View Full Version : Hk 293 (Civilian G36)
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-25-13, 20:44
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/11/25/heckler-koch-hk243-hk293-civilian-g36/
The rifle is made with parts from the G36, but the bolt and the .223-chambered barrel design are unique. The reason for this is that gun companies in Germany cannot sell “weapons of war” to civilians. This gun has been sufficiently changed that it cannot be easily converted to a military-stye fully-automatic G36.
The rifle will feature a quad rail and a STANAG magazine well that accepts standard AR-15 magazine. Four different types of stocks will be offered, a short fixed stock, a long fixed stock (hunting/SLR style?) and two types of adjustable stocks.
We are truly living in a sort of second golden age of black guns (I consider the period up until the 89-94 period the first golden age). I wouldn't mind having one of these babies.
Tagged for later.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
That's awesome news, I've been wanting to get my hands on a G36 for some time now. I have even been looking into doing an SL8 conversion and even started placing bids on gunbroker. Now I'm glad I decided to wait. I would like to see the other stock options though.
brushy bill
11-25-13, 21:05
The quote "This gun has been sufficiently changed..." concerns me.
I believe it when they are on gunbroker and once we find out what 'This gun has been sufficiently changed' exactly means.
And a price, cuz this is HK. I suspect the SCAR is going to be the bargain basement cheap rifle in that competition.
H
Army Chief
11-25-13, 21:28
Never thought that we would ever see this day ... and now I'm left to wonder very much what it is going to actually look like so long after-the-fact.
Got to hand it to HK for even making the effort at this point, though. Hoping we get to offer this one a full and fair assessment.
AC
I simply hope I can justify buying one... ;)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Meh. Maybe a G36C.
How about some 10.5" 416 uppers/complete rifles that aren't $5K. Or even a UMP.
MountainRaven
11-25-13, 21:57
It may be hideous, but I kinda want one to be earnest.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-25-13, 22:05
I was barely reading it until I noticed it took standard cap mags. If it takes regular capacity mags I am on board.
KingsideRook
11-25-13, 22:05
I've got to wonder, with the reports of so little to love about the G36-based XM-8 rifle from nearly a decade ago - what is the appeal of another rehash? I can see it being cool for H&K Completionists or the few doctors/lawyers that troll your local gun stores for the first SCAR/KSG/MR556 to hit the shelves. The one post-sample G36 I shot bounced around more than I really liked. The bolt movement really ruled the gun's feel, you could feel the balance point sling backwards with every shot.
There may be people here with more time shooting a G36 who can explain the appeal to me.
The rifle will feature a quad rail and a STANAG magazine well that accepts standard AR-15 magazine. Four different types of stocks will be offered, a short fixed stock, a long fixed stock (hunting/SLR style?) and two types of adjustable stocks.
Jesus ****ing Christ, will they stop with that shit already. SIGs, HKs and AUGs don't need to use AR mags. If you can afford the rifle, you can afford the mags. Magpul even makes a G36 mag if you really need to watch your pennies.
No matter what HK does, seems they will find a way to **** it up. And if HK wants to give us a rifle that takes AR mags how about a version of the MR556 carbine that doesn't weigh more than my FAL.
Meh. Maybe a G36C.
How about some 10.5" 416 uppers/complete rifles that aren't $5K. Or even a UMP.
The time to do a UMP was years ago.
http://imageshack.us/a/img74/6407/p1003831ku1.jpg
What about a semi HK416A5?
SIGs, HKs and AUGs don't need to use AR mags. If you can afford the rifle, you can afford the mags.
While I agree with you fully, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't wrt the magazines. Just look at one of the common complaints against the MR762......and a couple of the other rifles.
Whatever route they chose there will be some segment throwing it out there as forum fodder......Those of us who think beyond the AR15 platform and can use the common sense we were born with and will pay the $90 for magazines are unfortunately in the minority. I think they made the wrong choice in this case as those folks aren't going to be buying these rifles anyway.
I'll still buy the rifle, but will wonder how much better it could have been with standard G36 magazines.
Jesus ****ing Christ, will they stop with that shit already. SIGs, HKs and AUGs don't need to use AR mags. If you can afford the rifle, you can afford the mags. Magpul even makes a G36 mag if you really need to watch your pennies.
No matter what HK does, seems they will find a way to **** it up. And if HK wants to give us a rifle that takes AR mags how about a version of the MR556 carbine that doesn't weigh more than my FAL.
Totally agree with this. I went with the AUG and never even entertained the idea of getting the NATO (AR mag) stock. In fact it is a huge turn off for me. The next rifle I've got my eyes on is the CZ 805 Bren, but only if it (ever) is available with it's own mag design.
I agree on the mag issue.
I think that the issue of "significantly altered" is probably not worth worrying about. The MR556 is significantly altered; they added that tab to the barrel extension which fits in a corresponding relief cut on the carrier. Not a huge deal. It's not like the MR223 in Europe that has take down pin holes in a different spot to prevent upper/lower swapping.
Magic_Salad0892
11-26-13, 01:37
I wonder if they have HK's "revisions" that the German army didn't want to purchase.
This is great news. As for the magazine issue, I would hope we can simply swap for the standard g36 magazine well.
Just curious, why are so many against rifles accepting standard AR mags? Is it because of the necessity to modify the original design?
Just curious, why are so many against rifles accepting standard AR mags? Is it because of the necessity to modify the original design?
Some people probably worry about the change in design having adverse affects on the performance of the gun. For the purist or collector, it's about having the gun you want. Lets not kid ourselves like we often do on the interwebs. 99% of us don't need 99.9% of the guns we own. We own them because we want to. Some people prefer to get the gun setup the way we always dreamed of it. I'm guilty of it. I just spent a ton of coin on a 551. I could have spend 20% as much and gotten that abomination that Sig Sauer sells. I didn't WANT an aluminum lower that takes AR mags. I didn't WANT a cheap US barrel with an A2 or some other silly muzzle device. I didn't WANT fake diopters or furniture. Purely WANTs drove me to spend lots of money on the "real thing." This gun will have people saying the same thing. I don't need the SIG at all, much less all but one of my ARs. After the first one, the rest were wants. The SIG wont do anything one of my ARs can't do better-except fill the void of wanting an all Swiss SIG. Guys will say the same thing about this HK (which surely will be better than the fake SIG). I hope it shows up, because more black guns is always a plus in my book.
As an aside, before people blow things out of proportion and accuse me of being one of "those types" that doesn't think that an American can decide for themselves what they actually need. I'm not saying that. A want or desire to own something is more than sufficient in my book. It explains why I can't pare my collection down to a handful of guns. I should be fine with a rimfire, AR, 9mm pistol, hunting rifle, and shotgun. I'm not though. I have far more guns than I realistically need, but far less than I want.
I have far more guns than I realistically need, but far less than I want.
Pretty sure this is everyones motto on here.
As far as the mag issue, I really like being able to use the same magazine for multiple guns. If your really interested there's a pretty good thread on HKpro about HKs possible up-and-coming.
Just curious, why are so many against rifles accepting standard AR mags? Is it because of the necessity to modify the original design?
Because it wasn't designed to shoot AR magazines and there Is a better option already available that will likely function better in the rifle.
bondmid003
11-26-13, 10:07
I'll buy one anyway but for those of us that have an SL-8 conversion and a ton of genuine G36 mags it would have been nice to get some use out of those with another rifle.
Just curious, why are so many against rifles accepting standard AR mags? Is it because of the necessity to modify the original design?
Well, I would say that is part of it. But for me the biggest issue is that the US has forced what is IMO the worst 5.56 mag ever made onto nearly every 5.56 rifle design. My views have changed over the past year or so. I sold my 6920 when I went through my divorce. When it was time to replace it I decided I did not want another DI rifle or the AR mag system. I have been more satisfied with my AUG than I ever thought I would be. From all the research I had done on the AUG plus my own experience with it, it appears to be one of the most reliable designs available. It also uses what has been described as the most reliable 5.56 mags ever designed. It does not handle like the AR for certain, but if you can adapt to it's manual of arms it has a lot to offer. I am glad I made the switch but I also do not hate the AR system. I just wanted something better and, for my own use, I think I have achieved that goal.
From what I have read, the CZ 805 Bren is about 5 years away from being available in the US, politics not withstanding. I am greatly interested in this design, but only if it becomes available with it's own mag design. If it only becomes available with the AR mag well then I will pass on it.
In my search for a new rifle I only had a few designs on my list, I was interested in the following;
SCAR 16 (a negative point was it still uses the AR mag)
SCAR 17 (price was a negative with this one)
TAVOR (I was really interested in this one)
AUG (The one I finally chose)
I think we all have to make our own choices base on what we perceive we want for our own reasons.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-26-13, 14:17
It is a minor issue for me. H&K has offered the STANAG conversion for years. I suspect they have done their homework. It is always a tough call but I suspect the market is greater for the gun if it takes industry standard mags. That being said, if they offer a replacement G36 mag well it will probably sell.
That being said, bravo to HK for getting their groove back.
It is a minor issue for me. H&K has offered the STANAG conversion for years. I suspect they have done their homework. It is always a tough call but I suspect the market is greater for the gun if it takes industry standard mags. That being said, if they offer a replacement G36 mag well it will probably sell.
That being said, bravo to HK for getting their groove back.
I agree with Old Greg. Compatibility with standard mags can make a huge difference in the U.S. market. The cost of H&Ks are never cheap and the fact that people don't have to buy expensive proprietary mags for it as well can be a huge selling point. That being said H&K makes some awesome mags so I can see why people are upset.
Glad to see HK attempting this, it's long overdue.
This is great news. As for the magazine issue, I would hope we can simply swap for the standard g36 magazine well.
Yeah, curious too about this. Wonder if it's designed in such a way that you could just pick up aftermarket parts and restore it to a nearly-a-G36 condition.
While I agree with you fully, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't wrt the magazines. Just look at one of the common complaints against the MR762......and a couple of the other rifles.
Whatever route they chose there will be some segment throwing it out there as forum fodder......Those of us who think beyond the AR15 platform and can use the common sense we were born with and will pay the $90 for magazines are unfortunately in the minority. I think they made the wrong choice in this case as those folks aren't going to be buying these rifles anyway.
I'll still buy the rifle, but will wonder how much better it could have been with standard G36 magazines.
I'd disagree but I'm too busy trying to find a gunsmith who can do a NATO magwell conversion on my WASR 10 so it will take AR magazines.
Just curious, why are so many against rifles accepting standard AR mags? Is it because of the necessity to modify the original design?
Because it's not a freaking AR. AR magazines are "standard" for ARs, they are not standard for AUGs, HKs, SIGs and AKs.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-26-13, 16:35
I get your point. But the AR mag really is the "standard" these days. Every thing from the FS2000, SCAR-16, the SA-80, Daewoo, FNC, Ar-18, Ar-70, Negev, etc. It isn't the best mag, but it is the standard.
It may not before everyone, but I figure any new modern sporting rifle in the U.S. market is a good thing. I'm looking forward to checking one out.
Thankfully the g36 mag well is modular. Allows each camp to have their preferred option. And Magpul g36 mags can be used for 922(r) compliance when using the standard mag well.
A factory semiauto G36 for US civilian consumption is a must have reference item in my opinion. I for one am very excited to see these available here.
eternal24k
11-26-13, 18:15
I hope so....
it IS nice to see HK trying these days, I hope they havent some how doubled the weight or have an insane price tag.
I am still praying for 10.5" MR556 uppers
This is great news. As for the magazine issue, I would hope we can simply swap for the standard g36 magazine well.
I'm honestly interested. Will be keeping a close eye on developments on this.
Regarding the mags issue, taking AR-type mags is a big plus in my book. I'm in Colorado, so if they made it take proprietary mags, I'd be screwed.
This will be all ****ed up just like the ACR, HK MR556, and the SIG 556
That being said, bravo to HK for getting their groove back.
We'll see, this may or may not be one of the shot14 announcements rumored to be coming from them. If true, yes good on them for jumping through all of the whoops necessary to bring this into the US....It was probably at least as complicated to do as the MR series.
I'd like to get my hands on one. Seeing as I won't be at SHOT this year, perhaps someone can give me a no BS run down if they can get hands on with this in January.
H
ForTehNguyen
11-26-13, 20:21
nice height over bore for the optics, chin weld time.
MountainRaven
11-26-13, 20:24
I'd disagree but I'm too busy trying to find a gunsmith who can do a NATO magwell conversion on my WASR 10 so it will take AR magazines.
I'm pretty sure there's a guy in Fla who does exactly that.
Here (http://www.definitivearms.com/main_page.html) we are….
I get your point. But the AR mag really is the "standard" these days. Every thing from the FS2000, SCAR-16, the SA-80, Daewoo, FNC, Ar-18, Ar-70, Negev, etc. It isn't the best mag, but it is the standard.
And if Germany develops the HK XM18 and it is designed to use AR mags I would have zero objection. My objection is when they redesign rifles to use a different magazine. Btw the AR-18 does NOT use an AR magazine.
nice height over bore for the optics, chin weld time.
Once upon a time we used to put high mounted optics on M-16s, HK91s and FAL rifles. Amazingly we somehow managed to even hit out targets.
I'll tell ya a secret, if you learn to shoot an AR with a carry handle mounted optic it's just as easy as if you learn to shoot an AR with a flat top rail mounted optic. Indeed some of us "old guys" have a problem adjusting to the extremely low mount of the M4.
Thankfully the g36 mag well is modular. Allows each camp to have their preferred option. And Magpul g36 mags can be used for 922(r) compliance when using the standard mag well.
A factory semiauto G36 for US civilian consumption is a must have reference item in my opinion. I for one am very excited to see these available here.
Hopefully what they offer is interchangeable with the G36 magazine well.
Considering HK wants to sell these in the US and make $$$, going with an AR mag makes perfect sense.
Looking at the pictures, it looks like the mag well can be replaced with a different one with the push of a couple pins and screws. Looks like the rails can be replaced in a similar fashion.
What advantages does a civilian version of the HK G36 offer over the HK MR556A1?
KalashniKEV
11-27-13, 11:36
Because it's not a freaking AR. AR magazines are "standard" for ARs, they are not standard for AUGs, HKs, SIGs and AKs.
It's not a G36 either.
If it were a real, 1:1, semi G36 then I would appreciate the G36 mag- because I'd be getting the representative experience of shooting that rifle.
As soon as you take any wild departures from the original design, you might as well design it for cheap, plentiful mags. It's the same as the AR-180B.
People who want to field this platform as a serious use carbine will appreciate the STANAG mags too. For me, an AR platform is the only serious use carbine.
It's not a G36 either.
If it were a real, 1:1, semi G36 then I would appreciate the G36 mag- because I'd be getting the representative experience of shooting that rifle.
As soon as you take any wild departures from the original design, you might as well design it for cheap, plentiful mags. It's the same as the AR-180B.
People who want to field this platform as a serious use carbine will appreciate the STANAG mags too. For me, an AR platform is the only serious use carbine.
So by your logic the HK91 should not have accepted G3 mags since it isn't a true 1:1 semi version?
The AR-180B took AR mags because they were producing a cheap POS knockoff and weren't about to produce AR-180 magazines.
How many other "serious use" carbines do you own or even have experience with to have arrived at such a conclusion?
This will be all ****ed up just like the ACR, HK MR556, and the SIG 556
Comparing the MR556 to the ACR that Trashmaster put out, or that abortion known as the 556 or 551A1 is a little over the top. Namely because the ACR and 556/551A1 are pieces of trash compared to what they mimic. At least with the HK you're still getting an HK.
It's unlikely that anyone will get a Remington ACR, so what you're left with is a Bushmaster. No elaboration needed.
That stupid 556/551A1 is not even made by the same people as a real SIG rifle. It's made in the Bushmaster of pistol factories. All the parts on it are still made by clowns. So not only did they put out a rifle that was only similar to the orignal, but it was also far lower quality.
The MR556 does have a couple of changes, but it's still an HK. Calling the MR556 a POS because of a few tiny changes is like calling any of the 9X series roller lock guns POS's because of the small changes made to those from the real military guns.
Heavy Metal
11-27-13, 12:44
The AR-180B took AR mags because they were producing a cheap POS knockoff and weren't about to produce AR-180 magazines.
In that case, it was a wise move. The only real difference between AR-15 and AR-18 mags are the lock-up in their respective mag wells and IIRC, a small step on the rear of the follower. I have a Sterling and would LOVE to see someone like Lancer or Magpul do a run for those old rifles.
As far as this rifle goes, I am more concerned if they incorporate the wandering zero fixes with the improved trunion and the other durability/reliability enhancements the Bundeswehr poo-pooed than the mag well. My understanding is the mag well can be swapped easily anyways. I am confident an aftermarket fix will appear if the rifle is sucessful.
I am more concerned if they incorporate the wandering zero fixes with the improved trunion and the other durability/reliability enhancements the Bundeswehr poo-pooed
Please show me documented evidence of this beyond a report from the German version of the National Enquirer, heard once and now repeated over and over again on forums.
Comparing the MR556 to the ACR that Trashmaster put out, or that abortion known as the 556 or 551A1 is a little over the top.
Yep. I would actually like to hear what is so F'd up with the MR556.
Magic_Salad0892
11-27-13, 17:02
When are they going to import their civilian MP5 that they applied for?
Moose-Knuckle
11-27-13, 18:11
I know its not about looks, but . . .
This thing looks like it belongs in a ****ing Dolph Lundgren film.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/HK293_zpsddab1856.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/HK293_zpsddab1856.jpg.html)
As others have stated, yeh cool another black gun on the market but I'm having flashbacks to the Sig 556 . . .
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/sig556_zps5a0e40e5.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/sig556_zps5a0e40e5.jpg.html)
Definitely a big ho-hum
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
I bet the rifle will accept all G36 stocks....ie the standard G36 stock, the C stock, the KV, and the most recent iteration as shown in the photos. The railed handguard should interchange with any appropriate length G36 fore-end.
I don't understand why everyone is getting bent out of shape. Assuming the receiver accepts standard G36 stocks, fore-ends, and mag wells, who really cares if it isn't in the exact configuration you want from the factory. Just reconfigure it.
If these are available, I will be doing a G36C SBR with Spuhr optic rail and fore-end.
I know its not about looks, but . . .
This thing looks like it belongs in a ****ing Dolph Lundgren film.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/HK293_zpsddab1856.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/HK293_zpsddab1856.jpg.html)
As others have stated, yeh cool another black gun on the market but I'm having flashbacks to the Sig 556 . . .
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/sig556_zps5a0e40e5.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/sig556_zps5a0e40e5.jpg.html)
KalashniKEV
11-27-13, 22:20
So by your logic the HK91 should not have accepted G3 mags since it isn't a true 1:1 semi version?
No, because clip on/ pushpin is mostly cosmetic.
I'm saying that if you change the location of the charging handle, the type of mags and mag release, eliminate features like the folding stock and dust cover... then you have departed so far from the original design that you might as well keep going and make it easy for users.
The AR-180B took AR mags because they were producing a cheap POS knockoff and weren't about to produce AR-180 magazines.
Likewise, this will be like the SL8- a cheap POS knockoff of the G36.
How many other "serious use" carbines do you own or even have experience with to have arrived at such a conclusion?
Check your tone.
You've obviously completely missed my point.
My go-to-gun is a Noveske Crusader Switchblock. Everything else in my collection is a hobby gun... I've got a healthy stack of battle rifles, some 80's subgun/SBR/PCC stuff, and a bunch of 5.56 carbines from around-the-worrrrrld.
How many other serious use carbines do you own or even have "experience" with?
I bet the rifle will accept all G36 stocks....ie the standard G36 stock, the C stock, the KV, and the most recent iteration as shown in the photos. The railed handguard should interchange with any appropriate length G36 fore-end.
I don't understand why everyone is getting bent out of shape.Assuming the receiver accepts standard G36 stocks, fore-ends, and mag wells, who really cares if it isn't in the exact configuration you want from the factory. Just reconfigure it.
If these are available, I will be doing a G36C SBR with Spuhr optic rail and fore-end.
Because your assumptions might not be correct. I hope you're right, but I knew I was gonna love my MR556 when I finally got it.
No, because clip on/ pushpin is mostly cosmetic.
I'm saying that if you change the location of the charging handle, the type of mags and mag release, eliminate features like the folding stock and dust cover... then you have departed so far from the original design that you might as well keep going and make it easy for users.
Likewise, this will be like the SL8- a cheap POS knockoff of the G36.
Well there were more changes from the G3 to the 91 than the simple push pin. But I'm too tired to list them all. And I don't have a LOT of G36 time but I don't recall a dust cover, the charging handle and the mag release seemed to be in the same location. Don't want to suggest there was anything "great" about the SL8 but the changes that exist were mostly done for German export laws and US import laws.
Check your tone.
You've obviously completely missed my point.
My go-to-gun is a Noveske Crusader Switchblock. Everything else in my collection is a hobby gun... I've got a healthy stack of battle rifles, some 80's subgun/SBR/PCC stuff, and a bunch of 5.56 carbines from around-the-worrrrrld.
How many other serious use carbines do you own or even have "experience" with?
There is no need for me to check my tone as there was no tone. I asked you a question about your experience. I don't know you so I don't know what you know. I could tell you to check your tone but then we'd go circular in a never ending game of "I know you are but what am I?"
And I seriously hope you aren't asking me about what serious use carbines I may or may not own.
:lol:
Please show me documented evidence of this beyond a report from the German version of the National Enquirer, heard once and now repeated over and over again on forums.
The fact that the German government is investigating a number of things, including the evaluation process, suggests there might be something wrong.
Because your assumptions might not be correct. I hope you're right, but I knew I was gonna love my MR556 when I finally got it.
True. I hope my assumptions are correct. What is so wrong with the MR556? My only beef is the lack of a fullauto bolt carrier to use on my M16 lower.
KalashniKEV
11-28-13, 07:14
Well there were more changes from the G3 to the 91 than the simple push pin. But I'm too tired to list them all.
I think you're being deliberately obtuse.
The user experience between a G3 and HK91 is very similar.
The user experience between an AR180 and and AR180B is not, for reasons I listed.
If someone made an HK93-type that took AR mags, I personally wouldn't buy it, because it would be too far a departure from the original design and since I don't plan on "needing" STANAG interchangeability (or desiring to use someone's hybrid design), I wouldn't derive any benefit.
And I don't have a LOT of G36 time but I don't recall a dust cover,
There isn't one. I was talking about the departure from the AR180 design that made the AR180B a failure.
I asked you a question about your experience... And I seriously hope you aren't asking me about what serious use carbines I may or may not own.
:lol:
I know you have a large and varied collection. Me too.
I moved the quotes because I was inquiring about your experience... let's just drop it.
The fact that the German government is investigating a number of things, including the evaluation process, suggests there might be something wrong.
Again, if you are going to post this stuff you should include your fact based source. This is the same "story" being repeated over and over again.
Until you see the German Military suspend its use I'd be suspicious. The G36 was designed AND tested to a far higher level of sustained fire than the AR platform.
In addition, HK responded directly to this "issue".
HK Responds (http://www.heckler-koch.com/en/military/company/news/detail/article/communique-current-media-reports-regarding-the-g36-assault-rifle.html)
MountainRaven
11-28-13, 09:56
If someone made an HK93-type that took AR mags, I personally wouldn't buy it, because it would be too far a departure from the original design and since I don't plan on "needing" STANAG interchangeability (or desiring to use someone's hybrid design), I wouldn't derive any benefit.
:|
I'd buy one.
Link (http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=83:g41-series).
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-28-13, 10:35
Hkguns,
I would pretty much say HK called B.S. on that. Basically, Der Spiegel's reporters seem to have as much firearms technical acumen as the American media. That is to say, less than none. Of course, that will never satisfy the internet. The XM-8 DESTROYED all comers in the dust tests and we still have to hear how it was a POS from the internet.
True. I hope my assumptions are correct. What is so wrong with the MR556? My only beef is the lack of a fullauto bolt carrier to use on my M16 lower.
Front heavy monster that weighed more than my FAL.
I think you're being deliberately obtuse.
The user experience between a G3 and HK91 is very similar.
The user experience between an AR180 and and AR180B is not, for reasons I listed.
If someone made an HK93-type that took AR mags, I personally wouldn't buy it, because it would be too far a departure from the original design and since I don't plan on "needing" STANAG interchangeability (or desiring to use someone's hybrid design), I wouldn't derive any benefit.
I'm not being deliberately obtuse, I'm old and get lost easily.
I thought you were referencing the difference between the G-36 and this rifle (or th e SL8. I didn't realize you were referencing the difference between the AR-18 and the AR-180B. If you had been a bit more specific I might have tracked along with you and would agree. The 180B is a horrible, horrible POS.
I
There isn't one. I was talking about the departure from the AR180 design that made the AR180B a failure.
When we switched gears you failed to mention that (or I missed it). I thought we were still discussing G36 to SL8. My replies with that understanding will probably make more sense now.
I
I know you have a large and varied collection. Me too.
I moved the quotes because I was inquiring about your experience... let's just drop it.
I've been shooting these kinds of rifles and carbines for well over 30 years. But now that we've figured out where we got off the same page, that probably isn't terribly relevant.
I inquired about your experience because when you noted the difference between the AR-18/180 and the 180B I thought you were still discussing the difference between the G36 and the SL8 which led me to question your experience.
:|
I'd buy one.
Link (http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=83:g41-series).
Oh I would be all over a G41.
Anyone have specs on weight? It looks heavy. I also don't understand the quad rail. The industry and shooters have moved significantly away from this for a variety of logical reasons.
The AR mag thing doesn't bother me unless it affects performance. I have plenty of AR mags so not having to stock up on proprietary mags is a bonus in my book. It's more than saving money - we live under a constant threat of asshole politicians trying their best to make mags unavailable or neutered. If that happens, we will be stuck with what we have.
Serious Account
11-28-13, 13:39
I still don't get way they choose to go with the quad rail handguard (which look pretty heavy and expensive) instead of the standard polymer handguard with hard points for attaching rails where you want to.
Either ways, big kudos to HK for finally giving us a civi G36. I hope it isn't going to flop.
I can not get a clear answer on this...what does a G36 offer that a HK 416 doesn't??
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
MountainRaven
11-28-13, 15:56
I can not get a clear answer on this...what does a G36 offer that a HK 416 doesn't??
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
Off the top of my head (and I may be wrong about one of these): A folding stock, a charging handle in a more/less retarded place, and push-pin replacement of the hand guard.
ETA: Possibly an ambi bolt catch/release and magazine release, too.
Thanks
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
I can not get a clear answer on this...what does a G36 offer that a HK 416 doesn't??
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
It is an HK rifle that isn't an AR, that is what it gives you. (I am not saying AR's are bad)
In other words, no big deal
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
I can not get a clear answer on this...what does a G36 offer that a HK 416 doesn't??
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
Well here is the first problem.
The G36 was introduced into service in 1997 and the 416 in 2005. Kinda like asking what the HK PS9 can do that the Glock can't.
Generally new rifles can build / improve upon existing ideas and designs.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-28-13, 19:00
No carrier tilt? LOL
Moose-Knuckle
11-28-13, 21:43
I don't understand why everyone is getting bent out of shape. Assuming the receiver accepts standard G36 stocks, fore-ends, and mag wells, who really cares if it isn't in the exact configuration you want from the factory. Just reconfigure it.
I don't see anyone getting bent out of shape here. We are consumers and as such it is our luxury to voice our opinions and concerns over products that we would be spending $1K+ on. As collectors, enthusiast, et al. we have been dissapointed time and again by manufacturers (ACR, 556, MR556) inwhich we support with our money. IF the rifle pictured in the OP can be "reconfigured" the owner would have to pay more money and spend time tracking down the correct OEM parts.
Sondermeldung! Lieber H&K- Die grosse Waffenpanik in Amerika ist vorbei. Sie sind leider zu spaet gekommen. Vielleicht im 2016?
Again, if you are going to post this stuff you should include your fact based source. This is the same "story" being repeated over and over again.
Until you see the German Military suspend its use I'd be suspicious. The G36 was designed AND tested to a far higher level of sustained fire than the AR platform.
In addition, HK responded directly to this "issue".
HK Responds (http://www.heckler-koch.com/en/military/company/news/detail/article/communique-current-media-reports-regarding-the-g36-assault-rifle.html)
Also, HK has a newer response that has not been translated into English yet: http://www.heckler-koch.com/en/military/company/news/detail/article/heckler-koch-wehrt-sich-gegen-die-mediale-skandalisierung-des-g36.html
I'm not saying the POI shift issue doesn't exist (or to what degree it exists) just that HK claimed they weren't able to replicate this issue yet in their testing.
Google translator is horrible at translating but the major points of HK's response could be read: Heckler & Koch defends itself against the media scandal of the G36
09/17/2013
Current high point in an ongoing campaign against the company
Oberndorf, 17 September 2013 - Heckler & Koch will consult with all available legal remedies against further attempts by the reputation of the company and its products to the military. Recent highlights of years of ongoing campaign against the company are recent reports in the news magazine Der Spiegel and announced for tonight SWR broadcast "Report Mainz" with the aim to discredit the reputation for the high quality of products by Heckler & Koch. These alleged revelations about alleged quality defects of the G36 assault rifle, and other products out of the house Heckler & Koch go according to statement of DER SPIEGEL back to the information of a retired officer of the Procurement Office Koblenz. Reference is also made repeatedly on former Heckler & Koch employees as authoritative sources in media reports. The impression should not be dismissed out of hand, that self-motivated former internal as well as external parties are anxious to keep Heckler & Koch in the negative media coverage. This is usually done with already known facts, however, are presented in remarkable times and scandalized.
Scandal part of a campaign against the company
The on SPIEGEL Report Mainz and currently as a "new arms scandal" recycled facts to assault rifle G36 is discussed in the media on a regular basis since 2010. The introduced into the Bundeswehr in 1995 rifle G36 is still one of international leading technology and reliable assault rifle ammunition of caliber 5.56 mm x 45 NATO for use on short and medium distances. It optimally combines the objectives of weight reduction, high firepower, precision and reliability under all climatic conditions, in the context of the physical determinants that has every weapon.
Medial other hand, an image of an unreliable product is drawn, which was purchased with deficiencies knowingly and under questionable circumstances for the equipment of the Bundeswehr. The fact that more than 40 nations have also procured this product appears in this context as a collective ignorance, against only the ability to assess a former official from the Procurement Office, former HK employee and a SPIEGEL editor and the editors of the Report Mainz can accomplish anything. The Heckler & Koch each requested in advance of the publication information on the facts to be as regularly ignored or incorporated in heavily abridged and distorted form. Contrary to any expert opinion, which underlines the suitability of the G36, if intended used and handled, insisting the published reports to presenting basic physical realities design faults.
Der Spiegel plans to continue the story in his forthcoming because of the federal election on Saturday, 21 September, earlier issue. Report Mainz radiates his G36 report to the Heckler & Koch answered a few weeks ago a urgent request to ask for their short-term information, now just in this week from. This aggressive reporting in the context of the federal election reaffirms the view of Heckler & Koch ongoing for three years now campaign against the company, which aims to damage the company's reputation as a technology leader in the area of handguns massive.
The on 09.16.2013 published by SPIEGEL article takes Heckler & Koch also any possible undue influence on decision-makers in the Ministry and Procurement Office before what the company expressly and emphatically rejects.
Cynical and unacceptable is that the same article discussed the tragic events of Good Friday 2010 in the context of the alleged inefficiency of the G36. Heckler & Koch regularly receives positive feedback from users who report that the company's products have helped them to prove themselves in critical combat situations. This is for Heckler & Koch, the largest award, for the protection and security of the soldiers have the highest priority for all of our employees.
# # #
Background information on the suitability of the G36 assault rifle
The regularly presented in the media battle scenario, initially to use the G36 for continuous fire and then they would issue a targeted range shot that goes past the tactical operational reality. In fact, the troupe takes the necessary long-range effort to ensure appropriate Heckler & Koch - back weapons, each of which is carried in use.
The G36 rifle has no "construction defect". As already explained more than once, the heating of the tube and the gun and the resulting effect on the accuracy is a physical condition, which applies to all weapons. In addition, the claimed reduction in accuracy performance by stray circuit enlargements and displacements meeting - not confirmed - despite extensive and repeated Heckler & Koch tests.
The G36 is even 20 years after its introduction in the army recognized as one of the best assault rifles worldwide. The G36 is designed for close combat and medium distances. It was introduced in the army in 1995 because it was best suited to the then military and technical requirements profile for a new assault rifle for the Bundeswehr.
The G36 is an assault rifle, which is to be used as all assault rifles in the world's single shots and short bursts at medium range. For sustained fire and the targeted long-range shot, the Bundeswehr has Heckler & Koch weapons that complement the G36 accordingly. For a high-precision accuracy performance over greater distances thus suitable weapons are available.
The customer requirements were and are, among other functional reliability under different climatic conditions, high efficacy in the target despite the smaller caliber ammunition, saving weight on the weapon, more cartridges at the man, as well as easy and safe operation under conditions of use. The G36 corresponded to the time of introduction and also meets today with these requirements in full. The use of plastic in the construction of the G36 has been a significant reduction in weight of the weapon makes, from which emerged a major relief for the soldiers and this now - also due to the smaller caliber the gun - can carry a larger supply of ammunition with him, resulting in increased performance by increasing the firepower. Details of the materials and their processing, as well as the production processes used are trade secret and is not disclosed for competitive reasons. The suitability of the G36 assault rifle is underlined by competent. The commander of the Joint Operations Command, Lieutenant General Hans-Werner Fritz in northern Afghanistan confirmed from his personal experience, there had been in his application no complaints about the G36 and its effective usage in the field and in preparation for use is given.
Army Chief
11-29-13, 07:38
For as long as folks have been waiting to see some version of this rifle show up, paying for costly conversions and investing in parts kits, etc., you would think that we would be willing to generate a bt of optimism here and/or at least withhold judgment until we see how it actually plays out.
Agree that the timing is unfortunate, and several years past the point of real relevance, but I still find ths to be an interesting and positive development. Granted, my perspective may be colored somewhat by spending many years in Germany, and having close friends in various Bundeswehr units there who speak highly of the G36, but any way you look at it, having another solid option or two from a company like HK is hardly going to prove a bad thing. Not sure I'll still be around when they actually hit our shores, of course, but I would love to own one.
AC
It provides another option for people who like shooting quality weapons. It is an HK after all, not a High Point.
For as long as folks have been waiting to see some version of this rifle show up, paying for costly conversions and investing in parts kits, etc., you would think that we would be willing to generate a bt of optimism here and/or at least withhold judgment until we see how it actually plays out.
Agree that the timing is unfortunate, and several years past the point of real relevance, but I still find ths to be an interesting and positive development. Granted, my perspective may be colored somewhat by spending many years in Germany, and having close friends in various Bundeswehr units there who speak highly of the G36, but any way you look at it, having another solid option or two from a company like HK is hardly going to prove a bad thing. Not sure I'll still be around when they actually hit our shores, of course, but I would love to own one.
AC
Well said AC, I couldn't agree more.
It would appear that the G36 offers no features or functions that would make a compelling case to chose it over the HK 416.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-29-13, 08:39
It would appear that the G36 offers no features or functions that would make a compelling case to chose it over the HK 416.
I think you continue to post that every page so no one misses it.:ph34r:
It would appear that the G36 offers no features or functions that would make a compelling case to chose it over the HK 416.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
Absolutely. The AR platform is one of, if not the best in terms of ergonomics and ease of use. The 416 is the zenith of the platform as used in a combat role.
However, the AR platform can get boring to people who are interested in other things. Being able to own various platforms, regardless of their superiority or inferiority to the AR makes things interesting.
Sondermeldung! Lieber H&K- Die grosse Waffenpanik in Amerika ist vorbei. Sie sind leider zu spaet gekommen. Vielleicht im 2016?
What does the NOBama induced panic have to do with them releasing a new rifle to the US? Certainly you aren't suggesting all MFG's cease new product introductions?
you would think that we would be willing to generate a bt of optimism here
In fairness, I view this as extremely positive and creative, given the restrictions they operate under in each Country.
However, the AR platform can get boring to people who are interested in other things. Being able to own various platforms, regardless of their superiority or inferiority to the AR makes things interesting.
Amen! I can't imagine only owning and shooting a single platform of any kind.
Absolutely. The AR platform is one of, if not the best in terms of ergonomics and ease of use. The 416 is the zenith of the platform as used in a combat role.
However, the AR platform can get boring to people who are interested in other things. Being able to own various platforms, regardless of their superiority or inferiority to the AR makes things interesting.
Makes sense
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
I'm excited to see this rifle hit the market. As others have stated, I hope it is compatible with the existing components of the G36.
Stephen
I'm excited to see this rifle hit the market. As others have stated, I hope it is compatible with the existing components of the G36.
Stephen
Wouldn't it be 'hitting the market' when we can actually buy them?
I'm still waiting for the ARX to 'hit the market' for going on two years now.
H
If these do come to be sold in the US, what will happen to the value of an SL8-G36 conversion?
Wouldn't it be 'hitting the market' when we can actually buy them?
I'm still waiting for the ARX to 'hit the market' for going on two years now.
H
Well, duh :-)
Comparing the MR556 to the ACR that Trashmaster put out, or that abortion known as the 556 or 551A1 is a little over the top. Namely because the ACR and 556/551A1 are pieces of trash compared to what they mimic. At least with the HK you're still getting an HK.
It's unlikely that anyone will get a Remington ACR, so what you're left with is a Bushmaster. No elaboration needed.
Were off topic, but I just couldn't resist. I am somewhat familiar with the ACR and I really don't get your hostility. It is very much the rifle Masada was supposed to be. Gun works extremely well. One could see the barrel with its profile (M4 1/9) as a bad choice but since it is basically an AR barrel it shouldn't be too hard to reprofile or switch to another spec barrel. What doesn't work is BM's inability to bring caliber conversion kits and other accessories to the market, but I think that is not relevant.
Also, I wouldn't worry about BM not being a Remington. All ACR's are made in the Remington facility at Ilion NY.
If these do come to be sold in the US, what will happen to the value of an SL8-G36 conversion?
I would imagine it will depend on how compatible the HK293 is with G36 components. I, for one, would still be interested in a conversion if I can't convert the HK293 into a near identical G36 clone.
Stephen
It would appear that the G36 offers no features or functions that would make a compelling case to chose it over the HK 416.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
Too bad HK doesn't currently offer a semi version of the 416.
OH, OK, I'll bite.....
"What ever do you mean, SteyrAUG? The semi-auto version of the HK 416 is the MR556, right?"
There...go for it.
I'll make some popcorn.
:)
RogerinTPA
11-29-13, 14:55
As long as it can be shown to have the reliability of its military counterpart, I'd be interested in obtaining one.
OH, OK, I'll bite.....
"What ever do you mean, SteyrAUG? The semi-auto version of the HK 416 is the MR556, right?"
There...go for it.
Ah, how about you do some homework on the MR555 vs the HK416, similarities, differences, and report back?
There is a reason genuine HK416 uppers are sought after in the US...
Ah, how about you do some homework on the MR555 vs the HK416, similarities, differences, and report back?
There is a reason genuine HK416 uppers are sought after in the US...
I'm fully aware of the OCD details here, I just get amused by those who get all worked up over 416 v. MR556.
I'm fully aware of the OCD details here, I just get amused by those who get all worked up over 416 v. MR556.
You mean like those who go on and on about how an older design isn't superior to a newer design amuse other people? I don't think anyone is actually getting worked up, we just aren't crazy about the 556 and the big "non OCD" differences between it and the 416.
But if you like the 556 and you find it just as good as the 416 and superior to the G36 then by all means continue to be happy with it.
Thing about the G36 is simply nobody has provided any meaningful reason it is better than an AR, or, for that matter, the HK 416/MR556 AR platform.
And I noticed you didn't either.
Thing about the G36 is simply nobody has provided any meaningful reason it is better than an AR, or, for that matter, the HK 416/MR556 AR platform.
And I noticed you didn't either.
For me it is not about what is "better". That is a very subjective assessment when comparing the current high-quality MSR offerings. All of my firearms, save for about three, are extraneous toys that I like owning for my own personal reference collection.
Personally, I like cool toys....a semiauto civilian legal G36 is just that; a cool toy.
MountainRaven
11-29-13, 21:37
Thing about the G36 is simply nobody has provided any meaningful reason it is better than an AR, or, for that matter, the HK 416/MR556 AR platform.
And I noticed you didn't either.
Nor are they likely to, since the reasons stated are not meaningful to you.
The reasons might be meaningful to someone else, but not to you.
No offense, but I think you're trying to troll us, here, what with you stating the same thing over and over with a simple rearrangement of the word order.
If you don't like it, that's fine. We get it. Stop saying it.
Thing about the G36 is simply nobody has provided any meaningful reason it is better than an AR, or, for that matter, the HK 416/MR556 AR platform.
And I noticed you didn't either.
Is my Winchester Garand better than an AR? Is my M1917 better than an AR? How about my M1 Carbine?
The correct answer, in part, would depend on my intended use and how proficient I am with them. Regardless of whether they are better or not, "I" continue to respect and enjoy them for a bunch of different reasons. Just as I do my other various rifles and pistols.
Define better? Better can be a very personal statement. A G36 just might fit you better than an AR and therefore you just might shoot it more accurately.
Does that make it better? Only you can define and ultimately determine what is better.......
SeriousStudent
11-29-13, 22:07
I'm glad somebody is amused, I'm not. Let's talk about the weapon, and stop the talk that is getting too close to baiting.
Or I'll be the one with OCD, close the thread and pass out some frownie faces.
ptmccain, I have been seeing you post a lot recently here and on HKPro under the name AMSDORF with your gratuitous selfie avatars, nothing you say has anything of substance, contributes nothing and always seems to be contentious.
I am not sure of your intent, but you may want to take a breath or two before speaking your mind.
Thing about the G36 is simply nobody has provided any meaningful reason it is better than an AR, or, for that matter, the HK 416/MR556 AR platform.
And I noticed you didn't either.
Wow. Really?
Maybe because everyone who would like to own a G36 is probably very well aware that the next generation HK rifle that was able to build upon lessons learned with the XM-8 and G36, that next generation rifle being the 416, is better than the G36 for most practical applications.
That is why you aren't seeing anyone say the 416 sucks and the G36 is better. But just because the G19 is a far more practical handgun than the HK PS9 doesn't mean there aren't people who want to own the PS9.
So let me give you what you've been dying to hear. I can't think of too many applications where the G36 would be superior to the 416. So now you can be happy and enjoy your Christmas, somebody has said it for you.
Sadly the MR556 is a long way from being a 416 and it looks like the semi G36 may or may not be a long way from being a G36. But IF the semi G36 can be configured to accept a G36 magazine well and standard furniture and they don't do anything retarded like add a big honking target match barrel then I'd take that rifle over the MR556 any day.
For me it is not about what is "better". That is a very subjective assessment when comparing the current high-quality MSR offerings. All of my firearms, save for about three, are extraneous toys that I like owning for my own personal reference collection.
Personally, I like cool toys....a semiauto civilian legal G36 is just that; a cool toy.
That's a perfectly fine reason to have it and I completely understand. I'm simply trying to identify any features or benefits of the G36 that would make it preferable to the HK 416/MR556 and so far your answer is the only response that makes any sense.
I apologize if my questions have come off as "trolling"
I'm sincerely trying to learn what features of the G36 would make it preferable to an AR.
The folding stock is a nice feature.
Maybe because everyone who would like to own a G36 is probably very well aware that the next generation HK rifle that was able to build upon lessons learned with the XM-8 and G36, that next generation rifle being the 416, is better than the G36 for most practical applications.
I thought the 416 is built upon the experience everyone else had with the M16... and that it exists is HKs acknowledgement that the future, at least for the time being, lies in a different direction than the G36.
416 was developed because somebody wanted a better M4 and asked H&K to design one. Not because H&K thinks it is the future of small arms. If anything, that is what 416 is: it is a better M4, nothing more nothing less.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-30-13, 16:28
Right. If I recall correctly H&K had just finished debugging the SA-80 for the British military and were looking to showcase their engineering department by debugging the M16. This happened about the same time that Delta was looking for something more reliable than the Colt Commandos they were running. Add a few other things and some crazy bastards flying planes into the WTC and you have the 416.
ptmccain, I have been seeing you post a lot recently here and on HKPro under the name AMSDORF with your gratuitous selfie avatars, nothing you say has anything of substance, contributes nothing and always seems to be contentious. I am not sure of your intent, but you may want to take a breath or two before speaking your mind.
ptmccain = AMSDORF?
Ah, it all makes sense now.
Back OT, I'm glad HK is at least making the attempt to get civie versions of their rifles to the US market. I don't agree with some of the changes they've made in doing so in the case of the MR556, but at least it's still an HK.
I feel like that no matter what HK put out it would be met with harsh criticism.
I like the new design. I like the g36 conversions. I'm not a purist so maybe I just don't "get it."
Moose-Knuckle
11-30-13, 19:28
How difficult is it for a manufacture to put out a product in a configuration THAT THEY ALREADY MAKE for civilian sales (non-NFA). It’s like these companies go out of their way, spend more money that is ultimately passed on to the consumer on non-standard parts and accessories. IMHO its common sense to offer a basic rifle configured like what has been around for decades and then offer other parts and accessories for the platform. Take ARs for example, the vast majority of consumers buy a factory AR with standard M4 buttstock, handguards, A2 grip, birdcage, etc. and then they configure it to their personal taste.
Charlie Don't Surf
11-30-13, 19:32
Definitely glad HK is bringing this to the market, only problem for them is it is 10 years late, post AWB the market would have gone ape for this.
Since we're talking about the MR556 why won't they just chrome line the barrel?
Being that the 293 is planned on being chambered in .223, should we expect this not to be chrome lined as well?
The MR556 is based on the European civilian version, the MR223. MR meaning match rifle, as in civilian rifle, as opposed to a "weapon of war." The whole weapon of war thing is based on a modern German/Euro politically correct outlook. Since the gun is a "match rifle" that is not going to see the heavy wear or harsh conditions of a military weapon, they prefer the barrel be unchromed, since it allows it to shoot tighter groups and helps their argument that it is a match rifle and not a weapon of war(I can't find the extreme rolly eye icon).
As for the .223, that is also a European thing. Sometimes they would label guns .223 since it is a civilian caliber, as opposed to 5.56 since it is a military caliber. Some countries restrict military calibers. They may label the gun as .223 even though the gun may indeed be chambered in 5.56mm. I know the Steyr AUG does this.
How difficult is it for a manufacture to put out a product in a configuration THAT THEY ALREADY MAKE for civilian sales (non-NFA). It’s like these companies go out of their way, spend more money that is ultimately passed on to the consumer on non-standard parts and accessories. IMHO its common sense to offer a basic rifle configured like what has been around for decades and then offer other parts and accessories for the platform. Take ARs for example, the vast majority of consumers buy a factory AR with standard M4 buttstock, handguards, A2 grip, birdcage, etc. and then they configure it to their personal taste.
Whatever configuration HK sells to civilians have to be approved by the German government. Even products that are imported or produced in the US must have approval.
Quite simple. The sales of firearms for the most part has dropped. Specifically AR's and related items. People have spent a lot of money during the panic and with all the current stuff happening they are being more cautious. Had they had these ready for sale earlier this year they probably could have sold all of them since people were buying anything black with large capacity magazines.
This will appeal to HK collectors or possibly collectors in general but I doubt that the general shooting public or semi-auto shooters be falling all over themselves. For the record I am not an HK hater. My first long gun was in fact an HK93 purchased from my recruiter in 1986 for the sum of 350.00 dollars.
HK has a reputation of making some good stuff but due to politics or whatever have had to modify them in such a way that the sex appeal is lost.
What does the NOBama induced panic have to do with them releasing a new rifle to the US? Certainly you aren't suggesting all MFG's cease new product introductions?
In fairness, I view this as extremely positive and creative, given the restrictions they operate under in each Country.
Amen! I can't imagine only owning and shooting a single platform of any kind.
Because Bushmaster can't even produce a good AR and yet they were entrusted with producing the ACR. The price was way off mark, and then they made stupid changes (immediately the 1/9 comes to mind) as well as being behind in the release.
His comment about Remington was the fact that the Remington version is much more refined and what people probably wanted to see, but alas civilians probably won't see it.
Were off topic, but I just couldn't resist. I am somewhat familiar with the ACR and I really don't get your hostility. It is very much the rifle Masada was supposed to be. Gun works extremely well. One could see the barrel with its profile (M4 1/9) as a bad choice but since it is basically an AR barrel it shouldn't be too hard to reprofile or switch to another spec barrel. What doesn't work is BM's inability to bring caliber conversion kits and other accessories to the market, but I think that is not relevant.
Also, I wouldn't worry about BM not being a Remington. All ACR's are made in the Remington facility at Ilion NY.
How difficult is it for a manufacture to put out a product in a configuration THAT THEY ALREADY MAKE for civilian sales (non-NFA). It’s like these companies go out of their way, spend more money that is ultimately passed on to the consumer on non-standard parts and accessories. IMHO its common sense to offer a basic rifle configured like what has been around for decades and then offer other parts and accessories for the platform. Take ARs for example, the vast majority of consumers buy a factory AR with standard M4 buttstock, handguards, A2 grip, birdcage, etc. and then they configure it to their personal taste.
It is EXTREMELY difficult for a German Company to export rifles out of Germany because of German Law. It is made even more difficult due to our import laws as well. All of these restrictions mean time, money and normally unnecessary (and expensive) changes to the existing platform.
I am sure HK, for cost reasons alone, would love to just ship a semi only, unchanged G36. It would be far easier and a lot less expensive. Laws on both sides make this impossible.
Moose-Knuckle
11-30-13, 21:37
Whatever configuration HK sells to civilians have to be approved by the German government. Even products that are imported or produced in the US must have approval.
It is EXTREMELY difficult for a German Company to export rifles out of Germany because of German Law. It is made even more difficult due to our import laws as well. All of these restrictions mean time, money and normally unnecessary (and expensive) changes to the existing platform.
I am sure HK, for cost reasons alone, would love to just ship a semi only, unchanged G36. It would be far easier and a lot less expensive. Laws on both sides make this impossible.
Thank you both for clarifying, I was unaware of the asinine regulations involved.
I thought the 416 is built upon the experience everyone else had with the M16... and that it exists is HKs acknowledgement that the future, at least for the time being, lies in a different direction than the G36.
http://www.hk-usa.com/military_products/hk416_general.asp
The HK416 (5.56 mm) was developed by Heckler & Koch for U.S. special operations forces as a major product improvement of M4/M16-type carbines and rifles. Using the HK-proprietary gas piston system found on the G36, the HK416 does not introduce propellant gases and carbon fouling back into the weapon’s interior, making it the most reliable of any M4/M16 type weapon.
It is EXTREMELY difficult for a German Company to export rifles out of Germany because of German Law. It is made even more difficult due to our import laws as well. All of these restrictions mean time, money and normally unnecessary (and expensive) changes to the existing platform.
I am sure HK, for cost reasons alone, would love to just ship a semi only, unchanged G36. It would be far easier and a lot less expensive. Laws on both sides make this impossible.
Which, I would guess, is the driving force for different manufactures to set up production facilities here in the US. A few examples come to mind; Arsenal and my Steyr AUG and Beretta is/was supposed to be setting up a line for the ARX. CZ is supposedly on a five year plan to set up mfg of the Bren 805. Apparently there are many hoops to jump through. I'm sure many here know much more about this than I do.
Because Bushmaster can't even produce a good AR and yet they were entrusted with producing the ACR.
His comment about Remington was the fact that the Remington version is much more refined and what people probably wanted to see, but alas civilians probably won't see it.
ACR has very little to do AR's so why bring them into the discussion. Also, as said, ACR's are made in Ilion NY. Remington guns are made on the same production line and in all the versions that they have all components that are different are modular and fully interchangeable with BM guns afaik. Remington and BM sell the same gun with diffirent options. Only real difference is BM handles civilian sales and Remington governement sales. And I am not a civilian so no need to bring that up either. And from what I know I see no reason to think civilians couldn't understand what a good gun is, or be specialists in firearms. Eugene Stoner never served, did he?
I think something is getting lost in translation. I am clarifying what was said by someone else in which you said you didn't understand certain statements. The Bushmaster ACR and the Remington one I saw at SHOT were decidedly different, maybe I missed something.
I wasn't bringing up anything about YOU being a civilian.
Yes, Eugene Stoner in fact served in the USMC during WWII. Not sure if it's and English to Finnish translation issue or what.
ACR has very little to do AR's so why bring them into the discussion. Also, as said, ACR's are made in Ilion NY. Remington guns are made on the same production line and in all the versions that they have all components that are different are modular and fully interchangeable with BM guns afaik. Remington and BM sell the same gun with diffirent options. Only real difference is BM handles civilian sales and Remington governement sales. And I am not a civilian so no need to bring that up either. And from what I know I see no reason to think civilians couldn't understand what a good gun is, or be specialists in firearms. Eugene Stoner never served, did he?
Probably something lost in translation, but nevermind, it was muchos OT anyway. On to the right track, let's talk H&K....
Army Chief
12-01-13, 10:17
Dated or not, AR or not, clunky or not, I still find the G36 to be at least as interesting to me as any of the current SCAR or ACR derivatives. Unlike most of the others (and internet hyperbole aside), the G36 also has a pretty substantial and verifiable service history.
What remains to be seen is just how faithfully the commercial 293 is going to conform to the current/correct G36 standard. If HK can deliver a true "semi-auto" G36, rather than some kind of transmogrified look-alike or adaptation, I think that a lot of folks will sit up and take notice. Yes, the gun is still five years too late, but then again, so is the Magpul PDR. ;)
Thread-wise, I'm not really sure where else we are really left to go with all of this until a few more details are released. Seems like we've already managed to wander pretty far off into the weeds ...
AC
Looking forward to seeing these rifles appear stateside, I've wanted a G36 since I was a snot nosed teenage girl who knew next to nothing about semi auto guns. This is pretty exciting stuff.
Sort of on topic: Who else has watched the Colin Farrell/Jamie Foxx Miami Vice movie and now wants a G36 after seeing the bomb/hostage scene in the trailer? :cool:
Sort of on topic: Who else has watched the Colin Farrell/Jamie Foxx Miami Vice movie and now wants a G36 after seeing the bomb/hostage scene in the trailer? :cool:
Definitely if it has Elizabeth Rodriguez attached to it
Army Chief
12-04-13, 06:58
Sort of on topic: Who else has watched the Colin Farrell/Jamie Foxx Miami Vice movie and now wants a G36 after seeing the bomb/hostage scene in the trailer? :cool:
Mostly not on-topic.
C'mon, man.
AC
Magic_Salad0892
12-04-13, 08:55
Is the G36's frame reinforced with steel inserts? Or is it 100% polymer? What is the barrel attachment point like? All plastic? Steel?
Is the G36's frame reinforced with steel inserts? Or is it 100% polymer? What is the barrel attachment point like? All plastic? Steel?
Not sure, but I'd assume steel reinforcements like the Glock.
Here is what wiki has to say...
The G36 employs a free-floating barrel (the barrel does not contact the handguard). The barrel is fastened to the receiver with a special nut, which can be removed with a wrench. The barrel is produced using a cold hammer forging process and features a chrome-lined bore with 6 right-hand grooves and a 1 in 178 mm (1:7 in) rifling twist rate. The barrel assembly consists of the gas block, a collar with a bayonet lug that is also used to launch rifle grenades and a slotted flash suppressor.
The G36 employs a large number of lightweight, corrosion-resistant synthetic materials in its design; the receiver housing, stock, trigger group (including the fire control selector and firing mechanism parts), magazine well, handguard and carry handle are all made of a carbon fiber-reinforced polyamide. The receiver has an integrated steel barrel trunnion (with locking recesses) and the reciprocating parts move on steel rails molded into the receiver (this feature was issued a US patent, number 5513461, authored by Helmut Weldle).
Super cool. I had a chance to shoot a full auto G36K and the trigger was hella heavy. Anyway, I am also curious as to a release timing and cost. Knowing HK, it's going to cost.
Either way, this is a good sign
Is the G36's frame reinforced with steel inserts? Or is it 100% polymer? What is the barrel attachment point like? All plastic? Steel?
It is reinforced by steel inserts. In HK they have some G36 made with translucent polymer on display. I took some photos while I was in Oberndorf. I can try to dig them up.
As far as I remember, there is steel bar (with series of holes drilled) that goes along receiver on opposite side to ejection port. Barrel attachment point is steel cylinder moulded into receiver.
BTW I can not believe how long I was able not to post in this thread. Whole 7 pages! :cool:
Magic_Salad0892
12-08-13, 15:32
It is reinforced by steel inserts. In HK they have some G36 made with translucent polymer on display. I took some photos while I was in Oberndorf. I can try to dig them up.
As far as I remember, there is steel bar (with series of holes drilled) that goes along receiver on opposite side to ejection port. Barrel attachment point is steel cylinder moulded into receiver.
BTW I can not believe how long I was able not to post in this thread. Whole 7 pages! :cool:
That would be ultra helpful, man.
Easily one of the most informative members here.
That would be ultra helpful, man.
Easily one of the most informative members here.
If you google search you will find the images. They are (or were) pretty ubiquitous. I believe you can find it on HK Pro.
Sondermeldung! Lieber H&K- Die grosse Waffenpanik in Amerika ist vorbei. Sie sind leider zu spaet gekommen. Vielleicht im 2016?
Nein.
If Hk didn't have rails we'd bitch. I think it's just easy to bitch at and about Hk.
If you google search you will find the images. They are (or were) pretty ubiquitous. I believe you can find it on HK Pro.
I found this searching Google for "HK Gray Room". It is posted in the HK Pro HK Gray Room thread.
21960
Link: http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7159/dsc04246b.jpg
I found this searching Google for "HK Gray Room". It is posted in the HK Pro HK Gray Room thread.
21960
Link: http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7159/dsc04246b.jpg
Here you can see barrel mounting interface.
On this picture you can see other side with receiver reinforcement.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Oberndorf/image002_zpsd55cef60.jpg
Hunter Rose
12-09-13, 10:19
If Hk didn't have rails we'd bitch. I think it's just easy to bitch at and about Hk.
Right you are sir. Barring more information, from appearance the HK293 has all the latests upgrades from HK i.e. quad rail forearm, collapsible/foldable buttstock w/ adjustable cheekpiece, NATO magwell, etc. Decked out in this fashion it would be the G36 equivalent to the HK416A5 (meaning all the latests bells and whistles). People bitch that they can't get the latests and greatest HK416A5 configuration, but when HK appears to be releasing a civi G36 in the latests and greatest configuration people bitch because it doesn't have the "classic" G36 looks.
HK just can never win. Haters gonna hate I guess.
I have to agree about all the bitching/moaning/whining... We suck, they hate us, blah blah blah...
Personally, IF the 293 is compatible with all the original G36 furniture and magwells, then I believe the version show in pictures will be the best possible configuration in which to sell the rifle. The folks that want to use G36 magazines(lets not kid ourselves, there won't be that many in comparison) will hopefully be able to source an original magwell. The older parts to get the nostalgic look should be easier to find than the new stock, rail, etc.
We'll just have to wait and see on the big IF.
I agree. If the mag well purists were right and everyone really wanted original type mags, the Sig 556 series wouldn't be so easy to find these days. I see one or two in most local gun shops. They wouldn't still be there after all this time unless there was demand enough that they keep selling.
I understand the appeal of wanting original mags, but for the broader population of rifle buyers who don't read up on these details or post on gun forums, AR mags are going to be more appealing.
I have to agree about all the bitching/moaning/whining... We suck, they hate us, blah blah blah...
Personally, IF the 293 is compatible with all the original G36 furniture and magwells, then I believe the version show in pictures will be the best possible configuration in which to sell the rifle. The folks that want to use G36 magazines(lets not kid ourselves, there won't be that many in comparison) will hopefully be able to source an original magwell. The older parts to get the nostalgic look should be easier to find than the new stock, rail, etc.
We'll just have to wait and see on the big IF.
My thoughts exactly.
I agree. If the mag well purists were right and everyone really wanted original type mags, the Sig 556 series wouldn't be so easy to find these days. I see one or two in most local gun shops. They wouldn't still be there after all this time unless there was demand enough that they keep selling.
I understand the appeal of wanting original mags, but for the broader population of rifle buyers who don't read up on these details or post on gun forums, AR mags are going to be more appealing.
The 556 is widespread for the same reason DPMS is widespread. Lets hope the ONLY attribute shared with the 556 is the magazine.
I might have missed it earlier in the thread but how is this G36 offering different than the original aside from the magwell and collapsible stock? I know there are rails but I think that's more of an accessory than a large design change. I thought I saw mention of a bolt release but was that actually added to the rifle or was that just someone typing too quickly?
That is soo cool.
Looks like one of those airsoft guns.
Would love to see a translucent weapon during an actual firing cycle. Cyclic would be even better.
I'd buy one. I just had the chance to shoot the G36KE when I qualified for the Schuetzenschnur.
I like seeing HK trying to cater to a larger market with the STANAG magwell and the improved features over the traditional G36. Looks like it'll appeal to more people than just the HK purists.
Would love to see a translucent weapon during an actual firing cycle. Cyclic would be even better.
I was told that translucent versions (I also fondled translucent MP7A1) are working firearms, but they are not good for high volume of use or hard use, due to significantly polymer. Those are made mostly as show pieces.
I might have missed it earlier in the thread but how is this G36 offering different than the original aside from the magwell and collapsible stock? I know there are rails but I think that's more of an accessory than a large design change. I thought I saw mention of a bolt release but was that actually added to the rifle or was that just someone typing too quickly?
Collapsible stock has also adjustable cheek rest. This is big improvement for using optics. There is also bolt release, that become standard in G36 some time ago (I think it was introduced with special version for Norway KSK). I actually do not like HK STANAG magwell, as it has magazine release only on left side. Spuhr version is better. But with new, slimline G36 mags I would like standard magwell with enlarged mag release.
I actually do not like HK STANAG magwell, as it has magazine release only on left side. Spuhr version is better. But with new, slimline G36 mags I would like standard magwell with enlarged mag release.
That is odd, usually if the magwell only has one release they seem to be on the right side or one those AK style releases. I wonder what the thinking was behind putting it on the left?
That is odd, usually if the magwell only has one release they seem to be on the right side or one those AK style releases. I wonder what the thinking was behind putting it on the left?
I'm not entirely sure there was any thinking. Putting it on left side is just easier thing to do. Unfortunately HK designers are not big on weapons manipulation themselves (actually it is problem of several firearms manufacturers, at least in Europe) and adapter was made in response to some end-user request, that did not specified anything more than just being able to use STANAG mags. Spuhr adapter is ambi (might have something to do with fact that Hakan Spuhr shoots a lot and he is good at it).
I wonder if we'll get to see the Spuhr in the states or if it's already here? Regardless I'm still excited to hear that this rifle may be coming next year.
New info on the HK 243 which I'm guessing will carry over into the HK 293. The HK 243 will come in two versions: the S SAR with fixed irons, polymer hand guard and a polymer sight rail, and the S TAR with folding irons, aluminum sight rail, and an aluminum hand guard with smooth sides but full length rails on the top and bottom. Sure hope the S TAR comes to the states with the HK key mod instead of how it's set up right now but I'll take it over the version with a polymer sight rail. Sure hope this doesn't turn into the SL8.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/03/11/hk-hk243-sar-tar-semi-automatic-g36-rifle-lot-exclusive-photos/
teutonicpolymer
03-11-14, 18:39
I am hoping the US gets something like the S SAR version and the price is not ridiculous (less than $1500). Being able to see the irons through an Aimpoint would also be a plus.
Hopefully I am not setting myself up for disappointment here like wishing HK would reintroduce the USP Expert .45 instead of just the 9mm, or wishing for an HK45 Expert...
I would also strongly prefer the NATO mag well despite what everyone else says. Also hoping it is like a .223 Wylde chamber and not a true .223 chamber that prohibits 5.56 usage.
I am hoping the US gets something like the S SAR version and the price is not ridiculous (less than $1500). Being able to see the irons through an Aimpoint would also be a plus.
Hopefully I am not setting myself up for disappointment here like wishing HK would reintroduce the USP Expert .45 instead of just the 9mm, or wishing for an HK45 Expert...
I would also strongly prefer the NATO mag well despite what everyone else says. Also hoping it is like a .223 Wylde chamber and not a true .223 chamber that prohibits 5.56 usage.
While I would love a sub-$1500 293, this is never going to happen. I also suspect the chamber will be 5.56x45 spec, despite being marked 223. This is common on Euro rifles.
Interesting.....
Would be nice to actually see a HK rifle below $2k. I'd like to think it would be with all that polymer.
Lets be honest guys, you are out of your mind if you think itll be under $1500, im thinking it will be closer to $3k than $2k if not $3k+. Hell their mr556 is going for close to $3k.
Lets be honest guys, you are out of your mind if you think itll be under $1500, im thinking it will be closer to $3k than $2k if not $3k+. Hell their mr556 is going for close to $3k.
If that's the case I'll just consider a MR556. Then again, the MR556 has been out for a while and I still haven't seriously considered it......
So, I guess I won't be getting any HK rifles unless they can actually produce one for under $2k. Considering the simplicity of stamped steel G-series, and the newer polymer bodied UMP and G36, realistically they should be equal or cheaper in price to a quality M4.
Expected prices (w/o sales tax) in Germany are for HK 243 S SAR - 1400 EUR and for HK 243 S TAR 1885 EUR. Current price for MR223 (with less in box that MR556 has) is (w/o tax) around 2450 EUR. Comparing this, looks like prices for HK 293 S SAR probably really will be under $2000 and HK 293 S TAR probably tad over $2000.
Expected prices (w/o sales tax) in Germany are for HK 243 S SAR - 1400 EUR and for HK 243 S TAR 1885 EUR. Current price for MR223 (with less in box that MR556 has) is (w/o tax) around 2450 EUR. Comparing this, looks like prices for HK 293 S SAR probably really will be under $2000 and HK 293 S TAR probably tad over $2000.
Well if that's the case I would be seriously interested. I hope they can bring it in close to those price points.
CharlieDeltaJuliet
03-12-14, 14:36
I love my Hk rifles.. I will tell you I was excited to hear about this. I figure the bolt will be something like the MR556 (with a groove) so the barrel tab can fit only it. It is easy peasy to remove. I had recently removed mine and it will now accept a 416 BCG. I am looking forward to it. As long as it is 3k or under I will buy one... I still believe Hk make some of the best firearms(with a couple exceptions), for longevity, accuracy and build quality.
After all these two are getting lonely..
http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff464/ChadJohnson1976/Firearms/IMG_4376.jpg
teutonicpolymer
03-12-14, 21:35
I do not think there would even be a point in HK making it if it was priced close to $3k in that very few people would buy it...
If it was under $2k I could see it being sold in reasonable quantities if the configuration is decent- it would then be competing with the 16s, tavor, aug, etc. At or under $1500 it would be a real winner though.
Hope the pricing holds true on these maybe PPP is empirically supportable.
CharlieDeltaJuliet
03-13-14, 09:51
I just hope that they produce more a year than the MR556. They just didn't produce enough of the. In the past couple years. I had heard of people being on a waiting list for a year. I lucked up and bought mine on Dec 14th 2012. I had them hold it and was going to pick it up on the 13th, but got overwhelmed with work. About an hour into my two hour trip to pick it up my wife called and told me to turn on the radio. I was listening to breaking news on Newtown..
A couple months later people were paying $6k,7k, & even 8k for them.... Total insanity... To me it was well worth the $2600 I paid for it, but not 6-8k...
My long winded point is, it will be supply and demand. I hope Hk ramps up production, but I won't hold my breath..
When are they going to import their civilian MP5 that they applied for?
Wait.....what?
Wait.....what?
About same time HK applied to German "ATF" (BKA) for permission to sell HK 243 (Europe) and HK 293 (US) for civilians, they applied also for new civi MP5 (also in pistol configuration). HK 243 was presented but they remain thigh-lipped on civi-MP5.
BTW For 243/293 HK applied for all G36 barrel length variant (including 9"), but BKA refused them license to make anything shorter than 14.5", because of "lack of sport on hunting purpose". So for now HK decided to stick with 16.5" barrel, as "universal length" that is legal to sell on most markets.
About same time HK applied to German "ATF" (BKA) for permission to sell HK 243 (Europe) and HK 293 (US) for civilians, they applied also for new civi MP5 (also in pistol configuration). HK 243 was presented but they remain thigh-lipped on civi-MP5.
BTW For 243/293 HK applied for all G36 barrel length variant (including 9"), but BKA refused them license to make anything shorter than 14.5", because of "lack of sport on hunting purpose". So for now HK decided to stick with 16.5" barrel, as "universal length" that is legal to sell on most markets.
Holy dog shit! That would be huge, nevermind the fact that PTRs customer base has been screaming to make a clone, we could have the real thing again and no more 4-7k price tag.
Academic question:
I remember the old HK numbering scheme, a 3 at the end meant 5.56mm, and a 9 meant rifle or something like that. The old HK93 was a rifle, and the HK53 was a short carbine. 4 meant 9mm, so an HK94 was a 9mm rifle.
Is the "2" in this number (HK 293) referring to the 2nd production rifle in 5.56mm?
Academic question:
I remember the old HK numbering scheme, a 3 at the end meant 5.56mm, and a 9 meant rifle or something like that. The old HK93 was a rifle, and the HK53 was a short carbine. 4 meant 9mm, so an HK94 was a 9mm rifle.
Is the "2" in this number (HK 293) referring to the 2nd production rifle in 5.56mm?
Maybe. HK93 was name for US, while in Germany they used HK43. So going to HK 243 S (Europe) and HK 293 S (US) seem to follow same pattern. Maybe HK revives old fashion of numbering civilian products?
Holy dog shit! That would be huge, nevermind the fact that PTRs customer base has been screaming to make a clone, we could have the real thing again and no more 4-7k price tag.
Govt pricing in the early 2000s(when we used MP5s) was $925 for a select fire MP5. So, realistically a stamped steel civilian MP5 "should" cost in the same price range as a typical AR......especially since they are easier to manufacture than a AR. If it is closer to $2k, then the customer is likely getting screwed somewhere.
To me it was well worth the $2600 I paid for it, but not 6-8k...
Just curious as to why you feel it was worth the price you paid. Could not a $1500 top tier AR manufacturer fill your need just as well?
CharlieDeltaJuliet
03-17-14, 12:47
Yes and no. Under normal circumstances, yes, under lots of "canned" shooting and less lubrication , no. I shoot many types of ammo, and 40-50% of the time shoot it suppressed. While I know the HK's shine with a short barrel, it still works cleaner and dryer than my 6920.
I will never knock a DI rifle. They have the advantage of simplicity and interchangeability. I just seen the difference in a Piston gun when I was able to shoot a demo 416 with a near by SWAT team a few years ago. It opened my eyes on a good piston system. Now I own two piston guns plus one upper and 4 DI rifles. All have their purpose.
Plus it is my opinion on the value of a rifle to my use. It might not be worth it to you, but neither of us are right or wrong when it is an opinion.
Also if I am going to pay $1500-$2000 for a top tier (LaRue, LMT, or another DD) to me it was worth the extra coin for a Tier 1 piston rifle. I already had a CMMG, Colt,DD, and RRA Varmint.
Magic_Salad0892
03-18-14, 18:28
Was it ever determined if these civi G36 guns would have the upgrades that the German Army was offered? Or will they still have all the wandering zero issues?
Was it ever determined if these civi G36 guns would have the upgrades that the German Army was offered? Or will they still have all the wandering zero issues?
I just noticed that they don't have the XM8 style controls that were offered on the G36KV. That sucks.
I digged up pile of papers brought back from IWA. Here is HK flyer on HK 243 S, together with MSRP for Germany (including 19% sales tax):
24501
Magic_Salad0892
03-20-14, 03:30
I digged up pile of papers brought back from IWA. Here is HK flyer on HK 243 S, together with MSRP for Germany (including 19% sales tax):
24501
That top one with a short handguard and barrel would be awesome. HK might not actually screw this up. I'd even pick up a few of HK's translucent AR mags for it just to be cool.
... I'm actually kind of excited.
Yes and no. Under normal circumstances, yes, under lots of "canned" shooting and less lubrication , no. I shoot many types of ammo, and 40-50% of the time shoot it suppressed. While I know the HK's shine with a short barrel, it still works cleaner and dryer than my 6920.
I will never knock a DI rifle. They have the advantage of simplicity and interchangeability. I just seen the difference in a Piston gun when I was able to shoot a demo 416 with a near by SWAT team a few years ago. It opened my eyes on a good piston system. Now I own two piston guns plus one upper and 4 DI rifles. All have their purpose.
Plus it is my opinion on the value of a rifle to my use. It might not be worth it to you, but neither of us are right or wrong when it is an opinion.
Also if I am going to pay $1500-$2000 for a top tier (LaRue, LMT, or another DD) to me it was worth the extra coin for a Tier 1 piston rifle. I already had a CMMG, Colt,DD, and RRA Varmint.
I am tempted. I have never been disappointed with H&K quality. I think the only thing that makes me "meh" about the MR556 is the heavy sporter barrel without chrome lining. What do you think of it? Also, what mods have you done and what was the purpose of them?
CharlieDeltaJuliet
03-26-14, 12:42
Well Hk claims it is due to accuracy. That an unlined barrel is more accurate than a lined barrel. As far as longevity, I shot a MR556 in Georgia that had over 35,000 rounds through it. It still shot surprisingly good. That is what changed my mind. I honestly think it is the best made, factory AR style rifle. This is just my opinion.
Now as far as the weight, It isn't as bad as I thought. It is a nose heavy beast. I have an Aimpoint PRO on mine. It is as accurate as any 16" AR I have ever shot. The only mods I have done is removing the barrel tab that is there to stop a 416 BCG from being used. I purchased the rifle with all intention of trading it to a friend. I decided to shoot it, when I did, I fell in love with it. I have a Sig (V2) 516, and it is a good all around rifle, but lacks the accuracy and quality of the HK.
HK won't even sell shorty MR 556 uppers, so I doubt we will see a G36C, and if we did, it would be $3k at least.
This is the model I would need to part with my dollars.
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/ss13/huge/P1110094.jpg
Well Hk claims it is due to accuracy. That an unlined barrel is more accurate than a lined barrel. As far as longevity, I shot a MR556 in Georgia that had over 35,000 rounds through it. It still shot surprisingly good. That is what changed my mind. I honestly think it is the best made, factory AR style rifle. This is just my opinion.
Now as far as the weight, It isn't as bad as I thought. It is a nose heavy beast. I have an Aimpoint PRO on mine. It is as accurate as any 16" AR I have ever shot. The only mods I have done is removing the barrel tab that is there to stop a 416 BCG from being used. I purchased the rifle with all intention of trading it to a friend. I decided to shoot it, when I did, I fell in love with it. I have a Sig (V2) 516, and it is a good all around rifle, but lacks the accuracy and quality of the HK.
Hrmm, I wonder if anybody can do a medium contour barrel modification to a MR556.....
This guy is highly recommended on another board. Has done a bunch of work, with guys reporting very little, if any loss of accuracy.
http://www.investmentgradefirearms.com/?p=2151
CharlieDeltaJuliet
03-30-14, 09:44
Agree with Mattg1024 100%. I have seen some if the work from IGF, very good quality.
Mauser KAR98K
03-30-14, 11:10
Any word if this is going to be chambered in .223 or 5.56?
Any word if this is going to be chambered in .223 or 5.56?
Says 5.56 in the pic that Spec posted.
HK won't even sell shorty MR 556 uppers, so I doubt we will see a G36C, and if we did, it would be $3k at least.
You will not see. BKA refused to grant HK license to sell anything shorter that 14.5" on European (HK 243 S) or US (HK 293 S) market for "lack of sporting purpose". HK applied for 9".
So HK decided to stay with 16.5" version as this barrel length is easiest to sell on most markets. Maybe 14.5" will follow, as MR223 is now available in 14.5" version as well.
Any word if this is going to be chambered in .223 or 5.56?
HK barrels (and chambers) are C.I.P. proofed. That means they are (per US standards) 5.56 even if it says ".223rem" on rifle (like in case of MR223). Same chamber specs for both here, same max and working pressures.
Dirtyboy333
03-10-15, 20:42
so any updates on this? Is this thing coming to the market or is it just another Unicorn
HK 243 S is already on sale in Europe. How long it will take HK to fight over red tape to bring HK 293 S to US? Hard to tell.
Dirtyboy333
03-11-15, 10:43
yeah, that's basically what I'm asking. But wouldn't they just have to assemble it here with American barrel or something like the mr556
MR556 is basically AR15. Not hard to find someone to subcontract making quality AR15 lower, upper, trigger etc. How many companies in US manufacture G36 receivers? ;)
So HK either have to find a way to import "complete" rifles and then "922r" them or setup serious manufacturing capability in US to make receivers and most of other parts.
Dirtyboy333
03-11-15, 15:48
Oh ok. So the mr556 receivers are subcontracted? What about the scar receivers? Are they made by FN? Shipped over or? I know we have some strict import laws but it doesn't seem like it would be be too difficult especially since hk has its feet planted here. I really want this rifle.
Oh ok. So the mr556 receivers are subcontracted? What about the scar receivers? Are they made by FN? Shipped over or? I know we have some strict import laws but it doesn't seem like it would be be too difficult especially since hk has its feet planted here. I really want this rifle.
I don't think the problem is "here", it is there....as in the German govt won't allow HK exports to the USA.
While I think the Belgium govt doesn't have a problem with FN exporting the SCARs, FS2000's to the USA.
Dirtyboy333
03-11-15, 16:35
Oh ok. Makes sense. Thanks.
MR556 is basically AR15. Not hard to find someone to subcontract making quality AR15 lower, upper, trigger etc. How many companies in US manufacture G36 receivers? ;)
So HK either have to find a way to import "complete" rifles and then "922r" them or setup serious manufacturing capability in US to make receivers and most of other parts.
Or HK could use the same US facility they use to make polymer HK45c frames to make HK293 polymer parts...
Dirtyboy333
03-11-15, 16:42
Thats true. Also Are the sl8 receivers the same? Could they just import them under German law?
Dirtyboy333
03-11-15, 16:47
Thinking hk just didn't see the profit margins they would have liked considering our country loves the AR and is already flooded with them. Outside of enthusiast there probably wouldn't be very many buyers in the US
I don't think the problem is "here", it is there....as in the German govt won't allow HK exports to the USA.
German BKA approved HK 293 S for sale in US as "sporting rifle". Problem is mostly with US import restrictions. And while HK did shipped molds for HK45 and HK45C frames, they did that at expense of ceasing making them in Germany (until last year). As to FN, they have nice, shiny and big facility in US, all payed by US taxpayers. This makes it easy for them to make several models in US. When XM-8 got ditched, so got HK plans to establish real factory in US.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-11-15, 23:46
Also, I think HK thinks (as I do) that the market for this rifle is pretty limited unless it is dirt cheap (which it won't be). It is certainly worth doing, but the likelihood of it being anything more than a boutique item is pretty low I would guess.
Dirtyboy333
03-12-15, 07:10
Yeah. That's sounds about right. I would buy one but that doesn't help much.
Also, I think HK thinks (as I do) that the market for this rifle is pretty limited unless it is dirt cheap (which it won't be). It is certainly worth doing, but the likelihood of it being anything more than a boutique item is pretty low I would guess.
I agree with this, I have many firearms. I have a love of German mechanical things (watches, cars, guns, tanks, ect.). I have the financial means to buy one.
But I wouldn't, its a lot of money for something that will be shot once or twice and sit in safe the rest of time, only to occasionally come out for a finger-banging in the living room while watching TV. Just kind of a waste for some thing just not that significant in the fire arms world. I'd buy a Scar, or even a Sig 551-a1 prior to this. (551-a1 interestingly no longer on their web site)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.