View Full Version : So I want a Inforce WML.
doubled561
11-20-13, 12:42
The question is, should I go with the momentary function or multi function. I will be running it on a 6920 at 12 o'clock on the troy delta rail in front of the FSP. I do run a thumb over grip, and I am wondering if holding the button down on the momentary function puts a damper on your shooting. Anyone with experience with either of these models please chime in and help me out.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-20-13, 16:48
I use the momentary on. Suppose I cant see any reason to have anything else.
I like having the constant on for admin tasks are probably 99% of the use any of my lights get, plus I wouldn't think the detriments of having a constant on would apply to most self-defense situations, unless you're in big trouble with multiple bad guys. That being said, every pro I've ever heard on the subject has said momentary for a WML.
MajorLonghorn
11-20-13, 23:55
I have a momentary version en route, so I'll comment on it soon after I receive it. I got it for $100, so I figured I'd check it out.
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I have 2 that ride at 12 o'clock and I'm very pleased. I'm about to buy a 3rd for the same. I also prefer the momentary only version. Murphy's Law says when u want it off, it will get clicked on if you use the multi version.
Wake, what admin tasks do you use weapon lights for that you'd want them to remain on for long periods of time?
I use and prefer the momentary switch the AR on a Thorntail mount at 10-11:00. I tried it on the 870/ Magpul fore end at 9:00 and didn't like it. One too many things to do cycling the pump. I am going to try an APL. I wish they would switch the WML like the APL. Press and hold for momentary, tap for on. Even better if it was high only tap on tap off. GH
doubled561
11-21-13, 19:27
Went ahead and pulled the trigger on the momentary Haley strategic partners version. Ill let you guys know what i think.
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MajorLonghorn
11-23-13, 22:22
Got my WML in yesterday. Originally I planned to mount it on my CX4 Storm, but I tried it on my POF P415 and I liked it there better. I switched from a VFG to an AFG to make it work better for me; I'm satisfied with the results.
I purchased the non-momentary model because it does momentary as well. If you push the switch and let go it stays on. If you hold it for more than a second or two, it does momentary. Best of both.
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I have 2 that ride at 12 o'clock and I'm very pleased. I'm about to buy a 3rd for the same. I also prefer the momentary only version. Murphy's Law says when u want it off, it will get clicked on if you use the multi version.
Wake, what admin tasks do you use weapon lights for that you'd want them to remain on for long periods of time?
You know when you put it that way...
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Rosco Benson
12-12-13, 12:26
With a momentary only light your light will go out when you reach to turn a door knob. It'll also go out if you need to key your mic to talk, dial 9-1-1 on a cell phone or whatever.
Rosco
With a momentary only light your light will go out when you reach to turn a door knob. It'll also go out if you need to key your mic to talk, dial 9-1-1 on a cell phone or whatever.
Rosco
Who teaches leaving the light on for long periods? I've not seen anyone advocate for having a light on when opening a door during a search with a weapon. That seems like it would make the bad guy's task much easier if he is inside waiting with a weapon. If you haven't taken any low light training from a reputable instructor, I'd encourage it. Weapon lights are generally intended for quick splashes of light. The only time I can think of leaving it on for more than a second or two is if the bad guy is directly in front of me, doesn't need to be shot, and I'm blinding him with it until he complies with our instructions.
Rosco Benson
12-12-13, 13:13
Who teaches leaving the light on for long periods? I've not seen anyone advocate for having a light on when opening a door during a search with a weapon. That seems like it would make the bad guy's task much easier if he is inside waiting with a weapon. If you haven't taken any low light training from a reputable instructor, I'd encourage it. Weapon lights are generally intended for quick splashes of light. The only time I can think of leaving it on for more than a second or two is if the bad guy is directly in front of me, doesn't need to be shot, and I'm blinding him with it until he complies with our instructions.
That "quick splash" stuff works fine on the range, where you know where the target is, and you are correct that using the light as briefly as is practical is wise. However, within an unfamiliar building you might not even know there was a door to open without lighting it up. As to blinding the bad guy until he complies, let's suppose he complies and he prones out. At some point you will need to dial a phone, use a radio, or similar to summon help. With the momentary only light, your light goes out when you do this (unless you have multiple tape switches all tangled around the weapon and since we're discussing the sleek little Inforce lights, I'm guessing not).
Having a "constant on" function doesn't mean you have to use the light excessively. It does mean that you can arrange to have the light on if you need to use your support hand AND light something up at the same time. I had this pointed out to me by Louis Awerbuck, who I consider to be quite reputable (but don't tell him).
Rosco
That "quick splash" stuff works fine on the range, where you know where the target is, and you are correct that using the light as briefly as is practical is wise. However, within an unfamiliar building you might not even know there was a door to open without lighting it up. As to blinding the bad guy until he complies, let's suppose he complies and he prones out. At some point you will need to dial a phone, use a radio, or similar to summon help. With the momentary only light, your light goes out when you do this (unless you have multiple tape switches all tangled around the weapon and since we're discussing the sleek little Inforce lights, I'm guessing not).
Having a "constant on" function doesn't mean you have to use the light excessively. It does mean that you can arrange to have the light on if you need to use your support hand AND light something up at the same time. I had this pointed out to me by Louis Awerbuck, who I consider to be quite reputable (but don't tell him).
Rosco
I suppose with the infinite number of scenarios, a person could encounter a situation where leaving the light on is desirable. But being in an environment where there is no ambient light is highly unlikely IMO. I don't need to keep him lit up to call - just need to see that his hands aren't moving. If he moves after I command him not to, he gets shot. If he is dumb enough to think my weapon light going off while I reach for a phone or mic is his time to reach for anything and that my weapon isn't still trained on him - well it will be a costly mistake for him.
Keeping a 200 - 500 lumen light turned on also signals my location to everyone short of the space shuttle and makes it very difficult to see movement outside the cone of light. If the bad guy has a partner or multiple partners I may never finish my phone/radio call.
I surely don't claim to be an expert and don't have the answer for every possible scenario. But if a constant on feature is desired/necessary, then I'd suggest it should be separated from the momentary switch. I'm not a fan of wires and tape switches, so for me I'll prefer a momentary only light. I've seen it and I've done it, where the splash of light is what the shooter wanted and under stress, the light is turned on. Personally I'd rather have it off when I wanted it on, than have it on when I wanted it off. YMMV.
texasgunhand
12-18-13, 23:03
You will be happy with the WML HSP light. Great price and nice and bright..El cid hits it on the head....
doubled561
12-18-13, 23:11
I'm extremely happy with it considering the only low light situation I will probably ever need it would be in home defense, where quick splashes will be all that is needed (due to my already existing mental map of my house).
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I prefer options. The non-momentary version can be used exactly the same way by just holding the button down. Plus, it gives you the option of keeping the light on if needed, as well as quick access to a strobe mode. If you know where to look you can get the non-IR version for <$100 shipped - the same price as the momentary only. I have 3 - all regular versions - all have been 100% reliable - learn the UI, it's not complicated. Train with it as you would anything else and the perceived downside of the extra modes will become a moot point. Momentary is momentary, why rob yourself of other options?
Is there now a HSP/200 lumen version with other than momentary-only switching?
I dunno specifically about HSP, but inforce does have a 200 lumen version with the programmable switch that does high, low, strobe and momentary. I bought mine here:
http://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/product/inforce-wml-white-light-multifunction-field-programmable/
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Solid light either way you go. Been running mine for months and love it!
Slybarman, thanks for the reply. I see now that Inforce is listing a full function WML on their website.
I suppose with the infinite number of scenarios, a person could encounter a situation where leaving the light on is desirable. But being in an environment where there is no ambient light is highly unlikely IMO. I don't need to keep him lit up to call - just need to see that his hands aren't moving. If he moves after I command him not to, he gets shot. If he is dumb enough to think my weapon light going off while I reach for a phone or mic is his time to reach for anything and that my weapon isn't still trained on him - well it will be a costly mistake for him.
Keeping a 200 - 500 lumen light turned on also signals my location to everyone short of the space shuttle and makes it very difficult to see movement outside the cone of light. If the bad guy has a partner or multiple partners I may never finish my phone/radio call.
I surely don't claim to be an expert and don't have the answer for every possible scenario. But if a constant on feature is desired/necessary, then I'd suggest it should be separated from the momentary switch. I'm not a fan of wires and tape switches, so for me I'll prefer a momentary only light. I've seen it and I've done it, where the splash of light is what the shooter wanted and under stress, the light is turned on. Personally I'd rather have it off when I wanted it on, than have it on when I wanted it off. YMMV.
El Cid, you're right, there are thousands of possible scenarios that could be argued all night. I think most homeowners picture a situation where an intruder cuts the power to their home before breaking in. The lone homeowner interdicts the perp, controls him, and now has him proned out at gunpoint. Giving up the light in order to manipulate a phone might encourage the perp to engage in rash behavior causing him to be shot, though still on the floor.
I believe you would agree that this could prove regrettable, and perhaps, indefensible in court; thus the wish to keep him bathed in a suitably bright beam.
Your points about becoming a lighthouse, and confusing controls are well taken. This is why IMO the best switches allow pressure to fire a light momentarily, and push harder to click on. That way you can trigger the light and then decide whether to douse it or lock it on without having to cycle through some program.
El Cid, you're right, there are thousands of possible scenarios that could be argued all night. I think most homeowners picture a situation where an intruder cuts the power to their home before breaking in. The lone homeowner interdicts the perp, controls him, and now has him proned out at gunpoint. Giving up the light in order to manipulate a phone might encourage the perp to engage in rash behavior causing him to be shot, though still on the floor.
I believe you would agree that this could prove regrettable, and perhaps, indefensible in court; thus the wish to keep him bathed in a suitably bright beam.
Your points about becoming a lighthouse, and confusing controls are well taken. This is why IMO the best switches allow pressure to fire a light momentarily, and push harder to click on. That way you can trigger the light and then decide whether to douse it or lock it on without having to cycle through some program.
The type of switching you desire (partial pressure for this or that) sounds great to the engineers who build lights and don't use them professionally. It works great in a classroom setting, or at the local gunstore counter... even in your home when doing rehearsals. The problem with them comes with the addition of stress. That can be the simple stress of competition or a shot timer. It can be the extreme stress of searching a residence and not knowing what's around the next corner - even more so for when someone is threatening/trying to kill you or someone else. Then factor in your hands may be sweaty, bloody... you may be wearing gloves... people often will overgrip under pressure...
The bottom line is that under stress even the best trained and practiced people make mistakes. It is VERY easy to click a weapon light "ON" when you wanted just a momentary flash, or vice versa. It happens all the time in training (I've personally seen it and I've had it happen to me). It was not by mistake that end users requested Inforce offer their WML in a momentary only version. These were not Airsofters asking for this - they were real world LEO's and military personnel. Do you believe it's an accident that the version of the WML with Mr Haley's name on it is the momentary only version?
Don't take my word for it. Go out and train hard. Take a night shooting course from a good instructor. I don't know your background, and won't bore you with mine. But try to trust me when I tell you there is a good reason for the lights being set up the way they are.
And regarding your scenario... I don't know how often burglars "cut the power" before breaking into a home. I certainly don't envision it happening that way, and while I don't work that violation... I have not once heard of a burglary where that was done. Cutting a phone line to kill the alarm? Yes. Power? No. It may happen, but even if it does you would have to live in a tomb to have no ambient lighting. Even with your weapon light off, I'd venture to suggest you can still see large items in your home such as furniture, doors, people. In the end, it's your home, your life - proceed how you think best. It's entirely possible you are a Tier 1 Tactical Ninja, but I would bet dollars to donuts you don't know what you don't know. That's not a slam - it's just that some folks don't realize that what works in their mind won't work in practice because they've not tested it.
The type of switching you desire (partial pressure for this or that) sounds great to the engineers who build lights and don't use them professionally. It works great in a classroom setting, or at the local gunstore counter... even in your home when doing rehearsals. The problem with them comes with the addition of stress. That can be the simple stress of competition or a shot timer. It can be the extreme stress of searching a residence and not knowing what's around the next corner - even more so for when someone is threatening/trying to kill you or someone else. Then factor in your hands may be sweaty, bloody... you may be wearing gloves... people often will overgrip under pressure...
The bottom line is that under stress even the best trained and practiced people make mistakes. It is VERY easy to click a weapon light "ON" when you wanted just a momentary flash, or vice versa. It happens all the time in training (I've personally seen it and I've had it happen to me). It was not by mistake that end users requested Inforce offer their WML in a momentary only version. These were not Airsofters asking for this - they were real world LEO's and military personnel. Do you believe it's an accident that the version of the WML with Mr Haley's name on it is the momentary only version?
Don't take my word for it. Go out and train hard. Take a night shooting course from a good instructor. I don't know your background, and won't bore you with mine. But try to trust me when I tell you there is a good reason for the lights being set up the way they are.
And regarding your scenario... I don't know how often burglars "cut the power" before breaking into a home. I certainly don't envision it happening that way, and while I don't work that violation... I have not once heard of a burglary where that was done. Cutting a phone line to kill the alarm? Yes. Power? No. It may happen, but even if it does you would have to live in a tomb to have no ambient lighting. Even with your weapon light off, I'd venture to suggest you can still see large items in your home such as furniture, doors, people. In the end, it's your home, your life - proceed how you think best. It's entirely possible you are a Tier 1 Tactical Ninja, but I would bet dollars to donuts you don't know what you don't know. That's not a slam - it's just that some folks don't realize that what works in their mind won't work in practice because they've not tested it.
You make valid points and perhaps justify re-evaluation of my performance criteria, but to address some specifics......
No, I don't believe it was an accident that the HSP WML is momentary only. I believed that Mr. Haley is ex-Military and spec'd his version to cater to LEO and Military personnel, who have very different goals and tactics in an armed confrontation than a property owner has when defending hearth and home. I want to send 'em packing, you guys need to apprehend or neutralize them. ( I'm assuming you are an LEO based on your words "I don't work that violation".)
Perhaps I should have been more specific when I used the term "home". We live out in the countryside, pretty isolated. Most properties out here have several outbuildings, pole barns,etc, spread across the land.
This was exactly the conversation at "the local gunstore". There have been several B&E's in the southern end of our county in 2013 with the same modus operandi, i.e. take out the power to a remote outbuilding so as to kill the motion detecting lights that are common around here, enter and steal ATV's, snowmobiles, yard equipment, vehicles, tools, etc. Many times they have dragged equipment out onto a trailer at the roadside to avoid the noise of starting what they steal. They are either very lucky or very good because no one has cut their path yet. Hell, only one guy's dog even alerted on them, so they may be casing and scenting their targets. Be that as it may, the discussion was about how to clear and possibly detain when the only ambient light would be the moon, if it was out. This led to a consensus of momentary/click-on being the type light to have.
We are not HSLD, Tier ? operators, or LEO's (nor mall ninjas), just property owners trying to keep what we've earned, living where police response is 20~30 minutes away. These are the criteria that we used to arrive at our conclusion and hopefully this explains my mindset. We certainly can learn from those who have more experience or better ideas, and your words are not wasted. I thank you for the input and advice.
As an aside, you stated earlier that you would suggest separate switches for on and momentary. I'm thinking you mean something akin to Surefire's pressure pad (SR07) with the round button in front? If correct, is this an acceptable compromise to your momentary-only doctrine?
You make valid points and perhaps justify re-evaluation of my performance criteria, but to address some specifics......
No, I don't believe it was an accident that the HSP WML is momentary only. I believed that Mr. Haley is ex-Military and spec'd his version to cater to LEO and Military personnel, who have very different goals and tactics in an armed confrontation than a property owner has when defending hearth and home. I want to send 'em packing, you guys need to apprehend or neutralize them. ( I'm assuming you are an LEO based on your words "I don't work that violation".)But from my perspective, being a LEO makes it more likely that I have to deal with the bad guy surrendering and go hands-on with him. A homeowner doesn't need to capture anyone. In many cases, the bad guy may flee and in most states that will keep you from legally using deadly force.
The other issue is one of tactics. Clearly the world isn't perfect, but in an ideal scenario the homeowner takes a defensive potition with a firearm and calls 911. In that situation, the type of switching on the light isn't such a big deal, as the homeowner should be barricaded so that he has cover and can (ideally) train the weapon on the only door into that room/area. If the bad guy comes into that space, there won't be any need to keep a light on him. The 911 call should have already been made, and the bad guy should have holes in him. Searching a house, even your own is very difficult and dangerous. Full time LEO's and .mil types who train regularly on that know how dangerous it is in teams - alone it's damn near crazy. It's also very time-consuming and exhausting. Unless you have to go secure visiting friends, family members, etc., then staying put and waiting is the best play for 99% of us IMO.
Perhaps I should have been more specific when I used the term "home". We live out in the countryside, pretty isolated. Most properties out here have several outbuildings, pole barns,etc, spread across the land.
This was exactly the conversation at "the local gunstore". There have been several B&E's in the southern end of our county in 2013 with the same modus operandi, i.e. take out the power to a remote outbuilding so as to kill the motion detecting lights that are common around here, enter and steal ATV's, snowmobiles, yard equipment, vehicles, tools, etc. Many times they have dragged equipment out onto a trailer at the roadside to avoid the noise of starting what they steal. They are either very lucky or very good because no one has cut their path yet. Hell, only one guy's dog even alerted on them, so they may be casing and scenting their targets. Be that as it may, the discussion was about how to clear and possibly detain when the only ambient light would be the moon, if it was out. This led to a consensus of momentary/click-on being the type light to have.
Okay - I'll admit I didn't consider such rural areas previously in our discussion. I work/live in a very urban, and sometimes suburban area. I can see the cutting of power in your situation being an issue. But, this scenario you outline only drives home the importance of not searching. Yes, I get it - every fiber of your being wants to go out to the barn and teach those crooks a lesson. It's in our DNA to want to do that. But it's terribly dangerous. Now, we are talking about leaving the safety of your home to cross uncleared open areas, some of which may be wooded or have several buildings, vehicles, etc. that will provide cover and concealment for bad guys. If they are stealing ATV's, then I'd bet there are 2 or more of them. Trying to secure them in that situation opens you up to all manner of threats. Even if they don't have lookouts, they outnumber you and one can surprise you while you focus on the other. In fact, this is a role when having a light that is left on is really going to bite the homeowner in the butt.
Now, let's say the homeowner or someone else called 911 before going outside to check his property. Now we have responding LEO's who show up and see a figure walking around with a long gun or handgun. Even in the best possible outcome, the homeowner will be cuffed while things are sorted out. There are countless ways that could go bad in a hurry.
Does it suck being a witness and watching while thugs take something you worked hard to buy/build? Of course. Is any of that stuff worth your life? Or worth your kids growing up without you? Not in the least. If you can see them from the house - give a detailed description to the 911 operator. Take photos or video if possible. But going out there to confront them is an urge that should be resisted at all costs IMO.
We are not HSLD, Tier ? operators, or LEO's (nor mall ninjas), just property owners trying to keep what we've earned, living where police response is 20~30 minutes away. These are the criteria that we used to arrive at our conclusion and hopefully this explains my mindset. We certainly can learn from those who have more experience or better ideas, and your words are not wasted. I thank you for the input and advice.
My best advice is to invest in motion activated and photocell lights, as well as CCTV systems. Post signs at the road that say anyone on the property is subject to video surveillance. Unless you have unlimited financial resources and want to live behind high walls with no outside world contact... you cannot make your property impenetrable. The goal is to make it enough of a challenge/risk that the bad guy skips your place and moves onto your neighbor's.
As an aside, you stated earlier that you would suggest separate switches for on and momentary. I'm thinking you mean something akin to Surefire's pressure pad (SR07) with the round button in front? If correct, is this an acceptable compromise to your momentary-only doctrine?
I have no experience with the SR07. It looks like it would work decently well... but I'm not a fan of cables on a rifle. They tend to catch on things... break... etc. What I would like is a light such as the WML that has built-in switches on each side. They could be the constant on switches and the rear switch could be momentary only. Or vice versa - I don't think it would matter, but would need range time to see if there is a preference. They would need to be protected against accidental activation and be large enough that I could feel them while wearing gloves. To my knowledge nobody offers such a product. So my compromise in the mean time is to use momentary only lights.
The bottom line is that you need to determine what works for you and your situation. Then practice and train to identify what shortfalls there may be in your plan. I'm not there, and I'm not relying on you to protect me. If you decide a constant on light is best for your needs, then go for it. Everyone has different requirements. I just want you and others to consider all the options, and recognize that the momentary lights are favored by armed professionals for a reason. If that reason doesn't fit into a home owner's world - then that's not my call to override.
Stay safe.
El Cid, thanks for your considered insight and advice.
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