubular jacket that is chemically bonded to a swaged lead core - usually with a bonding agent like muriatic acid. Such bullets have nothing in common with electroplated Fusion and Gold Dot bullets.
BufordTJustice
06-13-14, 23:52
ELECTROPLATED, NOT BONDED.
Both the Federal Fusion bullet and the Speer Gold Dot are electroplated bullets.
At both manufacturer's websites, they go to great lengths to CONCEAL this fact because they are terrified that consumers will confuse their excellent electroplated rifle bullets with cheap electroplated handgun bullets with thin plating - like Berry's.
A true "bonded" bullet uses a traditional pre-formed tubular jacket that is chemically bonded to a swaged lead core - usually with a bonding agent like muriatic acid. Such bullets have nothing in common with electroplated Fusion and Gold Dot bullets.
I understand what you are saying. Can you explain to me how this means that electroplating the gilding metal jacket onto the core is not also a method of bonding?
Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk
ELECTROPLATED, NOT BONDED.
Both the Federal Fusion bullet and the Speer Gold Dot are electroplated bullets.
At both manufacturer's websites, they go to great lengths to CONCEAL this fact because they are terrified that consumers will confuse their excellent electroplated rifle bullets with cheap electroplated handgun bullets with thin plating - like Berry's.
A true "bonded" bullet uses a traditional pre-formed tubular jacket that is chemically bonded to a swaged lead core - usually with a bonding agent like muriatic acid. Such bullets have nothing in common with electroplated Fusion and Gold Dot bullets.
If they went to such great lengths to hide it how does everybody know about it? True bonding just means that the jacket and core are combined to essentially become one piece rather than two. There is no difference in electro chemically bonding, chemically, welding or any of the other bonding processes. Some bonding processes create a stronger bond, but saying that the electro chemically bonded gold dot/fusions are not bonded is just ignorant.
I think speer knows how to bond bullets, they are one of the first to offer bonded bullets. They also could use any way they want to bond bullets. If they truly were not bonded as you suggest you would here professionals who test ammo speek out about it. Anybody that has shot bullet into water jugs can even see the difference in bonded and non bonded
I understand what you are saying. Can you explain to me how this means that electroplating the gilding metal jacket onto the core is not also a method of bonding?
Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk
He cant explain it. I have looked into making my own bonded bullets because you can not find a 70+ grain otm bullet that is bonded. I have found 64s but only in loaded ammo. There are a few different methods of bonding. They all result in the cores being bonded to the jackets, but some methods like welding are only as strong as the welding material.
Welding is applying a solder to the inside of the jacket placing the core than heating. Which welds the jacket to the core. This method is only as strong as the welding material. Corbin has some good info on making bonded bullets, they also sell everything you need to make your own bullets.
Fussion failed wallboard test?
vicious_cb
06-14-14, 18:48
Fussion failed wallboard test?
No, the xm223sp1 did but supposedly the gold dot, fusion and xm223sp1 are very similar in construction.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?112461-So-Which-Round-for-Home-Defense-You-Decide
I have found 64s but only in loaded ammo.
Nosler makes a bonded 64g for reloading. I have seen the Fusion pull's being offered before. I have never seen anything heavier. I wonder what the reasoning is. Im wondering if its even needed since, in theory you get a 100% retained weight energy dump from the 62/64g offerings vs. a 77g OTM where you have to deal with possible jacket separation issues and thus not getting a 100% energy dump into one part of the target as the core separates from the jacket. I dont know, it sounds better in my head when thinking about it.
Electroplating requires activation such as hcl or h2so4. Electroplating is chemically bonded if done properly, and annealing increases the diffusion layer thickness. My experience does not involve lead so it may be a little different but the chemistry is what it is. I'd love to know how hcl bonds two dissimilar metals together.
If you have two relatively thick dissimilar metals with a very thin diffusion layer, they will shear apart rather easily, but this is do to specs, not process.
Wrong - you failed to explain that electroplating necesitates a plating of PURE COPPER. You can't plate on "gilding metal" because "gilding metal" is an alloy.
I don't think you understand the process of bullet making at all well.
Wrong - you failed to explain that electroplating necesitates a plating of PURE COPPER. You can't plate on "gilding metal" because "gilding metal" is an alloy.
I don't think you understand the process of bullet making at all well.
I want to make sure I'm reading this correctly. Are you saying alloys cannot be electroplated? Brass cannot be electroplated?
harrishmasher
06-26-14, 14:52
There seems to be a pretty big difference between the performance of the 55gr gold dot and the 64gr gold dot. Why is this?
I want to make sure I'm reading this correctly. Are you saying alloys cannot be electroplated? Brass cannot be electroplated?
I think RayJay is saying that the metal that is being deposited onto the bullet core or whatever is pure copper... Not a copper/tin allow.
Not that a gilding metal CAN'T be plated itself.
Wrong - you failed to explain that electroplating necesitates a plating of PURE COPPER. You can't plate on "gilding metal" because "gilding metal" is an alloy.
I don't think you understand the process of bullet making at all well.
He understands it on a level you do not. You just say electroplating is not bonding, and fusion/gold dots are not bonded. When electro chemical bonding is one of many established bonding techniques.
Alloys can be plated that is not even debatable. What im looking for is where megademic stated anything about gilding metal. From his post he seems to have a good knowledge of bonding. It may not be lead and copper. Ty4394 what you have stated is just opinion, nothing of value.
Markm you may be right, but if you are it means he is reading a lot into it. Nobody even mentioned guilding metal. The comment was on the bonding, not what is being bonded to the lead core. Gilding metal used in jackets is copper and zinc which is 95-97% copper/3-5% zinc. Copper and zinc are both used in electroplating so I don't see how once you combine them the resulting gilding metal can not be used for plating.
It has been a few years since I took chemistry, but I know for a fact brass can be used for electroplating. So why not gilding metal? The are both copper and zinc. There are also multiple alloys used for electroplating.
Ty or rayjay as markm put it reminds me of all these people who have access to the internet that can spew all types of stupidity. Its like all the people online claiming there whindham AR is just as good as bcm, colt, and all the other quality manufacturers. The problem is these people think they know what they are talking about. You cant fix stupid.
BufordTJustice
06-27-14, 08:39
He understands it on a level you do not. You just say electroplating is not bonding, and fusion/gold dots are not bonded. When electro chemical bonding is one of many established bonding techniques.
Alloys can be plated that is not even debatable. What im looking for is where megademic stated anything about gilding metal. From his post he seems to have a good knowledge of bonding. It may not be lead and copper. Ty4394 what you have stated is just opinion, nothing of value.
Markm you may be right, but if you are it means he is reading a lot into it. Nobody even mentioned guilding metal. The comment was on the bonding, not what is being bonded to the lead core. Gilding metal used in jackets is copper and zinc which is 95-97% copper/3-5% zinc. Copper and zinc are both used in electroplating so I don't see how once you combine them the resulting gilding metal can not be used for plating.
It has been a few years since I took chemistry, but I know for a fact brass can be used for electroplating. So why not gilding metal? The are both copper and zinc. There are also multiple alloys used for electroplating.
Ty or rayjay as markm put it reminds me of all these people who have access to the internet that can spew all types of stupidity. Its like all the people online claiming there whindham AR is just as good as bcm, colt, and all the other quality manufacturers. The problem is these people think they know what they are talking about. You cant fix stupid.
This kind of attack on arfcom (from TY44934) was what ran Molon off. Sheesh.
Thank you for bringing clarity, Jstone.
This kind of attack on arfcom (from TY44934) was what ran Molon off. Sheesh.
Thank you for bringing clarity, Jstone.
Thats a shame molon is probably one of the community that has contributed so much and asked for nothing in return. Its sad that people with little to no education get to spout off on topics they know nothing about. If you simply google electroplating im sure you could learn everything you want to know.
My chemistry background is slim. Megademic definitely knows something about the process. Ty did not even offer any evidence why the fusion is not bonded. Im. Ot even sure if he knows what a diffusion layer is. The nosler 64bsb is welded to the core (albeit a good weld) welding can create one of the weeker bonds. It all depends on the welding material.
Internet privileges should be revoked if your found to be to ignorant to use. Then you would not lose people like molon. It seemed like I have not seen anything from him until lately.
I was wondering what happened to him. For the record, I have a ChemE degree and work with electroplating 5 days a week. We do electroplate alloys. We do not deal with lead.
BufordTJustice
06-27-14, 16:50
I was wondering what happened to him. For the record, I have a ChemE degree and work with electroplating 5 days a week. We do electroplate alloys. We do not deal with lead.
So, what you're saying is that you might know a thing or two about electroplating? ;)
Molon is active on Pistol-training dot com with Doc Roberts. They are both fairly active there now.
So, what you're saying is that you might know a thing or two about electroplating? ;)
Molon is active on Pistol-training dot com with Doc Roberts. They are both fairly active there now.
No, I don't have a clue. Haha.
Thanks for the info. I'll check it out.
I could tell you had a background in chem. Most people would just write sulphuric acid not give it molecular formula (h2so4).
Molon and doc also post on pistol forums as well.
The retardation present in most forums is ridiculous. I joined here after reading and watching for a couple years, because the bs was minimal. Now it seems to be getting worse.
deleted, getting off topic - going to pm....
Just an update, the "jacket" of the Gold Dot is pure copper.
This leads me to ask...
...back when the Barnes bullets were new (no grooves), they had bad fouling issues.
Have any departments/high round-count users noticed fouling/accuracy issues over time with the Gold Dots?
I have basically switched to the 62g Fusion load away from 75g TAP. I believe the 62g Fusion is one of the best all around loads for self defense, hunting, etc... for the AR platform. Maybe its not THE BEST, but as an all around performer, its hard to beat. I havent sold any of my 75g TAP and still keep a few mags of it around, but I dont have it in the guns any more.
it does seem that TAP T2 comes apart pretty fast in gels. you think too much velocity might be the reason for that? if it was slowed down a little would it perform better?
the black box FPD 223 version is slower than the red box right? does it do better in gel tests?
Just an update, the "jacket" of the Gold Dot is pure copper.
This leads me to ask...
...back when the Barnes bullets were new (no grooves), they had bad fouling issues.
Have any departments/high round-count users noticed fouling/accuracy issues over time with the Gold Dots?
I have also confirmed this, pure copper jacket.
As for your question, I'm interested as well. Perhaps they use a powder to keep fouling down?
BufordTJustice
09-24-16, 12:13
I have also confirmed this, pure copper jacket.
As for your question, I'm interested as well. Perhaps they use a powder to keep fouling down?
Like CFE 223? Certainly possible. CFE really does reduce bore fouling.
Like CFE 223? Certainly possible. CFE really does reduce bore fouling.
That's what I was thinking but dint know the name. I remember reading there was an additive that reduced the copper fouling. Anyone know what it is, I may be able to test for it at work.
I have also confirmed this, pure copper jacket.
As for your question, I'm interested as well. Perhaps they use a powder to keep fouling down?
are the Fusion bullets pure copper?
are the Fusion bullets pure copper?
no, which is obvious if you have ever looked at one.
They are a copper jacketed, lead core, soft tip projectile.
it does seem that TAP T2 comes apart pretty fast in gels. you think too much velocity might be the reason for that? if it was slowed down a little would it perform better?
the black box FPD 223 version is slower than the red box right? does it do better in gel tests?
Im just fine with a bullet coming apart quickly in gel and dumping its energy.
Thats not at all WHY I switched to the fusion/gold dot type bullet.
My 10.5" SBR is my go to gun. The loss in velocity of a 10.5" barrel REALLY reduces the range that you will get reliable fragmentation. Switching to a bullet that relies more on mushrooming and deforming the tip to transfer energy really opens up that range. Supposedly the Fusion will "open up" down to around 1700fps. I believe(I dont have access to my chrono data) that pushes my effective distance out to 150-175 yards where with a projectile I have to rely on fragmentation to work is only like 75-100 yards out of the 10.5" gun.
no, which is obvious if you have ever looked at one.
They are a copper jacketed, lead core, soft tip projectile.
I think he was referring to the jacket. I'm assuming it is, since it's basically a rebranded gold dot. I can verify if there is intest, or if no one can confirm.
uh, arent we talking about the jackets here?
I'll be trying these on deer here in the next month. I got 5 tags so looking forward to seeing the results.
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