View Full Version : Heat and tubular handguards
I have a DD V7LW that has the Modular rail. I like the narrowness of it and find it comfortble for the thumb-over grip way out. However, I have read where it can get pretty hot pretty quick with sustained strings of fire (haven't done it myself yet). I guess with it being black it could absorb the sun's heat on a scorching summer day out in the sunlight, probably getting REALLY toasty somewhere like Arizona or thereabouts.
What are some remedies for this while still keeping the thumb-over grip? I've seen where some guys have wrapped paracord. Of course you could attach the little rail sections and slap on covers but then the "thinness" is gone. Rubber would get a tacky feel to it with extreme heat, would it not?
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Magpul ladder grips and gloves.
Magpul ladder grips and gloves.
On the DD Modular rail,there is nothing to attach the ladder rail covers to. It is a round slick tube, Picatinny rail on top only.
On the DD Modular rail,there is nothing to attach the ladder rail covers to. It is a round slick tube, Picatinny rail on top only.
Well, you could cut sections just long enough to cover the 3 little rail sections that come with it.....but once again the "thinness" is gone.
Oh, for the other guys: I'm not a glove person. If it's 20 degrees out maybe, but not at 100 degrees. ;) I've always been amazed at all the pics I saw from Iraq of guys wearing gloves when it was 120+! I'm hot natured and sweat like a pig; those gloves would be dripping if it was me!
You could Cerakote it. That helps with the heat transfer and if you go with a lighter color it doesn't get as hot.
On the DD Modular rail,there is nothing to attach the ladder rail covers to. It is a round slick tube, Picatinny rail on top only.
My mistake, I was thinking of the v5 for some reason. I still stand by the gloves though.
Well, you could cut sections just long enough to cover the 3 little rail sections that come with it.....but once again the "thinness" is gone.
Or you could swap it for a keymod rail and get keymod covers for it...
Archer1440
10-31-13, 02:28
Nomex flight glove or Mechanix Mpact glove on the support hand. Pour water on it and it will stay cooler than the rest of you in that Arizona heat.
Well, you could cut sections just long enough to cover the 3 little rail sections that come with it.....but once again the "thinness" is gone.
Oh, for the other guys: I'm not a glove person. If it's 20 degrees out maybe, but not at 100 degrees. ;) I've always been amazed at all the pics I saw from Iraq of guys wearing gloves when it was 120+! I'm hot natured and sweat like a pig; those gloves would be dripping if it was me!
As mentioned, Mechanix gloves. Your sweat will keep the gloves wet and keep your hand cool.
After shooting a few mags through my carbine the other day the barrel was extremely hot, but the DD MFR was still cool enough to hold with my bare hand. I would guess if the MFR is too hot to hold then the barrel would be screaming.
Maybe I'm just a pussy, but I can just imagine how much torn skin I would have running a carbine course without gloves.
I have the Magpul xtm handstop kit on the bottom of the Mfr on the supplied rails. Rail covers on top. It keeps the heat off my hands.
Oh, for the other guys: I'm not a glove person. If it's 20 degrees out maybe, but not at 100 degrees. ;) I've always been amazed at all the pics I saw from Iraq of guys wearing gloves when it was 120+! I'm hot natured and sweat like a pig; those gloves would be dripping if it was me!
Check out the Camel Back Vent gloves. They are pretty good and keeping your hands ventilated while still providing protection.
My NSR rail gets pretty hot too. The rail covers work pretty well by themselves, but extended shooting such as a carbine course pretty much demand gloves. I generally wear gloves anyway (Mechanixwear or PIGs) for that kind of shooting, otherwise the hands really take a beating.
nateebumpo
10-31-13, 15:19
Midwest makes tube covers for their ss g2 that you may be able to adapt. Ive seen them adapted to the troy tubes before and they dont add a whole lot of girth and arent horrible to look at either.
Oh, for the other guys: I'm not a glove person. If it's 20 degrees out maybe, but not at 100 degrees. ;) I've always been amazed at all the pics I saw from Iraq of guys wearing gloves when it was 120+! I'm hot natured and sweat like a pig; those gloves would be dripping if it was me!
Gloves are important gear to protect your hand, especially as you've noticed, that a hand guard can get hot after firing and sitting out in the sun for a while.
Midwest makes tube covers for their ss g2 that you may be able to adapt. Ive seen them adapted to the troy tubes before and they dont add a whole lot of girth and arent horrible to look at either.
Just took a look at them and it would be perfect, to include the handstop. However, it looks like the screws thread right into the MI rail. Wouldn't be able to do that with the DD MFR; it would be a bitch to try and get a nut of some sort inside the rail anywhere but right near the end opening.
nateebumpo
11-01-13, 18:30
Yeah i wasnt sure just an idea. ive been using the magpul screws and flanged nuts to most stuff to troy rails those holes are half inch and they work work pretty well, i tape the nut to straightened coat hanger and fish them down in there. not sure how big the holes are on the dd rails never used one. im sure youll find something to fix you up in the end. good luck.
jdavis6576
11-01-13, 18:49
Have you thought about Line-X or Rhino-Liner truck bed liner? I know it sounds crazy and I've never seen it done but I've considered it. However, my V7 is one a 6.8 so I don't put enough rounds through it to heat up. I've already painted my rail but one day I may get it sprayed just to see how it works.
I've run my V7 through two carbine classes without a single issue. I started both classes with gloves but ditched them quickly. I'm just not a glove guy.
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Not only for protection. Gloves build confidence, or eas of mind.
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I've run my V7 through two carbine classes without a single issue. I started both classes with gloves but ditched them quickly. I'm just not a glove guy.
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I'm not an eye pro guy, I hate eye pro with a passion. Same with ear pro.
But I wear both, even though they're uncomfortable. I'm not a hand pro guy either, but I don't want my hands burnt any more than I want debris in my eyes or to be deaf.
But if your AOR is a cozy or cool climate where you don't expect to shoot more than one mag in any engagement and it's most likely at night and IED-free... You probably don't have to train with gloves.
Carbine classes run your weapons hard, but even in high round count classes, there's often a lot of time to let your weapon cool off between strings/drills.
I always wear thin leather gloves to the range for sake of not getting lead all over my hands. Range days can be long and eating happens on the go. Double benefit is that it protects the hands from heat some. However, even with gloves on, if you shoot it hot, it's going to be too hot to hold for a bit. The biggest benefit is just that you won't burn yourself to blister. Insulation slows it down, but it certainly doesn't eliminate heat.
Ever reholstered your Glock into your IWB and had to rip it back out again in about 2 minutes and fan off your hip?
Packing a 45
11-07-13, 20:05
Maybe I'm just a pussy, but I can just imagine how much torn skin I would have running a carbine course without gloves.
No Pussy just smart. Packing
Make a heat shield out of DEI heat wrap.
How about exhaust wrap?
Hmmm.......just Googled it. How does it stay in place? Found some in black that would not stand out on the MFR.
I'm not an eye pro guy, I hate eye pro with a passion. Same with ear pro.
But I wear both, even though they're uncomfortable. I'm not a hand pro guy either, but I don't want my hands burnt any more than I want debris in my eyes or to be deaf.
But if your AOR is a cozy or cool climate where you don't expect to shoot more than one mag in any engagement and it's most likely at night and IED-free... You probably don't have to train with gloves.
Carbine classes run your weapons hard, but even in high round count classes, there's often a lot of time to let your weapon cool off between strings/drills. I know where my lane is and I stay in it :D I can't imagine a scenario in my civilian life where gloves are going to be a deal breaker with my AR. I'm not in the military or LEO, or I'd be wearing gloves.
In regards to the OP, he needs to decide what the primary use for his weapon is. In my case a tubular handguard works just fine and doesn't get too hot for my use. However, I couldn't imagine using one in a military style job.
I know where my lane is and I stay in it :D I can't imagine a scenario in my civilian life where gloves are going to be a deal breaker with my AR. I'm not in the military or LEO, or I'd be wearing gloves.
In regards to the OP, he needs to decide what the primary use for his weapon is. In my case a tubular handguard works just fine and doesn't get too hot for my use. However, I couldn't imagine using one in a military style job.
I actually chose the NSR as my go-to handguard partially because I like the idea of keymod, partially because I like Noveske, but mostly because it's a very light and small diameter free floated handguard with the ability to mount very low profile polymer panels to protect against heat. :)
In regards to the OP, he needs to decide what the primary use for his weapon is. In my case a tubular handguard works just fine and doesn't get too hot for my use. However, I couldn't imagine using one in a military style job.
As in any of my weapons I think of "worst case" scenarios and want them to function in any environment. Even though I don't live near a desert or a jungle I want them to operate as designed in those environs. Likewise, as far as hard use, even to a "go to war" degree, I want it to work. So if, God forbid, I ever had to put down enough rounds to smoke the barrel I'd like to consider how best to address that scenario.
The exhaust wrap sounds interesting, as I'd only need maybe 4 or 5 inches of it wrapped around the end of the tube where I grip with the thumb-over style.
skullworks
11-08-13, 06:22
+1 for gloves. I too am "just" a civilian, but once you try shooting from barricades or trying to see how fast you can go from standing to prone and hitting a target, a glove will greatly improve the level of joy you get out of your range time. I compete in IPSC Rifle and even though we rarely shoot any extended strings of fire the firearms do tend to get warm-to-hot, and there's often the need for supported shooting positions from barricades made out of old pallets and/or unfinished planks that will give you splinters just from looking at them, or to be able to go prone as fast as physically possible.
Nomex flight glove or Mechanix Mpact glove on the support hand. Pour water on it and it will stay cooler than the rest of you in that Arizona heat.
...until you grab something hot. Grabbing something hot with wet gloves will quickly get you burned
...until you grab something hot. Grabbing something hot with wet gloves will quickly get you burned
That's actually false.
Water has a very high specific heat capacity. Wetting your hands before touching something hot prevents burns. It's why you can lick your fingers & pinch out a candle without getting burned. Ever see the experiment where a guy wets his finger & then stirs molten lead?
Not saying you won't get burned, just that the added water will delay the burn, not quicken it.
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IndianaBoy
11-08-13, 08:44
That's actually false.
Water has a very high specific heat capacity. Wetting your hands before touching something hot prevents burns. It's why you can lick your fingers & punch out a candle without getting burned. Ever see the experiment where a guy wets his finger & then stirs molten lead?
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4.184 Joules per gram degree celsius /nerd off
4.184 Joules per gram degree celsius /nerd off
I was thinking it's closer to 4.186 J/g but I'll take your word for it. ;)
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I wear gloves for the military and work when using a carbine but never have preferred them. FWIW I've ran numerous carbine classes without gloves and never had an issue. Even when I wear gloves I cut the finger tips off and on occasion used a tube rail for said classes.
Archer1440
11-08-13, 09:53
All I know is, after I won the 499 class shoot off at Gunsite and received my certificate, the instructors also presented me with a second, framed certificate- which was covered in fake blood and bandaids- to commemorate all the cuts and gouges I had sustained during the week.
That's why I learned to work with gloves whenever doing anything requiring aggressive manipulation, etc.
That's actually false.
Water has a very high specific heat capacity. Wetting your hands before touching something hot prevents burns. It's why you can lick your fingers & pinch out a candle without getting burned. Ever see the experiment where a guy wets his finger & then stirs molten lead?
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Actually very true. A wet glove in contact with anything well above 250 deg. will give you a nasty steam burn. Time spent around arc welded parts will teach you this lesson quickly. You will figure out just how fast you can get that glove off of your hand.
Archer1440
11-08-13, 10:12
OK, fellows, let's drag this mule back to the path shall we?
Can we agree "gloves good, burns bad" and move on?
Sure, as long as we get accurate information out there. My experience with wet gloves, wet rags or wet pot holders, is that using them to grab hot parts will get you burned every time, whether they are wet with water, oil or solvent
Probably has to do with more surface area contact with a wet glove than a dry one.
SilverBullet432
11-08-13, 14:55
I got some gloves to shoot my dd with (v4) burned through 250 rounds and the rail was still cool, bbl sure was hot though, but the rail was cool, :dirol:
That's actually false.
Water has a very high specific heat capacity. Wetting your hands before touching something hot prevents burns. It's why you can lick your fingers & pinch out a candle without getting burned. Ever see the experiment where a guy wets his finger & then stirs molten lead?
Not saying you won't get burned, just that the added water will delay the burn, not quicken it.
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MistWolf is right.
Water protects your finger from momentary contact with a heat source above the flash temperature by explosively flashing to steam and insulating your finger against the heat of the item. You'll note that if you lick your finger and touch a very hot object, the only reason you don't get burned is because you immediately, reflexively, pull your finger back. If you held it there any longer than it takes for the spittle to flash and vaporize, you'd be just as burned as if you didn't lick your finger.
Water absorbs heat- and transfers it to anything it's contacting. We're talking about insulation against a constant heat source- not the effect of a momentary steam flash. Insulation always works better dry than wet. Water absorbs and transfers heat to anything it's touching- it's the opposite effect of insulation. This is why down insulation cannot get wet, or it becomes worse than useless. All your body heat is sucked out and transferred to the cold air around you. A wet glove soaks up heat and transfers it to the hand, which it's stuck to, way more efficiently than a dry glove.
Get a pair of gloves. Wet one, keep the other dry. Grab something above 212F with both hands... see what happens.
MistWolf is right.
Water protects your finger from momentary contact with a heat source above the flash temperature by explosively flashing to steam and insulating your finger against the heat of the item. You'll note that if you lick your finger and touch a very hot object, the only reason you don't get burned is because you immediately, reflexively, pull your finger back. If you held it there any longer than it takes for the spittle to flash and vaporize, you'd be just as burned as if you didn't lick your finger.
Water absorbs heat- and transfers it to anything it's contacting. We're talking about insulation against a constant heat source- not the effect of a momentary steam flash. Insulation always works better dry than wet. Water absorbs and transfers heat to anything it's touching- it's the opposite effect of insulation. This is why down insulation cannot get wet, or it becomes worse than useless. All your body heat is sucked out and transferred to the cold air around you. A wet glove soaks up heat and transfers it to the hand, which it's stuck to, way more efficiently than a dry glove.
Get a pair of gloves. Wet one, keep the other dry. Grab something above 212F with both hands... see what happens.
Exactly.
MistWolf is right.
Water protects your finger from momentary contact with a heat source above the flash temperature by explosively flashing to steam and insulating your finger against the heat of the item. You'll note that if you lick your finger and touch a very hot object, the only reason you don't get burned is because you immediately, reflexively, pull your finger back. If you held it there any longer than it takes for the spittle to flash and vaporize, you'd be just as burned as if you didn't lick your finger.
Water absorbs heat- and transfers it to anything it's contacting. We're talking about insulation against a constant heat source- not the effect of a momentary steam flash. Insulation always works better dry than wet. Water absorbs and transfers heat to anything it's touching- it's the opposite effect of insulation. This is why down insulation cannot get wet, or it becomes worse than useless. All your body heat is sucked out and transferred to the cold air around you. A wet glove soaks up heat and transfers it to the hand, which it's stuck to, way more efficiently than a dry glove.
Get a pair of gloves. Wet one, keep the other dry. Grab something above 212F with both hands... see what happens.
I wasn't speaking of a soaked to the skin/saturated glove firmly held to a hot stove like apparently Mist Wolf was. Quick contact (seconds) with severely hot items will bode better with a damp surface vs a dry surface. There's a big difference & it was a misunderstanding
We're still only dealing with holding a handguard on a gun, not holding your hand directly onto a hot weld.
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Water has a much higher density than air (duh). Higher density means more particles (read atoms and molecules) are impacting one another per unit of time. Anytime there is an impact there is energy transfer. Since you have a higher probability of impact with fluids and solids than with gases, more impacts will occur per second. The more impacts per second means more exchanges of energy per second. Heat or temperature is a measure of energy. More heat units are transferred per second with a liquid and a solid than with a gas.
Let's compare.
We measure how quickly a substance transfers heat in terms of thermal conductivity1. This will change based on density and a number of other factors. Lets assume STP for all materials involved.
Thermal conductivity of air at STP2: .0257k
Thermal conductivity of water at STP: .580k
Water is significantly more efficient at transferring energy as you can see.
I'm a biologist, I don't get to talk about this stuff very often.
References:
1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity
2: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html
Edit: Mistwolf is also correct about the Leidenfrost effect.
I'd rather not derail this guy's thread any further. Feel free to PM me if anyone wishes to discuss Thermodynamics or the specific heat capacity of water.
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wild_wild_wes
11-10-13, 20:00
You could Cerakote it. That helps with the heat transfer and if you go with a lighter color it doesn't get as hot.
I hope someday 6.5 Grendel ammo will be available in enough quantities that I can overheat the Cerakote...
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