View Full Version : 223/5.56 ammo opinions needed
veteran-USMC
11-09-13, 16:54
Today I bought a Windham Weaponry AR-15. This rifle has a 1 in 9 twist in the barrel. The barrel is 16 inches in length.
I will be using the AR-15 as part of my home defense . My question is with a 1 in 9 barrel twist what brand & weight 223/5.56 ammo would you recommend using?
Here's a test review of the Windham Weaponry AR-15 rifle- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PVEitTfxm0
Any 55-75gr ammo will be fine. You will probably have better accuracy with 62gr or better with a 1-9 twist barrel but it probably won't matter much unless you are bench resting your shot groups. I had a 1-9 twist armalite a long while back that was pretty decent with m955 ball.
Lake City ammo or federal bulk pack is always good. Take the money saved and go take a carbine course.
For home defense loads in an AR I use light varmint bullets.. violently explosive on impact (with anything) which will help with (God forbid) a missed shot not passing through walls and other undesirable areas (adjacent bedrooms with poeple, the houses next door, etc.. ). A 40 to 55gr load like a vmax or similar is my choice for that purpose. Plenty enough to knock a perp down, likely kill him on the first shot and little risk of a passthrough.. ;)
Your twist rate will support most loads from 50 or so grains up to the 70 range.
HackerF15E
11-09-13, 18:20
Go buy a 1K round case of pretty much any .223 or 5.56 ammo (55 or 62 gr are in the sweet spot) and shoot the hell outta it for practice and fun! Break the rifle in a little and increase your experience and familiarity with it -- that will be more important for using it in an HD scenario than what kind of ammo you are using.
What ammo you should use for HD depends on a lot of different factors; what kind of a domicile is it (house or apartment?), what is it made of (brick, wood, drywall), how close to people around you live, are there other people living in the house, etc. If you are concerned about penetration through walls in the house, you are going to have to look at your specific circumstances and do some internet research, because there is not a one size fits all answer.
Furthermore, once you find a type of load/projectile that looks good on paper, you are going to have to buy some of it and shoot it through your rifle so you know if/how well it works.
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What chamber is the barrel stamped?
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veteran-USMC
11-10-13, 09:09
[QUOTE=ucrt;1791487].
What chamber is the barrel stamped?
.[I did not see any stamp on the barrel but the receiver is stamped 223/5.56 nato.
Windham weaponry manuel states: use only .223 Rem or 5.56 Nato ammo.
Every AR-15 barrel I have seen is usually stamped???
/QUOTE]
Steel head
11-10-13, 09:44
My Windham is stamped 5.56 on the barrel.
Mine likes XM193 and that's what's loaded in a few mags.
I've had good results with 52 to 69 grain bullets in hand loads and factory stuff.
veteran-USMC
11-10-13, 15:20
My Windham is stamped 5.56 on the barrel.
Mine likes XM193 and that's what's loaded in a few mags.
I've had good results with 52 to 69 grain bullets in hand loads and factory stuff.
the Federal XM193 leaves a nasty wound channel
the Federal XM193 leaves a nasty wound channel
Supporting data? What I've read says otherwise.
For home defense loads in an AR I use light varmint bullets.. violently explosive on impact (with anything) which will help with (God forbid) a missed shot not passing through walls and other undesirable areas (adjacent bedrooms with poeple, the houses next door, etc.. ). A 40 to 55gr load like a vmax or similar is my choice for that purpose. Plenty enough to knock a perp down, likely kill him on the first shot and little risk of a passthrough.. ;)
I think you may have been watching too many movies.
RogerinTPA
11-10-13, 18:57
Windams are Bushmasters guns twice removed. Most of management are former BM, as well as their AR tech. Same weapon, different name.
You could try some 77 gr ammo to see if it stabilizes. I love the 77 for Defense. If that wouldn't work, I'd look at a 62 gr bonded maybe.
civiliansheepdog
11-11-13, 11:10
I would seriously stay away from the lighter weights in the .223, but you have a 1/9 twist barrel. So I would consider this round. http://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php/shop/ammunition/100/18/controlled-chaos-ammunition/223-remington-controlled-chaos-ammunition-detail
Otherwise, 62 gr. or 64 gr. bonded SP, Barnes 70 gr. TSX, 75 gr. TAP, if they will stabilize in your rifle.
Yeah.... although light weight bullets will dump an attacker, no doubt... The heavies will likely run in that barrel.... and are a LOT better.
I used to think that the heavies were a silly fad.... or a way to try to get something out of the round that wasn't there... but a few years of experience on the 69 and 77 grain SMKs has made be a believer. They literally do EVERYTHING better than an M193 load for example.
I'll never buy M193 again. It does nothing I want, and it harsh on steel targets, etc.
veteran-USMC
11-11-13, 11:42
Yeah.... although light weight bullets will dump an attacker, no doubt... The heavies will likely run in that barrel.... and are a LOT better.
I used to think that the heavies were a silly fad.... or a way to try to get something out of the round that wasn't there... but a few years of experience on the 69 and 77 grain SMKs has made be a believer. They literally do EVERYTHING better than an M193 load for example.
I'll never buy M193 again. It does nothing I want, and it harsh on steel targets, etc.
While active in the Marines there were more con's than pro's regarding the M193 load. Thanks for the reminder.
It used to be my stash ammo. Over the last few panics, I've sold it all off and replaced it with 75-77 grains stuff... Switching to all heavies made POI/Zero issues less of a pain.
civiliansheepdog
11-11-13, 13:49
Another prime example of you get what you pay for! No round is too expensive when the grim reaper is at your door.
Failure2Stop
11-11-13, 16:01
MarkM is dead-on.
I use "ball" ammo for training only.
Don't get me wrong, there have been a whole lot of folks put in the dirt by M193, but if you are trying to get the best terminal performance there are way better options, and most of these options are in the "heavier" category. Varmint rounds are made for that; light skinned, small mass animals. Current "duty/defensive" rounds are made to meet minimum penetration requirements to physiologically shut down a lethal human threat while minimizing post-target lethality. Those are what I recommend for protecting life.
TX Rancher
11-12-13, 08:45
"I will be using the AR-15 as part of my home defense "
Without knowing your particular home environment, I'll assume primarily indoor or short range (<50 yards) outside. At those ranges I don't think things such as sub-MOA accuracy, POI repeatability, or minimum velocity for expansion are a big concern ;)
Don't get hung-up on one shot stop rounds, they don't exist. Unless you get a Central Nervous System (CNS) hit your target will be physically capable of continuing to attack. Any other hit that kills is the result of blood loss, shock, or infection...all of which takes time. If you are justified in using lethal force, continue to service your target until it is no longer a legal threat.
Most critical organs and the CNS are buried inside the human body, you need a round that will have at least 12 inches of penetration to insure you get to them. Keep in mind that while a CNS hit is certainly preferred, it also represents a relatively small target. That leaves you with shock and blood loss as the most likely path to removing the threat. The more blood you let out, the faster that will happen. While light varmint rounds do impressive damage on the surface, they don't have the penetration in most cases to get to vital organs in a human.
As to penetration of structures and the potential liability, ask yourself will a round that won't penetrate a wall penetrate deep enough into a human to get to the vital organs / CNS? The answer is probably not...at least not with reliability. The good news is most self-defense pistol calibers are actually a bigger risk for structure penetration than most traditional AR defense rounds so the AR is a step in the right direction.
Of course any round is capable of removing the threat, many people are killed by 22 rimfires! But would you want to bet yours or your families life on it?
Having said all the above, I think of self defense as a three legged stool. One leg is ammo, another is weapons reliability/availability, and the third is ability. All three are important and any one missing can get you killed.
Someone recommended to buy cheaper ammo and "shoot the hell" out of it...very good suggestion. That will go a long way in verifying the reliability and ability legs at a lower cost. Just be sure your practice is representative of your particular self defense scenarios.
For ammo selection, there's plenty of good quality information out there. Unfortunately, there's a lot of crap also. One place to start would be the Terminal Ballistic Information on this forum. There's some very good information there and in general good discussions. Start there in your search for your home defense round.
FloridaWoodsman
11-13-13, 13:39
In the video linked, the fellow suggests up to 62gr bullets. If you use heavier, you may get some "keyhole" entries. However, that is not a particularly bad thing for home defense, since it means the bullet will likely tumble and rip tissue.
Personally, I've got 55gr ZombieMax (a varmint round) for defense. I've also experimented with a 45gr frangible and was amazed at the cavity it made in a stack of soaked newspapers.
In the video linked, the fellow suggests up to 62gr bullets. If you use heavier, you may get some "keyhole" entries. However, that is not a particularly bad thing for home defense, since it means the bullet will likely tumble and rip tissue.
I didn't see the video... but I don't know how you'd get keyhole entries.... unless the barrel could not stabilize the bullet. 77 SMKs have by far been the most impressive combo of frag and penetration for me. I think Roberts felt they had a little too much penentration.
As far as frangibles... it's been mentioned, and I've seen it a little too... they behave like a solid bullet unless they hit a hard surface. They'd do bad dammage to someone shot by them... but are still not an optimal defense selection.
The fact that Hornady specifically mentions to not use those Zombiemax rounds for defense is probably a reason to switch to something else. Not saying that they won't work, but an over zealous prosecuting attorney might end up trying to make a case of it...
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FloridaWoodsman
11-13-13, 19:45
The fact that Hornady specifically mentions to not use those Zombiemax rounds for defense is probably a reason to switch to something else. Not saying that they won't work, but an over zealous prosecuting attorney might end up trying to make a case of it...
Firstly - No matter what ammo you use, a zealous attorney will find something "bad" about it. There's no escaping it.
Second - It was part of the promotional "joke". I forget the exact wording but it said something like "Only for use on Zombies, not human beings or animals. Maybe it was their way of emphasizing "this is not a toy".
Third - It is the same as their Critical Defense round except it has a different color on the plastic tip. I seem to recollect a user saying he got a little more speed out of the factory-loaded Zombie rounds, but I hand-load to mid-range of book specifications.
Fourth - An AR is my secondary for household use. I prefer a pistol in a tight space.
Fifth - I'm not in California or some other weird state, but I would follow your advice if I were.
FloridaWoodsman
11-13-13, 19:57
I didn't see the video... but I don't know how you'd get keyhole entries.... unless the barrel could not stabilize the bullet. 77 SMKs have by far been the most impressive combo of frag and penetration for me. ...
The original poster mentioned a 1 in 9 twist, and most people who like the heavy rounds seem to go for a tighter twist. But as I was saying, for close-in defense, it's an insignificant matter.
You could try some 77 gr ammo to see if it stabilizes. I love the 77 for Defense. If that wouldn't work, I'd look at a 62 gr bonded maybe.
Agree, I'd try some 77gr SMKs first and if they don't work well I'd try some 69 SMKs. I wouldn't do a bonded round for HD for the potential over penetration issue.
3ACR_Scout
11-17-13, 16:16
Just FYI, one thing to consider in your selection of training ammo is where you may be practicing. I bought a fair amount of M855 "Green Tip" this past summer when the ammo pipeline was just starting to open up and not much was available in bulk yet. After investing a decent amount of money, I found out that the two indoor ranges near me (the only close places to shoot) don't allow M855 because the steel core penetrator damages their bullet trap at the back of the range. So now I'm having to go back and buy M193 and other types of rounds to train with, and the M855 will sit in cans until I get a chance to train outdoors (or until the EMP attack...). Just something to check if you may be shooting at an indoor range.
FWIW, I zeroed my rifle yesterday with 64 gr Gold Dots, which I just picked up and plan to use for HD.
Dave
Nightvisionary
11-24-13, 20:50
For home defense loads in an AR I use light varmint bullets.. violently explosive on impact (with anything) which will help with (God forbid) a missed shot not passing through walls and other undesirable areas (adjacent bedrooms with poeple, the houses next door, etc.. ). A 40 to 55gr load like a vmax or similar is my choice for that purpose. Plenty enough to knock a perp down, likely kill him on the first shot and little risk of a passthrough.. ;)
Your twist rate will support most loads from 50 or so grains up to the 70 range.
That is really bad advice.
Nightvisionary
11-24-13, 20:57
The fact that Hornady specifically mentions to not use those Zombiemax rounds for defense is probably a reason to switch to something else. Not saying that they won't work, but an over zealous prosecuting attorney might end up trying to make a case of it...
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Can you document a single case of this actually happening? This seems to be one of those internet rumors that's gets repeated over and over without any basis in fact. If deadly force is reasonable the method is irrelevant. Zombie max are varmint bullets not defensive bullets. That is reason enough not to use them.
In the video linked, the fellow suggests up to 62gr bullets. If you use heavier, you may get some "keyhole" entries. However, that is not a particularly bad thing for home defense, since it means the bullet will likely tumble and rip tissue.
Personally, I've got 55gr ZombieMax (a varmint round) for defense. I've also experimented with a 45gr frangible and was amazed at the cavity it made in a stack of soaked newspapers.
Isn't keyholing incredibly inaccurate? I'd rather have an FMJ round that I could control over any other round that could go anywhere.
Can you document a single case of this actually happening? This seems to be one of those internet rumors that's gets repeated over and over without any basis in fact. If deadly force is reasonable the method is irrelevant. Zombie max are varmint bullets not defensive bullets. That is reason enough not to use them.
Ya know, not a single one with the ZMax rounds. But there are many incidents of PAs going after reloads as rounds handmade by the shooter for maximum lethality. Someone preparing for murder... I'm not saying it's accurate. The entire premise is completely idiotic. That said, I'd rather avoid any potential headaches in court and for home defense I stick with rounds that advertise accuracy, and are issued to LE for their carbines.
The last thing you need is an anti gun PA airing Hornady's ZMax promo video to a jury of your unaware "peers." There are lots of ammo options. The ZMax can stick to being a neat piece of zombie memorabilia, and a decent varmint round.
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Nightvisionary
11-26-13, 12:36
Ya know, not a single one with the ZMax rounds. But there are many incidents of PAs going after reloads as rounds handmade by the shooter for maximum lethality. Someone preparing for murder... I'm not saying it's accurate. The entire premise is completely idiotic. That said, I'd rather avoid any potential headaches in court and for home defense I stick with rounds that advertise accuracy, and are issued to LE for their carbines.
The last thing you need is an anti gun PA airing Hornady's ZMax promo video to a jury of your unaware "peers." There are lots of ammo options. The ZMax can stick to being a neat piece of zombie memorabilia, and a decent varmint round.
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Please provide documentation. If this is a real issue you should be able to provide links to the cases in question.
Please provide documentation. If this is a real issue you should be able to provide links to the cases in question.
Yeah... Never heard of these "many incidents". If you have a psycho leftist DA, anything is possible.... But I've never heard of any instances of ammo selection being critical.
There was a case here in AZ... the Harold Fisch case.... where they went after his choice of 10mm as a gun more powerful than that of the police. But his shoot was marginal at best as far as justifiable use of lethal force was concerned.
If you're justified in use of force, ammo will likely play no roll in your case.
The only high profile case I know of is the Harold Fish case, where there were numerous other factors. Reloads were still addressed as being assembled for maximum lethality.
A much more compelling factor being that I went to school with too many lawyers, and the few that I now shoot with all say stick to locally issued SD rounds. I live in way too liberal a place to disregard their advice as nothing more than fluff. They tell me that a DA is going to push an issue because they've seen BS like it happen, I listen. Who cares if it never makes trial. I don't get money back from my attorney if charges are not filed, and I can't sue them to recover my costs for an attorney.
The only high profile case I know of is the Harold Fish case, where there were numerous other factors. Reloads were still addressed as being assembled for maximum lethality.
I don't recall any mention of reloads in the Fisch case. It was caliber selection they tried to demonize. I could be wrong, but I don't recall Fisch being a handloader. Regardless... had Fisch's shoot been a little less borderline in the justifiable department, the caliber circus would have never made it to the stage.
I've turned to the Black Hills 5.56 50gr TSX Load. I shot a 1.14" 3 shot group @ 100 Yards with my Aimpoint T1 with this ammo out of my Colt 6920. Recoil is very Light.
It looks to be superb in the Terminal Ballistics department.
TacticalSledgehammer
12-02-13, 04:50
Seems I read something in a magazine about this. I think it was an article basically stating it could be possible for the PA to use it as a case of you looking for trouble. Also I believe it mentioned the disclaimer on the box in that article. I'm thinking it was around the time the Zmax rounds debuted. As far as I know, no cases of zombie max used in self defense exist.
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