Current spec info on lower tier carbines

[Straight Shooter]

Gents, Ive just received a last minute request by a close friends spouse for help tomorrow in putting a AR on lay away for Christmas.
I am going into work early tonight...I have no further time to look for this info...but where can I find a current spec sheet for the Bushmaster, S&W and other carbines, generally considered lower tier, lower cost weapons? Ill need to explain to her why I DONT want her to buy one of these, and why. Im literally about "out the door", so maybe when I come in in the morning I can quickly check out some of this info. A very quick search here yielded only old info.
Thanks for any help.

[Caduceus]

Gents, Ive just received a last minute request by a close friends spouse for help tomorrow in putting a AR on lay away for Christmas.
I am going into work early tonight...I have no further time to look for this info...but where can I find a current spec sheet for the Bushmaster, S&W and other carbines, generally considered lower tier, lower cost weapons? Ill need to explain to her why I DONT want her to buy one of these, and why. Im literally about "out the door", so maybe when I come in in the morning I can quickly check out some of this info. A very quick search here yielded only old info.
Thanks for any help.

As I understand it, most of "regular" lowers are made by only a few companies.

That being said, with S&W I read that CMT makes them, versus made in house, versus being subcontraced to specs. Whatever it is, I've had about 5 uppers (BCM x 2, PSA, CMMG .22lr and the S&W) on it without problems; no problems w/ mags (GI, Pmag, Lancer AWM, Bulgarian, Surefire 60rds) locking into place, standard USGI style trigger.

Can't tell you about the rest of them. But I'd like to think that, of the lower tier companies, S&W is probably among the top.

For specs, did you check the respective websites?
for example, S&W M&P Sport:
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_786006_-1_787653_757785_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

Edit: Iraqgunz is right - I was reading that as "lowers," not entire rifle. Seems your question was about the entire rifle. My apologies.

[Iraqgunz]

Are you talking about a complete rifle or lower?

[badness]

Are you talking about a complete rifle or lower?

I'm pretty sure the OP was asking about the entire rifle. Not just lowers. The other guy probably misread the question since the OP mentioned "lower" so many times. :lol:

[Iraqgunz]

Straight Shooter,

You have been around a bit. So I'll just say this. Some people will not listen to anything you say. I suspect that she is a novice and has heard crap from friends, salesmen and everyone under the sun.

If you want to take all BS out of the equation, recommend a Colt or BCM. The price difference is really negligible at the end of the day and there is no doubt that they will work. They have a proven track record.

At the end of the day if she doesn't listen let her make the choice and then tell her I told you so later.

[badness]

the way i would explain it to her is:

Lower tier ar manufacturers have lower prices because they cut corners. Plain and simple

Whether it being poor customer service, lower quality control methods (mpi) or procedures (letting rifles out the door with poor fitment, no staking, out of spec parts etc) Or they use lower quality parts (4140 steel, no chrome lining etc). Generally they're cutting some kind of corner to offer an ar at a lower cost because their primary concern is to sell as many rifles to make the largest amount of profit. (Take bushmaster for example)

Then you can explain how companies like BCM are fairly new to the ar world (compared to companies like bushmaster) and yet have built an exemplary reputation amongst the shooting community for their fair price and attention to detail, quality control and customer service.

And then there's colt. You should already know why they're the gold standard :lol:

[Straight Shooter]

Hello Gents-
Just now, at 0430...getting in from work. I was in a terrible rush when I posed my original question..and Im sorry for not being clear.
Iraqgunz...you are entirely correct, sir. This is the reason I asked the question, because I know what they can & cant afford right now.
So, what Im really wanting to know..as for the carbines that are considered lower tier, which one can be brought up to a decent standard, through staking, maybe another bolt, and minor things like that, as they can afford to do so, so that they can end up with a decent rifle. Im sure it wont see a large number of rounds per year.
And..Im literally the only one they come to for AR advice..which is very humbling...AND I TAKE IT DEAD SERIOUS. I want them to buy the BEST THEY CAN AFFORD. Im all up on Colts, LMT, BCM, a little on DD..but since I don't fool with the others, I don't know who is doing what anymore. Like, Carp158 bolts, proper barrel steel & twist (1/7)
and F marked fsb.
Again, I was in a rush out the door, and apologise for a poorly worded question.

[wahoo95]

Many of the known low tier brands have brought their rifles up to spec as it pertains to the chart, however there's more to a rifle than the chart. For example, the new Wyndham ( Formerly Bushmaster) and S&W MOE all hit the marks on the chart but they also fall into the same price point as a new Colt or BCM. Why not get top of the line if you're paying the same right? That's the logic I use with people. Now there are those who really wont shoot much or really do have budgetary issued and such and in those few cases I have recommended M&P Sports at the lower price point. I know several folks with them that have vetted them and they are good rifles and an excellent value....best value under $700 in my opinion. If you're spending more than $900 you may as well buy a Colt or BCM. More than $1200 opens you up to Daniel Defense.

[Berserkr556]

Take a look at Palmetto State Armory. I have a couple PSAs, a carbine and a mid-length, that I bought and after thousands of rounds haven't had any problems. The better PSAs have FN made barrels and BCG. Their shipping time is slow,it can be up to 15 Business days before they ship but I received mine earlier. I usually buy BCM but wanted to try the PSA because I heard good things about them. The PSA Patrol Rifle package gives you a carbine plus an Aimpoint but they're out of stock at this time but since the holidays are around the corner I imagine they'll be back in stock soon.

[Zane1844]

I honestly think some people will never notice difference between a BCM, Colt, and Bushmaster and DPMS. They might not care about the best, they just want a rifle for fun. If the price is similar, however, I would go with a Colt which is generally on par with the price of the lower tier AR's.

I think the S&W are the best and seem acceptable to me, though I did switch to a BCM upper when I had mine for a while.

[PA PATRIOT]

If I could only afford a lower tier AR then I would just re-stake the gas key and castle nut and later down the road when funds allowed swap out the Car buffer with a H-1 or H-2 and add a mil-spec bolt. For the mission most of these budget guns will see the quality of the less expensive AR's will easily handle the work load.

[henschman]

x2 for PSA. There is no reason to go with a DPMS, Bushmaster, or the like when you can get a PSA that will have all the mil spec features for not much if any more money. If you build one from parts from them you have to be a little bit careful... their BCGs and receiver extensions come in different grades, and you have to make sure and get the higher end ones if you are wanting all mil spec parts. Lots of their stuff has been out of stock for a long time, but they always have some kind of sale going on an upper, like this one: http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/psa-16-m4-premium-upper-with-bcg-charging-handle-and-psa-aluminum-rear-flip-up-sight.html. Check out the specs on that -- they are legit. I have built 3 PSA rifles, and they have all been great.

Of course that is just an upper... but as a first time AR owner, it would be good for her to put together her own lower! PSA has some smokin deals on lowers on their home page too. They have one that comes with a LPK for $89. Throw a stock kit in the basket and she will be all set. If she wanted it to be equal to Colt or BCM's specs, the only other thing she would need to add would be a H buffer. For a total cost of around $600, that is going to be really hard to beat.

[Packing a 45]

Henschman. I do not understand they know nothing about the AR and you are saying she should build her own lower. ???

[Straight Shooter]

Gents..thank you all who responded.
GOOD NEWS! Ive got her talked into, and putting a Colt6920 LE Magpul MOE on lay-away for Christmas, for her husband and
my friend. So...alls well, that ends well! Thaank you all. Also...went looking at AR's today for the hell of it.
My lgs is ****in nuts! Im looking for another place to do business. Price gouging bastards STILL, even though demand has died down.

[Suwannee Tim]

.......Whether it being poor customer service..........

Like taking months to fix a simple problem? Colt does that. Neither Smith and Wesson nor Bushmaster nor DPMS do that.

[Packing a 45]

It is mandatory you tell them you are going and why, but you may be back when you get the hankering to get screwed. Packing

[Boba Fett v2]

Instead of layaway, why not have advise her to put the money toward quality individual parts and you assemble it? Just a thought.

Sent from my piece of s**t phone using Tapatalk2 (which can be equally unreliable when coupled with a junk phone)

[GunnutAF]

I agree go with a PSA complete rifle - done! Or Colt 6920 both are good AR's and will be a nice gift.

[badness]

Like taking months to fix a simple problem? Colt does that. Neither Smith and Wesson nor Bushmaster nor DPMS do that.

go and buy dpms and bushmaster then.

I don't care :dirol:

[BillyJack2012]

Instead of layaway, why not have advise her to put the money toward quality individual parts and you assemble it? Just a thought.

Sent from my piece of s**t phone using Tapatalk2 (which can be equally unreliable when coupled with a junk phone)

Because it's a lady friend of the OP that is buying it for her husband as a Christmas gift if I read this right? Building is the answer to everyone's question.

[Hmac]

As I understand it, most of "regular" lowers are made by only a few companies-.

This oft-cited urban legend is often used as an excuse for buying some piece of crap lower, since lowers are therefore "all the same". It completely ignores the different levels of QA that different companies apply when they spec the lower (if they do) and then decide whether to throw the thing away, sell it as a "chainsaw", or sell it to a customer.

[Suwannee Tim]

go and buy dpms and bushmaster then.

I don't care :dirol:

I'm glad I have your acquiescence badness though I do think if you really don't care you have a strange way of expressing it. My method when I don't care is to keep my mouth shut. I might just buy another S&W. I have an S&W 5.45 X 39 mm which has 20,000 rounds through it. I am on my third barrel and have consumed two hammer springs and one firing pin, all of which S&W replaced in less than a week. 5.45 mm is very hard on components because it's corrosive nature induces stress corrosion cracking. I have had several magazine springs break. I have a Bushmaster 450 BM with almost 2500 rounds through it. The 450 BM cartridge kicks hard, harder than any 308 and I expected it to break long ago but it soldiers along. I am assured by my friends on the 450 BM forum that if it does break I can expect immediate service from BM. And I have a DPMS AR converted to 22 LR with over 25,000 rounds through it. DPMS replaced the hammer spring shipping the replacement next day air despite my protests that first class mail would be just fine. Contrast these experiences with Colt CS which is the stuff of legend with months long delays for minor problems and a complete lack of responsiveness and candor about the status of the returned rifle. :dirol:

[Spiffums]

Wally World has started lay-a-way for Christmas. Can she just get a Colt there?

[murphman]

[QUOTE=Spiffums;1791617]Wally World has started lay-a-way for Christmas. Can she just get a Colt there?[/QUOTE

Pending your location this might not be an option. I believe there is a single wal-mart in Houston that sells firearms and I have never seen an AR15 in it. OP may not have a mal-mart that sells firearms but if he does it would be one route to take. I can't say the vendors on this forum do lay-a-way but OP you might consider sending a PM to a few like Grant at G&R. Maybe they can work something out for your friend, it never hurts to ask.

[товарищ]

Well, I'm currently unemployed. I can only apply to so many jobs in one day. Maybe it's a sign from the Heavens for me to work on this list.

[badness]

I'm glad I have your acquiescence badness though I do think if you really don't care you have a strange way of expressing it. My method when I don't care is to keep my mouth shut. I might just buy another S&W. I have an S&W 5.45 X 39 mm which has 20,000 rounds through it. I am on my third barrel and have consumed two hammer springs and one firing pin, all of which S&W replaced in less than a week. 5.45 mm is very hard on components because it's corrosive nature induces stress corrosion cracking. I have had several magazine springs break. I have a Bushmaster 450 BM with almost 2500 rounds through it. The 450 BM cartridge kicks hard, harder than any 308 and I expected it to break long ago but it soldiers along. I am assured by my friends on the 450 BM forum that if it does break I can expect immediate service from BM. And I have a DPMS AR converted to 22 LR with over 25,000 rounds through it. DPMS replaced the hammer spring shipping the replacement next day air despite my protests that first class mail would be just fine. Contrast these experiences with Colt CS which is the stuff of legend with months long delays for minor problems and a complete lack of responsiveness and candor about the status of the returned rifle. :dirol:

lol i like how you express that if you didn't care about something you'd keep your mouth shut. Despite my "way of expressing it" apparently you didn't catch the message about how "i don't care" and decided to write an entire paragraph about your experiences. Struck a nerve did i?

I ordered 10 7.62x39 ar15 magazines from BM once. 2 months go by and i hear nothing, so i contact them about my order and they respond telling me my order was cancelled. I asked them why i wasn't notified about that and also why the order was cancelled. The CS rep ignored the question on why i wasn't notified and told me it was cancelled because i live in a state where 30 round mags are illegal. I told him only handgun magazines over 10 rounds are illegal. Before i could finish my sentence, he cuts me off and just flat out tells me "we're not sending them". The tone in his voice and the manner in which he spoke to me was as if i was some kind of 2nd class citizen.

So like i said. If you want to buy their crap, then go ahead. i don't care. rofl. :dirol:


Oh and the fact that you had to PM me to let me know you responded to that simple comment, i already know i struck a nerve hahah.

[Steve S.]

I'm glad I have your acquiescence badness though I do think if you really don't care you have a strange way of expressing it. My method when I don't care is to keep my mouth shut. I might just buy another S&W. I have an S&W 5.45 X 39 mm which has 20,000 rounds through it. I am on my third barrel and have consumed two hammer springs and one firing pin, all of which S&W replaced in less than a week. 5.45 mm is very hard on components because it's corrosive nature induces stress corrosion cracking. I have had several magazine springs break. I have a Bushmaster 450 BM with almost 2500 rounds through it. The 450 BM cartridge kicks hard, harder than any 308 and I expected it to break long ago but it soldiers along. I am assured by my friends on the 450 BM forum that if it does break I can expect immediate service from BM. And I have a DPMS AR converted to 22 LR with over 25,000 rounds through it. DPMS replaced the hammer spring shipping the replacement next day air despite my protests that first class mail would be just fine. Contrast these experiences with Colt CS which is the stuff of legend with months long delays for minor problems and a complete lack of responsiveness and candor about the status of the returned rifle. :dirol:

You're saying that S&W replaced two 5.45 barrels under the lifetime warranty, or that you bought two barrels to replace them?