View Full Version : Long term/hard use reviews of Black Hole Weaponry barrels?
DreadPirateMoyer
11-09-13, 13:56
Recently, I've been looking to assemble a precision AR, shooting for sub-MOA accuracy out to 500 yards (yes yes, I know; only to be done with match ammo, etc.). My main priority with this barrel would be longevity; i.e., how long can I keep it running sub-MOA. I was looking for 20" rifle-length nitride barrels from quality companies to solve this conundrum, but the closest I can get is an 18" Daniel Defense with a mid-length port.
My next pursuit, then, was to either get a BCM SS410 barrel since it's made of a harder material than most other SS barrels, or to shoot for something with a combination of 1:8 twist/polygonal rifling/3-groove rifling to really stretch out the barrel's usable life as best I could. Black Hole seems to be the only maker I could find with the latter specs.
I've read lots of reports on BHW barrels' accuracy, and they seem to be up to snuff in terms of my sub-MOA needs. However, I haven't seen any reports on how they handle long term use, hard use, and if they maintain their quality and accuracy at least as long as competitors like WOA/Lilja/Shilen/LW etc.
Does anyone have any insight or experience? I searched on here, and only found one BHW-dedicated thread that didn't really address this. I also saw Stickman was doing a review of BHW barrels at some point, but couldn't track it down. Stickman, could you help me out? :)
P.S.: what especially worries me is the price as compared to something like Lilja. Too often in this industry, a cheaper product is not "just as good" as the more expensive, known stuff (DPMS vs. BCM, Simmons vs. USO, etc.), so their prices scare me as well.
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Have you looked at BH's site? They have a forum with users' feedback. Its possible they lose the unfavorable reviews...
There have been some very favorable reviews of the Ranier Arms Select barrels, which are rumored to be made by BH. Main difference is Ranier Select is 5 groove polygon vs 3 groove polygon for BH. Sorry for being unable to give personal eval of BH barrel.
Long and hard usage has not been a problem so far. They took a BHW 556 barrel and ran 700 rounds of back to back full auto through it. Accuracy had degraded to two MOA at that point. I have been shooting them in F-Class at 500. My tube has 1000+ through it and is still shooting well under MOA even with me behind it.
Barrel steel is the same as Krieger and a couple of the other top guys. If you wonder about the accuracy of the current stuff take a look at their site and look over the new 6.8 variants out of the Savage barrels. Same tubes just different platforms. The poly rifling should last a great deal longer than Enfield rifling simply because there are no sharp land edges to wear off.
Ranier, ADDAX and several other well known builders use/sell their barrels. The most current ones are three groove poly rifled. If the barrel won't shoot or has issues down the road they will work to make it right. When I get some time I will post up some groups etc. that have been shot recently with the 556 and four variants of the 6.8 including a 6.5 that just did a sub 0.5 MOA group at 200 this morning. Also a pair of 556 that were in the 2's and 3's.
Greg
Suwannee Tim
11-10-13, 19:28
Barrels are like tires. They are consumables. They barrels and tires that have the longest life are not going to provide the best performance and the high performers are not going to last as long. Not a perfect analogy but decent I think. Either way, they are consumables. You burn one up, you replace it. You put the burned up barrel in your burned up barrel barrel. When your burned up barrel barrel is full you take a picture of it and make your avatar.
Barrels are like tires. They are consumables. They barrels and tires that have the longest life are not going to provide the best performance and the high performers are not going to last as long. Not a perfect analogy but decent I think. Either way, they are consumables. You burn one up, you replace it. You put the burned up barrel in your burned up barrel barrel. When your burned up barrel barrel is full you take a picture of it and make your avatar.
I guess I couldn't have said it any better. When you wear one out and compare it to the cost of the components that wore that puppy out the price tag is enough to give your heart a skipped beat. Barrels are truly cheap in the long run.
Greg
goatmurray
11-10-13, 20:06
When I was first building my AR, I got a BHW heavy profile 18" mid-length barrel.
Did BHWs break-in, shot 300 rounds through it or so, with intermittent cleanings. Shot 1" @50yards with irons, MOE handguards, with Independence 5.56.I thought I saw what looked like rust spots on the lands (long story, don't ask, I'm still convinced it was rust), and some other funky stuff going on with the lands.
Sent it back to BHW and their theory was that somebody put a 1-9 twist die(?) in a machine that was programed for 1-8 twist, the result being my barrel.
I wanted a barrel back ASAP because I wanted to do some shooting before fire season, but the heaviest 16" mid-length barrel they had on-hand was a .750 so that's what I got. (EDIT: they sent it to me free of charge and I was only without a barrel for 12 days or so)
Did the break-in, cleaning every 80 rounds or so since. I'm in the 400's now for round count, and with the same MOE handguards I shoot 2"@ 100 yards when I try. WITH that same 55grn independence 5.56 stuff. No idea what some decent ammo will do through this thing, but that seems damn good for ball ammo and a non-FF handguard.
I only clean the bore with cotton patches and BF CLP, and by the 10th patch, it's always been clean. I tried stripping copper for giggles, and none came out that I could see.
IDK if 400 rounds constitutes long-term for you, but the barrel just doesnt strip copper, has remained accurate for me, and cleans easily even after not cleaning for a while. All indications indicate that it should last for a while.
DreadPirateMoyer
11-10-13, 22:31
I understand barrels are consumables; I've already had to change 3 of them on my current guns. I appreciate the advice, but barrels being consumable doesn't affect what I need here: the longest lasting, 20", rifle-length precision barrel I can find. Any reports on how BHW barrels stack up over the long haul will help me with that.
Much appreciated to those who have proffered their experiences so far. :)
Goat, I've heard they hold very little copper as well. It's a huge bonus, especially depending on the barrel's sub-MOA lifespan. GL, do you have any barrels with 5,000 or so rounds through them? I'd love to see how they're performing at that point. My biggest fear is that they say they use the same steel and such as other companies (416R), and that they use Lilja blanks (at least that's what I've read; I might be putting words in BHW's mouth), but I just can't bring myself to buy one without confirming it for sure over the longterm. I'm sure DPMS says it uses the same stuff as BCM and DD, until their bolt breaks at 1,000 rounds. :-P
I'll be sure to check out their forums. Didn't know they had 'em. Thanks for the direction!
P.S.: I don't mean to compare BHW to DPMS offhand, by the way. Just trying to explain my fears with regards to working with an unknown variable.
Barrels are like tires. They are consumables. They barrels and tires that have the longest life are not going to provide the best performance and the high performers are not going to last as long. Not a perfect analogy but decent I think. Either way, they are consumables. You burn one up, you replace it. You put the burned up barrel in your burned up barrel barrel. When your burned up barrel barrel is full you take a picture of it and make your avatar.
I agree with the above- except the part where a good barrel doesn't last as long. It's not that an accurate barrel wears out quick, it's just the level of accuracy required by competition shooters is much much higher than what face shooters require. When a competition barrel drops from, say .25 MOA to .5 MOA and starts costing the shooter points & X rings, the barrel is pulled and replaced. But it's still a .5 MOA barrel and will still shot just as many rounds or maybe more than an average barrel before the bullets start keyholing. Competition barrels are not made of a softer steel than regular barrels. Competition barrels are made of the same or better steels than regular barrels. It's just competition shooters hold their barrels to a higher standard
Personally I don't have 5000 through mine. I have not heard directly of any bring shot out. As one of the above posters said different groups will pull a barrel faster than others. A 3 Gun shooter can take a bigger MOA than a reduce course HP shooter. I followed up on the barrel steel and it is Kreiger not Lilja on same samesteel.
Now lets clear up one thing. Black Hole DOESN'T use blanks from anyone ekse.... period. They drill, rifle, turn and chamber their own blanks. Barrel extensions are made for them by BAT who is one of the top precision BR suppliers in the world. All barrels are made up after the order. They can be ordered in what they have as standard profiles and on request others are available. Carl would rather sell barrels of quality to many shooters as opposed to making barrels for only a few at a higher per unit profit. Realistically Lilja Kreiger et.al. aren't paying any more for their steel. They established a higher price point years ago and stuck with it. Black Hole only recently had a price increase. The barrels aren't any better. The raw material cost just went up.
The biggest issue that BHW has had in the past was the diasrray when the GOVT moved them from WA. to OR. under eminent domain. You hear of one that doesn't shoot just as they all do. Guys buying and biilding guns that won't run.....we all know that 95% of that is the builder or his handloads. Like any barrel maker they have issues with rifle gas on an 18" tube that requres a bigger gas port at times just like the rest.
I will guarantee that they will run as long and as good as anyone on the market. The price is right and if doesn't stand up or meet your standards they will replace it or buy it back. I am looking at thirteen of their barrels as I type this. I test and evaluate their gear along with helping develop new offerings. I am shaking down three variants right now they are doing. They will release the 6.5X6.8. this week.
Ask away if you have concerns.
Greg
DreadPirateMoyer
11-11-13, 22:38
Awesome information. Thank you very much for the clarification.
I may just have to buy one and give a 5,000-round review since it seems they're lacking. On my precision barrels, I generally run them very lightly (10 shots every 5 minutes or so), so I'd think they'd at least be able to hold MOA up to that point if they're sub-MOA out of the box like most reports state.
richdkim77
11-12-13, 09:37
I ran a 1600 round test through a Rainier Arms Select barrel, which was made by BHW several years ago.
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2723-Rainier-Arms-Select-5.56MM-Barrel
The barrel now has over 3k on it as I gave the barrel to a buddy to continue to use. Still maintains
MOA accuracy for him.
For only going out to 500 yards, I'd grab a nitrided Bergara 16" carbine barrel and be done. They are gassed so well that they're like shooting a rifle, and they're sub MOA.
We've shot them out to 1000 yards... although it had and ACOG, and we were really just lobbing 77s at that point since that is well outside the reticle's ability.
Just a single data point...
I ordered a 16" 6.5 Grendel barrel from BHW early this year. They sent me an 18". I sent it back on their dime, they cut it to 16". I mounted my Surefire MB68AR and discovered the threads were fairly significantly off -- the reflex-type brake rubbed a bare spot on the barrel's finish. I sent the barrel back for a refund, which they cheerfully gave me, no questions asked.
2nd.amendment
11-12-13, 18:42
If this is really what you want . . .
I was looking for 20" rifle-length nitride barrels from quality companies to solve this conundrum, but the closest I can get is an 18" Daniel Defense with a mid-length port.
Have you considered Superior Barrels? They have 20" nitrided (they call it "hard blue") Douglas premium air-gauged blanks turned by Compass Lake Engineering.
http://www.shop.superiorbarrels.com/product.sc?productId=104&categoryId=12
eternal24k
11-13-13, 12:30
If this is really what you want . . .
Have you considered Superior Barrels? They have 20" nitrided (they call it "hard blue") Douglas premium air-gauged blanks turned by Compass Lake Engineering.
http://www.shop.superiorbarrels.com/product.sc?productId=104&categoryId=12
I had a Superior 18" Walther barrel, that thing was a tack driver. I hope to get one of their Douglas barrels some day
Just a single data point...
I ordered a 16" 6.5 Grendel barrel from BHW early this year. They sent me an 18". I sent it back on their dime, they cut it to 16". I mounted my Surefire MB68AR and discovered the threads were fairly significantly off -- the reflex-type brake rubbed a bare spot on the barrel's finish. I sent the barrel back for a refund, which they cheerfully gave me, no questions asked.
Not the first time I've heard this kind of stuff out of BHW. A couple rifle builders I've talked to weren't too happy when they inspected them with bore scopes as well.
Not the first time I've heard this kind of stuff out of BHW. A couple rifle builders I've talked to weren't too happy when they inspected them with bore scopes as well.
That is pretty interesting about the bore scope. The biggest complaint I hear about it when guys look at them think that the barrel is "shot out" but then they don't know they are looking at a poly set up that does not have standard lands and grooves.
Also surprisingly enough some of the groups being shot with them are not exactly the kind you would hide from your buddies. More like the kind you would want to carry in your wallet. Have you ever personally worked with or shot a Black Hole barrel? Way to much I heardd or I think in the world of shooting and cutom builds. Not a lot of " I know or I have experienced."
Greg
Like I said, essentially hearsay. But I wouldn't have even mentioned it if I thought they didn't know what they were doing.
Like I said, essentially hearsay. But I wouldn't have even mentioned it if I thought they didn't know what they were doing.
Have them contact me.
Greg
TacticalMark
11-13-13, 21:15
While I can't provide a long term/hard use review, I recently installed med profile 16" mid-length SS 1/8 on my wife's build and it is very accurate both with match and ball ammo. 1.6 MOA at 100 meters with M193 PMC and .9 MOA with reloads (55g) 5 shot groups. Only have 250rds through it and so far I am happy. I was waiting for Rainier to get the select series back in and finally gave up and ordered a BHW. For the price and CS I don't think you could go wrong.
Never_Enough
11-13-13, 22:29
I have been using BHW barrels for 4ish years now and have had nothing but good luck with them. Two(14.5 carbine/16 mid)have over 1k through them, do not get regular cleaning, and have remained as accurate as they were from day 1 if I do my part. YMMV
superstratjunky
01-06-14, 15:15
What did you end up going for, DPM?
Anyone have experience specifically with their .308 barrels?
I am considering one, but haven't found any feedback on them, let alone over the long-term.
Anyone have experience specifically with their .308 barrels?
I am considering one, but haven't found any feedback on them, let alone over the long-term.
I can not speak to for the 308 barrel but I can talk about a 300 win mag and 6.5 Grendel barrel.
The 300 win mag has just over 5000 rounds (208 grain at 2925 fps) it has lost about 2% of it accuracy over the years. with that said on a cool summer day with sub 10 mph wind it will still hit 10 out of 10 shots on a 8 inch steel plate at 1000 yards and leave some paint on the outer rim of the plate untouched.
all I do to clean it is run a barrel snake through it five times or so with hopps on it.
the 6.5 G has about 3000 rounds (140 grain at 2580) it will hit the same steel plate 10 out of 10 on a calm, cool day. I have not noticed any lost of accuracy from it yet. i.e. it will still out shoot my ability.
the 300 win is a 26 inch barrel and the 6.5 G is a 24 inch barrel both of them are full bull profiles.
one small note: both barrels came a little over sized for the receivers so hand fitting takes a little work but makes for a great barrel to receiver fit.
hope this helps.
Obscenejesster
02-18-14, 19:43
I just picked up a 16" Select for a RECCE build. I'm not finished the build so I don't know how accurate it is but it looks top notch. I love the profile for a SS barrel. I normally don't like how heavy they are but this one is pretty light for a SS barrel.
I just picked up a 16" Select for a RECCE build. I'm not finished the build so I don't know how accurate it is but it looks top notch. I love the profile for a SS barrel. I normally don't like how heavy they are but this one is pretty light for a SS barrel.
The Select barrel you picked up is from Ranier?
Mark
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