View Full Version : Vickers Tactical/M4C Basic Pistol AAR
Nathan_Bell
05-05-08, 09:03
Just got home from a Vickers Tactical basic pistol class hosted by Grant at M4 Carbine and held at Greenport Tactical Assoc, near Canton, OH. This was the second class that I have taken from Larry Vickers at this location, the first was basic carbine last summer. If you you want to learn to use your guns as weapons, taking a class from LAV is the way to go. Just make sure you are willing to learn and be pushed out of your comfort zone.
Training day one. Trigger control and drills to work on it took us about 4 hours, these were dry firing and live firing drills. After lunch we worked on reloads and draws for about an hour, again dry fire and live fire drills. We then moved onto turns, static and moving. Which, thanks to pleasant weather, were less of a clusterF***k than they were last year's carbine and its 90/90 weather. We closed out the class and about 1/2 - 2/3 of us went out to eat at a nice local restaurant with Larry and our host Grant. Got home about 8pm after 55 minute drive.
TD 2 Rain, lots and lots of rain. Started off with a review of the trigger control and some dry fire and live fire techniques, this took about an hour. Did I mention it was raining and we were in low lying bay? Did some more work on drawing and reloads, than Ken Hackethorn made his appearance. That is one of the great bennies of this club is that it is only about a 2 hour drive for Hack to get to and he likes to train with LAV, so we got both of them on TD2 for both of the classes I have had at GTA. We started with Ken showing us some drills to work on trigger control with your muzzle moving all over hell and gone. Those are eye openers when you are waving your pistol around in a one inch circle and still keeping the hits in the black on an NRA target, if you do not mindf***k yourself and snatch the trigger.
After this we worked on shooting and moving forward, backwards and laterally. Incredibly important, but widely over looked skill needed for gunfighters. After we got the basics we did some barrel drills and corner drills. Good muddy fun.
Grabbed lunch and then had a bit of play time as Ken had a Galil, ARM I think was the model, short barreled select fire gun I had no 5.56 but several others did and that gun was amazingly controllable in F/A. We also got to look at a AR-15 piston gun that uses a FAL style gas set up, as it all comes out of the front, no need to break down the gun to pull the gas system out. Then we got a hell of a blast of rain and wind, almost took out shelters out, so we held them down and got to bs for about 1/2 hour as the storm blew over. Once that had blown through, we did more barrel work and had a team competition.
After this, we took a recess and went out to eat while we waited for it to get dark so we could do some low-light work. Great stories were told by Ken and Larry about training folks all over the world. Some of them were, lose your breath laughing funny, some were so depressing you wanted to beat someone’s ass. Good time. Leave and bid farewell to Ken, sun is out! Yes!.
We get back to the range about 8 ish and get kitted up and we get another blast of weather tearing though. Again we retreat under the sun/rain shelters and hold them in place and BS. I am very glad I was hiding under the shelter with the contractor, the deputy and the gunsmiths; and not the one with the PD captain who was regaling folk with tails of how much human garbage there is. Rain slows down and we go out and work on low light/no light.
Tritium night sights are a must, three dot tritiums are better than nothing, but they suck when compared to Straight 8's or Bar/dot/bar setups. Then worked on the flashbulb lighting/shooting technique. Crimson trace laser grips are the bomb, when you do not break them, which I did. We closed up shop about 10:30 and headed home.
TD3 Worked on trigger control drills. Then went to malf drills, these would have usually been on TD2, but since we had Ken there for shoot on the move they got jiggled back to td3, pistol is much easier and faster to get clearance drills than the AR was last year, or maybe it just seemed like that as we had nice weather again. We then worked on turns again and then went onto running evals and the like.
Larry's philosophy of training is that you must shoot accurately and be able to do so while moving at CQB distances. That is based in his time in SFOD and has been borne out over the past several years with the Unit running a huge amount of ops since 9/11. Why is accuracy prime? Larry's 50% rule of combat. You will only shoot half as well under combat stress as you can under training stress. So if you are shooting 4" groups during training and quals, you will be shooting 8" groups during actual combat. So your goal is to get as close to the weapons limitations as possible in your skill level, so that you are able to get good, solid hits on the targets. This gets you to having a 1.5" gun that you can shoot at 1.85" and when amped out in combat you can still be shooting sub 4" groups. This is why we did so many trigger control drills.
The other key? Practice, go out and f%$*#ing shoot the drills or you are withering on the vine. A great example of this was a DoS security contractor who took our class for shits and giggles. He had not had a chance to do alot of pistol shooting recently and his first several drills showed it. After a few rounds down range, all of the training he had kicked back in and he started hammering the bulls eye, (great shooting Stony!) but the lack of having practice time showed. Now those of us who are just barely proficient that fall off of skills will turn a bad hit into a clean miss. Larry and Ken will both tell you that they only got as good as they are by practicing and running rounds downrange in constructive drills.
Great class, great stories from two of the best CQB pistol instructors in the world, and I got Larry to sign my copy of "Six minutes to Freedom" :cool:
Jay Cunningham
05-05-08, 09:28
Great AAR! You are starting to "simma down!"
Nathan_Bell
05-05-08, 09:36
Great AAR! You are starting to "simma down!"
Nah, I was still accused of licking the window a few times, and I got the hammerhead once or twice. :eek:
Thanks, for sharing. Nice report.
Getting Ken's instructions on day 2 was worth your price of admission.
NCPatrolAR
05-05-08, 10:19
Getting Ken's instructions on day 2 was worth your price of admission.
Getting to train with Ken or Larry alone is worth the class price. Getting to train with both at the same time is phenominal. :)
John_Wayne777
05-05-08, 10:45
Getting to train with Ken or Larry alone is worth the class price. Getting to train with both at the same time is phenominal. :)
Yup....that's why I'm doing it twice this year. :D
JeffLester
05-05-08, 13:08
Great AAR! You are starting to "simma down!"
My day's been made. That image of Larry talkin' gangsta was too funny... and still very clear in my mind. Just as funny was the look on his face (at the Brady, TX class in Mar) when someone mentioned the HoMeBoY NyTe-SyTeS for Glocks. HAHAHAHA...
This is the second time we have had Vickers in for a M4C class. Just like the carbine class we did last year, this one went very well. The majority of the shooters were very good and I think everyone had a good time.
One of the great things about doing classes in Ohio is that there is a strong chance that Mr. Hackathorn will show up for a day. Other than the Vickers/Hackathorn low light classes, you will rarely (if ever) get them at the same class. Two of the worlds best instructors on the same range is a fantastic deal to say the least.
I have a bunch of pics from the class that I will get up shorlty.
C4
Great stuff - thanks Grant for hosting the class. Larry, if you read this, thanks again. The early model Glock production codes I told you about are in your e-mail.
Nice AAR Nathan, thanks. What happened to your Crimson Trace grips and what model of pistol are they for?
Nathan_Bell
05-05-08, 20:04
Nice AAR Nathan, thanks. What happened to your Crimson Trace grips and what model of pistol are they for?
LG-660 for the S&W M&P, called up Crimson trace this afternoon and got an RMA, very nice and polite folks to deal with.
From what I got from them the diode probably has a slight flaw in it making the dot an oval instead of a round dot. Still visible and shootable if not for zero shifting as well. The more I think about it I might have caused that myself as I grip up high on the pistol and was gripping, sometimes very hard, against the laser housing. Still have a slight sore spot on my hand.
Pistols are not made to fit my hands very well, and I end up holding them wierdly.
Great AAR! Too bad Mr Hackathorn wont be coming to the South Hill LAV pistol class in Sept. Sounds awesome.
Thanks for the report Nathan, and of course holding down the roof of the shelter while the storm blew threw.
Great class, made possible with Grants dedication as a facilitator, Larry's instructional expertise with the added bonus of a few new one liners exclusive to this class. It was nice to have alot of the same guys back from last years carbine class. Already looking forward to next class.
Carl target 13 :cool:
Nathan_Bell
05-06-08, 07:59
Thanks for the report Nathan, and of course holding down the roof of the shelter while the storm blew threw.
Great class, made possible with Grants dedication as a facilitator, Larry's instructional expertise with the added bonus of a few new one liners exclusive to this class. It was nice to have alot of the same guys back from last years carbine class. Already looking forward to next class.
Carl target 13 :cool:
Chad (aka Willy) has already used one of them on the guys that work for him in his shop :eek:
Nathan_Bell
05-06-08, 11:18
Couple pictures
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c353/Swobodo75/LAVII001.jpg
Steve the Damaged, Grant, Barry
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c353/Swobodo75/LAVII008.jpg
Some doofus with Ken Hackethorn
Jay Cunningham
05-06-08, 12:07
Chad (aka Willy) has already used one of them on the guys that work for him in his shop :eek:
Did it happen to have anything to do with a Glock and a porn actress?
Nathan_Bell
05-06-08, 12:13
Did it happen to have anything to do with a Glock and a porn actress?
Nope, it was underage filmed carnal knowledge.
Ok, I finally got off my butt. Here are some pics.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/May%202%20Vickers%20Pistol.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/May%202%20Vickers%20Pistol1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/May%202%20Vickers%20Pistol%20one%20hand.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/May%202%20Vickers%20Pistol%20one%20hand1.jpg
LAV showing off his new HK
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/May%202%20Vickers%20Pistol%20LAV.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/May%202%20Vickers%20Pistol%20Bob.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/May%202%20Vickers%20Pistol%20Bob1.jpg
Ken showing everyone how much they missed the target by
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/May%202%20Vickers%20Pistol%20Ken%20and%20LAV.jpg
Ken showing the class the best HG on the market!
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/May%202%20Vickers%20Pistol%20Ken%20barrels.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/May%202%20Vickers%20Pistol%20Ken.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/May%202%20Vickers%20Pistol%20Ken1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/May%202%20Vickers%20Pistol%20moving.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/May%202%20Vickers%20Pistol%20moving1.jpg
Barry shooting a FA Galil that Ken brought
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/May%202%20Vickers%20Pistol%20Barry.jpg
New Gas piston to be on the market shortly
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Gas%20piston%20system.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Gas%20piston%20system1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Gas%20piston%20BCG.jpg
John_Wayne777
05-06-08, 20:42
So it's officially been upgraded from "the pistol of the future" to the best handgun on the market, eh??
Cool. :D
Jay Cunningham
05-06-08, 21:42
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Gas%20piston%20system1.jpg
Hey now,
Where can a fella pick up one of those?
;)
welchtactical
05-06-08, 21:46
It looka like a barrett????
I see the front sight has the Troy markings underneath...similar to the LaRue and Noveske marked ones. Wonder if there is any correlation :confused:
I see the front sight has the Troy markings underneath...similar to the LaRue and Noveske marked ones. Wonder if there is any correlation :confused:
Hi Blake, no there is no tie in with Troy, they are just a parts supplier for the handguards which might change depending on the popular vote and the useability of some other handguard MFGs, the Troy handguard just happened to be there when handguards were needed and they were very easy to adapt to the system........................AD
It looka like a barrett????
Its not like the Barret, yes it does have a one piece gas piston with return spring like the FAL, but there are some diffrences between it and the barret, the Barret has a GAS plug simular to the FAL and POF. Thats where this new piston system is diffrent, its plug/gas cylinder encases the piston...........................AD
Nathan_Bell
05-07-08, 07:23
HAH, after seeing the pictures I can understand Ben asking me if I was running a compact S&W:p
The piston upper is engineered slick enough that my Masada/ACR money is in real danger of getting a chunk taken from it.
The piston upper is engineered slick enough that my Masada/ACR money is in real danger of getting a chunk taken from it.
Anyone know the availability date, length of order back log, price, brand, etc?:eek:
Robb Jensen
05-07-08, 07:48
Its not like the Barret, yes it does have a one piece gas piston with return spring like the FAL, but there are some diffrences between it and the barret, the Barret has a GAS plug simular to the FAL and POF. Thats where this new piston system is diffrent, its plug/gas cylinder encases the piston...........................AD
Very nice ADC. I would like to point out that this new piston system doesn't have set screws but a pinned gas block instead VERY wise choice!
Hey it shoots damn nice too! :D
To me it doesn't feel much like a piston gun.
Hey now,
Where can a fella pick up one of those?
;)
Hopefully we will be stocking them in the near future.
C4
It looka like a barrett????
Negative.
C4
Anyone know the availability date, length of order back log, price, brand, etc?:eek:
I do not think we have any firm info at this time, but maybe ADC can tell us more.
C4
Thanks for the reply Grant. Sounds interesting.
Good training, thanks Grant for bringing this to our area. (and for lunch).
Larry and Ken, thanks for taking the time and providing unparalelled training.
You made some local guys safer on the job, we appreciate it. The drills and techniques will be shared with other good guys.
To the other students in the class, nice work. Was a pleasure training with all of you.
This class was by far the best pistol instruction I've ever received. This class had a lot of capable shooters and it made things much more pleasant. The short busing was minimal. A huge thanks to LAV for doing this class and to Grant for making things happen. Also, thanks to Ken H. for paying us a visit and letting me shoot the Galil. That was pretty fun!
I learned a lot about shooting the pistol and some great drills that will definitely be incorporated into my range visits.
I shot my brand new M&P9 for this class. I've been shooting a Sig 226 for the past 4 years and really love that gun. I shot it well and got really comfortable with the DA/SA trigger pull. But that first DA shot was always in the front of my mind. With the M&P, that's all gone. Now I just can concentrate on the same smooth trigger pull for every shot. That is a huge plus and something I'm really excited about. The gun ran flawlessly all weekend for all 1,000 rds. I ran it the whole time with an X200b mounted.
For a holster I used the Phantom LC from Raven Concealment and one of their single mag pouches. This holster is amazing, very slim and quick to draw from. I've used Kydex holsters from Blade-tech and Ready Tactical and this Raven holster is just as quick to draw from but a much lower profile. The mag pouch was just the same. It was also great to meet the Raven guys on Sunday and see them in Kydex molding action.
No class would be complete for me if I didn't get injured. On Friday afternoon I got hit with a ricochet in the left forearm. It scared the shit out of me and hurt like hell, thought I had a bullet in me! Many thanks to Mean Gene for helping me out. My whole forearm is a funky bruise yellow now.
Here are a few photos. I wish I took more, but with the rain on Saturday and the great shooting, had a hard time stopping to pick up the camera.
Range:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/LAV%20Pistol%20May%202008/IMG_1116_web.jpg
Class Photo:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/LAV%20Pistol%20May%202008/ClassPhoto_5308.jpg
The Bourbon Boys:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/LAV%20Pistol%20May%202008/IMG_1117_web.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/LAV%20Pistol%20May%202008/IMG_1118_web.jpg
Larry Covering Reloads:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/LAV%20Pistol%20May%202008/IMG_1121_web.jpg
Tis Only A Flesh Wound:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/LAV%20Pistol%20May%202008/IMG_1180_web.jpg
Snapped this on Monday
A Little FA Fun:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/LAV%20Pistol%20May%202008/th_GalilVid_5308Web.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/LAV%20Pistol%20May%202008/?action=view¤t=GalilVid_5308Web.flv)
Some Of The Stuff Raven Concelment Cranked Out:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/LAV%20Pistol%20May%202008/IMG_1144_web.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/LAV%20Pistol%20May%202008/IMG_1149_web.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/LAV%20Pistol%20May%202008/IMG_1154_web.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/LAV%20Pistol%20May%202008/IMG_1169_web.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/LAV%20Pistol%20May%202008/IMG_1170_web.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/LAV%20Pistol%20May%202008/IMG_1176_web.jpg
Nathan_Bell
05-07-08, 20:24
That Smithie revolver of Joe's was nice, as was the Marlin. Hell, everything I have seen that Joe has done is nice. That rig from Raven looks very slick for the S&W.
The guys from Raven showing up was cool, if hard on my wallet (2 new rigs should be arriving shortly), they were great folks and make some nice kit.
Glad you are healing up Steve you took a good whack.
Steve, glad you're healing up. Thanks for posting the photos, there's some folks at work asking about Raven, that will help.
Mean Gene
I do not think we have any firm info at this time, but maybe ADC can tell us more.
C4
Thanks all who have shot my Piston Driven AR and thanks for your comments. I am working hard to get my ducks in a row to get these uppers to those folks who have expressed an interest.
First I would like to say I am a shooter with a passion for stuff that works and doing things right as best as I know how. I have been working with military styled rifles for 20 plus years, that's how I met Larry, 5-6 years ago I built Larry an FAL and we hit if off.
I had been looking at the AR gas piston scene for awhile, just didn't see anything I liked or any system with the features I wonted. A simple one piece gas piston with a piston return spring, two gas settings 223 and 5.56. We all know allot of the 223 marked ammo is weak compared to true Mil. spec.. 5.56, that's why most ARs are over gassed so they will work with the weakest commercial 223 to the 5.56 mil spec. I worked hard getting my gas settings right, I have shot almost every type of 223/5.56 in getting there, I think that's why most of the folks who have shot the system say it has a noticeable less recoil than the other piston ARs. I also have a 11.5 with 3 settings 223/5.56/suppressed, it will be out a little later.
Thanks again all who have given feed back on my project, I will be posting some more detailed info in the next couple days........................AD
PS, I welcome your questions and comments (good or bad) And thanks Grant for the pictures!
Very nice ADC. I would like to point out that this new piston system doesn't have set screws but a pinned gas block instead VERY wise choice!
Hey it shoots damn nice too! :D
To me it doesn't feel much like a piston gun.
Thanks gotm4
Yea it was a no brainer pining the gas block, it cuts out the problems set screwed and clamp on blocks can have.
I think it feels very close to a standard M4, one of my light weight DI ARs has a little more recoil than my piston gun!
Jay Cunningham
05-07-08, 21:54
I also have a 11.5 with 3 settings 223/5.56/suppressed, it will be out a little later.
Thanks again all who have given feed back on my project, I will be posting some more detailed info in the next couple days........................AD
I'm on your list!
:cool:
So it's officially been upgraded from "the pistol of the future" to the best handgun on the market, eh??
What is "the pistol of the future?"
What is "the pistol of the future?"
John_Wayne777, Katar, NCPatrolAR, myself and a few others were at the Hackathorn-Vickers Low Light I in Nov. of last year.
Ken drew his S&W M&P .45, held it up, and declared it "the pistol of the future."
:cool:
What is "the pistol of the future?"
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/full%20size%209mm%20CT%20grips%20X300.jpg
C4
Wayne Dobbs
05-08-08, 09:52
See Ed! You already are ahead of the game with that M&P .45 of yours.
I just wanted to comment on AD's gas piston upper. I had a chance to shoot a shorty version with and without a can. It is very simple and very slick. I expect very good things to come from this. The wait will be worth it.
I just wanted to comment on AD's gas piston upper. I had a chance to shoot a shorty version with and without a can. It is very simple and very slick. I expect very good things to come from this. The wait will be worth it.
When I shot it earlier this year with a Surefire can on it, I didn't notice any back blast, which I did using a HK 416 10.5"
I do not think we have any firm info at this time, but maybe ADC can tell us more.
C4
Looks like there are some similarities between this and the Alexander Arms I've seen on TOS......the 3 settings of 5.56/223/suppressed spoken of are very cool indeed. Any hint on MSRP?
Thanks
ADH
See Ed! You already are ahead of the game with that M&P .45 of yours.
Yes, Wayne. I'm so money and I didn't even know it.
I wonder if the Bowie trigger job makes it even more futuristic.
NCPatrolAR
05-08-08, 21:02
Ken has had Dave work on his MP45. I put some rounds through his (Ken's) last year at a class down here and didnt like Dave's trigger job as much as I do Dan Burwell's.
When I shot it earlier this year with a Surefire can on it, I didn't notice any back blast, which I did using a HK 416 10.5"
I would assume ammo had a lot to do with it.
I was shooting non Mil-Spec PMC 55 grain ammo. Although it is reliable that PMC ammo is damn dirty and apparently does not have the same flash retardants as Mil-Spec ammo. I've seen LAV's 10.5" HK416 shooting at night with IMI M855 and it had no more more noticeable flash than a 16" standard AR w/A2 birdcage FS.
Here is some specs on my new AR piston system, I will be posting some pictures in the next couple weeks
Has a one piece gas piston with a piston return spring, piston will be chrome plated
Gas cylinder has two gas settings 223/5.56, the 11.5 coming out a little later will be 3 settings 223/5.56/suppressed, gas cylinder will be chrome plated also.
The bolt carrier is one piece with piston strike lug machined into carrier, carrier also has ANTI tilt pads on rear of carrier to keep the carrier centered and running smooth between the upper and buffer tube, therefore keeping it from tilting and diggin into the buffer tube .
The bolt is manufactured by a government contractor, has the good spring and o-ring.
The system was designed for H2 buffer, good to go on full auto lowers, carrier is M16 cut.
The upper is also manufactured by a government contractor, on production uppers it will be M4 feed ramps.
At this time I am working with a barrel maker who has also been making barrels for government contractors,
the barrels will be 1/7 twist 5.56 nato chambers chrome bore, barrel steel 4150 mil spec. M4 feed ramps.
These uppers will be shot min. 20 rd before leaving me, using the different settings, the barrels will all be checked before being built into an upper, I spin every barrel in the lathe to make sure its good to go and of course check the chamber size and headspace.
The handguard I am currently using is the Troy, but I may be offering it in another handguard as well as the Troy.
I am also looking into doing a midlength in the near future after I get going.
Don't know if I left anything out, but I am all ears if you have any questions and comments............................Thanks..............................AD
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