View Full Version : SPR Bastardization
So I am about to acqire a higher-end precision SPR type rifle to be matched with a Leupold Mark-6 3-18x44 TMR and I need some input.
First I am not looking for you to talk me out of the requirements I list, and yes I own MANY DI guns, nice ones.
Meeting the following criteria, tell me, with price NOT being an issue what rifle you would select also, should be one of the more accurate piston guns.
1.) Piston Driven. I don't care how hard you just cringed, I have never expierianced any of the issues with them mentioned on this site and frankly I think the stigma here is a little over done. Nevertheless this will almost always be shot suppressed and reguardless what some think, there are some obvious benefits there.
2.) Complete rifle, not looking to mix and match this one, needs to be a factory rifle.
3.) Hold just over a modest 1 MOA with factory loads
4.) CHF barrel, 1in7 or 1in8.
5.) 16-18inch barrel, as it will be paired with my M4-2000 or SDN-6
Thats about it, not a real specific list, but that meets my needs. Whats your pick?
Good luck with your search.
Its good to hear from a professional.
IMO, IG's response is as nice as he could put it based on the title of the thread & requirement #1.
No great love for piston AR's here (btdt)
If you just have to have a piston gun & money is no object:
HK MR 556 or LWRC (sorry Markm)
IMO, IG's response is as nice as he could put it based on the title of the thread & requirement #1.
No great love for piston AR's here (btdt)
If you just have to have a piston gun & money is no object:
HK MR 556 or LWRC (sorry Markm)
Yeah, I figure I'd mail Markm the T-shirt and stickers that come with the LWRC, which at this point is my prime canidate. M6A2 SPR I don't think would have an issue with holding that accuracy. I am not looking to start a piston soap-box thread, but you have to admit most people just tend to spew the same verbal diarrhea without the first hand knowledge. There are a few of us on this forum that have had amazing results with them. At this point I am just wanting a dedicated suppressor rifle for 500 and in. I was all for the HK but I have never owned a non-chromed ar before, and the high round count jury is still out on that one ain't it?
IIRC,
Neither the HK nor the LWRC are chrome but are both CHF'd. I abused a HK93 back in the mid 80's & the barrel was no worse for wear or accuracy.
I wouldn't worry about it not being chrome lined.
Have you considered this: http://www.barrett.net/firearms/rec7
I know a few people that use them in other places and I've not heard any complaints. Just food for thought as I do not presently own a piston gun.
The only piston gun I would ever buy is the HK MR556. Would much rather have the HK416 if it was available to mere mortals like me.
http://forum.lwrci.com/viewtopic.php?p=100918 This guy seems to have a rifle that fits the bill.
Look at the PWS offerings as well. Most are more accurate than the comparable piston rifles. I'm not a LWRCi fan but we just got in 2 of the IC-SPRs and they may change my mind.
The reason I said "good luck" is because you set qualifiers that practically guarantee you won't get what you want.
1.) Piston Driven. I don't care how hard you just cringed, I have never expierianced any of the issues with them mentioned on this site and frankly I think the stigma here is a little over done. Nevertheless this will almost always be shot suppressed and reguardless what some think, there are some obvious benefits there.
You haven't but others have. Not saying that you can't get a good one, but the issues are there and known.
2.) Complete rifle, not looking to mix and match this one, needs to be a factory rifle.
3.) Hold just over a modest 1 MOA with factory loads - There are few, if any companies that will guarantee a semi-auto DI or piston gun to hold this standard. There are plenty of other variables to account for such as ammo, optics and the person behind the gun.
4.) CHF barrel, 1in7 or 1in8. Chrome barrels are good and they can be accurate, but there is no guarantee.
5.) 16-18inch barrel, as it will be paired with my M4-2000 or SDN-6 Adding a suppressor is another variable to the equation. See #3
The reason I said "good luck" is because you set qualifiers that practically guarantee you won't get what you want. Which part?
1.) Piston Driven. I don't care how hard you just cringed, I have never expierianced any of the issues with them mentioned on this site and frankly I think the stigma here is a little over done. Nevertheless this will almost always be shot suppressed and reguardless what some think, there are some obvious benefits there.
You haven't but others have. Not saying that you can't get a good one, but the issues are there and known. Issues have been well documented with part breakages in ALL ARs I have ever owned once getting up around 8500 rounds.
2.) Complete rifle, not looking to mix and match this one, needs to be a factory rifle.
3.) Hold just over a modest 1 MOA with factory loads - There are few, if any companies that will guarantee a semi-auto DI or piston gun to hold this standard. There are plenty of other variables to account for such as ammo, optics and the person behind the gun. Optics affect a firearms accuracy? Even my shortest duty SBR shoots close to MOA with off the shelf FGGM...
4.) CHF barrel, 1in7 or 1in8. Chrome barrels are good and they can be accurate, but there is no guarantee. ??? CHF= Cold Hammer Forged
5.) 16-18inch barrel, as it will be paired with my M4-2000 or SDN-6 Adding a suppressor is another variable to the equation. See #3 Adding a can to rifles has always seemed to assist accuracy, esp with my bolt guns.
I feel as though if I would have asked this exact same question without listing piston it would not be an issue. We get it, you gents prefer DI. Thats fine, and like I said I own quality DI guns already. But, from my experience shooting almost exclusively suppressed, I have always preferred my piston rigs.
QuietShootr
11-11-13, 07:30
http://www.rottenecards.com/ecards/Rottenecards_96238572_4fjxrq8fwd.png
I respect every bit of info I receive here and am very grateful for all who take the time to help with a response. That said, what that I stated do you disagree with? You may not know this, but it is possible to disagree and not be an asshole.
You obviously don't understand anything of what I said. So I bid you adieu and I hope you find what you are looking for.
Adding a can to rifles has always seemed to assist accuracy, esp with my bolt guns.
I feel as though if I would have asked this exact same question without listing piston it would not be an issue. We get it, you gents prefer DI. Thats fine, and like I said I own quality DI guns already. But, from my experience shooting almost exclusively suppressed, I have always preferred my piston rigs.
pointblank4445
11-12-13, 13:16
Have you considered this: http://www.barrett.net/firearms/rec7
I know a few people that use them in other places and I've not heard any complaints. Just food for thought as I do not presently own a piston gun.
Hey!...good to see they ditched that ARMs rail.
OP, the HK MR556 is as close as you're going to get to your requirements. It's a factory piston gun with 16" 1:7 CHF barrel. There are those who claim to have wrung it out to sub-MOA....take that for what it's worth ($0).
I'm not aware of any "higher-end" pistons. It's somewhat a mutually exclusive scenario. If you want to pretend to get high end, you could overpay for some LWRCi piston junk.
And I don't know anyone who shoots more cans than Pappabear. And although we've never had an accuracy degradation of note.... we've also never seen quantifiable increase in accuracy.... and we're not slamming ball ammo where that would go unnoticed.
1.) Piston Driven. I don't care how hard you just cringed, I have never expierianced any of the issues with them mentioned on this site and frankly I think the stigma here is a little over done. Nevertheless this will almost always be shot suppressed and reguardless what some think, there are some obvious benefits there.
I'm not going to debate the merits of DI versus piston, but if you are using this rifle suppressed all the time, just be aware that even with a piston driven AR you're going to end up with tons of crap coming back into the upper receiver. There's actually an interview with John Noveske where he addresses this, but the gist of it is that the bolt unlocks while gas is still compressed in the suppressor, so it vents out both ends of the barrel. If your expectation is that a piston driven AR will run cleaner, you're not going to see much benefit if you always use a suppressor.
If I was the OP, I'd seriously look at dropping the piston and CHF requirement. A Noveske switchblock stainless gun should fit the other criteria fine for a factory gun.
I've never seen the lucky guy that got the 1 MOA HK 556 AR with factory ammo. Some with hand loads though. They have the only ok piston gun, avoid the other piston ARs like a girl with a blue waffle.
DreadPirateMoyer
11-12-13, 21:46
If I was the OP, I'd seriously look at dropping the piston and CHF requirement. A Noveske switchblock stainless gun should fit the other criteria fine for a factory gun.
I've never seen the lucky guy that got the 1 MOA HK 556 AR with factory ammo. Some with hand loads though. They have the only ok piston gun, avoid the other piston ARs like a girl with a blue waffle.
OP, I ran a set-up exactly like what you're looking for. It was an LWRCI M6A5 that came from the factory with a CHF nitride barrel, switchblock, free float rail, and Geissele SSA trigger. Out of the box, it's a great package, and it shot MOA all day long with a Vortex 2.5x-10x32mm on top. I ran it suppressed almost exclusively.
I recently sold it.
Running the gun suppressed essentially negates all of the "advantages" of a piston system (which, now that I've been in the game for a while, I've come to accept that there aren't any in the first place). The gun gets absolutely filthy -- just as filthy as my BCMs, in fact. After a few rounds, if you took a look at the uppers, lowers, inside of the magazines used, and the BCGs, you wouldn't be able to tell which one is DI and which one is piston (outside of the obvious design differences, of course). There's really no point in going with a piston system if you're going to run your gun suppressed.
On top of that, I also sold my 2 LWRCI rifles (M6A5 and M6-IC) because of some realizations I had during the gun rush. In particular, if some draconian ban ever went into affect, causing LWRCI to go under since it's not kept afloat by as many government contracts as other manufacturers, I would be SOL if anything broke. Replacement parts would be incredibly hard (and expensive) to find. Mil-spec AR-15 parts, however? They'd be everywhere. Any breakages or replacements could be remedied much more easily.
I've been there and I've done that, OP. Don't waste the time and money like I did. I now own nothing but BCMs and Colts, and it's much, much better. They're more accurate, they're lighter, they're equally reliable, they run no differently than a piston system when run suppressed, and the parts commonality is a selling point in and of itself in today's political climate. Buy a Noveske or BCM SPR/RECCE and don't look back.
I think a few things get lost on people. You're right in that you still need to clean and it will still get dirty. The difference is that the interval may be longer, between sessions.
Your second point is on the money and I tell this to people in the classes. If these companies shut down, once the initial parts have dried up and they will you will be at the mercy of whomever has them. With a standard DI set up you can rest assured parts are everywhere, although if you wait until a panic you will pay a premium. Right now is the time to be getting all the spare stuff you can.
OP, I ran a set-up exactly like what you're looking for. It was an LWRCI M6A5 that came from the factory with a CHF nitride barrel, switchblock, free float rail, and Geissele SSA trigger. Out of the box, it's a great package, and it shot MOA all day long with a Vortex 2.5x-10x32mm on top. I ran it suppressed almost exclusively.
I recently sold it.
Running the gun suppressed essentially negates all of the "advantages" of a piston system (which, now that I've been in the game for a while, I've come to accept that there aren't any in the first place). The gun gets absolutely filthy -- just as filthy as my BCMs, in fact. After a few rounds, if you took a look at the uppers, lowers, inside of the magazines used, and the BCGs, you wouldn't be able to tell which one is DI and which one is piston (outside of the obvious design differences, of course). There's really no point in going with a piston system if you're going to run your gun suppressed.
On top of that, I also sold my 2 LWRCI rifles (M6A5 and M6-IC) because of some realizations I had during the gun rush. In particular, if some draconian ban ever went into affect, causing LWRCI to go under since it's not kept afloat by as many government contracts as other manufacturers, I would be SOL if anything broke. Replacement parts would be incredibly hard (and expensive) to find. Mil-spec AR-15 parts, however? They'd be everywhere. Any breakages or replacements could be remedied much more easily.
I've been there and I've done that, OP. Don't waste the time and money like I did. I now own nothing but BCMs and Colts, and it's much, much better. They're more accurate, they're lighter, they're equally reliable, they run no differently than a piston system when run suppressed, and the parts commonality is a selling point in and of itself in today's political climate. Buy a Noveske or BCM SPR/RECCE and don't look back.
Have you looked at POF. My departments SWAT team has a couple of their 308s and the are supposedly accurate enough for your requirements.
OP, I ran a set-up exactly like what you're looking for. It was an LWRCI M6A5 that came from the factory with a CHF nitride barrel, switchblock, free float rail, and Geissele SSA trigger. Out of the box, it's a great package, and it shot MOA all day long with a Vortex 2.5x-10x32mm on top. I ran it suppressed almost exclusively.
I recently sold it.
Running the gun suppressed essentially negates all of the "advantages" of a piston system (which, now that I've been in the game for a while, I've come to accept that there aren't any in the first place). The gun gets absolutely filthy -- just as filthy as my BCMs, in fact. After a few rounds, if you took a look at the uppers, lowers, inside of the magazines used, and the BCGs, you wouldn't be able to tell which one is DI and which one is piston (outside of the obvious design differences, of course). There's really no point in going with a piston system if you're going to run your gun suppressed.
On top of that, I also sold my 2 LWRCI rifles (M6A5 and M6-IC) because of some realizations I had during the gun rush. In particular, if some draconian ban ever went into affect, causing LWRCI to go under since it's not kept afloat by as many government contracts as other manufacturers, I would be SOL if anything broke. Replacement parts would be incredibly hard (and expensive) to find. Mil-spec AR-15 parts, however? They'd be everywhere. Any breakages or replacements could be remedied much more easily.
I've been there and I've done that, OP. Don't waste the time and money like I did. I now own nothing but BCMs and Colts, and it's much, much better. They're more accurate, they're lighter, they're equally reliable, they run no differently than a piston system when run suppressed, and the parts commonality is a selling point in and of itself in today's political climate. Buy a Noveske or BCM SPR/RECCE and don't look back.
This was extremely helpful, thank you. My department currently uses a few POFs too, however no .308s. I have come to the conclusion that I will be selling all other piston ARs I own (3) with the exception of this new purchase, which I am sorry to say that I am set on owning 1 piston rifle. I will be swapping the others and picking up a nice plain old 'BCM Recce 14 Mod 0 FDE' from Grant. I am happy to see the M6A5 was meeting that accuracy standard, and I think I am about to pull the trigger on an M6A2 SPR unless you see a problem running that in an SPR type setting. Suppressors are flat out dirty, no matter what I seem to shoot them on, crap finds its way into every little crevice on the firearm.
I think a few things get lost on people. You're right in that you still need to clean and it will still get dirty. The difference is that the interval may be longer, between sessions.
Your second point is on the money and I tell this to people in the classes. If these companies shut down, once the initial parts have dried up and they will you will be at the mercy of whomever has them. With a standard DI set up you can rest assured parts are everywhere, although if you wait until a panic you will pay a premium. Right now is the time to be getting all the spare stuff you can.
I am at around or near 9500 rounds with my duty M6A2 12.7" with the only parts that have been replaced are, buffer spring x3, ACB extractor x2, and one bolt. The gun has been flawless for me and many of my fellow officers. I also have a Ruger Sr556 that I have abused and it is around 6.5-7k with only buffer spring and extractor spring changes. I see spare parts and an inherent cost of a new firearms purchase. Also, as long as LWRC remains on the approved weapons list of my agency, they will incur all cost associated with regular maintenance/parts breakage. I will however be selling both of these to pay for the new rifle, but at the same time ordering a BCM recce 14 Mod 0 from Grant, to be a one and only duty rifle. (less the department M16s)
The M6A2 is a decent carbine - keep it. It's working for you, don't change that, especially if your dept. is helping with some PM costs. Definitely don't take a massive hit selling this to buy a big long heavy piston upper.
I'd get the R14M0, and then just leave it at those two. Differentiate them with glass (aimpoint on the 12.7", run some magnified optic on the recce), or run them in similar configuartion. With those two, you're already there.
Other than that, just start reading a lot. You'll see why the above is the advice I've offered, and eventually why IG was actually trying like hell to be really helpful. Search for why piston and rifle length gas anything are contraindicated for anything useful. 18" rifles are already towards the heavy side, adding weight and complexity just doesn't help that. A DI gun is cheaper, freeing up a budget to get yourself a really good can that could live on either of your remaining rifles.
i second the SCAR motion.
i second the SCAR motion.
I am currently waiting on a stamp for a 10.5 FDE that will sport an AAC Mini4 and micro t1. I am a fan of the scar, just not in a precision set up. Despite the negativity here, the LWRCs of other officer's that I have been shooting ARE meeting the 1MOA accuracy standard with FGGM. After the I burn money on a ring for the woman, Ill have an OD Green M6-SPR (with that pretty spiral fluted barrel :dance3: ) on order. I'll run it with the mini4 for a while to see how that goes. TBC
Terribleone1
12-18-13, 23:29
well i dont have many posts but i do know what my experience has ben with di and piston as far as accuracy...no ar i have owned will shoot like my noveske afgan witch has done sub moa @ 100 with american eagle 55gr :) but....... my lwrc m6a2 will come in second place with doing a solid 1 moa @ 100. My only complaint with the lw is how heavy it is in current form optic, bi pod and full mag its around 10 lbs and its a 14.7":( but if you will be running a can i would go piston all day im not a fan of being blasted in the face with slip 2000 and and hot gas lol or when you wake up the next day and all you can smell is burnt powder. As for the mr556 i feel imo witch is based on what i get for my money that it is in know way shape or form worth it..... you are buying the name and this is coming from a guy who has and still does own a few hk products....dont ever think that what the us gov buys is the best most contracts go to the lowest bidder and has lots of politics involved :( and when is the las time anyone on hear has shot a class and even seen an instructor running any hk product ?
Either get a SCAR or an LMT. It LMT weighs a lot. But LMT would be my number one choice if I had to try my hand at Piston.
YES, I GUZZLE LMT KOOLAID.
Either get a SCAR or an LMT. It LMT weighs a lot. But LMT would be my number one choice if I had to try my hand at Piston.
YES, I GUZZLE LMT KOOLAID.
I love the LMT koolaid as well, but if I were to buy another LMT it would be an MWS. I think for now, after I swallow the bill on that damn diamond, I am going to go with the LWRC M6-SPR 16.1 inch running it with my Mini-4.
From what I have read here It will blow up in my face after 50 rounds/ give me "Low T"/ become a vegatarian/ make me vote democrat. So when that happens I will replace it with a BCM precision. :suicide:
HK MR556 sounds like your ticket. Not confident in LWRC stuff, too many dissenting opinions.
I know this is what you want so I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. But, in MY experience, the only advantage a piston gives you is in full auto(and not a lot). This is thousands of rounds, and if Larry Vickers says the same thing, that should be a clue(a lot more rounds than me, plus a lot more everything).
Buy what YOU want, but do the research. Looks like what you are doing...
Downrange1x
12-27-13, 12:28
From my personal experience owning a HK MR 556, LMT CQB MRP 20", SCAR16 and the best one I have ever owned and will be with me to the end is one I had John Noveske build for me back in 2010 . Take a serious look at their 18" SS barreled SPR w/Switchbloc option for suppressed usage. This platform has from day one until this day held sub-moa groups using 68 and 77 gr.BTHP Match ammo.On a normal day it shoots a .42" - 5 shot group. If I do my part. Also with the switchbloc unit you are able to run the platform as a single shot bolt gun w/suppressor .
+1 on the Noveske 18" rifle gas with the switchblock. Those are awesome, I don't think those are made anymore though.
Never been a huge fan of 18" barrels, however the Gen III 16" Switchblock looks like it would be a perfect setup.
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