View Full Version : Noveske Gen III Rifles
LtNovakUSA
10-31-13, 20:49
Anybody taken a look at these yet? They look pretty nice (it is Noveske after all). The upper receiver itself looks pretty interesting.
http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/gen-iii
They do look nice. Looks like they got away from the MUR receivers as well.
Nice to see they went with the Raptor CH but it needs a BAD Inc lever.
Nice, but when can you actually buy one? I can't find a 16" Recon anywhere, except GB where the guy want 2X MSRP.
What's different about the GenIII? Obviously a new upper receiver and CH, but it says the lower is different too? Looks the same.
Free Agent
10-31-13, 22:23
It looks to be a billet version of the gen 2.
What's different about the GenIII? Obviously a new upper receiver and CH, but it says the lower is different too? Looks the same.
I love how they're making the Raptor CH and Magpul STR standard. Great taste in parts, although MBUS Pro BUIS instead if Troys would have been nice.
Also would have been great if they used the opportunity of a new lower to make it ambi. :)
Seems like the quad rail is new too, but it doesn't seem too different besides that it looks like it uses a NSR barrel nut now. And it looks like the switchblock rifles use the old rail.
I can't afford one but I'd love to know more about that upper receiver.
jerrysimons
10-31-13, 22:55
Dang those look good! They have really put together a great package.
It looks to be a billet version of the gen 2.
The flare does not appear to extend as far down. They are compatible with Surefire 60rd mags (look at the picture on the 10.5" rifle page).
Are the receivers billet or forged?
Dang those look good! They have really put together a great package.
The flare does not appear to extend as far down. They are compatible with Surefire 60rd mags (look at the picture on the 10.5" rifle page).
Are the receivers billit or forged?
The fencing is different. Also yeah. More compatibility with mags.
jerrysimons
10-31-13, 23:10
The fencing is different. Also yeah. More compatibility with mags.
Sorry, what is fencing?
Sorry, what is fencing?
The fence is the raised part that makes accidentally hitting your mag release harder, as well as the part above that parallel to the upper edge of the lower.
The GenII fence extends vertically below the fence around the mag release. The GenIII does not.
They seem to be shaped different, with a more gentle slope on the GenII and a more steep slope on the GenIII with a flat raised portion. The GenII fence is closer to mil spec in design while the GenIII reminds me of Magpul lowers.
GenII right side: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0259/2561/products/r-trsc-556_2d_1024x1024.jpg
GenIII right side: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0259/2561/products/G3R-16-556_3_1024x1024.jpg
SilverBullet432
10-31-13, 23:24
dat new website....
Holy **** over 2500 dollars and I though KAC was expensive
elephantrider
11-01-13, 00:13
$2,500+ for a billet upper/lower rifle?:confused:
If you don't line the price, don't buy it. They are obviously good sellers and supply doesn't seem to meet demand.
Rockhopper
11-01-13, 01:35
dat new website....so far, not a fan. very generic.
Hopefully they'll do 8" 300BLK and 14.5" 5.56 again.
Do most people who get a Noveske keep the hand guard stock?
...why does a 10.5" gun weigh 7 pounds? Does all that "pretty" really make up for the roughly 1.5# more weight you're lugging around? When you consider that the bare rifle weighs as much as a comparable rifle with a suppressor AND an Aimpoint T1 in place...:confused:
Yes, I know I know "So shut up and don't buy one." Don't worry---I won't. I can assure you of that much. It just made my eyes bug out that the thing is so bloody heavy for a 10.5" DI carbine, and I had to ask...why? What's the "return" for that weight? Looks? I compared it to a comparable Gen II, and it's several ounces heavier. I would think making a gun lighter > making a gun heavier. There is absolutely ZERO benefit to those pounds and ounces, IMO, unless someone has a logical explanation? I'm genuinely curious as to the *why*, here.
http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/noveske-cqb-switchblock-rifle
jerrysimons
11-01-13, 02:37
As several know, I have a personal issue with the Noveske product, so I'll try not to sling too much mud, but I did click the link and one thing caught my eye...why does a 10.5" gun weigh 7 pounds? Does all that "pretty" really make up for the roughly 1.5# more weight you're lugging around? When you consider that the bare rifle weighs as much as a comparable rifle with a suppressor AND an Aimpoint T1 in place...:confused:
Yes, I know I know "So shut up and don't buy one." Don't worry---I won't. I can assure you of that much. It just made my eyes bug out that the thing is so bloody heavy for a 10.5" DI carbine, and I had to ask...why? What's the "return" for that weight? Looks?
http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/noveske-cqb-switchblock-rifle
It is stainless barrel with a heavier profile and has the switchblock, to gather probably about 6-7oz more.
It is stainless barrel with a heavier profile and has the switchblock, to gather probably about 6-7oz more.
Even taking 7oz off, that leaves it a solid pound more than the competition. I think it's more about looks than performance with that company, but hey, sexy sells, and business is about profit! :cool:
My Noveske 16" Recon upper was very well made, accurate and reliable. The barrel was a tack driver with standard ammo and served me well overseas.
Are there are other barrels? Yep. Are some cheaper? Yep. Are some better? Maybe.
I'm not a fan.
Let me clarify. I am a fan of Noveske products, but I am not a fan of the new Gen III rifles.
I don't like the look of the Gen III rifles at all. I think the Gen II's had much smoother lines and were easier on the eyes. I also don't understand the move away from the MUR uppers... Are the Gen III uppers better in some way? If so, they don't seem to be doing a very good job of making the case. I think a lot of people would prefer the tried-and-true MUR upper compared to a new untested upper with very little available information. I know I would - I don't see this new upper offering anything the MUR doesn't already... They're also still sporting the AAC 51T flash hiders. That's fine for the guys that like them, and want to run an AAC can, but I would have liked to see a drop down menu with different options, including offerings from Surefire and SilencerCo for starters. That is one thing Noveske does not seem to do well on - options. You either like the way they think the rifle should be, or you can change it yourself. I'm sure part of it is cost, but people are willing to pay extra for extra options. They're already paying for a premium rifle.
I like that they have switched to the Magpul STR stocks, but I wish they offered color options and the option to upgrade the buffer system to the Vltor A5. I also like the switch to the Raptor charging handle, but as previously mentioned think they should have incorporated other ambidextrous options as well (such as a BAD-CASS or even a full ambi lower), especially for the price. I would have also liked to see an option to delete the sights and save a few bucks. Not everyone wants Troy sights.
Aside from that, I don't see a whole lot of major differences between the Gen II and Gen III rifles to justify the price jump... Same barrel offerings, same rails, same BCG, same trigger, non-ambi... Maybe it's just me? :confused:
For me, it's all too little, too late anyway. I'm nearly done with a build I started earlier this year after coming to the conclusion that the Gen II's didn't offer everything I wanted either. At one point in time I was seriously considering laying down a stack of Benji's for a complete Noveske rifle, and then later on I almost decided to go with a complete Noveske upper. Now, the only Noveske components on my build are a Noveske QD endplate, Noveske NSR, and a Noveske 16" Recon barrel (which I am still searching for). Noveske has no trouble turning out excellent products, but it is unfortunate that they cannot solve their real problem - actually having rifles and components available for sale. :(
My Noveske 16" Recon upper was very well made, accurate and reliable. The barrel was a tack driver with standard ammo and served me well overseas.
Are there are other barrels? Yep. Are some cheaper? Yep. Are some better? Maybe.
I'm glad yours was a good one. I have heard their stainless barrels are good. Their CHF barrels had horrible POI shifts (4MOA for one, and 7-8 MOA for the other) with my Surefire, but they were accurate for me at least. The funky lowers were a source of issue (out of spec, fitment issues with one, feeding issues with the other), and it's my fault for choosing the VLTOR/VIS for an upper, won't make that mistake again. I take the blame for that choice.
On another note, look at the "Johnny Rifle". That one looks like they used the good parts instead of the overweight proprietary spec stuff: http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/johnny-rifle
How do you know that the barrel was the issue and not the can and or mount? I may be wrong, but I am fairly certain that their chrome lined barrels are made by FN. Noveske then does some final finishing in house.
I actually kind of like the VIS. It's a little heavy but at the right price it's cheaper than a rail and upper in some cases.
I'm glad yours was a good one. I have heard their stainless barrels are good. Their CHF barrels had horrible POI shifts (4MOA for one, and 7-8 MOA for the other) with my Surefire, but they were accurate for me at least. The funky lowers were a source of issue (out of spec, fitment issues with one, feeding issues with the other), and it's my fault for choosing the VLTOR/VIS for an upper, won't make that mistake again. I take the blame for that choice.
On another note, look at the "Johnny Rifle". That one looks like they used the good parts instead of the overweight proprietary spec stuff: http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/johnny-rifle
How do you know that the barrel was the issue and not the can and or mount? I may be wrong, but I am fairly certain that their chrome lined barrels are made by FN. Noveske then does some final finishing in house.
Because I sent the whole contraption (complete upper and can) to Surefire and they ran multiple mounts and multiple cans on it, ran my can on multiple guns, etc. and it was definitely my Noveske upper that is the problem, as every can they had shot very low on my upper, and my can shot within 1MOA POA on/off on all of their uppers. Also, they changed mount types on my upper, tried the brake, tried the FH, etc. Same results each time. Every item was ruled out piece by piece. I cannot think of any other conclusion.
I actually kind of like the VIS. It's a little heavy but at the right price it's cheaper than a rail and upper in some cases.
The VIS/MUR is heavy, but you're right, it can be cheaper. However, you're stuck with it. It's made of 6601 instead of 7075, and if you bend the rail, well, that sucks...
I bought the VIS/MUR because it was pretty and I bought into the "monolithic---strong like bull, nothing to loosen up!" mentality until I lugged it around all day and shot hundreds of rounds a day through it for a few week-ends. I then came to despise the extra weight. That's noone's fault but my own, though, I chose that upper and own that.
The Gen II FFL lowers served to be nothing but issue after issue for me, causing misfeeds from Lancer AWM's, not accepting Gen 3 PMAG's (fixed later), and not adhering to mil-spec dimensions and not fitting some mil-spec uppers because of it.
In short, gimme something that works vs. something that's pretty.
A 7 pound 10.5" SBR with a match-grade heavy stainless barrel on it is just...??? Looks like a "Because I can and I wear Gucci socks, too!" type rifle rather than a useful working tool. I mean, it weighs within a few ounces or so empty of the HK416 10" with a loaded magazine, and it's a DI gun. Maybe I'm just bitter because of my poor experiences, but I can't see how that SBR or any of the overweight offerings are anything but show-pieces.
The "Johnny Rifle" looks like solid work, what with the proper upper and lower and all, but the other stuff on their new page? Artwork first, problem solving tool second.
jerrysimons
11-01-13, 06:35
Call me a fanboy, but jeez, this isn't Burger King. You can't blame Noveske for putting together a complete offering and not being a completly custom shop. You complain about Noveske supply lagging behind damand but you would never see a product availible if every rifle was built to order. Now I know it is frustrating to spend that much money on a rifle and still have to dump loads into it to get it the way you want it, but if what Noveske offers is not worth it to you go see Grants BCM page start from there for $1k.
WS6's problems are legit and his situation with getting screwed by CS is sad, but as unfortunate as his circumstance is, he is literally the only person I have heard of who had legit problems that didn't get taken care of.
All I want to know is if the receivers are machined from billet or forgings.
Call me a fanboy, but jeez, this isn't Burger King. You can't blame Noveske for putting together a complete offering and not being a completly custom shop. You complain about Noveske supply lagging behind damand but you would never see a product availible if every rifle was built to order. Now I know it is frustrating to spend that much money on a rifle and still have to dump loads into it to get it the way you want it, but if what Noveske offers is not worth it to you go see Grants BCM page start from there for $1k.
WS6's problems are legit and his situation with getting screwed by CS is sad, but as unfortunate as his circumstance is, he is literally the only person I have heard of who had legit problems that didn't get taken care of.
All I want to know is if the receivers are machined from billet or forgings.
Aside from that, and even assuming it is flawlessly correct dimensionally, and runs like a raped ape, I'm still looking at a 7 pound 10.5" gun, before a loaded mag or optics or a light ever go near it.
That's ridiculous, I don't care how you try to justify it.
The "old Noveske" made much more sensible gear, back before John Noveske was taken before his time, and they began capitalizing on the looks of their employees and other things that had nothing to do with building a good rifle. To me, they are kindof like RedJacket now, except their stuff isn't that bad, and Sheri and Nikita actually do look good. Still, the similarities in current business model are very striking, and it's a huge turn-off.
No amount of tears or wishes or prayers will bring John Noveske back to his family, his friends, or his company, and that is a true tragedy that goes far beyond any companies products, but sadly, that cannot be changed. What can, and what I wish would, though, is that they would turn the clock back on their current trends and get back to building no-nonsense guns the right way, and leave all the nip-slip YouTube videos and 7 pound "precision" 10 inch SBR's and all that to someone else. I can't imagine the internal turmoil they are going through, but I hope they sort it out and get back in the game.
I remember a time when their guns were light, handy, and ran like a raped ape. They didn't include unnecessary "Gucci" crap. When a lot of people got in hot water over a picture of Sheri. When their customer service was on the ball. Bring THAT back. Not some heavier-yet version of all the current products. :(
It's maybe a $50-100 increase. Cry me a river.
As stated before: if you don't like it, don't buy it. :rolleyes:
I believe on the video that was on the home page it showed a CNC machine making the new Gen 3 lower. So I would guess it's billet.
Are the Gen 2 lowers no more?
jerrysimons
11-01-13, 08:29
Aside from that, and even assuming it is flawlessly correct dimensionally, and runs like a raped ape, I'm still looking at a 7 pound 10.5" gun, before a loaded mag or optics or a light ever go near it.
That's ridiculous, I don't care how you try to justify it.
The "old Noveske" made much more sensible gear, back before John Noveske was taken before his time, and they began capitalizing on the looks of their employees and other things that had nothing to do with building a good rifle. To me, they are kindof like RedJacket now, except their stuff isn't that bad, and Sheri and Nikita actually do look good. Still, the similarities in current business model are very striking, and it's a huge turn-off.
No amount of tears or wishes or prayers will bring John Noveske back to his family, his friends, or his company, and that is a true tragedy that goes far beyond any companies products, but sadly, that cannot be changed. What can, and what I wish would, though, is that they would turn the clock back on their current trends and get back to building no-nonsense guns the right way, and leave all the nip-slip YouTube videos and 7 pound "precision" 10 inch SBR's and all that to someone else. I can't imagine the internal turmoil they are going through, but I hope they sort it out and get back in the game.
I remember a time when their guns were light, handy, and ran like a raped ape. They didn't include unnecessary "Gucci" crap. When a lot of people got in hot water over a picture of Sheri. When their customer service was on the ball. Bring THAT back. Not some heavier-yet version of all the current products. :(
Woa, just because their rifles look sick and Noveske gives mind to aesthetics doesn't mean their quality has gone to crap, your unfortunate experience not withstanding.
As for a 10" precision barrel, the more mechanically accurate the better. Noveske has said their 10" SS is one of the most precise barrels they make due to its rigidity and many serious trigger pullers do quite alot with 10" barrels...
Free Agent
11-01-13, 08:41
I'm not a fan of any of Noveske's new product line. I'm confused as to why they chose to change their receivers to billet? Like others have said, if you don't like it don't buy it. I don't like it so I'll spend my money elsewhere.
I remember a time when their guns were light, handy, and ran like a raped ape. They didn't include unnecessary "Gucci" crap. . :(
I love this! Pete
ROG Tactical
11-01-13, 09:03
They're also still sporting the AAC 51T flash hiders. That's fine for the guys that like them, and want to run an AAC can, but I would have liked to see a drop down menu with different options, including offerings from Surefire and SilencerCo for starters.
:(
A drop down menu would be nice, but you actually do have options for muzzle devices. You have to contact them directly to have one built, or contact one of their dealers. I get them configured with Battlecomps and Surefire Brakes all the time...in addition to various AAC devices.
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
I would much rather them SHIP ME THE RIFLE I ORDERED LAST DECEMBER than spend all this time on new models....
They're also still sporting the AAC 51T flash hiders. That's fine for the guys that like them, and want to run an AAC can, but I would have liked to see a drop down menu with different options, including offerings from Surefire and SilencerCo for starters. That is one thing Noveske does not seem to do well on - options. You either like the way they think the rifle should be, or you can change it yourself.
I'm pretty sure this is a limitation of their web site. When I ordered my rifle back in 2012, they were happy to change components (for an upcharge). I think they are still a place that you want to deal with over the phone if the options on their web site don't meet your needs.
-john
'm confused as to why they chose to change their receivers to billet?
Just a wild guess, but I suspect they are trying to have greater in-house control. Pretty hard for a small shop to do forged work, much easier to drop some CNC machines on the floor. Or... They can prototype in-house and then outsource the production. They can make changes easier, faster and probably cheaper. Probably can scale production faster. Less reliant on specific mfg. shops.
It would be interesting to consider how hard, fast and costly the minor adjustment they made for the Gen II to accept Magpul M3 mags was. My guess is this would be a lot easier with an all CNC approach.
Likewise they were probably powerless to scale up production during the 2012-2013 shortage because they rely on external vendors.
I'm kinda guessing the Gen III stuff is more or less functionally on par with the Gen II (as opposed to "better"), but provides Noveske with some advantages.
-john
KalashniKEV
11-01-13, 10:45
1) All I wanted to see on that site was a 14.5" SKINNY MOE.
2) I'm not upset about the new upper receiver. Time will tell if it's GTG or not, but it's just another option. The looks may not be for everyone (I still like the MUR), but it's not driving the weight terribly or doing anything "bad." Did you guys complain this much when new styles of handguards or buttstocks hit the market? More options are better.
3) As far as the barrels, I'm sure as they build their catalog they will offer standard weight and LW options as before. The SWS rail is a beast and SS barrels are heavy too. I suppose it depends on what you're used to, but I've been told my 12.5" Crusader Switchblock is "heavy" and I certainly don't think so.
4) "If I were in charge" I would build a line of no BS rifles and a line of boutique rifles with non-standard controls, fancy rails, and all that stuff. Like a Tudor/ Rolex thing...
5) I hope they drop Troy in favor of MBUS Pro. I too would like to see the Trifecta, Vortex, SF, BC, and other options as a drop down.
6) I am glad the "No Shoes, No Shirt, NOVESKE" logo girl isn't wearing shoes anymore... because that just didn't make any sense. :)
Comparing Noveske to Red Jacket is a bit much...don't you think?
In the end if you don't like what they're offering then you can buy something else or build one yourself. No harm done.
does anyone know if the gen3 lowers are compatible with surefire 60rd mags?
does anyone know if the gen3 lowers are compatible with surefire 60rd mags?
Looks like it:
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0259/2561/products/STCK2101-5_1024x1024.jpg
WickedWillis
11-01-13, 14:17
Comparing Noveske to Red Jacket is a bit much...don't you think?
In the end if you don't like what they're offering then you can buy something else or build one yourself. No harm done.
Yeah that is a borderline offensive statement there. Noveske doesn't sell gimmicky firearms. They make high quality rifles and barrels, like you said yourself, if they don't like the price don't buy it. Are some of their products priced a tad high? Sure. It's nice to see though that the company is still going strong after the loss of John.
I own 2 Noveske rifles and I'm not sure I like the changes.
The MUR was allready an ounce or two heaver than a standard forged upper and the new upper seems to add weight and bulk and i'm not sure what the benefit is to us. This also flies in the face of what the NSR hand guard is all about, lightness and efficiency.
Also the price seems quite a bit higher than before.
It is good that they standardized on the NSR BBL nut and changed the quad rails to use it.
I like them a lot. Noveske makes some of the best damn rifles in the world. And there is plenty of competition out there for their products such as KAC, LaRue, etc. and Noveske is STILL always sold out. They are like white buffalos in any local or online gun shop.
I wonder if they are just putting out billet lowers while they wait for new dies for new forgings, then they will switch back to forged lowers.
If not, I'm not any more impressed with their billet lower than any one else's.
MikeCLeonard
11-01-13, 16:57
...why does a 10.5" gun weigh 7 pounds? Does all that "pretty" really make up for the roughly 1.5# more weight you're lugging around? When you consider that the bare rifle weighs as much as a comparable rifle with a suppressor AND an Aimpoint T1 in place...:confused:
Yes, I know I know "So shut up and don't buy one." Don't worry---I won't. I can assure you of that much. It just made my eyes bug out that the thing is so bloody heavy for a 10.5" DI carbine, and I had to ask...why? What's the "return" for that weight? Looks? I compared it to a comparable Gen II, and it's several ounces heavier. I would think making a gun lighter > making a gun heavier. There is absolutely ZERO benefit to those pounds and ounces, IMO, unless someone has a logical explanation? I'm genuinely curious as to the *why*, here.
http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/noveske-cqb-switchblock-rifle
I'm seeing that it doesn't even weigh a pound more than a stock Colt commando.
Considering the Noveske comes with a suppressor mount, 9" quad rail, and that pretty hefty Magpul stock...I don't see the uproar over the weight. You could probably get really close to the weight of the Colt by just switching to a lighter stock. Not to mention you're looking at the weight with a stainless barrel. The chrome lined version is probably lighter.
I'm seeing that it doesn't even weigh a pound more than a stock Colt commando.
Considering the Noveske comes with a suppressor mount, 9" quad rail, and that pretty hefty Magpul stock...I don't see the uproar over the weight. You could probably get really close to the weight of the Colt by just switching to a lighter stock. Not to mention you're looking at the weight with a stainless barrel. The chrome lined version is probably lighter.
Agreed, the weight difference in just the stock and barrel is 8.2oz between the commando and the noveske.
Yeah that is a borderline offensive statement there. Noveske doesn't sell gimmicky firearms. They make high quality rifles and barrels, like you said yourself, if they don't like the price don't buy it. Are some of their products priced a tad high? Sure. It's nice to see though that the company is still going strong after the loss of John.
I wonder if it's as borderline offensive as an out of spec NFA lower (and CS's offer to build me another upper on my dime "if I want to try out 300BLK" to custom match my out of spec lower (which they did not offer to look at), verified by Daniel Defense, who actually took the time to measure it, and attempt to put over half a dozen different uppers on, to no avail, discovering it outside of tolerance?)
I wonder if it's as borderline offensive as having consistent failures to feed on reloads using certain magazines (Lancer L5 AWM) because the proprietary lower is machined in such a way that magazines don't seat as deeply as normal real mil-spec lowers and the bolt catches the cartridge case much higher up, causing nose-dives/FTF every now and then? (I didn't even bother mentioning it once I was told that they would be happy to build an upper to fit my out of spec SBR lower, on my dime. What's a mag-reload failure every 500 rounds compared to that? Didn't mention it)
I wonder if it's as borderline offensive as a 4, and a 7-8 MOA POI shift (2 different rifles) with a known <1MOA shift producing suppressor (verified on multiple guns by Surefire)? (when asked about POI shift, I was told it's individual to each rifle, no, they throw away the Surefire beveled shim, Surefire re-installed the muzzle device correctly for me when they tested my upper and can, no, it did not fix it).
At what point...should I PERSONALLY be borderline offended by the performance of the products and company which I paid $2500/ea for which has never once offered to handle up on an issue, but has had two other companies personally trouble-shoot Noveske's product because of issues it's caused with THEIR products?
I'm there brother, I'm offended. YMMV, and yes, maybe I've...borderline offended some people. Sorry 'bout that, but I think $5K is enough of a ticket to pay to have been able to say been there, done that, and give an honest opinion of the experience. I think they are heavy Gucci products for people who care more about looks than real-world performance, and nothing is going to convince me that a 7 pound 10.5" DI gun is smart money being spent, and nothing is going to change my mind on the CS of that company, or their products, which I will quite happily call "gimmicky", given my own experiences.
I think that buying from THIS page would probably have solved a lot of the issues I have had, except for the CS, and if you want something with an iron cross, I strongly suggest it: http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/gen-i
These are made from proper parts, and should avoid most, if not all of the "Gucci" issues my rifles had. Yes, I bought into the "looks" thing, no denying it, but I've learned a bit since then by actually shooting them. Their Gen 3 stuff? It's just heavier Gen II stuff. SSDD.
That's tough luck on your part and unfortunate that Noveske is unable resolve the issue to your satisfaction. I still think it's a bit much comparing Noveske to a company like Red Jacket.
I have 2 Noveske (Gen 1 & 2 lower) rifles with a couple of thousand rounds between them with 0 issues.
Back on topic though I prefer the look of the MUR upper as someone else stated.
I like Noveske stuff, certainly the bling factor plays a role, but my Noveske runs well and my experiences with Noveske CS have all been positive. I don't mind the Gen III rifles, nor do I mind the price point, it is marginally higher than their previous rifles.
Will I buy a gen III rifle? No, my money is going to training and ammo, items that no expensive gun can replace.
1slow01Z71
11-01-13, 21:44
Definitely not a fan of their new website but other than that I don't understand the complaints. Obviously their product sells at the prices they ask so you cant fault them for that. Really wish theyd do another run of 8.2 300blk barrels but other than that I cant fault them. I built my own noveske with a gen 2 lower, regular mur upper and 13.5 NSR. I built my rifle exactly how I wanted for a few hundred less than they sells their house built guns for. Not everyone wants to or can build their own and for the quality parts they put in their rifles the price is fairly close to what other top teir offerings run. At that price point 1-200 either way isn't a deal breaker IMO.
Boba Fett v2
11-01-13, 22:39
I like Noveske stuff, especially their barrels. Their new offerings look like nice guns, but if I'm going to spend money on complete factory builds at that price point, I'll choose KAC every time. With that said I'm very proud of my KAC/Noveske SBR build.
Sent from my piece of s**t phone using Tapatalk2 (which can be equally unreliable when coupled with a junk phone)
Aside from that, and even assuming it is flawlessly correct dimensionally, and runs like a raped ape, I'm still looking at a 7 pound 10.5" gun, before a loaded mag or optics or a light ever go near it.
That's ridiculous, I don't care how you try to justify it.
The "old Noveske" made much more sensible gear, back before John Noveske was taken before his time, and they began capitalizing on the looks of their employees and other things that had nothing to do with building a good rifle. To me, they are kindof like RedJacket now, except their stuff isn't that bad, and Sheri and Nikita actually do look good. Still, the similarities in current business model are very striking, and it's a huge turn-off.
No amount of tears or wishes or prayers will bring John Noveske back to his family, his friends, or his company, and that is a true tragedy that goes far beyond any companies products, but sadly, that cannot be changed. What can, and what I wish would, though, is that they would turn the clock back on their current trends and get back to building no-nonsense guns the right way, and leave all the nip-slip YouTube videos and 7 pound "precision" 10 inch SBR's and all that to someone else. I can't imagine the internal turmoil they are going through, but I hope they sort it out and get back in the game.
I remember a time when their guns were light, handy, and ran like a raped ape. They didn't include unnecessary "Gucci" crap. When a lot of people got in hot water over a picture of Sheri. When their customer service was on the ball. Bring THAT back. Not some heavier-yet version of all the current products. :(
I respect your opinion but I think you're over reaching a little bit. Other than going billet and switching the stock and charging handle what's really so "Gucci" about these gen 3's? This thing isn't much different than my gen 2 afghan rifle so I am not sure why you feel the way you do.
And seriously, I love me some Noveske but their old website was 100x more professional. They should've just moved that one to the new URL, and just thrown their new stuff on there.
This place has become ARFCOM, with typical bitching from people who should STFU because they have no idea what they are talking about.
I respect your opinion but I think you're over reaching a little bit. Other than going billet and switching the stock and charging handle what's really so "Gucci" about these gen 3's? This thing isn't much different than my gen 2 afghan rifle so I am not sure why you feel the way you do.
The gen I is considerably lighter, cheaper, and does the same thing. I have not seen a gen III lower in person, but my milspec lowers don't have the feeding issues that my gen II lowers did. I bet they are also more likely to be actual milspec compatible for those who may wish to use them on another upper.
The gen I is considerably lighter, cheaper, and does the same thing. I have not seen a gen III lower in person, but my milspec lowers don't have the feeding issues that my gen II lowers did. I bet they are also more likely to be actual milspec compatible for those who may wish to use them on another upper.
WS6. It's pretty simple. If you can't justify the cost then don't buy it. There will be plenty of other people more than happy to take your place in line.
Since Johns passing, Noveske hadn't missed a beat imo. They're doing a fine job to keep it as seamless as possible after their beloved boss died.
What more do you expect from them less than a year later? Props to them for keeping things fresh.
I'm excited to see what the future holds with Noveske. I think the Gen III products will be great and if they can do more in house it will be excellent quality as well as more control over how many rifles/uppers/parts they can put out.
I'm seeing that it doesn't even weigh a pound more than a stock Colt commando.
Considering the Noveske comes with a suppressor mount, 9" quad rail, and that pretty hefty Magpul stock...I don't see the uproar over the weight. You could probably get really close to the weight of the Colt by just switching to a lighter stock. Not to mention you're looking at the weight with a stainless barrel. The chrome lined version is probably lighter.
I replaced it with an sbr with a rail only 1/2" shorter that weighs only a touch over 5.5#. Ymmv, but there is no excuse for 7# 10.5" guns.
Look at their gen 1 rifles. Same 10.5" gun except a few ounces lighter stock, and even with the kx3 its still over half a pound lighter. That pretty billet bling just adds weight for no darn good reason, and gave me tons of headaches on my gen 2, although yes, that's forged.
Is definitely stick with the gen 1 products if its a gun you need to count on.
I replaced it with an sbr with a rail only 1/2" shorter that weighs only a touch over 5.5#. Ymmv, but there is no excuse for 7# 10.5" guns.
Look at their gen 1 rifles. Same 10.5" gun except a few ounces lighter stock, and even with the kx3 its still over half a pound lighter. That pretty billet bling just adds weight for no darn good reason, and gave me tons of headaches on my gen 2, although yes, that's forged.
Is definitely stick with the gen 1 products if its a gun you need to count on.
Are you seriously making recommendations on products that aren't even released?
I also don't know where you're getting your numbers.
10.5" gen3 5.56 CL w/ NSR: 6lbs 5.3oz
That's with a KX3, which is like 7.5 oz.
Unless you're talking about the SS barrel with the quadrail, which we all know is heavy as hell.
So replacing it with an A2 is 5 lbs 14 oz or so. Replacing the STR with a MOE stock gets you down to 5 lbs 10 oz or so.
Are you seriously making recommendations on products that aren't even released?
I'm as serious as a 7# sbr. It will weigh 7# now, and likely 7# when its released. As to cost, I could care less. The rifle has always been cheaper than the suppressors and optics I hang on them, anyways. It's functionality I'm harping on, here. Proprietary parts that weigh a lot don't have any place on it, imo. The gen 3 stuff is heavier yet than the gen 2 stuff. I think the gen 1 stuff is likely solid kit. The gen 3? It does look killer in photos, but what does it DO for the user?
Eta: check out the gen I in weight, with the nsr. Very light.
Proprietary parts that weigh a lot don't have any place on it, imo. The gen 3 stuff is heavier yet than the gen 2 stuff. I think the gen 1 stuff is likely solid kit. The gen 3? It does look killer in photos, but what does it DO for the user?
I edited my above post to add info on weight... I'm not seeing the massive weight that you are.
It's a good question on what the gen3 stuff does for the user besides allowing surefire 60s. But how about lets wait until they release some info on the gen3 stuff at SHOT (Jan '14 release date) instead of assuming?
Eta: sorry you were looking at the switchblock. The old SWS rails are extremely heavy, as were the barrel nuts. Considering the math done in the other post, it's the rail and/or the switchblock that's heavy, not the receivers. I'm sure the receivers add a little weight since they're physically bigger, but 9.5" SWS rail with SB cutout is 16oz...
I edited my above post to add info on weight... I'm not seeing the massive weight that you are.
It's a good question on what the gen3 stuff does for the user besides allowing surefire 60s. But how about lets wait until they release some info on the gen3 stuff at SHOT (Jan '14 release date) instead of assuming?
It just looks good and costs money. When I get home, ill try to add up the weights, but they are seriously fat in factory configuration. I saw your post, but we aren't talking an upper and lower build at the point you're at with mix and match, not a complete noveske. Regardless, how's an optic that weighs 0.0oz sound? T1 on a gen 1 vs. Gen 3 in identical configuration. Costs less to boot...free optic with zero weight and you will have a better chance of getting an in spec gun that will play nice with other milspec uppers or lowers.
gesundheit
11-03-13, 01:30
Anyone know if they will be offering the upper receiver for sale separately? I would like to use it with my existing NSR and Noveske barrel setup.
It just looks good and costs money. When I get home, ill try to add up the weights, but they are seriously fat in factory configuration. I saw your post, but we aren't talking an upper and lower build at the point you're at with mix and match, not a complete noveske. Regardless, how's an optic that weighs 0.0oz sound? T1 on a gen 1 vs. Gen 3 in identical configuration. Costs less to boot...free optic with zero weight and you will have a better chance of getting an in spec gun that will play nice with other milspec uppers or lowers.
Replacing a muzzle device and stock are hardly at "build" level of configuration, especially since muzzle devices are one of the most varied components people run. But I was trying to compare apples to apples. Noveske's 10.5" CL gen3 gun with a NSR is below 6 lbs with nearly any muzzle device besides the kx3.
The gen3 10.5" CL with NSR is just over an oz heavier than the gen1 10.5" CL... Which means if they had the same stock, the gen3 would actually be lighter. 6 lbs 5.3oz for gen3 with NSR and STR vs 6 lbs 4 oz for gen1 with CTR, both with 10.5" N4 CL barrel and KX3.
Replacing a muzzle device and stock are hardly at "build" level of configuration, especially since muzzle devices are one of the most varied components people run. But I was trying to compare apples to apples. Noveske's 10.5" CL gen3 gun with a NSR is below 6 lbs with nearly any muzzle device besides the kx3.
The gen3 10.5" CL with NSR is just over an oz heavier than the gen1 10.5" CL... Which means if they had the same stock, the gen3 would actually be lighter. 6 lbs 5.3oz for gen3 with NSR and STR vs 6 lbs 4 oz for gen1 with CTR, both with 10.5" N4 CL barrel and KX3.
The common configurations they are offered in are seriously fat. The proprietary upper and lower offer no advantages. The gen 1 guns are for shooting and gen 3 for looking, in my not so humble, opinion, based on experiences with the tricked out gen 2's.
It's a bling bling thing, and will help them make more guns since they are doing more machining in house.
The common configurations they are offered in are seriously fat. The proprietary upper and lower offer no advantages. The gen 1 guns are for shooting and gen 3 for looking, in my not so humble, opinion, based on experiences with the tricked out gen 2's.
Here's another very close apples to apples comparison:
Both have 10.5" CL barrels with quad rail, troy buis, kx3, h2 buffer, and similar pistol grips.
Gen1: 6 lbs 8.6 oz with CTR
http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/noveske-shorty-entry-level-rifle
Gen3: 6 lbs 14.1 oz with STR
http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/noveske-cqb-rifle
So subtracting the 3.5 oz difference between CTR and STR for the exact same configuration means the gen3 receiver set weights almost exactly 2 oz more than gen1 (standard) receivers.
So really, the extra weight on Noveske 10.5" guns comes from the KX3 and SWS rail, as I said earlier. :)
If you want Noveske, the quintessential rifle now is the gen3 recon (stainless) with 13.5" NSR. Before, it was the MUR upper with same rail and barrel. Their 10.5" builds are... Interesting... And not how I would have (and have) built them, but their 16" rifles set the standard in balance, weight, and accuracy.
Here's another very close apples to apples comparison:
Both have 10.5" CL barrels with quad rail, troy buis, kx3, h2 buffer, and similar pistol grips.
Gen1: 6 lbs 8.6 oz with CTR
http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/noveske-shorty-entry-level-rifle
Gen3: 6 lbs 14.1 oz with STR
http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/noveske-cqb-rifle
So subtracting the 3.5 oz difference between CTR and STR for the exact same configuration means the gen3 receiver set weights almost exactly 2 oz more than gen1 (standard) receivers.
So really, the extra weight on Noveske 10.5" guns comes from the KX3 and SWS rail, as I said earlier. :)
I digress. Numbers don't lie. That said, its 2oz of proprietary bling. I want lowers I can swap uppers on, etc. That means milspec. The billet uppers and lowers are certainly pretty, and aesthetics are legit reasons to buy, and im sure they sell. Functionally, though, its not easy to justify.
I digress. Numbers don't lie. That said, its 2oz of proprietary bling. I want lowers I can swap uppers on, etc. That means milspec. The billet uppers and lowers are certainly pretty, and aesthetics are legit reasons to buy, and im sure they sell. Functionally, though, its not easy to justify.
I concur. Rainier's billet ultramatch upper claims 3x or better than competitors in:
- Parallelism between the picatinny rail, main center bore and the centerline of the mounting lugs
- Perpendicularity between the centerline of the lugs and the barrel mating face (at the front of the threads)
- Flatness of the barrel mating face
It's possible Noveske is trying to do the same for their uppers to get the most accuracy possible.
As for their lowers, it's a standard lower with a flared magwell for faster reloads and an integrated trigger guard... That's about all the changes made over a regular lower.
Anyway, we should probably wait until a press release or interview happens before getting too hung up on why they chose to change their uppers besides for aesthetics.
I concur. Rainier's billet ultramatch upper claims 3x or better than competitors in:
- Parallelism between the picatinny rail, main center bore and the centerline of the mounting lugs
- Perpendicularity between the centerline of the lugs and the barrel mating face (at the front of the threads)
- Flatness of the barrel mating face
It's possible Noveske is trying to do the same for their uppers to get the most accuracy possible.
As for their lowers, it's a standard lower with a flared magwell for faster reloads and an integrated trigger guard... That's about all the changes made over a regular lower.
Anyway, we should probably wait until a press release or interview happens before getting too hung up on why they chose to change their uppers besides for aesthetics.
They can claim all they want about dimensional stability and consistency, it doesn't translate in the real world. My two have very notable poi shifts with a can, and the fsp has to nearly be bottomed out to zero 1" low at 25y (roughly 200m cross over.) On one. This with the Vltor uppers. The mk12 is one of the most accurate m4's in the world and somehow manages with its milspec upper and lower forgings.
Anyone know if they will be offering the upper receiver for sale separately? I would like to use it with my existing NSR and Noveske barrel setup.
Maybe as a blem? I don't think they offered the Noveske MUR separately unless it was a blemished upper... Or maybe they did and it was never in stock, idk. I know I was never able to find one, which is why I bought a Vltor.
Maybe as a blem? I don't think they offered the Noveske MUR separately unless it was a blemished upper... Or maybe they did and it was never in stock, idk. I know I was never able to find one, which is why I bought a Vltor.
Sure they do. I've bought one. Unblemished
Sent via Tapatalk
Ok, I want to make sure I am following you so far.
You said your stuff was jacked up and you contacted Noveske and they told you there was no issue and refused to fix the issue. Does that sum it up? Also, were these factory builds or Noveske parts that were assembled? I just want to make sure that we have all the facts.
They can claim all they want about dimensional stability and consistency, it doesn't translate in the real world. My two have very notable poi shifts with a can, and the fsp has to nearly be bottomed out to zero 1" low at 25y (roughly 200m cross over.) On one. This with the Vltor uppers. The mk12 is one of the most accurate m4's in the world and somehow manages with its milspec upper and lower forgings.
I thought this was a thread about "Noveske Gen III Rifles".
Why are we bitching about personal problems? Isn't there another thread and/or site for that?
Can we please get this thread back on track?
Crazy thing but I'm not really concerned about ounces. I carry a rifle and its ok whatever it weighs..Don't have to swim with it so I'm good. Worry about water, ammo and armor.. Can we just love Noveske for being a AR manufacturer. If you don't like their rifles, buy a sticker to be cool and move on
GO Ducks
Ok, I want to make sure I am following you so far.
You said your stuff was jacked up and you contacted Noveske and they told you there was no issue and refused to fix the issue. Does that sum it up? Also, were these factory builds or Noveske parts that were assembled? I just want to make sure that we have all the facts.
4moa shift was listed as normal. Complete factory rifle and factory attached muzzle device.
Sbr lower came on complete rifle, upper was swapped with another from that batch. When another upper which did not come from noveske was attempted to be placed on lower, it would not fit. Daniel Defense was the manufacturer. Both lower and upper were sent to DD, who tried half a dozen uppers. None fit. They then measured the lower, and found it to be out of milspec tolerance. At this point, Noveske was contacted. They confirmed before hearing this that their gen 2 FFL lowers were "milspec". Two minutes after hearing this, they then stated "that they can only guarantee fit on the rifle the lower came with, and if you want to try the 300 blackout, we can make you an upper that will fit your lower." I declined, as I took the backpedalling and cheap sales attempt without offer to inspect the lower to verify tolerances as a pretty low insult.
At this point, I did not even see why mentioning the failure to feed issues with Lancer mags would matter, if an out of spec lower in other aspects didn't, and I did not bring it up.
Ever since these interactions, I've stuck with quality milspec forged upper and lower components and not had an issue. I have purchased from companies who do not try to sell you more crap instead of at least inspecting what caused the issue. It is my opinion that these gen 3 components have nothing but looks to offer over the tried and true components of the gen 1 rifles, and like the gen 2 products I had, may well have some downsides, especially for the class 3 customer. Buyer beware.
*it was later that I confirmed via surefire that the upper on the sbr was to blame for the 7-8moa shift. By this time, I had relegated it to a plinker, anyway, and sold all of my other noveske products. It was and is annoying, but it is what it is, lesson learned. I approached Noveske politely and in good faith, and got what I got. The customer-company relationship between us dissolved at that point and is irreparable. No amount of 300% more straight tolerances or anything prevented the issue, once again affirming what my friends had told me about my "designer rifles".
gesundheit
11-03-13, 06:22
WS6, your last post indicates you switched the Noveske upper with a DD one and it didn't fit and DD found out that the lower was not milled to milspec. What exactly were the measurements?
This needs to be addressed in another thread as your problems with Gen II have no bearing on Noveske Gen III rifles. Your posts (and the resulting replies) are only helping to derail this thread.
Sure they do. I've bought one. Unblemished
Exactly. I have seen them on sale but had other priorities and missed out. I will take a chainsaw version when it becomes available.
P.S. I dig the new website. The older one was not designed well.
I'm with you, there. The new website is functionally superior. I'm sure pretty pictures will come later.
I can almost guarantee the switch to billet is for higher quality control and less reliance on suppliers.
Did anyone notice the new billet upper has the same contour of the NSR rather than the somewhat milspec contour of the MUR's? Pretty interesting!
I love everything I own that says Noveske on it (0 problems whatsoever), but judging rifles before anyone has seen or tested them is a bit premature IMO.
4) "If I were in charge" I would build a line of no BS rifles and a line of boutique rifles with non-standard controls, fancy rails, and all that stuff. Like a Tudor/ Rolex thing...
I would like to echo this sentiment. That's exactly how I would run a company like Noveske or even just a small gun shop.
A rack full of Colt 6920s, BCMs, DD and a finer corner of La Rue, Noveske and KAC etc.
The best thing any business owner can do is give the client options, granted its within we reason.
I like the new gen IIIs.
So the take away is someone swapped an upper and found an out of spec Noveske lower. That sucks.. Shouldn't happen. But some of these comments are just way out there. Noveske is far from a bouquet company. What the hell is that all about? They are innovating the same as LaRue and KAC. It's not like they are dropping the standard milspec lineup so for those purist customers they aren't diverging from their wants and needs. I see no issue.
ROG Tactical
11-03-13, 14:34
1)
4) "If I were in charge" I would build a line of no BS rifles and a line of boutique rifles with non-standard controls, fancy rails, and all that stuff. Like a Tudor/ Rolex thing...
Noveske actually does offer a no BS configuration. It is their "Basic" model.
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
jerrysimons
11-03-13, 16:16
I can almost guarantee the switch to billet is for higher quality control and less reliance on suppliers.
Did anyone notice the new billet upper has the same contour of the NSR rather than the somewhat milspec contour of the MUR's? Pretty interesting!
I love everything I own that says Noveske on it (0 problems whatsoever), but judging rifles before anyone has seen or tested them is a bit premature IMO.
Sure did! Awesome.
ROG Tactical
11-03-13, 16:55
Did anyone notice the new billet upper has the same contour of the NSR rather than the somewhat milspec contour of the MUR's? Pretty interesting!
Actually, although the Noveske MUR is forged it has the same dimensions as the original Vltor Billet MUR and not like the current Vltor MUR-1a, which has the more typical forged front end. I agree, the new upper receiver looks very interesting!
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
KalashniKEV
11-03-13, 17:28
Noveske actually does offer a no BS configuration. It is their "Basic" model.
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
You're right... stupid mistake on my part, I never clicked off the Gen III tab.
So I guess the "lines" are:
Basic: Gen I lower, Std. Upper, CHF barrel, Std. FSB, Std. HGs
Infantry: Gen I lower, Std. Upper, CHF or SS barrel, Lo-pro GB, SWS rail
Rogue Hunter: Gen I lower, Std. Upper, SS barrel, Lo-pro GB, NSR rail
Gen III: Gen III lower, Gen III upper, CHF or SS barrel, Lo-pro GB, SWS or NSR rail
I would come up with a cool name for the "GEN III" line quick, because it's pretty confusing and begs the question, "What happened to GEN II?"
This is pretty interesting too for the 16" guns:
DIRECT GAS-IMPINGEMENT
-5.56mm, Stainless/CHF = Mid-length gas system
-300BLK, CHF= Carbine Length gas system
-300BLK, Stainless = Pistol length gas system
I guess there's a reason the SS 300BLK barrels always have a pistol length gas system?
I get that it's optimized for SBRs so it makes sense to port it closer...
So the take away is someone swapped an upper and found an out of spec Noveske lower. That sucks.. Shouldn't happen. But some of these comments are just way out there. Noveske is far from a bouquet company. What the hell is that all about? They are innovating the same as LaRue and KAC. It's not like they are dropping the standard milspec lineup so for those purist customers they aren't diverging from their wants and needs. I see no issue.
That's my entire point. Some people are leghumping the Gen 3. I'm not, and I'm explaining why. Stick with the Gen 1's, IMO. This thread IS about the Gen 3, and my comments ARE RELATIVE, as the Gen 3 is just more of the same with the Gen 2. Same philosophy.
jerrysimons
11-03-13, 18:21
That's my entire point. Some people are leghumping the Gen 3. I'm not, and I'm explaining why. Stick with the Gen 1's, IMO. This thread IS about the Gen 3, and my comments ARE RELATIVE, as the Gen 3 is just more of the same with the Gen 2. Same philosophy.
You got an out-of-spec, factory, SBR lower. Tuff luck (really:(), but that is a QC issue. It is not like the Gen 2 or Gen 3 lowers are designed to a different spec in function critical dimensions. A flared magwell and integral trigger guard are not function critical divegance from mil-spec.
SeriousStudent
11-03-13, 18:22
That's my entire point. Some people are leghumping the Gen 3. I'm not, and I'm explaining why. Stick with the Gen 1's, IMO. This thread IS about the Gen 3, and my comments ARE RELATIVE, as the Gen 3 is just more of the same with the Gen 2. Same philosophy.
And every person on this board is now intimately familiar with how you feel on the subject. You may consider your point made. I hope I've just made mine.
Once again. I have a tricked out gen 2 and I'd take a gen 3 any day of the week.
jerrysimons
11-03-13, 20:51
16" rifle
Stainless -5.56 w/NSR: 6lbs 15oz
Chrome lined - 5.56 w/ NSR: 6lbs 13.9oz
It seems the Gen 3 stainless barrels are their light stainless profile. Their medium profile Recon barrels are 35oz and these are only 1.1oz heavier than the 29oz chrome lined barrel.
I'm not a fanboy of any particular rifle company since I own and have owned lots of different makes and models of rifles/uppers/lowers over the years. Noveske remains at the top of my list. I have three in my current inventory and will buy more at some point. I have no reason to believe that the Gen 3 rifles will be any different quality wise from every other generation of rifles Noveske has built.
It's obvious there are some Noveske haters posting in this thread but I can assure you that Noveske's reputation stands on it's own and a few posters on M4C will not change that.
I would love to own a Gen 3 rifle but they are expensive. They are more expensive than some folks are willing to spend. I get that and lucky for those, there are many other excellent options on the market to choose from these days.
I wish they made a gen3 .308!
I wish they made a gen3 .308!
I'm still waiting for a gen2 N6 much less a gen3
I wish they made a gen3 .308!
They kept hinting at it before John Noveske passed. Maybe sometime later this year? I can't help but think circumstances delayed it, but doubt they would scrap one of his projects without much thought.
SeriousStudent. Yes. I think we both understand each other khales lens clear.
They are innovating the same as LaRue and KAC.
That is a very bold statement, especially in regards to KAC.
Noveske makes some very nice SS barrels, I have an SPR barrel and love it. It has an intermediate gas system which is innovative, but also developed by Vltor.
KAC achievements are to long to list, but the E3 bolt system and AMBI forged lower are two huge ones.
The LaRue rail/upper receiver interface is a total departure from milspec, Noveske not at all. LaRue also has the integrated trigger guard which is actually a really simple addition.
Noveske makes a lower that is billet and not forged, this is not a innovation it is actually not even as good as milspec. It has a flared mag-well and an integrated trigger guard. There is nothing innovative here, just a couple extra lines in a CAD file. Are they nice little additions sure, but lets be honest here they are neither ground breaking nor difficult to do. Something like an ambi lower takes a lot of brain power and R&D. As does the E3 bolt system.
Both the KAC and Larue rifles are cheaper (significantly) and offer a lot more.
So what again is so innovative about the Noveske rifles, and what justifies the prices?
That is a very bold statement, especially in regards to KAC.
Noveske makes some very nice SS barrels, I have an SPR barrel and love it. It has an intermediate gas system which is innovative, but also developed by Vltor.
KAC achievements are to long to list, but the E3 bolt system and AMBI forged lower are two huge ones.
The LaRue rail/upper receiver interface is a total departure from milspec, Noveske not at all. LaRue also has the integrated trigger guard which is actually a really simple addition.
Noveske makes a lower that is billet and not forged, this is not a innovation it is actually not even as good as milspec. It has a flared mag-well and an integrated trigger guard. There is nothing innovative here, just a couple extra lines in a CAD file. Are they nice little additions sure, but lets be honest here they are neither ground breaking nor difficult to do. Something like an ambi lower takes a lot of brain power and R&D. As does the E3 bolt system.
Both the KAC and Larue rifles are cheaper (significantly) and offer a lot more.
So what again is so innovative about the Noveske rifles, and what justifies the prices?
Sheri
That is a very bold statement, especially in regards to KAC.
Noveske makes some very nice SS barrels, I have an SPR barrel and love it. It has an intermediate gas system which is innovative, but also developed by Vltor.
KAC achievements are to long to list, but the E3 bolt system and AMBI forged lower are two huge ones.
The LaRue rail/upper receiver interface is a total departure from milspec, Noveske not at all. LaRue also has the integrated trigger guard which is actually a really simple addition.
Noveske makes a lower that is billet and not forged, this is not a innovation it is actually not even as good as milspec. It has a flared mag-well and an integrated trigger guard. There is nothing innovative here, just a couple extra lines in a CAD file. Are they nice little additions sure, but lets be honest here they are neither ground breaking nor difficult to do. Something like an ambi lower takes a lot of brain power and R&D. As does the E3 bolt system.
Both the KAC and Larue rifles are cheaper (significantly) and offer a lot more.
So what again is so innovative about the Noveske rifles, and what justifies the prices?
The gen2 lower and Noveske MUR upper are forged. It's possible and even probable that the gen3 stuff is billet. Larue uppers and lowers are also billet. Double standard much?
Noveske created some things... qd end plate, adapted the magpul scar selector to ARs, the KX3, their own barrels and chamber, the switchblock, a lot of keymod accessories, the NSR, etc.
I don't know what justifies their prices. They may be doing what Trijicon and others do, create a huge msrp then allow distributors and dealers (rogtac, rainier, dsg, etc) to mark down prices.
The gen2 lower and Noveske MUR upper are forged. It's possible and even probable that the gen3 stuff is billet. Larue uppers and lowers are also billet. Double standard much?
I am making no claims the LaRue lower is forged and or better than the Noveske lower. I wish the Larue stuff was forged too. Lower to lower I like the Noveske better with the magwell, its just not that special. KAC is the company that really came to market with an innovative lower.
I am saying that the ways the LaRue rail/upper interfaces are above and beyond more innovative than the Noveske.
The MUR upper is a rebranded Vltor piece, I would consider Vltor to have brought many innovative items to market. MUR, VIS, A5 system, ect.
Keymod is neat, but not my cup of tea. I never see myself with one. The NSR however other than the keymod is not impressive, ultimately its quite simple in design and not really anything new.
Quite frankly I think the KX3 is stupid, for the length added you could have a 12.5" barrel, a ton more velocity that comes with it and the operating issues of the 10.3" fixed. Its also not a new idea, its just an adaptation of the Krinkov muzzle device.
Here's my issue, a basic Noveske gen 1 is 1730$, theres absolutely nothing that justifies it being more than 1250$ http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/noveske-recce-basic-rifle it offers nothing a BCM from grant would offer for 1212$ when I put it all in a cart. Same setup but with moe handgaurd, still has forged barrel.
But heres the kicker this is what 1682$ gets you from LaRue, http://www.laruetactical.com/16”-larue-tactical-predatar-556 it offer MORE than this similar 2575$ rifle from Noveske http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/noveske-recon-rifle
That 900$ difference is nothing but a solid F-you to the customer. Enough of an F-you I don't see myself buying any more Noveske products in the future. I just can't bring myself to support that sort of behavior.
As some one else said in this thread their rifles are back ordered, so basic economics would indicate people are more than willing to pay these prices. But as many other threads on this forum will indicate people will pay stupid prices for stupid shit all day long. A sucker is born everyday. At this point I would consider anyone who shells out the cash for one of these to be a sucker, they could have bought an equal or better rifle, plus an optic, sling and mags for that price.
Here's my issue a basic Noveske gen 1 is 1730$, there absolutely nothing that justifies it being more than 1250$ http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/noveske-recce-basic-rifle it offers nothing a BCM from grant would offer for 1212$ when I put it all in a cart. Same setup but with moe handgaurd, still has forged barrel.
But heres the kicker this is what 1682$ gets you from LaRue, http://www.laruetactical.com/16”-larue-tactical-predatar-556 it offer MORE than this similar 2575$ rifle from Noveske http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/noveske-recon-rifle
That 900$ difference is nothing but a solid F-you to the customer. Enough of an F-you I don't see myself buying any more Noveske products in the future. I just can't bring myself to support that sort of behavior.
As some one else said in this thread their rifles are back ordered, so basic economics would indicate people are more than willing to pay these prices. But as many other threads on this forum will indicate people will pay stupid prices for stupid shit all day long. A sucker is born everyday. At this point I would consider anyone who shells out the cash for one of these to be a sucker, they could have bought an equal or better rifle, plus an optic, sling and mags for that price.
My thoughts exactly. I think all of us respect the company and the products they bring to the market, but I feel that the end product and price point don't add up, especially when compared to similar offerings from other manufactures.
But as others have said, Noveske products are always out of stock, so their business plan works.
I am making no claims the LaRue lower is forged and or better than the Noveske lower. I wish the Larue stuff was forged too. Lower to lower I like the Noveske better with the magwell, its just not that special. KAC is the company that really came to market with an innovative lower.
I am saying that the ways the LaRue rail/upper interfaces are above and beyond more innovative than the Noveske.
The MUR upper is a rebranded Vltor piece, I would consider Vltor to have brought many innovative items to market. MUR, VIS, A5 system, ect.
Keymod is neat, but not my cup of tea. I never see myself with one. The NSR however other than the keymod is not impressive, ultimately its quite simple in design and not really anything new.
Quite frankly I think the KX3 is stupid, for the length added you could have a 12.5" barrel, a ton more velocity that comes with it and the operating issues of the 10.3" fixed. Its also not a new idea, its just an adaptation of the Krinkov muzzle device.
Here's my issue a basic Noveske gen 1 is 1730$, there absolutely nothing that justifies it being more than 1250$ http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/noveske-recce-basic-rifle it offers nothing a BCM from grant would offer for 1212$ when I put it all in a cart. Same setup but with moe handgaurd, still has forged barrel.
But heres the kicker this is what 1682$ gets you from LaRue, http://www.laruetactical.com/16”-larue-tactical-predatar-556 it offer MORE than this similar 2575$ rifle from Noveske http://shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/noveske-recon-rifle
That 900$ difference is nothing but a solid F-you to the customer. Enough of an F-you I don't see myself buying any more Noveske products in the future. I just can't bring myself to support that sort of behavior.
As some one else said in this thread their rifles are back ordered, so basic economics would indicate people are more than willing to pay these prices. But as many other threads on this forum will indicate people will pay stupid prices for stupid shit all day long. A sucker is born everyday. At this point I would consider anyone who shells out the cash for one of these to be a sucker, they could have bought an equal or better rifle, plus an optic, sling and mags for that price.
Colt still looks good at $997...:p
Colt still looks good at $997...:p
I've not seen a Colt for $997. $1097 yes.. Found one last month at walmart. But in the hand the Colt is no where near the feel and quality.
Since this is the hot Noveske thread, can anyone explain this ambi lower I found on their website?
http://noveske.com/data/works/15full.jpg
Since this is the hot Noveske thread, can anyone explain this ambi lower I found on their website?
http://noveske.com/data/works/15full.jpg
That's a Norgon Ambi magazine release, not an ambi lower. (at least from what we can see)
jerrysimons
11-04-13, 12:33
Delete
That's what I thought at first as well, but it has a fence around the controls, unlike the Noveske Gen I lower... it looks like the ambi mag release looks a bit different that the other Norgon's I have seen.
That's what I thought at first as well, but it has a fence around the controls, unlike the Noveske Gen I lower... it looks like the ambi mag release looks a bit different that the other Norgon's I have seen.
I don't see a fence around the controls. Normal lower.
That Norgon looks like every other Norgon.
It's just a great photo with flattering lighting, maybe some color/image enhancements, taken from an angle you don't typically see that is making the shadows, etc. play differently to your eyes. Stickman is good at making such images. Amazing photography.
But in the hand the Colt is no where near the feel and quality.
Compared to that Nov Gen lll I'll take a Colt in both hands and a nice pile of magazines...:eek:
If you don't line the price, don't buy it.
Its not that I do not like the price, its that I can not afford the rifle at that price.
If I am going to spend more than $1,200 on a rifle, it sure aint gonna be for an AR15. My DS Arms FN/FAL was only $1,300, and I can take that deer with that rifle all day long.
There is no way an AR15 is worth over $2,000.
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.
Its not that I do not like the price, its that I can not afford the rifle at that price.
If I am going to spend more than $1,200 on a rifle, it sure aint gonna be for an AR15. My DS Arms FN/FAL was only $1,300, and I can take that deer with that rifle all day long.
There is no way an AR15 is worth over $2,000.
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.
Thank you.
I believe most of the time you get what you pay for. If you want quality you are going to have to pay for it.
But I also believe in a price point of diminishing return.
Noveske rifles look freaking awesome, and I would love to have one. But they are out of my price range.
If anything I would buy a Noveske upper and put it on something like a BCM lower.
Its not that I do not like the price, its that I can not afford the rifle at that price.
If I am going to spend more than $1,200 on a rifle, it sure aint gonna be for an AR15. My DS Arms FN/FAL was only $1,300, and I can take that deer with that rifle all day long.
There is no way an AR15 is worth over $2,000.
Worth is very subjective, and is personal.
As to deer, the AR-15/5.56 can do them all day long out to at least 300 yards if you do your part.
Worth is very subjective, and is personal.
I would not say value is "very" subjective, but it can be somewhat subjective.
Just because someone says a quarter is worth $1, does not magically make the quarter worth $1. And not any rare or silver quarter. Your standard everyday run of the mill quarter is worth 25 cents. Just because someone tries to sell it for a $1 does not make it worth $1.
Just because some gun company says their rifles are worth over $2k does not make it so.
It might be a high quality AR, but how much higher quality can it be than something like a colt 6920, DD and BCM? If I have to spend $2k to buy a good quality AR, then the 6920 must be junk.
The honest truth is the 6920 is the gold standard to the AR market. If the 6920 is the gold standard, then why does something else cost twice as much?
Either those $2k ARs are overpriced, or the 6920 and DDM4 are junk.
As to deer, the AR-15/5.56 can do them all day long out to at least 300 yards if you do your part.
1. Some states prohibit hunting deer with anything smaller than a 6mm/243.
2. There is a reason why the 30-30, 270 and 30-06 are so popular for deer.
Personally, I do not hunt deer with anything less than 270 winchester. My remington model 700 only cost around $750. There is no way I am going to spend $2k on a rifle.
I would not say value is "very" subjective, but it can be somewhat subjective.
Just because someone says a quarter is worth $1, does not magically make the quarter worth $1. And not any rare or silver quarter. Your standard everyday run of the mill quarter is worth 25 cents. Just because someone tries to sell it for a $1 does not make it worth $1.
Just because some gun company says their rifles are worth over $2k does not make it so.
It might be a high quality AR, but how much higher quality can it be than something like a colt 6920, DD and BCM? If I have to spend $2k to buy a good quality AR, then the 6920 must be junk.
The honest truth is the 6920 is the gold standard to the AR market. If the 6920 is the gold standard, then why does something else cost twice as much?
Either those $2k ARs are overpriced, or the 6920 and DDM4 are junk.
1. Some states prohibit hunting deer with anything smaller than a 6mm/243.
2. There is a reason why the 30-30, 270 and 30-06 are so popular for deer.
Personally, I do not hunt deer with anything less than 270 winchester. My remington model 700 only cost around $750. There is no way I am going to spend $2k on a rifle.
Worth and value are indeed subjective. For example, an mp5-SD....compare nominal market value in the US with production cost.
Very good point on deer and minimum caliber.
What it boils down to is this...
...some people will pay $500 for another 0.5moa tighter group. Some people are "brand whores" (again...HK as an example).
Then there are "little features" such as the polished bcg rails on a noveske bcg. Such as the other proprietary things they do. Some people pay for them. They cost money in man hours and material to perform. Then there is economy of scale. If noveske makes 5,000 rifles, they nees to see a lot more profit than Daniel Defense does, per rifle, to remain solvent.
There is a lot that goes into the product for the price, and while I am not a fan of noveske, I also don't think they are making $1500 per rifle in profit. They don't disclose every tweak they perform, and those tweaks may or may not build personal value to the buyer, but they do have more time and resources in the gun, and are smaller than colt or DD, and these facts add up to money.
KalashniKEV
11-05-13, 14:24
Either those $2k ARs are overpriced, or the 6920 and DDM4 are junk.
This statement is illogical.
For the sake of comparison:
A 16" CL Colt LE6920 with plastic handguards and furniture, USGI FCG, Std. CH, and a carbine length gas system costs $1150 with 1 x PMag.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=374304573
A 16" SS PT Noveske Rogue Hunter with NSR rail and Vltor/TD furniture, ALG Combat Trigger (ACT), gunfighter CH, and a mid length gas system costs $1950 with 3 x PMags.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=374753521
Is the Noveske worth $800 more?
YES.
There is no way an AR15 is worth over $2,000.
That is your opinion, but a whole lot of people disagree.
(How do you feel about 1911 prices, BTW? ;) )
This thread should be taken down, it's turned into a pissing contest for real.
WickedWillis
11-05-13, 14:31
This thread should be taken down, it's turned into a pissing contest for real.
I completely agree. It's not bringing anything new to the table, just people getting butt-hurt.
(How do you feel about 1911 prices, BTW? ;) )
A 1911 is a whole different world, nothing is "hand fitted" on an AR, nothing is hand anything other than the basic assembly which takes less than an hour.
1911 smiths study under other master smiths for years. Any one with basic mechanical competence can properly assemble an AR.
And you can get a top tier 1911 for 2k
I completely agree. It's not bringing anything new to the table, just people getting butt-hurt.
I just don't understand why people cant mind their own business for real. If the price point is too high, either drop more cash, or save a little longer, or don't. Simple as that.
I have a feeling these Gen 3's will be flying off the shelves so fast it will make their heads spin.
And seriously M4C, I thought we were better than the other site. If you read their threads about the Gen 3 stuff it's not full of a bunch of bickering like this. Lets get back on track. This is one sexy rifle
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0259/2561/products/STCK2209-1_1024x1024.jpg?1620
KalashniKEV
11-05-13, 14:56
A 1911 is a whole different world...
Awww... jeez.
I was really hoping no one would get side tracked with that, I was just offering another example for comparison.
I wouldn't go that far. They will sell, but the market is actually pretty saturated and there are distributors that have kicked back orders for stuff.
I just don't understand why people cant mind their own business for real. If the price point is too high, either drop more cash, or save a little longer, or don't. Simple as that.
I have a feeling these Gen 3's will be flying off the shelves so fast it will make their heads spin.
And seriously M4C, I thought we were better than the other site. If you read their threads about the Gen 3 stuff it's not full of a bunch of bickering like this. Lets get back on track. This is one sexy rifle
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0259/2561/products/STCK2209-1_1024x1024.jpg?1620
This info thread about the new Noveske lineup has been derailed and repeatedly crashed into a wall.
The price complaining is kind of a moot point. Noveske products are not for the penny pinching, ketchup packet stealing, thrifty bunch. I don't buy them because they are cheap. I buy Colt rifles for that, I buy Noveske products for the same reason folks buy anything, I want Noveske rifles and see the benefits in owning them vs the price and available current competition.
You don't like Noveske then look at one of these fine rifles instead. I think you will find their price point is in the same bracket.
http://m.laruetactical.com/obr-556?sort=popular
http://www.knightarmco.com/sr-15e3-iws-carbine-mod1/?cate_cm=commercial&term=sr-15&features=sr15e3-iws-carbine-mod1
Its not that I do not like the price, its that I can not afford the rifle at that price.
If I am going to spend more than $1,200 on a rifle, it sure aint gonna be for an AR15. My DS Arms FN/FAL was only $1,300, and I can take that deer with that rifle all day long.
There is no way an AR15 is worth over $2,000.
Did anyone question the BCM jack selling for $2150?
Did anyone question the BCM jack selling for $2150?
some one in the BCM jack thread did a break down on price, it adds up, same can't be said for the Noveske rifles.
Stand by for breakdown. I will edit.
Suppliers for rifle are: BCM, Geissele, HS, G&R
Upper:
Geissele SMR (Price based on 13") $345
BCM 14.5" Standard Barrel mid $229
BCM Comp Mod 1 $95
BCM gas block $45
BCM upper receiver $100
BCM BCG $160
BCM CH $45
Troy sights $218
Inforce w/mount $149
= $1386
Lower:
BCM lower w/ ALG ACT $425
BCM B5 stock $58
= $483
Grand total: $1869
Remember, shipping is not included for anything. Optional assembly fee is not included. Transfer fee not included. Cerakote, roughly $200 is not included. People always say "I can build it cheaper.." But you get the picture. I'm talking about part for part build.
Sure if its too much for you don't buy it. What people here can't wrap their minds around isn't the price, its the value. Its just not there, or at least no one has yet broken it down and shown where the value is.
There very well could be an AR out there worth every penny of 2800$, these guns are not it. They may sell for that much, but once the panic buying bubble bursts I have a hard time seeing them sell for that.
A great example of the lack of value in Noveske products, a few years back I wanted an SPR upper. A noveske SPR upper in a 12" Vltor VIS was around 1800$ I believe. I bought one from PKfirearms, with a Vltor VIS, Vltor LP gas black pinned, Noveske 18" SPR barrel AND a Young NM BCG (Noveske uses a standard mil spec BCG), and Vortex FH all for 1349$. Two de=ifferences, the Noveske upper said Noveske on it, not Vltor and PKfirearms assembled it, not Noveske.
If the price point is too high, either drop more cash, or save a little longer, or don't. Simple as that.
Amen.
I saved a year to buy my Noveske 14.5 NSR based on fantastic recommendations from this site. Never heard or read this much negative on Noveske until this thread. Accurate and light from the best was what I wanted and I'm sure I got it. Gen III looks great, probably start saving over the holidays for another one.
Noah
Amen.
I saved a year to buy my Noveske 14.5 NSR based on fantastic recommendations from this site. Never heard or read this much negative on Noveske until this thread. Accurate and light from the best was what I wanted and I'm sure I got it. Gen III looks great, probably start saving over the holidays for another one.
Noah
I was thinking the same thing, especially considering (as far as I can tell) everything is based on pre-production product data and no one here has put round one through a gen3 yet.
some one in the BCM jack thread did a break down on price, it adds up, same can't be said for the Noveske rifles.
Sure if its too much for you don't buy it. What people here can't wrap their minds around isn't the price, its the value. Its just not there, or at least no one has yet broken it down and shown where the value is.
There very well could be an AR out there worth every penny of 2800$, these guns are not it. They may sell for that much, but once the panic buying bubble bursts I have a hard time seeing them sell for that.
A great example of the lack of value in Noveske products, a few years back I wanted an SPR upper. A noveske SPR upper in a 12" Vltor VIS was around 1800$ I believe. I bought one from PKfirearms, with a Vltor VIS, Vltor LP gas black pinned, Noveske 18" SPR barrel AND a Young NM BCG (Noveske uses a standard mil spec BCG), and Vortex FH all for 1349$. Two de=ifferences, the Noveske upper said Noveske on it, not Vltor and PKfirearms assembled it, not Noveske.
Breaking down a rifle into parts sold by the same vendor is an interesting comparison, one I've done before too. The problem is that you assume the parts individually are also priced according to their value.
Noveske CHF barrels, for example, are $400-450. You get a pinned GB or FSB with that, so say they're $350-400. A Centurion CHF barrel is almost identical besides barrel profile and they generally don't come with a GB, but you pay a lot less.
However, that being said, I think the street price at places like DSGarms, Rainier Arms, RogTac, and G&R will be lower than Noveske's MSRP. Last year and this year we saw them moving out of the direct rifle sale business and pushed most of their firearm sales to their distributors and dealers, but they did keep selling accessories. S&W does that too, you can often cut 20%+ from their listed MSRP if you know where to look (G&R and Quantico Tactical come to mind). Trijicon is almost infamous for that too, I mean who has ever paid anything close to MSRP for a Trijicon optic?
And that being said, Noveske is a small shop selling boutique ARs. I'll be the first to admit that I have had trouble with their gen1 (out of spec trigger guard roll pin area) and gen2 (when monopodding with pmags, sometimes they didn't lock back on last round) lowers. And I don't like the SWS rail. But they make a great overall product. Noveske and KAC both make excellent rifles that are worth the price of admission.
Amen.
I saved a year to buy my Noveske 14.5 NSR based on fantastic recommendations from this site. Never heard or read this much negative on Noveske until this thread. Accurate and light from the best was what I wanted and I'm sure I got it. Gen III looks great, probably start saving over the holidays for another one.
Noah
I agree. I've been using Noveske rifles/barrels/uppers for years and plan to keep on buying them. They probably aren't the best "value" in the AR world but I've never had a problem with one and their barrels last forever.
Having said that, I also agree with what Iraqgunz says above about the market being saturated. It's certainly a buyer's market now more than I ever remember as far as quality choices. You now have Colt, DD, BCM, Novekse, KAC, Rainier and a few others that are all proven choices. I'm not brand loyal to anyone. I tend to stick with things that work and that includes all of the ones I listed for me.
gesundheit
11-06-13, 10:09
What people here can't wrap their minds around isn't the price, its the value.
I am sorry but the post you quoted is doing just that for BCM Jack - listing out the price for each part. Do you really think that a BCM lower (with ACT) with a price of $425 provides more than twice the value of a $200 Palmetto State lower (with ACT)?
The prices are what the target customers are willing to pay. You consider a $425 lower to be fair value for BCM even though the same functionality can be provided for much much cheaper. Others consider the same for Noveske. At the end of the day, your thinking is not much different from theirs :smile:
P.S. I will wait until they release that upper to go with my NSR handguards.
Did anyone question the BCM jack selling for $2150?
Dont know, dont care.
If I spend $2k on a rifle, it sure aint gonna be for a poodle shooting 223/5.56mm.
These boutique ARs are like buying a designer purse, or pair of shoes. Then bragging about how much you can afford to spend.
My DS Arms SA-58, fn/fal cost $1,300. To me, that price is the cut off point for a plane Jane AR-15. The next time I spend more than $1,300 on a rifle it is going to be an M1A Springfield.
My next Ar is either going to be a BCM or colt 6920, then add the mods I want. If the price after mods is over $1,200 or $1,300, oh well. I am talking base price or a plane Jane AR, I will not spend over a certain amount.
Dont know, dont care.
If I spend $2k on a rifle, it sure aint gonna be for a poodle shooting 223/5.56mm.
These boutique ARs are like buying a designer purse, or pair of shoes. Then bragging about how much you can afford to spend.
My DS Arms SA-58, fn/fal cost $1,300. To me, that price is the cut off point for a plane Jane AR-15. The next time I spend more than $1,300 on a rifle it is going to be an M1A Springfield.
My next Ar is either going to be a BCM or colt 6920, then add the mods I want. If the price after mods is over $1,200 or $1,300, oh well. I am talking base price or a plane Jane AR, I will not spend over a certain amount.
14.5" barreled Colt and FN "plain Jane" carbines have put quite a few of Terry Taliban's friends in the dirt, and done so very well, no doubt!
That said, some people are happy to buy the Noveske, even though the Honda Civic will get them from point A to point B very well, the BMW 3-series offers them a more personally desirable means of conveyance.
I wonder if the rifle I ordered last year will eventually show up as a GENII or a GENIII....
WickedWillis
11-07-13, 11:07
I wonder if the rifle I ordered last year will eventually show up as a GENII or a GENIII....
By the time you get it they may have the new site up showing off the GenIV's....
14.5" barreled Colt and FN "plain Jane" carbines have put quite a few of Terry Taliban's friends in the dirt, and done so very well, no doubt!
That said, some people are happy to buy the Noveske, even though the Honda Civic will get them from point A to point B very well, the BMW 3-series offers them a more personally desirable means of conveyance.
I fully agree, it boils down to what someone wants, and what they can afford.
For example, I would love to have a bmw, I just can not afford one.
One thing is for sure, if someone handed me an ar15 that cost $2k, I would not turn it down.
The Noveske rifles look awesome, and I would like to have one. I just can not justify spending that kind of money when a colt, DD and BCM will give me the same reliability and at a lower cost.
I wonder if the rifle I ordered last year will eventually show up as a GENII or a GENIII....
You've made mention of this a few times now. I assume you've contacted Noveske customer service and haven't gotten the response you want?
You've made mention of this a few times now. I assume you've contacted Noveske customer service and haven't gotten the response you want?
Yes, I've asked Megan a few times. They have asked me to contact them thru my Dealer and have so far declined to give me any specifics directly. My Dealers' answer: They are behind, and we'll see it when we see it...
I'm biting my tongue to not be a pest., but it will be a year next month. THEN I get to wait another year for the NFA...
Which is why I'm now sourcing parts to build 2 Noveske GEN2 lowers into pistols...
I like my Noveske uppers and lowers, but if you want value a KAC seems to workout much better, especially if you can get the mil discount. The thing Noveske has, is the wide range of different configurations.
morbidbattlecry
11-10-13, 12:26
I think they are trying to do the best they can given the difficult and fast paced industry they are in. I read somewhere( thefirearmblog,soldiersystems?) that they lost one of their lead designers recently(left to start his own company). I would really like to see someone else step in and take over the running of the company. unfortunately it seams like without John the company doesn't know what to do with itself.
Also i reference to a earlier post about noveske nip slip videos, i looked and i couldn't find any. So a little dissapointed about that also.
I think they are trying to do the best they can given the difficult and fast paced industry they are in. I read somewhere( thefirearmblog,soldiersystems?) that they lost one of their lead designers recently(left to start his own company). I would really like to see someone else step in and take over the running of the company. unfortunately it seams like without John the company doesn't know what to do with itself.
Also i reference to a earlier post about noveske nip slip videos, i looked and i couldn't find any. So a little dissapointed about that also.
What about these gen 3 rifles make you think Noveske no longer knows what to do with itself? All they did was drop vltor from using their uppers and stocks, and made their own stuff in billet. They are being less reliant on other industry partners. That seems like a step in the right direction, not " they no longer know what to do with itself"
Not sure where some of you guys are coming up with this stuff
Why is there so much BS in this thread? You either like the product, or you do not.
Buy it, or do not buy it.
I love me some Noveske. My latest build has a lot of Noveske (lower, NSR, keymod stuff, backplate) and I bought a complete N4 from them years ago. But even as a fan of their company, I do wonder where the company will go without their leader/founder/innovator. Didn't John think up all of the signature Noveske stuff (flaming pig brake, switch block, nsr)? Wasn't he truly the brains behind this operation? I'll reiterate and I'm a huge fan who also respects the company. I'll be curiously watching where they go.
morbidbattlecry
11-10-13, 14:58
What about these gen 3 rifles make you think Noveske no longer knows what to do with itself? All they did was drop vltor from using their uppers and stocks, and made their own stuff in billet. They are being less reliant on other industry partners. That seems like a step in the right direction, not " they no longer know what to do with itself"
Not sure where some of you guys are coming up with this stuff
I was talking in a broader sense.
KG_mauserman
11-10-13, 19:06
I love me some Noveske. My latest build has a lot of Noveske (lower, NSR, keymod stuff, backplate) and I bought a complete N4 from them years ago. But even as a fan of their company, I do wonder where the company will go without their leader/founder/innovator. Didn't John think up all of the signature Noveske stuff (flaming pig brake, switch block, nsr)? Wasn't he truly the brains behind this operation? I'll reiterate and I'm a huge fan who also respects the company. I'll be curiously watching where they go.
John did a lot of great stuff for the company but it wasn't a one man show. There were several other guys who had input into the company. Sadly some were let go a couple months after John died. The guy who came up with what became the switch block was not John but one of the guys who was let go. I'm curious where they will be going too.
Love the way the nsr and upper have the same lines.
Boba Fett v2
11-19-13, 19:37
John did a lot of great stuff for the company but it wasn't a one man show. There were several other guys who had input into the company. Sadly some were let go a couple months after John died. The guy who came up with what became the switch block was not John but one of the guys who was let go. I'm curious where they will be going too.
Sounds like some internal turmoil was going on. Maybe conflicting visions on how the company should continue forward.
Sent from my piece of s**t phone using Tapatalk2 (which can be equally unreliable when coupled with a junk phone)
Why is there so much BS in this thread? You either like the product, or you do not.
Buy it, or do not buy it.
Exactly. It seems like a bunch of men acting like fussy toddlers in need of a diaper change. If they can't swing the cash for a Noveske get a DD BCM or something. Plenty of competition.
It seems to me there is an interesting coincidence between the long wait times for orders, and the switch from Gen II to III with the company doing more in-house production....hmmmm. Don't want to come off as overly snarky here, but I feel like when you order something like this, especially in the height of hysteria, that it's just expected. Don't get me wrong, I feel for you guys that have waited for something you paid for, but the way I see it, it does kind of fit with the investment nature of a 2K+ weapon. (I've been waiting on the ATF for almost nine months now for my own and it kills me).
I think that's something that a lot of people miss with the high end stuff. Its not just worth the sum of the parts, its worth what someone will pay for it. Resale is a big deal. If you don't think so, then shell out for ammo and training. I have some Noveske stuff, and I like all of it. That being said, I've never bought a complete build from them. Can't say that I would at the price points we're seeing now. However, that's because I don't want to commit that kind of cash in one chunk when I don't have to, NOT because I have some arbitrary upper limit on what I will accept what something is worth. Like has been said before, the market will determine the price. The market has spoken. I await some performance reviews and hopefully news and pics from SHOT.......
SeriousStudent
11-20-13, 20:47
If you like one, buy one. If you do not, then don't.
Awful lot of speculation in this thread, about things that people have no knowledge of. I never had the privilege of meeting Mr. Noveske, but I have a great deal of respect for what he did accomplish in his life.
And that respect is why this thread is closing now. If you think of a good reason for it to re-open, shoot me or a mod/staff member a PM.
I think they are trying to do the best they can given the difficult and fast paced industry they are in. I read somewhere( thefirearmblog,soldiersystems?) that they lost one of their lead designers recently(left to start his own company). I would really like to see someone else step in and take over the running of the company. unfortunately it seams like without John the company doesn't know what to do with itself.
Also i reference to a earlier post about noveske nip slip videos, i looked and i couldn't find any. So a little dissapointed about that also.
Someone has stepped in and taken over as President of the company. He has years of manufacturing experience and having personally met with him several times in the last 5 months I feel confident he is taking things in the right direction. His "other company" does quite a bit of work with the Mil and others all over the world. ECS Case is no joke.
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