Daniel Defense the best choice? [Archive]

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LT.Barrett

11-05-13, 20:09

I'm looking to buy a Daniel Defense V5 for 1,300 at a local shop (good deal or not?) Why that rifle? Because I've wanted a mid-length high quality AR for a while that is sub 1,500 price range to customize to my own preferences. (Currently have a Spikes ST-15 carbine length) Great rifle, just time for something new! However here is my dilemma, ultimately I would like to get suppressor for it. Is not having an adjustable gas block/ switch block THAT big of a deal? I'd like to hear what you guys have to say before I pull the trigger...literally :)

Thanks in advance for your help and knowledge!

,Barrett

P.S......I've been looking at the Reaper 33 from Arsenal Democracy. I think it's badass as hell, just can't justify spending 1776 when I could get the DD or a BCM and a nice trigger and probably be just as happy.

wideglide

11-05-13, 20:19

Definitely a fair price. The only deal which may be better is the deal G&R tactical has going with a free Aimpoint pro at 1639.

LT.Barrett

11-05-13, 20:21

lol too bad I already have a PRO.

Javelin

11-05-13, 20:27

I shoot suppressed and unsuppressed. The Noveske switchblock is pretty nice but not a requirement.

DD makes a good rifle you can't go wrong with it. If you are serious about a dedicated suppressed rifle I would look for an SBR and possibly a 300BLK and the new Saker 762 can combo. You can get one SBR lower and run any upper you want (5.56,300blk,etc) so that's why I mention the SBR as important. Running a silencer on a 16" barrel just makes it ridiculously long.

LT.Barrett

11-05-13, 20:30

Roger, Tango Mike. I will definitely look into that. When you say "you can get 1 SBR lower." Does that mean I can get a lower with a tax stamp and buy any SBR upper and not have to have another tax stamp? I was under the impression it was the SBR upper that is a NFA item, assuming the lower is only semi.

WS6

11-05-13, 20:34

Army Chief

11-05-13, 20:42

I was under the impression it was the SBR upper that is a NFA item, assuming the lower is only semi.

As the registered (serialized) component, the lower becomes the NFA item, and legal host to an upper that falls under NFA-length definitions.

That same lower with a standard (non-NFA) length upper would be unrestricted, of course, but you cannot place an SBR upper on a non-NFA lower.

The upper may make the weapon an SBR, but the lower is the component that must be registered. This has nothing to do with whether or not the lower has select-fire capability, and in fact, were that the case, we would be talking about a machinegun, and the barrel length would be irrelevant.

AC

WS6

11-05-13, 20:58

As the registered (serialized) component, the lower becomes the NFA item, and legal host to an upper that falls under NFA-length definitions.

That same lower with a standard (non-NFA) length upper would be unrestricted, of course, but you cannot place an SBR upper on a non-NFA lower.

The upper may make the weapon an SBR, but the lower is the component that must be registered. This has nothing to do with whether or not the lower has select-fire capability, and in fact, were that the case, we would be talking about a machinegun, and the barrel length would be irrelevant.

AC

Be careful, though, this does NOT MEAN it is okay to take this lower through a state that does not allow an SBR, even with the 16" upper in place and the 10.3" or whatever left home.

Penal Code 17170
As used in Sections 16530 and 16640, Sections 17720 to 17730, inclusive, Section 17740, Article 1 (commencing with Section 27500) of Chapter 4 of Division 6 of Title 4, and Article 1 (commencing with Section 33210) of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title 4, "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
(a) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(b) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(c) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(d) Any device that may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive.
(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

Penal Code 33210
Except as expressly provided in Sections 33215 to 33225, inclusive, and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, and solely in accordance with those provisions, no person may manufacture, import into this state, keep for sale, offer for sale, give, lend, or possess any short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun. Nothing else in any provision listed in Section 16580 shall be construed as authorizing the manufacture, importation into the state, keeping for sale, offering for sale, or giving, lending, or possession of any short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun.-CA State Law

Army Chief

11-05-13, 21:13

Be careful, though, this does NOT MEAN it is okay to take this lower through a state that does not allow an SBR, even with the 16" upper in place and the 10.3" or whatever left home.

In a legal sense, this may well be accurate; however, if the weapon is not in a SBR configuration, then it technically does not meet (nor is it in any way subject to) the requirements of NFA law. This invites the question of how authorities in a restricted state would even know that a lower were otherwise-registered. In the unlikely event that they did possess this knowledge for whatever reason, how would they be able to make a case once the feds determined that the weapon was actually not an SBR in that particular configuration, whether it was registered as such or not?

Plenty of room for interpretation here, I suppose, but SBR policies are actually a little easier to deal with than most. Configuration -- not the paperwork -- is the key.

AC

HuttoAg96

11-05-13, 21:28

In a legal sense, this may well be accurate; however, if the weapon is not in a SBR configuration, then it technically does not meet (nor is it in any way subject to) the requirements of NFA law. This invites the question of how authorities in a restricted state would even know that a lower were otherwise-registered. In the unlikely event that they did possess this knowledge for whatever reason, how would they be able to make a case once the feds determined that the weapon was actually not an SBR in that particular configuration, whether it was registered as such or not?

Plenty of room for interpretation here, I suppose, but SBR policies are actually a little easier to deal with than most. Configuration -- not the paperwork -- is the key.

AC

The name of my trust, city, and state, laser etched into the side of the lower might tip them off... You can't beat the ride. Definitely something I would have to at least think about.

WS6

11-05-13, 21:29

In a legal sense, this may well be accurate; however, if the weapon is not in a SBR configuration, then it technically does not meet (nor is it in any way subject to) the requirements of NFA law. This invites the question of how authorities in a restricted state would even know that a lower were otherwise-registered. In the unlikely event that they did possess this knowledge for whatever reason, how would they be able to make a case once the feds determined that the weapon was actually not an SBR in that particular configuration, whether it was registered as such or not?

Plenty of room for interpretation here, I suppose, but SBR policies are actually a little easier to deal with than most. Configuration -- not the paperwork -- is the key.

AC
It's been done. I remember the post on silencerforums. Officer thought a barrel looked short (it wasn't), ran the serial, came back as a registered sbr. Out came the cuffs. I don't recall the resolution. Just dont, imo.

Army Chief

11-05-13, 21:38

P.S......I've been looking at the Reaper 33 from Arsenal Democracy. I think it's badass as hell, just can't justify spending 1776 when I could get the DD or a BCM and a nice trigger and probably be just as happy.

I can not in good conscience advise pursuing this rifle at it's present state of development.

If you are unsure where to begin, buy a Colt. If you see something in the DD or BCM lineup that meets the need, these also represent solid, service-grade selections. The Rainer Arms RUC offers incredible value and quality, and the KAC SR-15 remains a benchmark rifle to consider here as well.

What I would not do, however, is to start getting all lathered-up over a boutique gun that has no quantifiable record of performance, and which hasn't even been fielded in sufficient quantities to have established a consistent standard of quality.

AC

Iraqgunz

11-05-13, 22:28

I'm not saying that the story isn't true, but it doesn't jive. When a serial number is checked, it's generally through NCIC to see if it stolen or otherwise connected to a crime.

In order to check the status of that lower, you will need to call a local BATFE field office or NFA branch. And most likely it would have to be done in normal hours i.e. 9-5.

The BATFE website clearly states that removing the short upper from the lower and replacing it with a 16" upper makes is a Title I weapon as long as you do not maintain possession of the short upper.

Is is possible that there is something in a state law that is so quirky that no one can make sense of it and he got charged? Maybe.

What you posted from California labyrinth of laws also makes no sense. Short uppers are legal in the form or AR pistols.

It's been done. I remember the post on silencerforums. Officer thought a barrel looked short (it wasn't), ran the serial, came back as a registered sbr. Out came the cuffs. I don't recall the resolution. Just dont, imo.

Iraqgunz

11-05-13, 22:33

Once again. This is straight from the BATF website.

Q: If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of ATF Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms?

If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the NFA. ATF recommends contacting law enforcement officials in the destination state to ensure compliance with state and local law.

The name of my trust, city, and state, laser etched into the side of the lower might tip them off... You can't beat the ride. Definitely something I would have to at least think about.

Iraqgunz

11-05-13, 23:01

LT. Barrett,

I have no idea what your background is, why you really want it or anything else. However, I wouldn't even consider a Reaper to be honest and especially at that price. Nothing about it stands out and if you plan on using your new AR for it's intended purpose I would want something proven.

Unless you really need or want another AR, I would consider getting another upper instead and putting it on your existing lower.

Right now it is a buyers' market. There are parts everywhere as well as complete AR's.

RWH24

11-05-13, 23:19

DSG has this going on right now..

http://dsgarms.com/search.aspx?keyword=ktddv&page=1

Javelin

11-05-13, 23:34

DSG has this going on right now..

http://dsgarms.com/search.aspx?keyword=ktddv&page=1

That's a great deal.

Javelin

11-06-13, 00:21

Darn it! They are located in Texas and that means sales tax for me :(

Wake27

11-06-13, 00:32

That's a great deal.

I don't know why they are including EMAGs with it though.

OP - this is all pretty much personal preference, since both are known to make great guns, but I prefer BCM over DD because you can get quite a few different options from their site (on uppers) and their stuff comes with many of the accessories from their Gunfighter line, which are superior to the standard items in my opinion. The only downside is that you can't just buy a complete rifle from them (as far as I know), but G&R and others carry their lowers. Items like the GF pistol grip, Magpul trigger guard, and charging handle should come standard I believe, along with the option for their comp which I recently discovered is pretty impressive.

3ACR_Scout

11-06-13, 07:49

I don't know why they are including EMAGs with it though.

As noted in "The Official Where Can I Get It?" (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=100661&page=486) thread, DSG is having an inventory reduction sale at the moment. Emags are listed as on sale for $15 (not sure if that's their normal sale price, but they list MSRP as $19.95), so they may be using this package as a means of moving them out.

Dave

steyrman13

11-06-13, 08:07

Be careful, though, this does NOT MEAN it is okay to take this lower through a state that does not allow an SBR, even with the 16" upper in place and the 10.3" or whatever left home.

-CA State Law

Under the quoted regulation e-
(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
Wouldn't that mean you would need the SBR upper for that to be a violation?

WS6

11-06-13, 10:20

Under the quoted regulation e-
(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
Wouldn't that mean you would need the SBR upper for that to be a violation?

Not according to the first half of the law. The SBR'ed lower is "any part" "designed and intended to convert..." and this is impossible to argue as it is registered expressly as such.

steyrman13

11-06-13, 10:35

Not according to the first half of the law. The SBR'ed lower is "any part" "designed and intended to convert..." and this is impossible to argue as it is registered expressly as such.

Any Part designed and intended, but the end of the phrase says it may be readily converted if those parts are in possession or control. That means if you left the upper at home you could not READILY convert it into an intended or designed.
Either way it can be misinterpreted by LE and is a fine line

Iraqgunz

11-06-13, 10:37

Let's not derail this further. Its in black and white for people to read and if necessary get a lawyer for interpretation.

Moonlight Again

11-07-13, 08:21

snip
The only downside is that you can't just buy a complete rifle from them (BCM) (as far as I know), but G&R and others carry their lowers. snip

G&R lists a variety of complete BCM rifles---mostly out of stock at present. When I got mine, I bought a separate upper and lower (both BCM) from Grant----and I'm damn happy I did, too.