View Full Version : Help: Upper build...do it myself or farm it out
I have 14.5" DD lightweight upper with FSB
I recently bought an MI Gen 2 SS in 12"....I considered centurion CMR, Noveske NSR, and the soon to be BCM keymod, but seeing that BCM sells their uppers with MI rails that was endorsement enough for me and thought I'd give it a whirl as I want to keep this upper light
will need to perm an 18 tooth black out for my AAC M4-1000 and that is definitely getting farmed out to be done right (your recommendations please on who to send it to for that)
Here's the real question.
Should I just farm this whole upper change to a reputable shop to do it right, or can a guy like myself with basic everyday guy mechanical skills get the majority of he job done. I checked with ADCO which is the only place I've had a complete upper done in the past and $173 seems pretty steep for something that I think I could complete on my own (except the pin/weld).
I have a dremmel and have access to a grinder and can get my hands on a torque wrench.
I don't want to foul anything up, but I'm thinking that it can't be too hard to remove the FSB with a set of punches, grind it down into a low pro FSB that the rail can fit over and then install the rail (how do I make sure that it's properly aligned?)
Thanks for your input.
ADH
This is really a question only you can answer. It's a job that requires not only basic mechanical skill but patience, care, and persistence. The FSB pins can be stubborn. The gas tube can seem like it's welded to the FSB. If you get frustrated and go into gorilla mode expect bad things to happen.
In addition to the torque wrench you'll definitely need a barrel wrench and ideally something like a Gissele reaction rod or similar to hold the upper. At a bare minimum you'll need an upper receiver clamshell for your vise. If this is your first disassembly/FSB mod don't be surprised if the job take hours. Consider also that you are already paying for shipping and insurance both ways to ADCO and then decide.
Regarding the gas block alignment on the barrel you will find that it is dependent on the gas tube alignment in the upper receiver. If the BCG doesn't slide freely onto the gas tube then it ain't right.
ETA: Your FSB taper pins are drilled to ensure the FSB/gas tube is aligned. This assumes your upper was assembled correctly. If you reassemble and align the shaved FSB for the taper pin holes you should be good.
I recently mounted a Gissele rail on my LMT upper. It took far longer than I expected. I had to freeze my upper to break the barrel free from the upper receiver body because of the age of the assembly. On the upside, I really learned a lot. My mindset was that if I broke something that would be an educational cost. ;)
Adco does very good work. I had them shave an FSB and it looks great, as they also re-parkerize it. With that said, I've seen plenty of people cut/grind their own, and a quick coating of high-temp grill paint looks almost identical, and is nearly as durable.
I'm not sure where you get $173 from. Adco lists $38 for the shave, $50 for the disassembly/reassembly, and $30 for the pinning. That's $118 plus shipping costs. Since you have to send it off to have your muzzle device pinned anyways, the extra $88 to let Adco handle the whole project doesn't seem like a bad deal to me. Heck, you'd spend more than that on just a geissele reaction rod if you intend to do the work yourself.
TacticalMark
11-13-13, 21:34
If you have the proper tools to do it then I would go for it, If you feel that you can accomplish the task. If you don't it would be cheaper to have ADCO do it right the first time.
Thanks to all.
Some very good advice....basically not worth it o make the investment in the addition of a reaction rod (all else I have) unless I plan to keep building uppers myself.
for me it just helps to think it through by asking and then getting the feedback.
I think this is enough for me to make the decision.
Thanks again
ADH
regarding the $173 total from Adco...there is a $55 additional premium on the pinning when pinning an AAC suppressor mount.
The worse thing you can do is pin and weld a flash hider/ anything to the barrel.
The worse thing you can do is pin and weld a flash hider/ anything to the barrel.
definitely was not going to try that myself....and once considering that I have to farm that out it's kinda pointless to do the rest on my own if I need to make a comparable investment in additional tool(s)
I don't mean you doing it. I mean any pinned barrel.
definitely was not going to try that myself....and once considering that I have to farm that out it's kinda pointless to do the rest on my own if I need to make a comparable investment in additional tool(s)
The job is easy (if you know what you are doing). If you have NEVER messed with assembling an upper (and don't have anyone around to help you), I would advise you to pass on doing it yourself.
C4
Greenhead308
11-14-13, 13:17
I don't mean you doing it. I mean any pinned barrel.
How is the "worst thing you can do"? A lot of manufacturers offer factory pinned barrels. If it was a bad idea I don't think they would be doing it.
How is the "worst thing you can do"? A lot of manufacturers offer factory pinned barrels. If it was a bad idea I don't think they would be doing it.
I think they mean for a length reduction you are getting, which isn't really all that much in the scheme of things to many here, is that it limits you choices of muzzle devices and makes changing anything with the upper rather difficult to near impossible for many. Unless you are required by law to have a perm afixed muzzle device, or have great need for reduced length without NFAing the gun a 16 inch barrel is to many a better choice. I guess to make things simple, 16 inches mean that if you wish to change the muzzle device you can easily and without any major work, where if it is pinned and welded you are going to go through hell to do so.
Also, just to point out, there are a number of bad ideas out there that make companies a lot of money because people think they are good ideas. Hi-Point for example. Not saying a DD 14.5 is a Hi-point, but I see a lot of Hi-point get sold at gun stores, doesn't mean I would want to grab one for my kit.
At the end of the day it is your gun. If you want the 14.5 and the pinned and welded muzzle device go for it. I personally would not ,but again that is me and I am wiling to work with the extra length for less headache. Of course I don't build uppers, can assembly a lower just fine, but the upper is another story.
See the post by Kain. Hammer meets nail.
How is the "worst thing you can do"? A lot of manufacturers offer factory pinned barrels. If it was a bad idea I don't think they would be doing it.
how about another question?
ANy recommendations other than ADCO?
I contacted Weapon Outfitters and their price is well less than the $173 from ADCO which also does not include return shipping.....just curious...I brought up ADCO because I had used them a number of years ago for some work I wanted done.
Thanks for all the input
How is the "worst thing you can do"? A lot of manufacturers offer factory pinned barrels. If it was a bad idea I don't think they would be doing it.
Like IZ and KL stated, it is generally a poor idea to do. If you read through my posts over the years, I am 100% against pinned anything. Why? Because you are married to your rail, FSB/GB and MB/FH. This is a poor answer to non-existant problem.
Companies offer pinned barrels because people buy them. McDonalds also sells food (and people buy it).
C4
somehow my original question has turned into a discussion and/or debate on the worthiness of pinning muzzle devices to barrels....maybe we should just refer everyone to the previous thread(s) that have already debated/discussed this and keep this on topic. Not trying to degrade anyones input, but half the input of the thread now is reference/debate on pinning muzzle devices to barrels which is a minute part of my original question.
Bottom line for me and this build is that I want to keep this 14.5" upper and I don't want to have to go through the hassle of SBRing a lower for it. I want to be able to use my M4-1000 with this upper and I do not plan to ever go back to an 18 tooth AAC muzzle break because I did not care for one when I had it.
So with that being said FOR ME pinning the 18 tooth FH is worth it (costs a lot less than an SBR stamp). All the other input in the thread has convinced me that it's really not worth the investment of even buying a reaction rod. For its cost, on top of what else I'm looking at, I'm looking at a wash at best and a potential loss at worst.
Building an upper is not as easy as assembling a lower and staking a castle nut (as was previously mentioned). This is note worthy.
The potential loss here (regardless of how small/large that potential is) really isn't worth it for a single build. And, this is probably the best wisdom that can be shared from this thread IMO
I'd like to suggest a sticky where folks can find vendors, hopefully board members, who can facilitate upper builds such as I described in the original post. ADCO isn't even a board member to my knowledge, but I may be wrong on this
Again, not trying to flame anyone, but this thread is not going in the right direction....at least for what I intended.
somehow my original question has turned into a discussion and/or debate on the worthiness of pinning muzzle devices to barrels....maybe we should just refer everyone to the previous thread(s) that have already debated/discussed this and keep this on topic. Not trying to degrade anyones input, but half the input of the thread now is reference/debate on pinning muzzle devices to barrels which is a minute part of my original question.
Bottom line for me and this build is that I want to keep this 14.5" upper and I don't want to have to go through the hassle of SBRing a lower for it. I want to be able to use my M4-1000 with this upper and I do not plan to ever go back to an 18 tooth AAC muzzle break because I did not care for one when I had it.
So with that being said FOR ME pinning the 18 tooth FH is worth it (costs a lot less than an SBR stamp). All the other input in the thread has convinced me that it's really not worth the investment of even buying a reaction rod. For its cost, on top of what else I'm looking at, I'm looking at a wash at best and a potential loss at worst.
I will put my mentoring hat on for moment and see if I can help you make a wiser decision. You mention that you don't want to go the SBR way because of "hassle." Let's examine this for a moment. Since you would be doing a form 1 and not involving a C3 dealer, it really isn't that much of a hassle. On top of this, the amount of money you are looking at paying to get your upper pinned is NEARLY the cost of a tax stamp. With an SBR'd lower, you could have the flexibility of running several different length uppers.
Then let's talk about change. Once you pin your AAC, you cannot switch ANYTHING without removing it. At some point, you might want to change the rail or AAC comes out with new super awesome FH or MB that you want to go to. Now you are looking at another $100 to un-pin and re-pin your AAC and most likely will need to re-thread your barrels as the threads will be damaged.
So back to the question you need to ask yourself. Why a 14.5? Is the gun significantly lighter than a 16"? No. Is it more accurate than a 16" barrel? No. Is a 14.5" a lot easier to do room clearing with? No and with your suppressor on it, absolutely no! Does a 14.5" barrel look "cooler" than a 16" barrel? No and in fact, not one will know unless you tell them.
Building an upper is not as easy as assembling a lower and staking a castle nut (as was previously mentioned). This is note worthy.
The potential loss here (regardless of how small/large that potential is) really isn't worth it for a single build. And, this is probably the best wisdom that can be shared from this thread IMO
True. I see people screwing up uppers all the time.
I'd like to suggest a sticky where folks can find vendors, hopefully board members, who can facilitate upper builds such as I described in the original post. ADCO isn't even a board member to my knowledge, but I may be wrong on this
Again, not trying to flame anyone, but this thread is not going in the right direction....at least for what I intended.
There are lot of companies that do custom builds (including us) so that really isn't a problem. You will find the cost of a custom build MUCH cheaper if you buy all the components from the same dealer (less to no labor fees).
I understand that you don't like the way the thread went, but hopefully you are wiser now and will make more informed decisions.
Good luck.
C4
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