View Full Version : SAFE ACT rifle choices
Weighing my options for post April 15th long gun choices.
1. Register my 2 Ar15s.
2. Ship to my brother out of state or store out of state and take classes in that state when possible
3. Sell them.
If I don't register and keep them around, I've thought of which compliant rifles to buy.
1. Ruger Scout
2. Lever gun
3. Garand
All 3 are compliant. I like the idea of the Ruger since mag changes are possible where they aren't with the lever gun. I love that the Garand is semi auto but clip changes aren't as intuitive as mag changes.
Keeping the Ar15s but not registering is illegal and if ppl choose that route and post it online they aren't smart. Rather be smart.
There is a chance the law gets struck down due to a lawsuit from the NRA/NYSRPA as well as a couple others, so my decision will be made in March if the lawsuit fails. If the lawsuit works and we win, disregard this thread as ill be keeping my 2 and not going to buy any of the above mentioned rifles.
Thanks for future replies,
Rich
Crow Hunter
10-29-13, 15:58
Weighing my options for post April 15th long gun choices.
1. Register my 2 Ar15s.
2. Ship to my brother out of state or store out of state and take classes in that state when possible
3. Sell them.
If I don't register and keep them around, I've thought of which compliant rifles to buy.
1. Ruger Scout
2. Lever gun
3. Garand
All 3 are compliant. I like the idea of the Ruger since mag changes are possible where they aren't with the lever gun. I love that the Garand is semi auto but clip changes aren't as intuitive as mag changes.
Keeping the Ar15s but not registering is illegal and if ppl choose that route and post it online they aren't smart. Rather be smart.
There is a chance the law gets struck down due to a lawsuit from the NRA/NYSRPA as well as a couple others, so my decision will be made in March if the lawsuit fails. If the lawsuit works and we win, disregard this thread as ill be keeping my 2 and not going to buy any of the above mentioned rifles.
Thanks for future replies,
Rich
Personally, I don't like lever guns. I have a couple (Marlin 336 my Dad gave me and 39A that I bought before Remington did) but I just don't "click" with them.
I would rather have a bolt action than a lever for just about everything. I would also go with a bolt action if you planned on doing other things with it other than just self defense. Especially since you can get different calibers that have the same action as understudy/other use rifles.
If Garands are legal, will continue to be so, and I wasn't planning on using it for hunting, I think that is what I would go for. Particularly if you could get one with the Criterion .308 barrels that CMP was selling not too long ago.
brickboy240
10-29-13, 17:06
The lever gun does not need separate mags that can get lost, stolen or bent up. You can also "top off" a lever gun a few at a time and many times with your spare hand while moving.
A 357 or 44mag lever gun takes a wide variety of ammo and bullet shapes.
The lever gun actually has a lot going for it.
-brickboy240
An SKS is safe act compliant as long as you don't load more than 7 rounds in the magazine. The SKS is a tough military grade semiauto rifle.
I would keep one AR and register it and send the other one to my brother or send them both to my brother.
An SKS is safe act compliant as long as you don't load more than 7 rounds in the magazine. The SKS is a tough military grade semiauto rifle.
I would keep one AR and register it and send the other one to my brother or send them both to my brother.
Is this correct?: internal mag, top loaded?
I believe the way that the SAFE act is written it applies to guns with detachable magazines that hold more than 10 rounds (though you are only allowed to load 7 rounds in it). If this wasn't the case, the M1 Garand would be banned. The SKS is not on their list. The only way that safe would apply is if you changed the SKS to take detachable magazines.
Edit: It has been a while since I read over the safe act and has been decades since I lived in NY.
You're correct about SAFE, I was just asking if that's how the SKS is loaded and if its mag is 10rds and internal.
You're correct about SAFE, I was just asking if that's how the SKS is loaded and if its mag is 10rds and internal.
top loaded, 10 round stripper clips.
Hmmm. A possibility then. I'd have to download 3 rds but its a cheap option.
I would have a hard time choosing between the lever and the garand. I have both and they both have merit.
If from just a protection aspect, a pistol caliber lever is hard to beat. Cross caliber pistol is a great option for carrying or buying a stash. I imagine ammo quantity will be a factor before too long. Bastards.
The garand wins hands down if long range or hunting is a concern. .30 cal is a great all around caliber.
And as a side note, go ahead and register one of your ar's. As much as it would irk me(and probably does you as well), while one is none, I would rather have one than none.
There is also an wierdly worded exemption for guns over 50 years old and C&R guns. So you could get away with a Russian SKS.
The key to being banned seems to be a semiauto gun with a detachable magazine, and then needs to have at least one banned feature. such as:
(A) A SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLE THAT HAS AN ABILITY TO ACCEPT A DETACHABLE
44 MAGAZINE AND HAS AT LEAST ONE OF THE FOLLOWING CHARACTERISTICS:
45 (I) A FOLDING OR TELESCOPING STOCK;
46 (II) A PISTOL GRIP THAT PROTRUDES CONSPICUOUSLY BENEATH THE ACTION OF
47 THE WEAPON;
48 (III) A THUMBHOLE STOCK;
49 (IV) A SECOND HANDGRIP OR A PROTRUDING GRIP THAT CAN BE HELD BY THE
50 NON-TRIGGER HAND;
51 (V) A BAYONET MOUNT;
52 (VI) A FLASH SUPPRESSOR, MUZZLE BREAK, MUZZLE COMPENSATOR, OR THREADED
53 BARREL DESIGNED TO ACCOMMODATE A FLASH SUPPRESSOR, MUZZLE BREAK, OR
54 MUZZLE COMPENSATOR;
55 (VII) A GRENADE LAUNCHER
Tanker Garand in .308 (built by Fulton Armory or such) and/or a "Paratrooper" SKS. Both handle more quickly than their full-size brethren but still pack a wallop.
Money-wise the SKS Para would be cheaper to buy. However, if you've got the cash the Tanker Garand would be a better bet. The Tanker from Fulton can be had with a chrome lined barrel too.
Hell, get both!
As an aside, wouldn't it be kinda cool if they made a 5.56mm SKS type rifle?
Is this correct?: internal mag, top loaded?
You can have ANY detachable magazine semi auto rifle as long as it doesn't have any other evil features beyond the magazine. And yes the magazine always needs to have the magic number of 7 rounds in it.
The SKS is a complaint rifle if it has no stock modifications to it and the fixed magazine has a capacity less then 10 and is only ever loaded with seven.
I still have to read through the entire thread but I figure I'll post my thoughts.
Learn a lever action gun. I've shot every manufacturer of lever guns and I personally think Marlin's ergo's are the best, as are the mechanics of the gun. Henry is a close second. I would avoid any lever action with a top ejection for the cartridge as it totally screws your optics options.
I would also look for a pistol caliber Marlin that holds 10 in the tube as that is probably the best capacity you can legally get outside of .22 in NY state at the moment.
Even better would be if you could get a pistol in the same caliber as the rifle.
I hunt with a Marlin 336 and I love it. It is my go to gun in NY state because I know it is legal, and I can shoot it like the old carbine I use to own before I sold it to someone out of state so that i would be in compliance with Lord Cuomo.
My son's first rifle will be a Henry Lever .22. His hunting rifle will be a lever gun when hunting white tail in NY because I don't hunt in a stand and he won't either. There is something vert conducive to moving and shooting with a lever.
You just reminded me how the 15th is sneaking up on us...
And in closing I would like to say **** CUOMO.
domestique
10-30-13, 00:12
If a attached magazine SKS is leagal... then...
Wouldn't in theory a M1A/M14/mini 14 be legal IF you found a way to attach the magazine permanently? You would then be able to load it via stripper clips. You would have a 308 or 5.56 rifle and still be able to run optics via a scout rail.
The problem would be constructing a permanent magazine. If you could somehow weld the magazine to the stock via the magazine liner it “may” work, but would look awful. Another option may be to JB weld a magazine to the stock. Would still be permanent but not as messy as welding. IF you got it to work it would sure make for an interesting ATF field agent stop.
IMHO it would be easier to move to a free state, but just an idea for anyone daring enough to do it.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-30-13, 00:47
IMHO it would be easier to move to a free state, but just an idea for anyone daring enough to do it.
Easier to move to a free state? I dont see how that would be "easier". Better all around choice to make? Sure thing.
OP, I see alot of merit in the following for you:
Ruger GSR: Quick mag changes, handles like a carbine, good iron sights.
Pistol caliber lever: Easy to top off, great when paired with a pistol of the same caliber, .44 or .357 arent chump change by any means.
But since theyve limited you to 7 rounds, might as well get a damn tomahawk and keep it by your rifle of choice.
Magic_Salad0892
10-30-13, 01:01
SKS is a winning option. Also, there are stock kits which will allow it to accept magazines, if that ever becomes an option.
I'd stash the ARs with the brother, get score an SKS. Plus, AK ammo has a lot going for it.
To me the advantage of pairing the lever with a pistol in the same caliber makes sense but I have zero interest in revolvers and even less in moving away from the G19.
I really like how the SKS and Garand are semi auto. It seems the Garand would be faster and easier to reload. The GSR seems to be a faster and more intuitive reload but slower on follow up shots. I love how small and light the lever is. They're are pretty fast and easy to shoot in my opinion but I'm not sure about topping off vs reloading with a mag or clip, I've only done the latter but with the AR.
This is a tough decision. Thanks Cuomo you sweaty ball sack.
You are VSF'd there. Not to be a wise ass as I spent a few years there as a little kid. But every night I thank God that my Dad who was in the Border Patrol got the hell out 60 years ago...
Love Garands but they are a lot of rifle. "Tankers" are iffy things.
I'm not much of a lever gun person but a friend of mine who is loves his. I'd consider a Marlin .357 carbine a pretty fair social piece.
In any case, good luck.
MountainRaven
10-30-13, 09:09
M1 Garand with M1905 or M1942 bayonet and M1923 cartridge belt.
80 rounds of 30-06 and 16 inches of cold steel….
Get off my lawn.
:D
Would a Mini-14 with the 5 round mags be legal under this BS law? It would seem to be from my understanding of what Ed L posted but I'm not sure.
Not the best rifle in the world but it would at least be in a caliber you already have for the most part.
brickboy240
10-30-13, 10:04
As a long time owner of a Mini-14...I'd choose my 44 mag Marlin lever gun LONG before the Mini-14.
I'd learn the lever gun and have one "modified" by one of these smiths that customizes lever guns for Cowboy Action Shooters. Have the action slicked up and the loading gate spring modded so it can load faster. Maybe a short stroke lever kit.
Have you watched any of the Cowboy Action shooters in action? They can shoot lever actions as fast as many semi-autos and with decent accuracy.
Mount a red dot on the Marlin and you have a decent defensive rifle with good stopping power.
-brickboy240
Brick I'm liking it! Probably a cheaper option too. Well maybe not after the mods.
brickboy240
10-30-13, 11:31
I have owned Marlin 1894s in 357 and 44 mag for over 10 years and shot them quite a bit. Both are accurate enough and for some odd reason, the 44 mag one is very accurate for a lever gun. At the 50yd bench with the stock open sights and 44 mag 240gr soft points, I get a 5 shot group that is one ragged hole the size of a half dollar. Yeah...amazing for a lever gun with stock sights and factory ammo.
Shooting 44 Specials out of the Marlin is like shooting a 22. Quiet and almost no recoil. My daughter was 10 when she first shot the Marlin 44 with the 44Spl loads!
They also make some heavy 300gr hunting loads (Hornady) but I have never used them. The Fiocchi 240gr soft points have taken many wild pigs and one Corsican sheep. They all fell in their tracks with one shot. If you ask me...the 240gr 44 mag load would be VERY effective in a defensive use.
The Marlin 44 mag with the 240gr 44 mag loads seems to have much less recoil than a 336 Marlin in 30-30. I would equate it to maybe a 20ga shotgun using bird loads...very controllable.
The Marlin 1894 is also easy to take apart and clean. No gas system to fool with, either. It works whether it is wet with lube or dry or covered in sand. Half the time....opening the lever and blasting the action with Gun Scrubber will make it totally useable for a long time.
I would give the 44 mag Marlin a serious look. If I lived in a state that did not allow my AR or AK....my Marlin would definitely be my go to defense rifle.
It might not be less expensive than an AR when you do the mods to it, but once you have it "set up" there is little to nothing you will need to keep it running but ammo.
-brickboy240
I'd probably use it stock for awhile. Can you suggest a sling set up?
If a attached magazine SKS is leagal... then...
Wouldn't in theory a M1A/M14/mini 14 be legal IF you found a way to attach the magazine permanently? You would then be able to load it via stripper clips. You would have a 308 or 5.56 rifle and still be able to run optics via a scout rail.
IMHO it would be easier to move to a free state, but just an idea for anyone daring enough to do it.
I've read the law, and as far as I can tell yes making a magazine non detachable would work, but really it is so damn convoluted no one knows what is what.
I may move out of this state, my wife and I decided over dinner that if the job improvements we just went through don't become permanent within a year we're out.
Would a Mini-14 with the 5 round mags be legal under this BS law? It would seem to be from my understanding of what Ed L posted but I'm not sure.
Not the best rifle in the world but it would at least be in a caliber you already have for the most part.
As long as it has no muzzle device, no pistol grip, no fore grip then yes.
The EASIEST way to think about this law is that it changed the law from a Double Feature + ban to a Single Feature + ban. IE if you have more then one single "feature" on your semiautomatic long gun it is an assault weapon.
A detachable magazine is a single feature. So one of anything else on the list will make your gun illegal. So yes, a ruger 10-22 with a muzzle break is illegal under this law.
Mac, what caliber is your Marlin? How much is Ammo? Plentiful? Is it stock or did you mod it? If so, was it expensive? What sling set up do you run? You'd prefer this to a bolt?
brickboy240
10-30-13, 15:51
I actually do not have slings on the 2 Marlins, but do have a repro M1907 sling on my Savage 99 in 243.
I also have another M1907 on my sporterized 03 Springfield and got used to using one, because my dad put it on there and taught me how they used this sling in the Corps on their Garands.
The M1907 is not for everyone but it is handy and makes for a steady rest for quick shooting off hand.
-brickboy240
As long as it has no muzzle device, no pistol grip, no fore grip then yes.
The EASIEST way to think about this law is that it changed the law from a Double Feature + ban to a Single Feature + ban. IE if you have more then one single "feature" on your semiautomatic long gun it is an assault weapon.
A detachable magazine is a single feature. So one of anything else on the list will make your gun illegal. So yes, a ruger 10-22 with a muzzle break is illegal under this law.
Is it one of those deals where they consider the portion you grip on a conventional stock a "pistol grip"?
"Tankers" are iffy things.
That's why I suggested from somewhere like Fulton that has a good rep. There's also a place called Shuffs that does that kind of stuff (and more!).
SilverBullet432
10-30-13, 18:08
Texas welcomes you.
Texas welcomes you.
Thank you. I wish brotha. I can't leave here. I wish I could.
Thank you. I wish brotha. I can't leave here. I wish I could.
The answer is never "can't", but we know that other factors are already more important - for the time being.
The answer is never "can't", but we know that other factors are already more important - for the time being.
Very well put.
Mac, what caliber is your Marlin? How much is Ammo? Plentiful? Is it stock or did you mod it? If so, was it expensive? What sling set up do you run? You'd prefer this to a bolt?
I run an old 30.30 Marlin for hunting only. I grew up with the gun and I know it really well. I've had multiple people shoot it and offer to buy it off of me it hits really well and is a joy to shoot. It's from way before the safety was introduced.
It holds six in the magazine and I would grab it in a heart beat as it is easy to aim and easy to shoot.
I actually didn't have a sling on it for a long time then a friend of mine gave me one of those Spec Ops 3 point slings that he bought at his BX. I installed it on my carbine at the time and hated it, then I put it on the Marlin and it worked perfectly for hunting as there are no buttons to push on the rifle on the left side of the gun (unlike an M4). I've probably done 100 miles with this sling on the gun through really tough terrain, and my only complaint is that the webbing rubs after a while but this year I'm putting a pad on it.
It seems that pistol caliber "rifles" may not perform well from a terminal ballistics standpoint as the velocities can be greater than the rounds are designed for. Even if not the case, any real rifle cartridge should outperform the handgun cartridge.
I would keep one AR and register it and send the other one to my brother
This makes sense to me. ^^^
(and pick up a Garand)
ps, I feel for ya, man. lousy choices.
-john
One that just popped into my head that would be safe compliant. The Browning BAR. Lightweight stalker model has open sights and detachable mag. Gas operated. Anyone with experience. Looks great.
Edit: although sub 7lbs, bbl is 22"
brickboy240
10-31-13, 15:09
I forgot about the BLR. You might also consider an older Savage 99.
Whatever you get....I'd avoid the 223 and 308 calibers.
Why?
Because during every ammo panic...I can find 30-30, 30-06, 243 and 270 ammo. The BLR comes in those calibers. The 223 and 308 stuff disappears first.
-brickboy240
Any BAR experience ?
Fired one at Knob Creek once. Oh, wait.....not that BAR. :D
Seriously though, you could buy a semi-auto one from Ohio Ordnance. Of course you'll drop $4K+.
It seems that pistol caliber "rifles" may not perform well from a terminal ballistics standpoint as the velocities can be greater than the rounds are designed for. Even if not the case, any real rifle cartridge should outperform the handgun cartridge.
I used to have a 16" .357 lever gun. I clocked some Buffalo Bore 158gr Gold Dots one time and was getting almost 2100fps! :eek: That is one helluva shallow hollowpoint so I'd imagine it would hold up pretty good at that velocity.
MountainRaven
10-31-13, 21:55
I forgot about the BLR. You might also consider an older Savage 99.
Whatever you get....I'd avoid the 223 and 308 calibers.
Why?
Because during every ammo panic...I can find 30-30, 30-06, 243 and 270 ammo. The BLR comes in those calibers. The 223 and 308 stuff disappears first.
-brickboy240
Stop it.
You're making me want to reacquire a Winchester 1895 in 30-06.
Weighing my options for post April 15th long gun choices.
1. Register my 2 Ar15s.
2. Ship to my brother out of state or store out of state and take classes in that state when possible
3. Sell them.
If I don't register and keep them around, I've thought of which compliant rifles to buy.
1. Ruger Scout
2. Lever gun
3. Garand
All 3 are compliant. I like the idea of the Ruger since mag changes are possible where they aren't with the lever gun. I love that the Garand is semi auto but clip changes aren't as intuitive as mag changes.
Keeping the Ar15s but not registering is illegal and if ppl choose that route and post it online they aren't smart. Rather be smart.
There is a chance the law gets struck down due to a lawsuit from the NRA/NYSRPA as well as a couple others, so my decision will be made in March if the lawsuit fails. If the lawsuit works and we win, disregard this thread as ill be keeping my 2 and not going to buy any of the above mentioned rifles.
Thanks for future replies,
Rich
I would register both AR-15s and move them out of NYS. I am against registration but I am also against being a convicted felon due to some asshat politician saying that my rifle is a WMD and having a cop "follow orders" and bust me due to a traffic stop while going to the range.
While the law sucks it is best to work within the system while working against it. Give yourself every legal advantage that you can. Don't give them flue to burn you with. Having an unregistered rifle is plenty of flue for them to burn you.
Out off all your options I would look at the following.
Lever Action rifles are great but they have draw backs. A lever action rifle is more like a pump action shotgun. You have to top it off much in the same manner. Can't do a complete reload quick but you can keep topping off the magazine. Yes, you do have detachable box magazine feed rifles but they have low capacity around four to five rounds and the Savage 99 with it's internal rotary magazine is pricey. My Browning BLR is a great rifle but mags only hold four rounds and spare magazines or parts are not cheap.
A pistol caliber Lever Action was called the Long Island Assault Rifle and Brooklyn Assullt Rifle by the late great Col. Cooper. .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .41 Magnum, and .45 Colt are somewhat common in one form or another for a very long time. Winchester, Marlin, and the Italian/Brazilian Clones of older designs have been chambered in all the mentioned calibers. I own a Marling 1894 in .357 Magnum and it is a fine piece but reloading once again is like reloading a shotgun. Slow.... better to top it off before you run the well dry.
Bolt action rifles with detachable magazines are great options but magazines are pricey and can be lost. The Ruger is a heavy beast for what they are advertising it to be. If you are set on a rifle similar to the Ruger Scout then I would say look at Mossberg's MVP. Takes AR-15 magazines and a lighter rifle to carry.
I have two M1 Garands. They are great rifles but are somewhat hampered with their gas system and enbloc magazine system. The original Garand is designed to work with a very specific load and not using that load can damage the rifle. You can get an adjustable gas plug for the rifle and fine tune it to work with commercial hunting loads that would otherwise damage the rifle but it is time consuming to get it running right. You can also modify the magazine to where the enbloc clip is not ejected and thus would allow you to load it much like a FN-49 or SKS Carbine. By doing this the enbloc clip stays and place and can only be removed when the release button is pressed on the side of the receiver when you would want to eject and partially loaded clip.
I would look at a very seldom mentioned design.
The Remington 7600 Series Rifle
http://www.austriaarms.com/database_items/0_1882_remington_7600__police,_.308_win.jpg
The same system of operations as a Remington 870 Shotgun. Chambered in .308 Winchester (Police Package) and a ton of other common hunting calibers. Detachable box magazine with different capacities up to 10rds. Well built, proven design with the bugs worked out, and easy to find parts for.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/smle-man/P1170287.jpg
.30-06 Model with 10rd magazine
Interesting. I wasn't aware of the 7600. Looks to be around $600 too
Yea, that's a good suggestion.
You can also modify the magazine to where the enbloc clip is not ejected and thus would allow you to load it much like a FN-49 or SKS Carbine. By doing this the enbloc clip stays and place and can only be removed when the release button is pressed on the side of the receiver when you would want to eject and partially loaded clip.
???????????????
I've been around Garands for years and wasn't aware of this. Got a link?
brickboy240
11-01-13, 14:28
The 7600 is another good idea....also don't rule out a lightly used older 760 Remington.
I'd skip the 223 and 308 ones though and go for a 243, 270 or 30-06 version. The next ammo panic/shortage....you will be glad you do not own a 223 or 308.
-brickboy240
The 7600 seems to be a winner. So lame that it has to come to this. Which of the those calibers are a good all around? I can't use rifle anywhere near me for hunting if I ever get my ass out to start hunting. My main concern is defense anyway.
brickboy240
11-01-13, 16:00
I'd then go for the 243 caliber Remington 7600 or 760.
Why?
Well, it has much less recoil than the 270 or 30-06. It also stands better chance of being on gun store shelves and at Wal Mart than a box of 223 or 308...especially after one of these panic buying sessions.
You COULD take a deer with it if you had to and it is just an all around pleasant round to shoot and pretty damn accurate.
I doubt anyone would give s second look if you went in and bought a case of 243. I also bet than almost every online retailer and Wal Mart around you HAS 243 in stock....that alone is worth tons.
I don't have a 7600 in 243 but have shot one once. A very pleasant rifle to shoot and fast-handling. I have a Savage 99 in 243 and have used it many times on coyotes and a few deer. the 243 round is very accurate and puts down whitetails and coyotes like lightning...I would suspect it would make a decent defense round.
Besides, a Remmy 7600 in 243 is a very "under the radar" type of rifle.
-brickboy240
Brick you're the man. Thanks for all your help. I believe you just made up my mind
Rich
???????????????
I've been around Garands for years and wasn't aware of this. Got a link?
http://m1thumbsaver.com
Also known as the Holbrook Device.
Brick you're the man. Thanks for all your help. I believe you just made up my mind
Rich
I would also recommended the .243 Winchester. I have a Ruger American chambered in the caliber. Fairly soft recoil and somewhat in stock during panic buys. Here in the FL panhandle their was a run on it but that was because hunting was coming up on top of the panic. This last panic was different; even hunting only cartridges like .30-30 and .270 Winchester were running short in supply. So no cartridge is safe in my opinion from another panic with our current situation.
A Remington 7600 with ghost ring sights and a 1x4 scope chambered in .243 Winchester is a handy rifle for hunting, self defense, and general plinking.
http://m1thumbsaver.com
Also known as the Holbrook Device.
Damn, learn something new every day! Very interesting......(and I'm a southpaw too)
Quite frankly, using stripper clips to load has to be just about as fast as slapping in an 8 round enbloc clip.
Damn, learn something new every day! Very interesting......(and I'm a southpaw too)
Quite frankly, using stripper clips to load has to be just about as fast as slapping in an 8 round enbloc clip.
Can't feed it with stripper clips sadly with the Holbrook Device installed. Simply load it one cartridge at a time.
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