556 brass decapping and cleaning [Archive]

strider51

11-11-13, 19:36

hello yall,

I have thousands of 556 that I have been keeping. I'm going to use a single stage press (I ordered the LEE breech lock anniversary edition).

What i need to know:

What dies and tools do I need to decapp, decrimp, and clean the brass?

I'm looking for quality stuff.

I plan on using my single stage forever, i want to build accurate match rounds for the various amateur competitions (usually at 50/100-200 yds).

I also have a nice M1A, so anything I can use for 7.62x51 would be hwelpful as well (although much less often).

Much appreciated

JR TACTICAL

11-11-13, 20:15

Hi and welcome to the forum.

To answer some of your questuons, the Lee sizing/decaping die will work just fine. If I remember correctly, Lee sells a die kit with a size, and bullet seating die. You will need a trimming station to trim your brass and I would invest in a digital scale to measure your loads.

As far as cleaning goes, I have switched over to wet tumbler and I will never go back to the walnut/corn dry style but that is just me. Also use the SEARCH function of the website if its working again, therr is alot of good info on here.

RearwardAssist

11-11-13, 21:18

And get a reloading manual like the lyman's it will go over all the basics and safety precautions.

markm

11-12-13, 08:01

I use the Lee universal decapping die. But I had to dremmel that thing so the pin holder had more taper to enter .22 caliber case necks. If you get an uneven rim it'll snag and sometimes ding your neck. reshaping that thing made my decapping speed increase a lot.

I use the hornady pocket reamer bit in a drill to remove the crimp. It's cheap and effective. I didn't like the super swager, but some people love it.

You don't have to stick to a single stage to load Match ammo. I can get 1/4 MOA on my Dillon with a nice seating die and good powder.

shootist~

11-12-13, 10:00

The Dillon universal decapper is already nicely tapered at the pin holder.

markm

11-12-13, 10:21

I didn't know they had one. I suffered for a while before busting out the dremel on my LEE.

Airhasz

11-12-13, 10:33

I second getting a reloading manual. It's going to answer all of the questions you are asking.

bigedp51

11-12-13, 12:11

I use the hornady pocket reamer bit in a drill to remove the crimp. It's cheap and effective. I didn't like the super swager, but some people love it.

I ream my primer pockets also but I loose a lot of cases due to over sized primer pockets. I was told that by using the Dillon swager you are not removing any brass and end up with tighter primer pockets because the brass displaced and not removed.

I used the Hornady unit below on my .223/5.56 crimped cases and three five gallon buckets of once fired brass. Needless to say this will make your fingers sore and I was having a 50% failure rate on primer pockets with Federal cases. This make me wonder if Dillon unit would make the primer pockets tighter.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/reamertips001_zps433f8557.jpg

The top reamer below is the RCBS reamer made for their case prep station and only removes the crimp and tapers the mouth of the primer pocket. You can see it is tapered and does not touch the walls of the primer pocket, I used the front reamer as a NO GO gauge. Meaning if the reamer entered the primer pocket without touching anything the reaming process was done.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/reamertips002_zps4ce4694b.jpg

Below I bought a primer pocket gauge and pin gauges to measure primer pockets, rather than seat primers and find out I had oversize loose primer pockets.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/primerpocketgauge_zps9ed585b1.jpg

I would very much like to know what you didn't like about the Dillon unit because I'm thinking about buying one.

markm

11-12-13, 12:28

Ironman8

11-12-13, 14:21

I use the hornady pocket reamer bit in a drill to remove the crimp. It's cheap and effective. I didn't like the super swager, but some people love it.

Mark, good to see ya back! :D

I've got the Super Swager, but I'm starting to think I don't like it since it doesn't take out the crimp evenly around the entire circumference of the primer pocket mouth (if that makes sense)...not to mention you can ream/swage it too much and ruin the pocket.....do you feel the Hornady Pocket Reamer is the best option out there? Also, is it possible to ream it too much? I've read that you can bottom out and still be good...

bigedp51

11-12-13, 15:49

Without having tried the thing... I can guess that the guage is a monumental addition of time in the brass prep process..... I almost NEVER have to back a primer out for being too loose... maybe 2-3 per every 10 thousand pieces. Almost always, the pocket is good enought to fire at least once more. So I'll mark the weak brass for final firing, then scrap.

markm

Federal is famous for soft brass and loose primer pockets and my problem was I didn't know this until AFTER cleaning and prepping a five gallon bucket full of FC 05 cases. When I started seating primers half the cases had loose primer pockets, rather than seat a primer and have to push a live primer back out, I used the gauge "to save time". Any "monumental addition of time" was removing the good primer from bad brass that had been prepped and resized.

I'm using a .1745 pin gauge as minimum primer pocket diameter, anything larger and a Lee depriming tool will push the primer out with just finger pressure.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/looseprimer004_zps1cb656b2.jpg

This is NOT wasting time gauging primer pockets, BEFORE wet tumble the cases with stainless steel media and full length resizing these cases only to find out the primer pockets are too loose when seating a new primer. You remove the primer and ream the primer pocket crimp and gauge the diameter of the primer pocket. THEN trash the bad cases and then work on the GOOD cases. ;)

Airhasz

11-12-13, 17:36

bigedp51

11-12-13, 19:44

With all due respect, Biged...your are OBSESSED with primer pockets! Like Markm and many others, if the case holds a primer I load it. If it was somewhat loose, I'll also mark it and scrap after firing. I've loaded and fired thousands of rounds without problems. Carry on.

A over gasses AR15 can have the bolt moving to the rear while there is still pressure in the barrel and cause a loose primer to pop out and jam the action or the trigger group. Loose primers can also leak and etch and score the bolt face as pictured below. The person who posted this picture below said he didn't care if the primer pockets were loose and when the bolt got bad enough he would buy a new one. Sorry I don't belong to the Bubba dumb shit reloading club thank you very much.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/coltbolt-1_zps146f5233.jpg

Airhasz, I would NEVER shoot your reloads, the purpose of reloading is to make ammunition equal to and preferably "BETTER" than factory ammunition. Therefore again I would never shoot any of your "substandard" ammunition you reload. And I'm not OBSESSED with your reloading ability.

The military crimps their primer pockets for a reason and you seem to have forgotten why.

And by the way, just Google soft brass and loose primer pockets on Federal brass and quit telling me what I should or shouldn't reload in YOUR opinion. The last thing anyone needs is a primer cup or anvil jamming up their rifle.

Now "carry on" somewhere else, and stop making dumb comments about ammunition YOU are NOT reloading.

Ironman8

11-12-13, 21:17

A over gasses AR15 can have the bolt moving to the rear while there is still pressure in the barrel and cause a loose primer to pop out and jam the action or the trigger group. Loose primers can also leak and etch and score the bolt face as pictured below. The person who posted this picture below said he didn't care if the primer pockets were loose and when the bolt got bad enough he would buy a new one. Sorry I don't belong to the Bubba dumb shit reloading club thank you very much.

Airhasz, I would NEVER shoot your reloads, the purpose of reloading is to make ammunition equal to and preferably "BETTER" than factory ammunition. Therefore again I would never shoot any of your "substandard" ammunition you reload. And I'm not OBSESSED with your reloading ability.

The military crimps their primer pockets for a reason and you seem to have forgotten why.

And by the way, just Google soft brass and loose primer pockets on Federal brass and quit telling me what I should or shouldn't reload in YOUR opinion. The last thing anyone needs is a primer cup or anvil jamming up their rifle.

Now "carry on" somewhere else, and stop making dumb comments about ammunition YOU are NOT reloading.

Ahhhh I bet you feel better now huh?....oh the joy of the internetz :alcoholic:

SeriousStudent

11-12-13, 21:26

Let's all chill, shall we?

bigedp51

11-12-13, 23:56

Below is a 0.175 pin gauge and it is the same diameter as a new small rifle primer, as you can see the pin gauge entered the primer pocket. I can insert a primer into this case with my finger and the primer pocket is stretched and over sized after its first firing.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/looseprimer005_zps7fe118e2.jpg

I have a second pin gauge that is 0.1745 or .0005 (1/2 thousandths smaller) and I use it as my reject gauge. Meaning if the pin gauge doesn't fit the primer pocket is OK to reload. By using these pin gauges right after removing the primer crimp if the case fails it goes in the scrap bucket. This way I do not have do any further case prep and resizing only to find out the primer pocket is too loose when a new primer is seated.

The moderator at ar15.com reloading forum has made many posting about loose primer pockets and thin flash hole webs on Federal brass and how to check them. It appears there are a few people that are behind the times about soft Federal brass and reloading.

I have three five gallon buckets of once fired .223/5.56 brass that I got after our local Police and SWAT teams practiced with their AR15 rifles. And the most troublesome brass is Federal and most of these are stamped FC 05 and have stretched primer pockets. It is not a obsession with primer pockets, it is a work and time saver that helps in loading quality ammunition and not have primers falling out and jamming or damaging my AR15 rifles.

Airhasz

11-13-13, 01:42

I've got 11,700 rounds through my Colt M4A1 in the last year and a half with at least 9,500 of them my reloads. I've not had one primer fall out period let alone jam my FCG. The Colt boltface looks very good and is not pitted like the above picture. The bolt in the pic is probably not a hardened mil spec grade bolt would be my guess as to why it is pitted so bad. I only use BCM and Colt bolts in my ARs and have had excellent results. Just because others have not experienced your boltface pitting and primer pocket problems is not a reason to call people knuckle draggers and behind the times or other degrading names. As for not wanting to shoot my reloads, you should be aware of rule #1 of ammo reloading...only shoot your own reloads.

bigedp51

11-13-13, 02:32

Just because others have not experienced your boltface pitting and primer pocket problems is not a reason to call people knuckle draggers and behind the times or other degrading names.

None of my AR15 bolt faces are pitted because I inspect my primer pockets, if your unaware of the Federal soft brass and loose primer pockets issue that's not my problem. And no one called you a knuckle dragger in this posting but you might be OBSESSED with MY primer pockets.

The strange part of this is your sitting looking at your computer screen hundreds if not thousands of miles from my reloading bench and telling me what is a acceptable primer pocket for me to reload. On top of this you "THINK" you can look at a bolt face photo and decide if its milspec or not. Your comments are simply amazing, I have been reload for over 46 years and can't believe your audacity making comments on cases you have never seen.

Feel free to carry on. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/popCorn_zpsb568acd0.gif

Airhasz

11-13-13, 03:23

For the record anyone viewing this thread can see I have only made comments on my experience. You are taking this too seriously. You seem to get upset when one has a different opinion than yours. No one persons opinion is the gold standard no matter how many years reloading they keep reminding us they have.

polymorpheous

11-13-13, 08:00

markm

11-13-13, 08:30

The military crimps their primer pockets for a reason and you seem to have forgotten why.

Are you crimping your primer pockets?

markm

Federal is famous for soft brass and loose primer pockets and my problem was I didn't know this until AFTER cleaning and prepping a five gallon bucket full of FC 05 cases. When I started seating primers half the cases had loose primer pockets, rather than seat a primer and have to push a live primer back out, I used the gauge "to save time". Any "monumental addition of time" was removing the good primer from bad brass that had been prepped and resized.

I'm using a .1745 pin gauge as minimum primer pocket diameter, anything larger and a Lee depriming tool will push the primer out with just finger pressure.

This is NOT wasting time gauging primer pockets, BEFORE wet tumble the cases with stainless steel media and full length resizing these cases only to find out the primer pockets are too loose when seating a new primer. You remove the primer and ream the primer pocket crimp and gauge the diameter of the primer pocket. THEN trash the bad cases and then work on the GOOD cases. ;)

Hey... if that's working for you... by all means. There's no ONE RIGHT answer for this stuff.

I've worked with 10s of thousands of pieces of Fed .223 brass..... I'm not sure if I've done a significant amount of 05 though. Depending on the Factory load, however... yeah... marginal brass is going to suck when you go to prime it.

The plain old Value pack Fed brass has always been really decent stuff for me..... since it was loaded to moderate .223 pressures.

The highest cull rate brass that I've experienced is by far, L C 1 0. I'm not drawing from the same pool of brass that others are, but those are my weakest pieces.

markm

11-13-13, 08:48

Another factor in the equation is primer size variations. I'm running Wolf primers which tend to give a tighter pocket tension feel than some other American brands.

And using a Sinclair priming tool... although not the most efficient for volume, does give the loader an outstanding FEEL for the pocket tension and the anvil bottoming out.

bigedp51

11-13-13, 09:07

For the record anyone viewing this thread can see I have only made comments on my experience.

Biged...your are OBSESSED with primer pockets! Like Markm and many others, if the case holds a primer I load it. Carry on.

And a picture is worth a thousand words, the pin gauge is the same diameter as a primer. And telling someone they are OBSESSED with primer pockets only shows your inexperience on the matter. This subject of loose primer pockets is all over the internet and all you have to do is read about it instead of insulting people.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/looseprimer005_zps7fe118e2.jpg

Not only is Federal brass on the soft side they made their cases too thin at the web flash hole causing oversized primer pockets after the first firing. I also have a gauge for measuring web thickness to cull these defective cases. I also consider passing this information on as being HELPFUL and not being OBSESSED.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/FCvsMilbrasssectioned_zpsc7001386.jpg

Testing for loose primer pockets, if the primer can be pushed out with finger pressure the primer pocket is oversized.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/testprimers_zps315f4689.jpg

And the two photos above were from a posting by the reloading moderator at ar15.com and he wouldn't like your OBSESSED comment either. What I have presented here are facts known all over the internet and apparently this information didn't get to everyone as seen by your comments.

For the record anyone viewing this thread can see I have only made comments on my experience.

markm

11-13-13, 09:14

Not only is Federal brass on the soft side they made their cases too thin at the web flash hole causing oversized primer pockets after the first firing.

I've had some TERRIBLE FED brass before... the 90s era brass was pathetic... but the thing I've noticed is FC brass varies a lot. :\

bigedp51

11-13-13, 09:16

Another factor in the equation is primer size variations. I'm running Wolf primers which tend to give a tighter pocket tension feel than some other American brands.

Really, I wonder why I have this photo stored at photobucket.:rolleyes:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/calhoonprimers02_zpsb8295b11.png

And these links saved in my favorites. ;)

CHOOSING THE RIGHT PRIMER - A PRIMER ON PRIMERS
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0

Primers - Small Rifle Primer Study
A Match Primer Study in the 6BR Cartridge
By Germán A. Salazar

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/06/primers-small-rifle-primer-study.html

Waylander

11-13-13, 09:38

I HATE corn cob/walnut tumbling and will probably move to wet soon.

I use the Lee universal decapping die. But I had to dremmel that thing so the pin holder had more taper to enter .22 caliber case necks. If you get an uneven rim it'll snag and sometimes ding your neck. reshaping that thing made my decapping speed increase a lot.

I use the hornady pocket reamer bit in a drill to remove the crimp. It's cheap and effective. I didn't like the super swager, but some people love it.

You don't have to stick to a single stage to load Match ammo. I can get 1/4 MOA on my Dillon with a nice seating die and good powder.

I can second the Lee decapping die. It's pretty much bullet proof and cheap if it ever breaks. I think I jammed mine in a flash hole that was too small and bent the pin but it was easy to straighten back out and keep going. the dremel is a good idea (I don't know that I'd take it that far ;)) maybe I'll just file the tip a little.

Mark, good to see ya back! :D

I've got the Super Swager, but I'm starting to think I don't like it since it doesn't take out the crimp evenly around the entire circumference of the primer pocket mouth (if that makes sense)...not to mention you can ream/swage it too much and ruin the pocket.....do you feel the Hornady Pocket Reamer is the best option out there? Also, is it possible to ream it too much? I've read that you can bottom out and still be good...

Without having the Dillon swager take this with a grain of salt but I've also seen the same thing with some brass I bought that had been swaged. You can set it up right and not swage too much but I don't like the weird stamp it leaves on my brass (OCD I know) and don't trust it as much as just taking a decrimping tool and lightly touching it to take a little of the edge off. Besides it's a somewhat expensive (if you end up not liking it) and time consuming tool.

I've read several people using a deburring tool to remove the crimp but sometimes they chatter. I'm going to try a zero flute countersink since it won't chatter, give the pocket a little touch and see how it works out.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003EIKP8C/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2J3HTRQTOFM4B&coliid=I2BBW9XMYN7WC2

markm

11-13-13, 09:49

tb-av

11-13-13, 09:57

Waylander

11-13-13, 10:02

I still run the Walnut for Lube removal and drying my brass after SS media. Some would say that it's nuts to do an additional tumble, but it's just the way I like to do it.

On the Lee.... by tip, you don't mean the pin right? It's the pin holder that I relieved. I didn't go ape shit on it.... just enought to allow it into the case mouth without sacrificing any pin grip within the die.

The Hornady pocket reamer is cheap, never chatters, and is pretty much no brainer to use. Trying the super swager isn't a lifetime commitment... you can always get out of the Super Swager by selling it. That's what I did.

Yep my bad I misread and thought you meant the very tip of the pin. Lol. I think an uneven flash hole bent mine.
I haven't done much .22 cal decapping so haven't run into the issue with the pin holder but will take notice.

Some people use their wet tumbler with soap and without pins to clean the lube off.
I personally would probably do a corn cob tumble for lube removal and drying. Walnut has seemed to dusty for me even with dryer sheets and case polish.

markm

11-13-13, 10:27

Waylander

11-13-13, 10:55

If I removed lube with a wet method, I'd still end up running walnut to dry... so... ;)

On the decapper... it's just a matter of getting dings and stuff in the rim.. the decapper works ok without mods.... it's just more forgiving with a little reshaping of the pin holder.

I see your point. I run fine walnut granules sometimes and it would soak up the water pretty quickly and remove the lube in one step. If you're in a hurry to start loading. If not I usually just let it sit in the hot sun a couple of hours after sonic cleaning :)

Does the Lee decapper usually break primers apart as in separating the cup and the anvil?
Before I took the decapping pin out of my RCBS die it would never do that :confused:

GLShooter

11-13-13, 11:00

If I had three five gallons buckets of brass I would find someone with a 650, hooked up with a case feeder and knock 'em out. No way would I do that many on a single stage. That is probably right on 10,000+ cases. I have large amnounts of brass also but no desire to prep it all. If I need a hundred or five I go get 'em out of the bucket and start in. I also found the Dlilon Trimer to be great for starting to make 20 Practicals as it tends to make the necks smaller than I would do with a regular rig and the sizing down is much easier. Then I use that base brass to make 20 Practicals and Tacticals and whne a wild hare runs by 17/223's.

I swage and cut primers depending on the mood. Lately I have been experimenting with the deburring tool set up and it is doing OK. I have the Dillon and RCBS swagers along with Lyman and Hornady reamers. I also tend to use a pocket unifiormer from Sinclair on 98% of what I load. My uber-good match stuff is hand primed so when I find a loose one it goes in the scrap bucket. Judious tipping of the powder can seems to limit that experince though.

Greg

BTW on my Lee Universal decapper I chucked it up in a drill and dressed down the shaft. I can now use it on 17 caliber necks if I choose to deprime before I tumble using either walnut and NUFinish or the wet SS media.

markm

11-13-13, 11:02

markm

11-13-13, 11:06

If I had three five gallons buckets of brass I would find someone with a 650, hooked up with a case feeder and knock 'em out. No way would I do that many on a single stage. That is probably right on 10,000+ cases.

My guesstimate is that 5 gal = about 5000 pieces of 223. I probably have 12 gallons in rotation. But I just pull and prep it in Thumler load batches which is 130-150 pieces at at time. Trying to run gallons of brass through any given stage of prep all at once will certainly crap the most enthusiastic loader out.

GLShooter

11-13-13, 11:07

In AZ, the humidity is low... so 15 minutes in walnut, and I'm dry.... and the walnut doens't retain much moisture. If I was somewhere humid, that might not work for me. ??? Also... our water is hard as hell here. I'd probably end up with hard water build up and residue on/in the brass. :(

As far as the LEE... I rairly get the anvil and cup coming apart.

Yes to AZ weather. On thewet I use a bit of LemonShine but I also have a water treatment system here in Phoenix. I found the trick to not having the brass tarnish after cleaning in wet was to towel dry them before putting them out in the sun. I also learned that three hours on a July day in Phoenix will ruin the brass as it anneals completely..............:meeting:

My walnut stuff will suck the moisture off cases in a hurry if I want to go that route too. I run a pair of the big Dillons so the small amount tyou get out of a SS wet set up is swallowed by that huge capacity.

Greg

markm

11-13-13, 11:16

Speaking of annealing.... sometimes with .308, I'll just go straight from RINSE to Annealment and that step will dry the brass. That saves a lot of time.

I don't anneal .223 though... That's a whole different debate though.

bigedp51

11-13-13, 11:21

How does the web thickness cause the primer pocket to enlarge? I can't seem to figure how that would work. I can see the flash hole getting larger but not the side walls of the primer pocket. Especially with just one firing.

Below is an exaggerated image of the effects of over pressure at the cartridge base and brass flowing. The flash hole web area adds strength and reinforces the base of the case. Add this to the soft brass in the base of Federal cases and the primer pocket expands on the first firing. As you can see the base of the case is unsupported and the flash hole and primer pocket can expand on firing if not made properly and of the correct harness.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/flow_zps2b838d87.gif

The web is checked with a 2 inch rod inserted inside the case, the vernier calipers are zeroed with the rod in the vernier caliper. The measurement you see below tells you how thick the flash hole web is, by doing this you can cull the cases before doing ANY prep work to the case. Again this photo is from AR15.com and posted by the reloading moderator.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/webthickness_zps4dff0525.jpg

The problem dates back to the Viet Nam War and commercial contract ammunition made for the military.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Casehardness-a_zps14dbe0fd.jpg

The military set milspec requirements for its cartridge cases to prevent this problem.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/556hard-a_zps7570e6b0.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/hardness-a_zps8d54ad66.jpg

The Federal cases below are not made at Lake City, they do not have the NATO symbol stamped on their base and are made of softer brass. The primer pocket should not expand on the first firing and stretch beyond limits.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/federal556_zps8997eff9.jpg

The type of AR15 you have and the port pressure has a great effect on the primers popping out of loose primer pockets. And again this whole subject is covered in great depth at AR15.com where its not considered a "OBSESSION". And there is a reason why I have all these photos to put in my postings.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/223plot_zps09ed0f79.jpg

All the cases below are once fired Remington fired at the same time as the Federal by our local police and SWAT teams. Not one Remington case and no more the 5 LC cases had over sized primer pockets, and Federal has a soft brass problem.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/halfdone_zps8557fc4b.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/bucketsofbrass_zps6927af18.jpg

FloridaWoodsman

11-13-13, 13:21

I'm another user of the Lee Universal decapper. I like to clean everything, including the primer pocket, before re-sizing. That way, grit is not getting into the shaping die.
I do cleaning with a Harbor Freight ultrasonic and LemiShine.
Fortunately, I read the forums extensively before getting into reloading, so I knew to avoid Federal brass.
I avoid crimping issues by either buying new ammo without crimp or buying recycled brass that has already had the crimp removed. Even if the crimp has been removed for me, I still follow up with a pocket reamer to get the depth perfect.

markm

11-13-13, 13:40

The only complaint I have with some of the relatively recent variants of the FC brass is the pseudo crimp that's on it. It's just enough that you don't need to remove it 99% of the time, but that 1% means you have to set it aside in the middle of the priming session, remove it, then get back to priming.

Other than that, I toss FC right in with everything else exept PMP and small font PMC (not the Bronze ammo). Those cases have significantly lower capacity... so much that you can see it when you charge the case.

Ironman8

11-13-13, 13:46

For those that use the Hornady Pocket Reamer chucked in a drill, do you find that you can easily take too much off and widen the primer pocket too much? Or is it relatively forgiving in that regard?

As I mentioned above, my Super Swager doesn't take out the crimp uniformly, so I'll end up with half the mouth crimp still there to catch on a primer as it's being seated...

markm

11-13-13, 13:51

For those that use the Hornady Pocket Reamer chucked in a drill, do you find that you can easily take too much off and widen the primer pocket too much? Or is it relatively forgiving in that regard?

The Hornady bottoms out in the pocket. It's self limiting. As long as you cut relatively straight, you're good.

I've never ruined a primer pocket. Someone here or on ARF tried to wonk a pocket up by cutting crooked and claimed it was still a serviceable piece of brass. I can't find it in my heart to intentionally do bad work. ;)

Ironman8

11-13-13, 14:14

Thanks Mark, sounds good! I can't argue with a cheaper method that works BETTER!

Anybody want a Super Swager? ;)

tb-av

11-13-13, 14:14

The web is checked with a 2 inch rod inserted inside the case, the vernier calipers are zeroed with the rod in the vernier caliper. The measurement you see below tells you how thick the flash hole web is, by doing this you can cull the cases before doing ANY prep work to the case.

So if I'm reading correctly you want that measurement in the .18x range? The measurement equals the web+primer pocket depth. If the depth is nominally .110... you look for .180 measurement?

The Federal cases below are not made at Lake City, they do not have the NATO symbol stamped on their base and are made of softer brass. The primer pocket should not expand on the first firing and stretch beyond limits.

By that you mean the brown box Federal will expand but NATO stamped will not? Just want to be sure I'm following you.

markm

11-13-13, 14:35

I've read... but can't provide a link to this, as it's really industry insider info, that ALL American produced brass start with the same cups from the same supplier. X-ray spectrometry analysis tends to show variances in the element makeup of brass from WIN/FED/REM etc. So???

The draws vary from maker to maker. And what makes the hardness differnent is the amount of work hardening. I've had some 06 LC brass that feels like you could cut diamonds with it when removing the crimp.

I tend to think that just based off of the mild crimp and simple head stamp on any given L C X X case head leaves it slightly softer than a dimpled, NATO cross head stamp... and Thus allows more expansion from the brutal 556 pressure load.

strider51

11-13-13, 16:20

This thread is a great source of information. Thank you all for your insights.

NTIM: I actually cancelled the alum. Lee anniversary press and ordered a turret cast / steel (personal preference). I need to build a "decapping anvil", nice setup.

bigedp51

11-13-13, 16:38

and Thus allows more expansion from the brutal 556 pressure load.

Why do you call 5.56 a brutal pressure load, both the .223 and 5.56 are loaded to 52,000 cup, 55,000 psi transducer or 62,000 CIP the same as NATO EPVAT testing. The only difference is the throat length but when tested in their corresponding chambers the pressures are the same.

Below are the milspec pressure test requirements for civilian military contract ammunition.

MIL-C-9963F
15 October 1976
SUPERSEDING
MIL-C-9963E
12 May 1970

MILITARY SPECIFICATION
CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, BALL, M193

3.7 Chamber pressure.

3.7.1 Measurement by copper-crush cylinder.-The average chamber pressure of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70° ± 2°F, shall not exceed 52,000 pounds per square inch (PSI). The average chamber pressure plus three standard deviations of chamber pressure shall not exceed 58,000 PSI.

3.7.2 Measurement by piezoelectric transducer.-The average chamber
pressure of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70° ± 2°F, shall not
exceed 55,000 PSI. The average chamber pressure plus three standard
deviations of chamber pressure shall not exceed 61,000 PSI.

The M855 round is loaded to the same pressures as M193, 55,000 psi.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/PagesfromTM43-0001-27_CHG-2a_zps8ca7aaa4.jpg

eperk

12-10-13, 14:21

Take it to PM's please.
It's gotten really old, really quick.

On the opposite side of the coin, I have a bunch of LC brass with a strange crimp.
There are 4 crimps around the primer.
I swag the pockets out with a RCBS bench mounted swagger, but the pockets still won't take a new primer without damaging the primer.
I bought a couple of cases of PPU M193 back when they were less than $300, they have got very tight pockets too.
I have to separate these and ream the pockets by hand.
Poly, I have a lot of the same brass. I also tried the same swager with the same results. I ordered an RCBS military decrimper, fixed the problem.
P.S., It's just my opinion but I think Bigedp51 needs to take his big ass back to TOS. But that's just me.

markm

12-11-13, 07:19

P.S., It's just my opinion but I think Bigedp51 needs to take his big ass back to TOS. But that's just me.

Agreed. One problem poster in this whole forum and it's turning into the ARFcom circus.

bigedp51

12-11-13, 15:01

Agreed. One problem poster in this whole forum and it's turning into the ARFcom circus.

and Thus allows more expansion from the brutal 556 pressure load.

What does ARFcom have to do with a "brutal 556 pressure load" and the fact you edited your posting removing your quoat above after you realized you were wrong.

What does ARFcom have to do with MIL-C-9963F and pressure testing standards?

What does ARFcom have to do with TM 43-0001-27 and chamber pressures listed there?

The only "circus" was your "brutal 556 pressure" statement you deleted from your posting to cover your ass and your bad information. Over 17,000 post here and you don't understand the American SAAMI copper crusher method and the transducer method differences or the fact that the European CIP measures chamber pressure at the case mouth and the pressures read higher.

And now to cover your mistake you join in a circle jerk with your back slapping buddies trying to say the information I posted is incorrect.

If you and your buddies got kicked out of AR15.COM it was because you violated the rules.

The only "circus" we have here are the clowns hiding behind different screen names pretending to be something they are not. "BUT" your clown makeup never changes, and the real problem is many of you can't take the "brutal pressure" of the correct information so you revert to insults.

You "clowns" carry on.
And have a nice day.

Below are the Sierra (non-ARFCOM) "brutal pressure" reloading differences between a bolt action .223 and AR15 service rifle loads.

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223rembolt.pdf

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf

And some "MORE" brutal facts that didn't come from ARFCOM.

5.56 vs .223 – What You Know May Be Wrong
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

In closing my Savage .223 has a longer throat than any of my AR15 rifles do, and the European CIP considers the .223 and the 5.56 to be the same cartridge and pressure. (and the European CIP isn't a ARFCOM member) ;)

Ryno12

12-11-13, 17:08

What does ARFcom have to do with a "brutal 556 pressure load" and the fact you edited your posting removing your quoat above after you realized you were wrong.

What does ARFcom have to do with MIL-C-9963F and pressure testing standards?

What does ARFcom have to do with TM 43-0001-27 and chamber pressures listed there?

The only "circus" was your "brutal 556 pressure" statement you deleted from your posting to cover your ass and your bad information. Over 17,000 post here and you don't understand the American SAAMI copper crusher method and the transducer method differences or the fact that the European CIP measures chamber pressure at the case mouth and the pressures read higher.

And now to cover your mistake you join in a circle jerk with your back slapping buddies trying to say the information I posted is incorrect.

If you and your buddies got kicked out of AR15.COM it was because you violated the rules.

The only "circus" we have here are the clowns hiding behind different screen names pretending to be something they are not. "BUT" your clown makeup never changes, and the real problem is many of you can't take the "brutal pressure" of the correct information so you revert to insults.

You "clowns" carry on.
And have a nice day.

Below are the Sierra (non-ARFCOM) "brutal pressure" reloading differences between a bolt action .223 and AR15 service rifle loads.

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223rembolt.pdf

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf

And some "MORE" brutal facts that didn't come from ARFCOM.

5.56 vs .223 – What You Know May Be Wrong
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

In closing my Savage .223 has a longer throat than any of my AR15 rifles do, and the European CIP considers the .223 and the 5.56 to be the same cartridge and pressure. (and the European CIP isn't a ARFCOM member) ;)

I think you owe markm an apology. The quote you keep claiming he edited out is still there.

I also think most members here could do without your continuous name-calling & insults. Not sure anyone would care if you decided to leave peacefully & never post here again... but I could be wrong.

Sent via Tapatalk

eperk

12-11-13, 17:25

I think you owe markm an apology. The quote you keep claiming he edited out is still there.

I also think most members here could do without your continuous name-calling & insults. Not sure anyone would care if you decided to leave peacefully & never post here again... but I could be wrong.

Sent via Tapatalk I respectfully disagree Ryno. We need a few guys like bigedp51 here to show the newer members what a troll looks like when he sneaks over here from another site. As long as he's recognized for what he is, and nobody takes his reloading advice seriously, he can actually be an example to the newer members on what and who to avoid.