View Full Version : Why you should not use red loctite...a warning.
Eurodriver
11-26-13, 17:07
Many moons ago, a Lance Corporal Eurodriver police called Ali Al Salem airbase in Kuwait because a Marine had lost his PEQ15. We never found it, and for the rest of the deployment the PFC that lost it was "PEQ15". That stuck with me.
I didn't want to be that guy so once I started building my own weapons I used red loctite on everything. Blue just wasn't enough in my mind. That hasn't been a problem until now.
I have a Surefire 600C scout light in a Gear Sector mount that I haven't had mounted to a rifle in years. But now, I want to buy a rifle with MOE handguards and throw an IWC mount on it for the Surefire. I stripped 4 hex wrenches trying to remove the thing and finally had to just get drastic with it.
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/Untitled_zps43baf2bf.jpg
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/IMG_20131126_175321_887_zps29498924.jpg
I cut a flathead screwdriver slot in each of the screws and then torched the screws (with the lens, tailcap, and batteries removed of course)
Ruined the screws, and the integrity of the gear sector mount has been weakened (I wouldn't use it) all because I grabbed the red stuff instead of the blue stuff. I learned my lesson.
Hmm, I meant to put this in AR general. Whoops?
Heh! Next time, just drill the heads off
Red has it's place but it isn't small fasteners where 500 degree heat cannot be applied! GH
The actual title of this thread should be I know when to use the correct type of Loctite in the appropriate location. most people do not correctly degrease the screws and do the preparation and that's why the Loctite does not hold.
Eurodriver
11-26-13, 20:49
The actual title of this thread should be I know when to use the correct type of Loctite in the appropriate location. most people do not correctly degrease the screws and do the preparation and that's why the Loctite does not hold.
Obviously for engine parts, and other high temp jobs red loctite has its uses. I can only think of the gas block being a necessary place to use red on an AR15, however.
Oh, and the castle nut on my Oly, of course.
edit: I think I see what you're saying. When I said blue wasn't enough, I meant mentally. I never even gave it a chance. Its not like I had a blue loctited item ever fall off.
I'd be curious to see how a quick touch with the torch would have done. I have had zero issues using red for many things that most people use blue for. Pencil torch or soldering iron to heat the fastener and it's off. Iraqgunz is correct though, use the correct Loctite for the correct application and make sure you use it correctly.
There were ways to remove that without destroying it. First, using a soldering iron you can heat those screws super hot to release the loctite. Second, if that didn't work, they sell a cool little screw remover called a Grabbit. Combined with heat they will get most stuck screws out easily. Finally, the heads could have been drilled off and the shank removed with vice grips.
Countersunk screws like what you have there are very common on archery equipment. Even without red loctite the steel screws will bond with the aluminum with annoying strength. I have removed literally dozens of the screws like yours with the methods above.
However, I agree that red was not the right application in this case and blue would have worked fine.
I use Blue on anything that screws/bolts to my weapons, 90% of the time. Red fills the other 10%. I have NEVER, in 31 years behind the gun, have I ever had issues getting them loose. Heat, properly-fitting tools, and they come right apart. I'll never understand how people struggle with this? Maybe I've been lucky?
You want permanent? Loctite makes a purple formula. That stuff is forever. It is used to adhere cylinder sleeves inside engine blocks...
I've successfully removed (in re-usable condition) front night sights from Glocks that were red Lok-tited on.
Takes a little finesse, but it's doable...
Wait, so the problem is the OP didn't take the steps to properly remove fasteners in which red loctite was applied...and that turns into it MUST be the red loctite that was wrong?
Put down the dremel and use a heat gun. WTF?
A torch is the wrong tool.
Degreasing and not using the proper loctite is the issue.
I had an issue like this once, but it was not my fault... the factory installed front sight on my M1A SOCOM16 was immovable due to the set screw being excessively tight/loctited. I had to literally smash it off.
I think the reason a lot of people us red Loctite on guns is because they believe that the red is rated for higher temps, when its same as blue.
^ this....
Also, don't go by colors. There are only so many colors but scores of different grades. Go by the grade number. The descriptions of the grades and applications are easily searchable. For instance, I have never used a purple high strength Loctite, but I have used #222 low strength that is purple in color. I don't have the bottle in front of me, but I believe the higher temp one I use is 620, which is very thick and is green in color, it is also of medium strength.
It's not just red loctite...
I have too many red loc-tite horror stories from my past to recount so I'm using this opportunity to warn others of a seemingly benign threadlocker that many forum members prefer.
I started using Vibratite after getting a free little packet in a Gear Sector mount. I had read that it was easy to remove and reusable. So I picked up a larger tube of it for attaching sights, optics, grips, etc... Anyway, to make a long story short, I went to install a MOE K2 grip on one of my pistols the other night and found that the old screw would not budge. Unlike loctite that "breaks", Vibratite stays semi-gummy and will make the last turn of the screwdriver just as tough as the one before it. I'm a pretty strong guy and I almost gave myself a hernia trying to get my old grip off. Lesson learned. If you absolutely must use thread locker on a part, do so sparingly, regardless of its strength rating. I now only use a drop on grip screws and mounts and blue loctite on BAD and Noveske ambi safeties. These sorts of chemicals have no other place on a weapon IMO.
Failure2Stop
11-27-13, 07:14
Vibra-Tite for optic screws, 242 for attached accessories, nothing for long thread items like grip screws, lube for high-torque parts, rockset for muzzle devices.
Eurodriver
11-27-13, 07:24
Wait, so the problem is the OP didn't take the steps to properly remove fasteners in which red loctite was applied...and that turns into it MUST be the red loctite that was wrong?
Put down the dremel and use a heat gun. WTF?
I'd like to point out that I didn't have the proper tools to remove red loctite, and that I wouldn't have needed *any* tools if I didn't use it. I thought it was fairly well implied from my post that I knew I screwed up.
Vibra-Tite for optic screws, 242 for attached accessories, nothing for long thread items like grip screws, lube for high-torque parts, rockset for muzzle devices.
What would a "high torque" part be on an AR15? Barrel nut?
As noted further up, degreasing is critical.
Depending on how much oil or preservative is dripping off of an item I receive, I will use up to a three step degreasing/prep process. Gun scrubber (I have a handy little spring closed basket from Brownells to hold screws), Isopropyl Alcohol, and finally Loctite primer (also available from Brownells). The low and medium strength Loctite products are amazingly effective when both the male and female threads are truly oil free.
I also thoroughly clean my hands (or remove gloves) between the cleaning process and the assembly process.
All of this may sound a little obsessive, but is has been about 30 years since I have had something shoot loose.
PS. Also about 30 years ago, I learned the 271/red lesson and ended up drilling out the heads of some scope mount screws on a Model 700. I recall saying bad words.
Barrel nuts require grease to allow the required clamping loads to be generated for a given torque. Without grease the frictional loses in the threads rob much of the preload you need to keep the barrel from moving/loosening.
Failure2Stop
11-27-13, 08:23
What would a "high torque" part be on an AR15? Barrel nut?
Yes, at the installation level.
I was more commenting on general concept across the board of firearm/part assembly than AR15 specific.
I'd like to point out that I didn't have the proper tools to remove red loctite, and that I wouldn't have needed *any* tools if I didn't use it. I thought it was fairly well implied from my post that I knew I screwed up.
What would a "high torque" part be on an AR15? Barrel nut?
If you have any type of oven you could have done just fine. Take the o-rings off and put it in a oven set to 450. After 10 min try the screws. If no go, give it another 5-10 min and try again. Loctite will smoke slightly when breaking down.
There are loctite primers, but I prefer the primerless types. Loctite really only reaches its full strength when used on oxide steel. With stainless steel it will never reach its full strength unless you use a primer or primerless type. I had the same issue with using loctite on a Cerakoted KAC install. Since bother surfaces were Cerakoted, the loctite never seemed to do its chemical thing and setup. Switched to primerless red and worked like a charm. When I took the rail off, into the oven it went. Didn't even mar up the KAC barrel nut.
IMO a torch is the wrong tool. That much heat will/can discolor the metal. A heat gun or the oven will be more evenly applied.
Eurodriver
11-27-13, 08:44
If you have any type of oven you could have done just fine. Take the o-rings off and put it in a oven set to 450. After 10 min try the screws. If no go, give it another 5-10 min and try again. Loctite will smoke slightly when breaking down.
There are loctite primers, but I prefer the primerless types. Loctite really only reaches its full strength when used on oxide steel. With stainless steel it will never reach its full strength unless you use a primer or primerless type. I had the same issue with using loctite on a Cerakoted KAC install. Since bother surfaces were Cerakoted, the loctite never seemed to do its chemical thing and setup. Switched to primerless red and worked like a charm. When I took the rail off, into the oven it went. Didn't even mar up the KAC barrel nut.
IMO a torch is the wrong tool. That much heat will/can discolor the metal. A heat gun or the oven will be more evenly applied.
I already stripped the hex head screws (and all my hex wrenches) so I had to do something to the screws regardless if I applied heat or not, I just assumed the torch would make it easier after using the dremel.
I would've done the oven a long time ago (before I stripped the screws) had I known it was safe to do so. Lesson learned.
Thanks!
Archer1440
11-27-13, 08:46
As noted further up, degreasing is critical.
Unless you use of of several Loctite formulations designed to work with lubricated or oil contaminated threads- usually used by high volume assembly operations that can no longer use a batch vapor degrease procedure on small parts due to air quality regs.
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/IMG_20131126_175321_887_zps29498924.jpg
I give OP credit for even posting that hack/job...
Vibra-Tite for optic screws, 242 for attached accessories, nothing for long thread items like grip screws, lube for high-torque parts, rockset for muzzle devices.
which one? i've never used it and they have different kinds
I'm not an armorer but an HVAC mechanic of 26 years and I cannot remember a fastener coming loose when the proper torque (bolt stretch actually) was applied to the fastener with proper good quality tools.
Some people freak out when they see the price of a Sinclair International master screwdriver set.
Yep, Red Locktite requires heat to make it easy to remove. Plain and simple.
Eurodriver
11-27-13, 10:05
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/IMG_20131126_175321_887_zps29498924.jpg
I give OP credit for even posting that hack/job...
Luckily, I don't care what people on the internet think about my stripped screw removal abilities.
Doc Safari
11-27-13, 10:09
I'd just like to add that people tend to use too much Loctite at times also. Instead of drenching the threads in the stuff, if you properly degrease the threads usually a small bead on one section of the threads is enough.
The marine corps cared about peq15's? I hate those things, I break one at least every other field op.
I'm a Vibratite fan. Never a drop of red loctite on my ARs.
which one? i've never used it and they have different kinds
The one I use is red... Light to medium strength I believe? Cool stuff. Thanks Failure2Stop for the advice. Nothing but lock washers on grip screws from now on. I like using vibratite because you apply it to the screw first and let it dry rather than applying wet like loctite. It makes for less cleanup and seems to hold just as well if not better. Just don't use it on long screws as I've just learned.
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