View Full Version : Fulton Armory M14 or POF 308
I can't decide on what my next boom stick will be. I have narrowed it down to a POF in 308 or a Fulton Armory M14. I've heard mixed reviews about the POF 308 rifle and generally good reviews about the Fulton Armory M14 is a EBR chassis. Any thoughts on what would be the better rifle? Cost and weight isn't a factor. Looking for something that is reliable and accurate.
Why not look at a LMT MWS? That will be more reliable and more accurate than your choices. The POF and the M1A are not very good examples of either.
honestly, it just comes down to aesthetics. I like the look and feel of a M14 but the POF appeals to me in very much the same way. I checkout the LMT but it didn't spark anything in me. I am the same way with handguns, I love the 1911 and Model 29 series but I know there are better guns out there such as Glocks or HK USP. Just personal preference I guess.
The POF has a certain "visual balance" to it that attracts me in the same way a 1911 does...if that makes any sense. The M14 just has a classic styling that simple looks amazing. My only question is which one should I pick.
If I was a reasonable man, which I'm not, I would have simply picked a good bolt action 308 and be done with it.
MountainRaven
11-12-13, 23:30
POF has worked hard to earn their nickname of POFS.
Of the two, go with the Fulton.
POF has worked hard to earn their nickname of POFS.
Of the two, go with the Fulton.
Are you speaking from first hand experience or just what you heard on the internet? I want to make sure I'm making an informed purchase and not one based on internet hearsay.
I would pass on both.
LMT MWS, FN SCAR, KAC SR-25.
LMT MWS
SR25
Thanks for all the replies. I think between the two, the Fulton Armory might be the ticket.
I had considered the SR25 but decided not too as I don't see the "value" in what they are offering for their price point even though the M14 EBR by Fulton Armory is similarly priced.
I had considered the SCAR but again, passed on it as I'm familiar with the the M14 and AR platforms. I have enough accessories and extra parts to make me wants to stay with those two.
Thanks for all the replies. I think between the two, the Fulton Armory might be the ticket.
I had considered the SR25 but decided not too as I don't see the "value" in what they are offering for their price point even though the M14 EBR by Fulton Armory is similarly priced.
I had considered the SCAR but again, passed on it as I'm familiar with the the M14 and AR platforms. I have enough accessories and extra parts to make me wants to stay with those two.
Exactly what "value" do you see in a Fulton Armory M1A over an SR-25?
Have you ever researched anything about the SR-25?
Its just personal preferences.
As for "researching" the SR-25. I was in 2-9 INF, 1HBCT, 2ID at Camp Casey when they had their M14 in the "Crazy Horse" configuration replaced IOT serve in a sniper/DSM role (the Battalion XO/S3/SGM could never figure out how to use them). I preferred the M14.
MountainRaven
11-13-13, 09:37
Are you speaking from first hand experience or just what you heard on the internet? I want to make sure I'm making an informed purchase and not one based on internet hearsay.
Every human being I have ever talked to who has first-hand experience with them.
I have never met anyone who has used or owned a POF and been happy with it or its performance. And I have met plenty of people who have used DPMSs and Bushmasters without issue.
caelumatra
11-13-13, 09:42
From everything I've read you will spend some more money getting the M14 up to where it can be as accurate as a new AR308. The guys on Snipers Hide seem to be really fond of POF. I could be wrong but I think GA Precision uses POF uppers and lowers in their GAP10. I think that's the only POF parts they use though. My limited experience with the M14 is my good friends Springfield Armory M1A which was a very problematic gun. Sights fall apart while shooting, complete unreliability of the action and only decent accuracy. All of that tied into the fact that nothing modern is designed to work by default with the gun. Its all afterthoughts where the AR platform has evolved and increased its modularity.
I did a quick google of FA m14 and found this. Quite a few recommendations inside of, they claim, better rifles than FA. And just a quick glance, they're also all cheaper than the FA
http://m14forum.com/m14/99050-fulton-armory-m14-scout.html
After shooting my friends M1a I decided to build an AR308. MaTen + Noveske and it shoots extremely well. It also cost less than all of the weapons above and empty and without the scope weighs I think 9.5 pounds. According to wikipedia the original m14 weighed 9.2 pounds.
Failure2Stop
11-13-13, 09:57
I vastly prefer the AR based platforms over the M14 based platforms for user interface, especially with regard to optics mounting.
This comes from a guy that used to hold the M14 in high esteem.
If this is purely a visual thing, get whatever you are happy with spending the money on.
I would pass on both, LMT MWS, FN SCAR, KAC SR-25.
This
And to echo Failure mounting optics to an M14 can be a real pain by comparison
I have an LMT and a POF I have had issues with neither one but the LMT is the first one I reach for
I would pass on both.
LMT MWS, FN SCAR, KAC SR-25.
I would add HK MR762 to this list as well.......If you can afford the KAC you can certainly afford the HK.
Pof is my go to rifle I have a m21 ..I like the fact that its well rounded..I had my pof for threes and its going strong.
I would add HK MR762 to this list as well.......If you can afford the KAC you can certainly afford the HK.
proprietary mags that are expensive and hard to find is why i dont like this platform. I have shot them and they are very nice guns, although heavier than I would like.
But what you could get out of an LMT or SCAR (with a Handl lower SR25 patterned mag compatable) or even the newer SIG 716 has to take precedence over the HK IMO
unless you are an HK nut then by all means bang it out, but like all things HK your gonna pay
and the $4000+ retail can make quite the AR-10 with decent optics
I am an 800 lb. Luddite. No one even of sound reason has been able to drag me into the 21st century where the M14/M1a is concerned. Today, I prefer the M4 platform because I am old, fat and tired and it just fits me better. I kept my M1a, but it is an issue of logistics where parts and magazines are concerned and an unwillingness at this point to rearm and refit to a more modern platform.
If you want an M1a and are willing to pay for it, you have a couple of options. First, look for and buy a pre-1994 Springfield that has all GI parts on a Springfield receiver. That is the rifle that you have hinted at as your rifle of choice. Second, purchase an LRB forged receiver and have Smith enterprises assemble an all GI configuration on the LRB receiver.
The second option will be expensive. GI parts are difficult to find and expensive to acquire. A forged receiver and GI parts are as close to an issued M14 as you will find in the civilian market.
Springfield Armory had a lifetime guarantee on their M1a rifles. I haven't looked at one in several years so can not say this is still true. If it is, buy an SA M1a and shoot it until it breaks. When it breaks, send it to SA for repair.
Were I looking for a 7.62x51 platform today, I would go with the KAC first and then the LMT. There are not any rifles of that type that I know of that are superior in quality to those two.
Fulton Armory, worth the wait!! my son has a Garand made by them and it's great!!
So I had a similar question myself (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?141286-Unhappy-with-my-M1A ) My situation was a Troy stock not a EBR, but the issues remain the same. The M1A with an aftermarket stock has many more points of Failure causing both diminished accuracy and reliability; for example the screws of the stock loosening. After owning an M1A for a while I think the best logic to apply is K.I.S.S, the M4 platform does this very well.
I to bought a M1A for the cool look factor and to be different but I sure wish I had something that was truly more accurate and reliable instead of different. Every time I go to the range I leave frustrated that it isn't as accurate as I want. These are my experiences and opinions not hard facts. hope this helps
Dan
proprietary mags that are expensive and hard to find is why i dont like this platform. I have shot them and they are very nice guns, although heavier than I would like.
But what you could get out of an LMT or SCAR (with a Handl lower SR25 patterned mag compatable) or even the newer SIG 716 has to take precedence over the HK IMO
unless you are an HK nut then by all means bang it out, but like all things HK your gonna pay
and the $4000+ retail can make quite the AR-10 with decent optics
Yep, you are certainly going to pay, but then the MR works all the time not just some of the time like the SR25. Proprietary, expensive mags don't bother me in the least if they work. You haven't looked at KAC prices lately have you?
Yep, you are certainly going to pay, but then the MR works all the time not just some of the time like the SR25. Proprietary, expensive mags don't bother me in the least if they work. You haven't looked at KAC prices lately have you?
Care to elaborate on the SR-25 working some of the time?
specopsscout
11-17-13, 19:43
I Have a POF P308 Recon 16". It's got 860 trouble free rounds down the pipe to this point. I am very happy with mine...
MountainRaven
11-17-13, 21:33
Yep, you are certainly going to pay, but then the MR works all the time not just some of the time like the SR25. Proprietary, expensive mags don't bother me in the least if they work. You haven't looked at KAC prices lately have you?
He never said anything about anything Knight's.
That being said, Vickers has positive things to say about the current production SR-25s. And to my knowledge hasn't said anything about the H&K.
Hey all, thanks for all the input and suggestions.
I think I'll be going with the Fulton.
I already have a Fulton M14/M1A that has been dead nuts reliable and accurate. My springfield M1A with a basset mount and VLTOR stock is more accurate than me. The only issue I have had with either is Korean-copy M14 magazines. Outside of that, I rarely remove them from the stock and clean the gas port, bolt, barrel routinely.
The AR10 platform is easier on one's wallet, more accurate and very reliable but it reminds me of the Nissan Skyline or Honda S2000 of 308 rifles. It is nice, it performs the job well but in the end I don't really care and rather have a 1968 Dodge Charger much in the same way I understand that a Glock is more reasonable choice than a 1911 but that hasn't stopped me from acquiring a dozen 1911 over the years.
Also, add to the fact I have a huge supply of M14 magazines, extra stocks, and the like..and I don't see much of a reason to go with a AR10. Not to mention, there is something nice about showing up to a range or three gun match and be the only guy rocking the old girl.
Also, most AR10 I see have 16" barrels. Yes, you can get one with a longer barrel but most of the ones I see marketed do indeed have 16" barrels. 308 out of a 16" barrel isn't too impressive as far as velocity is concerned. I could always opt for a 18 or 20 barrel AR10 but those rifles seem to always look....lanky...dorky...I don't know the word I'm looking for it but it doesn't seem "right" if that makes sense. An old issue of American Rifleman actually compared 16" 18" 22" barrels with 308 and the results cleared up a lot of misconceptions about how they would perform. Sorry, don't have the issue in front of me at the moment.
Any ways, thanks for all the suggestions
caelumatra
11-18-13, 08:47
In response to this post about barrel length, I'll just leave this here.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/10/daniel-zimmerman/the-truth-about-barrel-length-muzzle-velocity-and-accuracy/
But your other notes about having a host of accessories for the M1A is valid and understandable IMO. I'd be hard pressed to get into another system when I'd already spent buckets on mags and the like. Do you win the matches with your M1A?
Care to elaborate on the SR-25 working some of the time?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rXiVFMRMchY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DrXiVFMRMchY
To be crystal clear, I have no direct experience with the SR25, however there have been a number of fairly well documented issues with the platform as issued. My comment was not referring to their current lineup. Chris's comments may have been centered around bolt vs. Semi but the words he chose were interesting.
Edit: [RIP Chief Kyle]
In response to this post about barrel length, I'll just leave this here.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/10/daniel-zimmerman/the-truth-about-barrel-length-muzzle-velocity-and-accuracy/
But your other notes about having a host of accessories for the M1A is valid and understandable IMO. I'd be hard pressed to get into another system when I'd already spent buckets on mags and the like. Do you win the matches with your M1A?
fascinating. Thanks for the link. I wish I could find the American Rifleman article in order to reference its information. All I am finding thus far is information regarding the Ruger gunsite rifle which isn't exactly what I'm looking for. I still feel a bit better with a 22" barrel as opposed to a 16" based on the data at the link, even though it only references a 26" barrel. Some of the comments are very enlightening but I feel the author makes a few bold assumptions regarding velocity. I guess it all comes down to what you really want your rifle to do and at what ranges. For me, a 16" 308 makes me think that perhaps 300BLK in a 16" barrel would make more sense. Open to any suggestions, thoughts or articles that might change that point of view.
MountainRaven
11-18-13, 10:52
The 2010 International Sniper Competition was won by a team rocking one 18" LaRue OBR and one 16" LaRue OBR. This while going up against teams with semi-auto 5.56s, bolt action and semi-auto 7.62x51/308s, bolt 300 Win Mags and 338 Lapuas, &c.
Kevin Boland (and others) who have "seen the elephant" have stated (here and elsewhere) that 16" semi-auto 7.62x51/308s are doing everything that the end-users need a semi-auto 7.62x51/308 to do. This includes the UK's rather large order for the LMT MWS with 16" barrels.
Todd Hoddnet has stated a preference for 20" barrels on bolt guns. But as short a barrel as you can get (or words to that effect) in the semi-autos.
The 2010 International Sniper Competition was won by a team rocking one 18" LaRue OBR and one 16" LaRue OBR. This while going up against teams with semi-auto 5.56s, bolt action and semi-auto 7.62x51/308s, bolt 300 Win Mags and 338 Lapuas, &c.
Kevin Boland (and others) who have "seen the elephant" have stated (here and elsewhere) that 16" semi-auto 7.62x51/308s are doing everything that the end-users need a semi-auto 7.62x51/308 to do. This includes the UK's rather large order for the LMT MWS with 16" barrels.
Todd Hoddnet has stated a preference for 20" barrels on bolt guns. But as short a barrel as you can get (or words to that effect) in the semi-autos.
Any sources why Todd Hoddnet stated to go short with semi-autos? I can understand a 20" for a bolt but the semi-auto recommendation has me confused.
I did not know that about the 2010 International Sniper Competition, I definitely need to read up on this as it is slowly changing what I thought I knew.
I have no personal experience with the POF - so I won't comment on that rifle.
I do have experience with the Fulton Armory M14 Bush Rifle (18.5”) – I have one and it’s a great rifle. I am still using the iron sights and within reasonable distances I can hit my target. I may add a scope at a later date – I’m still working on building up my skills with the fundamentals.
It’s very reliable and it’s quite accurate.
I actually like the ergonomics. It points well and feels good to me. I do not hesitate to recommend it.
HK I did not want you to get the impression I did not like the HK417, I absolutely love the gun (I workout so the weight is NBD) but I think with the prices involved cant be overlooked even though the OP said cost wasn't an issue
While the HK mags are expensive they do not explode like a f1 car hitting a wall when dropped on the shoot house floor like a FN mk17 mag
so yes they work but they damn well better for $80-90
MountainRaven
11-18-13, 15:33
Any sources why Todd Hoddnet stated to go short with semi-autos? I can understand a 20" for a bolt but the semi-auto recommendation has me confused.
I did not know that about the 2010 International Sniper Competition, I definitely need to read up on this as it is slowly changing what I thought I knew.
LaRue has been shipping DVDs of the competition with some of the larger orders of their products. I think I've had two of them… gave one away and kept the other one (although I don't need it and should probably give it away, too).
As for the short=better in an auto, I believe Hoddnet's stated opinion was that a bolt action precision rifle is a one-trick pony while a semi-auto precision rifle can be useful up close and to go with the shorter barrel to make it easier to maneuver in tight spaces and manage on the move.
HK I did not want you to get the impression I did not like the HK417, I absolutely love the gun (I workout so the weight is NBD) but I think with the prices involved cant be overlooked even though the OP said cost wasn't an issue
While the HK mags are expensive they do not explode like a f1 car hitting a wall when dropped on the shoot house floor like a FN mk17 mag
so yes they work but they damn well better for $80-90
No harm no foul man! I don't take this stuff personally [most of the time :)]. Everyone likes different stuff for different reasons......and everyone's use and priorities are different. I just throw out what I factor into my decision making tree which suits me.....Not everyone will see things exactly the same which is great. If everyone saw everything the same we'd have exaclty ONE company building rifles which would be extremely boring.
Bolt_Overide
11-19-13, 11:18
Its your money, spend it where you like. If it were me, I'd be buying another SR-25 before either of those two.
Its your money, spend it where you like. If it were me, I'd be buying another SR-25 before either of those two.
Well we will see how it goes. So far, one unanswered email after dropping over $7k. As a return customer, I would think they would get back in contact with me in a timely fashion and not be "bothered" by my questions. They got till tomorrow then I'm canceling the order. Is customer service really that hard? If this falls through I'm just going with the recommendations that have been put forth already. :mad:
Day 2....nothing heard yet from Fulton Armory.....
Day 2....finally called. After getting through a rather rude female I finally got with a guy who was more than helpful and seemed friendly. He even gave me a good price. Can't wait to shoot this bad boy! My other Fulton was flawless so this I am VERY excited to try out this new build.
The 2010 International Sniper Competition was won by a team rocking one 18" LaRue OBR and one 16" LaRue OBR. This while going up against teams with semi-auto 5.56s, bolt action and semi-auto 7.62x51/308s, bolt 300 Win Mags and 338 Lapuas, &c.
Kevin Boland (and others) who have "seen the elephant" have stated (here and elsewhere) that 16" semi-auto 7.62x51/308s are doing everything that the end-users need a semi-auto 7.62x51/308 to do. This includes the UK's rather large order for the LMT MWS with 16" barrels.
Todd Hoddnet has stated a preference for 20" barrels on bolt guns. But as short a barrel as you can get (or words to that effect) in the semi-autos.
I still haven't found anything confirming usage of LaRue OBR at the International Sniper Competition other than what was stated by Mr.LaRue himself so I remain skeptical.
As for "seen the elephant", I have done more research and haven't come up with anything that states 16" barreled semi-auto 7.62x51/308 is doing everything that needs to be done as compared to a 22" barrels. However I did come across an interesting article in Rifle Shooter magazine, January/February 2013, Volume 15, Issue 1, entitled "Barrels & Ballistics" by Layne Simpson on page 44. In it ,the author states that 308 isn't bad from a 20" barrel but adding two more inches (bringing it to 22") increases the velocity enough to make up for the additional ounces. This of course is the exact same conclusion the Army arrived at when it went with a 22" for the M14. A rifle, that was built around the 7.62x51 cartridge. Some may argue that so was the AR series as the original was designed around the 7.62x51 also, however it wasn't chosen over the M14. Some may say this is due the Army being "hardheaded" to go away from John C. Garand's design, maybe that's true.... I wasn't there.
I've emailed the author and hope to hear back to get a little bit more information on what sources/testing he used but thus far it matches up everything that the Army and my bible "Understanding Firearms Ballistics 5th edition" has come up with.
All to often I hear people say "advances in ammunition" or "advances in smokeless powder" without quoting anything! Just an anonymous voice on the internet with no real sources to back up anything they say. I strongly recommend anyone interested in a deeper understanding of firearms to read Understanding Firearm Ballistics Paperback – June 1, 2005 by Robert A. Rinker, that book was short of LIFE CHANGING. I have the 5th edition but apparently a 6th edition is out now.
Not trying to knock anyone here but I've heard so many arguments about why 14.5" barrel on a 5.56 is better than a 20" barrel or a 16" barrel for .308 is acceptable as compared to a 22" barrel it has left me scratching my head as to why things have changed so much. I keep hearing people repeat the same lines of "advanced in smokeless powder" as if it was true I decided to do a little research for myself. I purchased some very old reloading manuals from around the late sixties and compared them to today. I hadn't noticed much of a difference at all except in a few cases. I then did what some considered "stupid" and tried out some loads. I heard everything, "Your gun will blow up!". I made a few calls to different smokeless powder manufacturers to try to get the real scoop on the changes and all I heard was some young kid quoting "advanced in smokeless power" with no documentation to back it up. It was only after talking to an individual who actually KNEW about chemistry that I was straightened out. The long and the short of it is that "liability" in some cases explained the WHY some loads had been reduced. What one gun could handle may make another receiver crack and vice versa.
I think I will stick with the M14 with a 22" barrel as my preferred platform for launching the 308. I often hear "optics are a pain to mount" yet I have never found this the case. Rock solid mounts have been around since the Vietnam war, only recently have M14 shooters been saved from the chore of bedding, rebedding, or replacing USGI fiberglass stocks to maintain accuracy. With the SAGE stock, that need has all but disappeared completely.
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