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So me and a buddy went out today and practiced the 1-5 drill today. That sure is a fun drill and really teaches good trigger control. I shot it in 2.87 (some day I hope to be as fast as Travis Haley with a 2.13). I really love to train with a shot timer. Really gets the adrenalin going. Anybody else like doing the 1-5 drill?
Yeah. Its a fun one. I dont have a timer, but i enjoy doing it.
Shane-
In the VTAC 1-5 drill on YouTube Mr Lamb's best run was 2.92(and he was smoking). His guy ran it in 4.00 and 3.71. That makes your 2.87 REALLY impressive. Please share some tips on how you're able to complete this drill in 2.87.
So me and a buddy went out today and practiced the 1-5 drill today. That sure is a fun drill and really teaches good trigger control. I shot it in 2.87 (some day I hope to be as fast as Travis Haley with a 2.13). I really love to train with a shot timer. Really gets the adrenalin going. Anybody else like doing the 1-5 drill?
This drill was originally designed to be shot at 50yds! It is more commonly shot at 25-30yds though. The targets also need to be at least 4ft apart from one other. Each round out of the -0 (or A zone) is +1 to your time.
About the best I ever shot this was with a 10.5 SBR, 8 seconds clean @ 30yds.
C4
That 2.87 run was at 5 yards and I dont usally run that fast so I guess it could be a little lucky. My average is around 3.2-3.4 or something like that..I shoot a lot. I mean alot. I live in an area where they dont offer carbine courses and they are hours and hours away so I usually just train my self. I go down to my shooting spot 3 times a week and shoot a couple hundred rounds and just practice and practice. I watch a lot of youtube drills and a lot of Travis Haley then I emulate. When I get a camera here soon Ill video it.
Looking forward to video.
RogerinTPA
12-08-13, 20:50
The problem with most people shooting that drill is that it is ran too close (5 yards) with hardly any effective shot placement. Out side of an actual VTAC 1.5 class, most of the folks iv'e witnessed shooting the drill might as well have been doing mag dumps in the berm since shot placement was so horrendous. Once you get 5 yards mastered, start walking it back in 5 yard increments, mastering at each distance, back to the 25 yard line... farther if desired.
I must agree with you. Next range trip Im gonna go further.
I actually like doing this drill at7 yds with a pistol. What would be acceptable parameters to adopt this as a pistol drill - time/distance wise. I'm not stuck at 7 yds, it just felt doable but still challenging, each target was 1.5 yd apart.
I love this and the 2-2-2 drill. With my rifle, I'm consistently running in the low 5's with all shots on an index card at 10m. With pistol, it bumps up to the mid/high 6's if I start from the draw. Lots of work to do for speed, but accuracy and consistent shot cadence are my goals when I use this one.
Until I get a .22LR conversion kit or an M&P15-22, this is one of those drills I rarely shoot.
I actually like doing this drill at7 yds with a pistol. What would be acceptable parameters to adopt this as a pistol drill - time/distance wise. I'm not stuck at 7 yds, it just felt doable but still challenging, each target was 1.5 yd apart.
Hackathorn has us doing it at 10 yards. 15 seconds or less, outside of A zone = 1 sec, outside of c zone = 3 sec. I also seem to remember doing a turn, similar to el pres.
I actually like doing this drill at7 yds with a pistol. What would be acceptable parameters to adopt this as a pistol drill - time/distance wise. I'm not stuck at 7 yds, it just felt doable but still challenging, each target was 1.5 yd apart.
Yes! This is a superb pistol drill.
The closest I can shoot at my club is 10 yards, but sometimes I'll put one or two of the targets at 15 yards. With all three targets at 10 yards, I can hold the A-Zone and generally stay under 10 seconds. Going to 15 yards slows me down a little.
Okie John
So I just got back from shooting and the best I could run today was a 2.92. I can do much better than that though. I actually have it video taped but its shitty quality and I wasnt going to post it because the quality is bad but here goes. http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/shane_eld/media/GOPR0239_zps2be7e946.mp4.html
I did that with an alg act combat trigger. I cant wait for the geissele sd-3g trigger. I should be more efficient with the new trigger. so what do you guys think. was that decent? My groups were actually pretty decent.
Any body have any comments? Was that a decent run?
Any body have any comments? Was that a decent run?
Can't tell from the Vid, but did you hit anything? What targets were you using? IDPA? IPSC? If using one of these targets, were your hits A or -0 hits???
C4
All of the hits were in a combat effective zone mainly within a 8 inch circle might have a couple flyers in the 10 inch though. Those targets are just carboard that I cut sillouhets out of.
All of the hits were in a combat effective zone mainly within a 8 inch circle might have a couple flyers in the 10 inch though. Those targets are just carboard that I cut sillouhets out of.
"Combat Effective zone". Is that HSLD talk for a miss?? Do yourself a favor and buy some IDPA target. Use that -0 zone as a reference. Anything outside of that is a miss so add +1 to your time. So if you shoot the drill in 2.87, and had 3 out, your score would now be 5.87.
C4
Failure2Stop
12-16-13, 08:27
"Combat Effective zone". Is that HSLD talk for a miss?? Do yourself a favor and buy some IDPA target. Use that -0 zone as a reference. Anything outside of that is a miss so add +1 to your time. So if you shoot the drill in 2.87, and had 3 out, your score would now be 5.87.
You can go even easier and buy 5x8 cards.
Oriented vertically they provide an excellent replication of a good high COM hit target area.
You can go even easier and buy 5x8 cards.
Oriented vertically they provide an excellent replication of a good high COM hit target area.
Sure, use whatever you like. Just know when you have a miss though and add the penalty to your score.
C4
I would not call a combat effective hit a miss but I will look around for those targest mentioned above. I want to do this drill right.
Failure2Stop
12-16-13, 09:07
Sure, use whatever you like. Just know when you have a miss though and add the penalty to your score.
Agreed.
I don't add time to a miss, I consider any miss on a simple drill like the 1-5 to be a failure.
Nothing wrong with missing as part of the learning experience, as Jerry Miculek said in a conversation, "If you want to go fast, you can't be afraid to miss..." which I agree with, to a degree.
Finding "where the wheels fall off" is a necessary part of mastering speed, whether that speed be in regard to trigger control, sight management, target transitions, or presentations.
The purpose of missing/failing is to push the boundaries of capability/performance.
That said, I see speed transitions as a less than critical skill with regard to "really real world work".
Why?
I believe it to be an error to transition from gross target to gross target without confirmation of satisfactory effect, nor would standing toe to toe with 3 threats without movement to a more advantageous position be my recommended course of action. There is definitely viability in quickly getting off of one target to the next, however, this (in my opinion) should follow checking your work through the sights. Most certainly, not every drill needs to be a replication of a gunfight skill, and while I do see value in being good at the drill, I would push ammunition toward other areas first.
Just my unsolicited opinion.
I would not call a combat effective hit a miss but I will look around for those targest mentioned above. I want to do this drill right.
It depends on what the definition of "combat effectiveness" is. Most people use this term to "bullet hose" a target.
C4
Boba Fett v2
12-16-13, 09:33
So me and a buddy went out today and practiced the 1-5 drill today. That sure is a fun drill and really teaches good trigger control. I shot it in 2.87 (some day I hope to be as fast as Travis Haley with a 2.13). I really love to train with a shot timer. Really gets the adrenalin going. Anybody else like doing the 1-5 drill?
Damn. I ain't never ran it that fast. That's like chuck-norris-delta-force-ludicrous speed.
Sent from my piece of s**t phone using Tapatalk2 (which can be equally unreliable when coupled with a junk phone)
Agreed.
I don't add time to a miss, I consider any miss on a simple drill like the 1-5 to be a failure.
Nothing wrong with missing as part of the learning experience, as Jerry Miculek said in a conversation, "If you want to go fast, you can't be afraid to miss..." which I agree with, to a degree.
Finding "where the wheels fall off" is a necessary part of mastering speed, whether that speed be in regard to trigger control, sight management, target transitions, or presentations.
The purpose of missing/failing is to push the boundaries of capability/performance.
That said, I see speed transitions as a less than critical skill with regard to "really real world work".
Why?
I believe it to be an error to transition from gross target to gross target without confirmation of satisfactory effect, nor would standing toe to toe with 3 threats without movement to a more advantageous position be my recommended course of action. There is definitely viability in quickly getting off of one target to the next, however, this (in my opinion) should follow checking your work through the sights. Most certainly, not every drill needs to be a replication of a gunfight skill, and while I do see value in being good at the drill, I would push ammunition toward other areas first.
Just my unsolicited opinion.
I am totally fine with a pass fail kind of deal and do use this on lots of drills (as does KD).
Personally I am not a fan of drills at 7yds with an AR where I am just blasting rounds. Shooting at close range (whether pistol or AR) "masks" or hides shooters issues and allows them to get away with murder and STILL hit their target (which you already know). Thusly giving them a false sense of ability.
C4
You can go even easier and buy 5x8 cards.
Oriented vertically they provide an excellent replication of a good high COM hit target area.
And they are CHEAP. Stack them high and deep when school supplies are on sale every August. Alternately, buy a ream of copier paper. Start with the full size sheet and work your way to folding them in half (~8.5 x 5.5").
I would not call a combat effective hit a miss
Consider the possibility that somebody with a realistic desire to improve their skills WOULD call it a miss. There's more than just a hint of "Free your mind, your ass will follow" to it that's more than simple semantics.
"Combat effective hits" is utterly subjective, and is perhaps one of the greatest cop-outs ever provided to the public by this industry.
The lines that define the disired strike areas of a target are objective. Staying true to them, and honest with yourself, as to whether you're hitting or not. Objectivity will provide you with greater benefits in the long run, and not only for just this one drill.
Consider the possibility that somebody with a realistic desire to improve their skills WOULD call it a miss. There's more than just a hint of "Free your mind, your ass will follow" to it that's more than simple semantics.
"Combat effective hits" is utterly subjective, and is perhaps one of the greatest cop-outs ever provided to the public by this industry.
The lines that define the disired strike areas of a target are objective. Staying true to them, and honest with yourself, as to whether you're hitting or not. Objectivity will provide you with greater benefits in the long run, and not only for just this one drill.
Right on. Instructors that typically use this terminology, generally "accept" students putting rounds in the B and C zones (-1/-2 on IPDA targets) and tell them that they are "good." They are doing so because they:
A. Can't teach you how to shooter better.
B. Want you to feel good about your shooting ability and want you to return for another class (ego stroke).
C4
So I just got back from shooting and the best I could run today was a 2.92. I can do much better than that though. I actually have it video taped but its shitty quality and I wasnt going to post it because the quality is bad but here goes. http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/shane_eld/media/GOPR0239_zps2be7e946.mp4.htmlSorry but I didn't hear a timer and am wondering how you are getting your times?
I would not call a combat effective hit a miss but I will look around for those targest mentioned above. I want to do this drill right.
What everyone is saying, is that you need to push for near perfection on the range, with accuracy as THE metric. Your 'groups' will fall apart when shit goes sideways, so hold yourself accountable in training. Don't be the guy that holds up a swiss-cheesed paper target and goes "Oooooh weeee! hit him in the shoulder, thigh, left pinkie, and neck! He ain't gettin up!"
Speed will come as a byproduct of repetition. Not to say you shouldn't push yourself to be quicker, as long as accuracy remains a quality constant.
I think you were a bit slow from the buzzer to your first round on target. Well over a second maybe...what was your time? Push for an ACCURATE first round hit in the sub 1-second range from that distance.
Failure2Stop
12-16-13, 16:59
Sorry but I didn't hear a timer and am wondering how you are getting your times?
Same here.
Did not hear a timer.
Didn't watch video until Surf quoted, not sure why I didn't see it posted before...
FChen17213
12-21-13, 06:29
One thing I'd like to add to the previous posts is that too many people shoot the same drills over and over. It's like the El Prez that some people do way way way too much. It becomes a "circus trick" as that is what some SMEs have called it. It's not making you a better shooter if you just keep doing the 1-5 drill over and over. The drill was a good drill designed to practice multiple shots on multiple targets with full round accountability with driving the gun hard and fast. If you run the 1-5 Drill like 20 times every time you go to the range, of course you'll get good at it. Shooters should be doing new drills and changing stuff up to improve their shooting.
You can go even easier and buy 5x8 cards.
Oriented vertically they provide an excellent replication of a good high COM hit target area.
I have used a 8-1/2" x 11" piece of typing paper folded in half to cover a 4-1/4" x 11" area on the center of a B-27. The top of the paper is placed at the base of the neck on the target. Anytime a hit goes off the typing paper, it is counted as a fail target.
I agree with FChen. You have to mix up your drills to stay sharp.
That said, I see speed transitions as a less than critical skill with regard to "really real world work".
Why?
I believe it to be an error to transition from gross target to gross target without confirmation of satisfactory effect, nor would standing toe to toe with 3 threats without movement to a more advantageous position be my recommended course of action. There is definitely viability in quickly getting off of one target to the next, however, this (in my opinion) should follow checking your work through the sights. Most certainly, not every drill needs to be a replication of a gunfight skill, and while I do see value in being good at the drill, I would push ammunition toward other areas first.
Just my unsolicited opinion.
There you go.
With a little practice it is easier to develop the ability to shoot faster than you can think - which can lead to disaster.
That is my one and only criticism of the Rogers Shooting School, even someone operating at his Basic Level is engaging and hitting targets faster than they can process identifying the target as a threat.
Good warm-up and standards drill, but you need to be able to drive the weapon to threats at different ranges, spacing and elevations - another plus for the Rogers School - and have the discipline to slow done enough to finish your work and not make mistakes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z-iZot1G-w
1-5 Proctor. Hold my beer...
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