View Full Version : Does Chrome Lining a Barrel Increase Reliability??
I see this question on other gun forums all the time. So I thought I would do a little poll to see what you guys think.
This should be interesting. :D
C4
Under dirty combat conditions, YES.
For folks who clean their rifles after every trip the the range, they'll never know the difference.
No. Chrome lining is a surface treatment to increase resistance to wear and corrosion. Nothing about that effects reliability especially in light of abuse. Take Steve's AK for example, that was an extreme case that showed rust would render even a chrome lined AK inoperable.
There are coating that make cleaning easier and minimize corrosion but there is no coating that will cure operator error.
While it would be stupid to argue against chrome lining, my Noveske 10.5" has always run like a raped ape. It all depends on how you maintain your weapons.
HAMMERDROP
09-09-06, 19:08
but I agree w/bigbore ...
I do not own a Chrome lined barrel and would not order
it on a new barrel. But it serves a purpose like a SLICK50
treatment on a new engine and if that purpose makes
the end user more confident in that barrel then hallelujah.
But the engines still runs without it.
I have seen chrome moly chambers rust. The case stuck to the chamber and the head was ripped off. I am sure that a good SS chamber would resist this too. I will NEVER own a chrome moly barrel again.
Hoplophile
09-09-06, 20:40
I voted yes but I should specify that I think a chrome lined -chamber- enhances reliability. Chroming the bore doesn't add anything in this area.
Rmplstlskn
09-09-06, 20:44
Chroming a BARREL, marginally, but negligable with modern ammo and proper weapons care.
So, technically according to words used, NO!
Rmpl
While it would be stupid to argue against chrome lining, my Noveske 10.5" has always run like a raped ape. It all depends on how you maintain your weapons.
I don't want to know how you know what a "raped ape" runs like.
Mental note, don't go to the zoo with Dinger.
Chamber is a must for field weapon for reliability. The bore helps for preservation if operating in wet climates but really doesn't do anything reliability.
Operating in salt water/brackish water Monsoon season rivers,swamps and rice paddies
I'd say I'd opt for the chrome lining...no doubt about it...
On my HD shottie, my small varmint 22LRs and 17 HMR and handguns don't see the need...
Nice insurance or peace of mind to have a couple ARs with...
For my money a chrome bore and chamber is the way to go for all except a target and/or a long range precision barrel. Hard chrome is much harder than the barrel steel itself which translates to a longer life and makes the bore more reliable in conditions like extended field use that might ruin a carbon steel barrel.
Billy
I voted yes, particularly WRT a chrome lined chamber.
I don't want to know how you know what a "raped ape" runs like.
Mental note, don't go to the zoo with Dinger.
Hahaha
Anyway... I don't think it makes a difference as long as you clean your weapon after using it.
Thank you guys for your responses. I personally only run SS and or chrome moly barrels in all the classes I take. They run perfectly. Chrome lining helps increase barrel life and that is about it IMHO. I don't think you need it for reliability purposes. There are many SS barreled weapons in the sand box right now without any issues (that I am aware of).
If you treat your weapon like you treat your lawn mower then get a chrome lined barrel! :D
C4
Submariner
09-11-06, 10:53
Chrome lining helps increase barrel life and that is about it IMHO. I don't think you need it for reliability purposes.
...
If you treat your weapon like you treat your lawn mower then get a chrome lined barrel! :D
Longer barrel life means more money to spend on other things, like ammunition.;)
Re: Lawnmowers. I got tired of crap mowers and bought a SCAG. Nice piece of machinery.
Longer barrel life means more money to spend on other things, like ammunition.;)
Re: Lawnmowers. I got tired of crap mowers and bought a SCAG. Nice piece of machinery.
No doubt that Chrome Lined barrels greatly improve life, but it comes at a price. Some Chrome Lined barrels will shoot 1MOA, but the majority of them do not (more like 3-5MOA). I am an accuracy fan (especially at long ranges) and and CL barrels just won't cut it for me.
C4
Patrick Aherne
09-11-06, 11:31
No doubt that Chrome Lined barrels greatly improve life, but it comes at a price. Some Chrome Lined barrels will shoot 1MOA, but the majority of them do not (more like 3-5MOA). I am an accuracy fan (especially at long ranges) and and CL barrels just won't cut it for me.
C4
Why does reliability matter, then? You have to ask yourself what is your intended use for the rifle? If you are using it at long range, i.e. beyond about 450 yds. for a carbine, then you are most likely not using it in a civilian self-defense/police role. I use chrome lined barrels on anything I carry for serious work. My Rock Creek barreled GA Precision .308 is wonderfully accurate, but I'm not a sniper and don't think I'll ever be one.
In my experience, the shooter, not the chrome-lined bore is the limiting factor in real world accuracy. In my expected area of use, 0-50 yds., the reliability offered by chrome is far more imiportant than an extra inch of accuracy.
Most Colt or Diemaco chrome lined barrels I have experience with will shoot 1MOA or better with good ammo and a good shooter. 95% of the time in a combat situation the shooter will not be at his best and the system will easily outshoot him.
However I have several SS systems and I dont think that chrome lined systems are any more reliable in most situations. However I have noticed that in rapid fire situations involving 6+ mags that SS barrels are (IMHO) more finicky that Chrome lined ones.
* I only own Colt lowers
** I have Colt, LMT and custom uppers
Why does reliability matter, then? You have to ask yourself what is your intended use for the rifle? If you are using it at long range, i.e. beyond about 450 yds. for a carbine, then you are most likely not using it in a civilian self-defense/police role. I use chrome lined barrels on anything I carry for serious work. My Rock Creek barreled GA Precision .308 is wonderfully accurate, but I'm not a sniper and don't think I'll ever be one.
In my experience, the shooter, not the chrome-lined bore is the limiting factor in real world accuracy. In my expected area of use, 0-50 yds., the reliability offered by chrome is far more imiportant than an extra inch of accuracy.
Hey Pat! I personally want a weapon that I can run & gun with and be able to turn around and varmint hunt out to longer ranges. SS barrels give me this capability.
I understand what your saying about the distances you shoot and YOUR requirements for accuracy.
C4
P.S. Got your message about the mags.
Most Colt or Diemaco chrome lined barrels I have experience with will shoot 1MOA or better with good ammo and a good shooter. 95% of the time in a combat situation the shooter will not be at his best and the system will easily outshoot him.
However I have several SS systems and I dont think that chrome lined systems are any more reliable in most situations. However I have noticed that in rapid fire situations involving 6+ mags that SS barrels are (IMHO) more finicky that Chrome lined ones.
* I only own Colt lowers
** I have Colt, LMT and custom uppers
Thanks Kevin. I have seen some Colt's shoot 1MOA (and a couple BCM's). I have also seen them shoot 5MOA. :(
I guess one of things that gets me is the misbelief that SS barrels are not reliable and not for combat (which you know isn't true).
C4
Those of you that answered "YES" to the question. Can you explain to me why they are more reliable?
As many of you know, most all (if not all) of our battlerifles had no chrome lining and performed VERY well in combat. So I am interested in why people believe that the M16/AR15 has to have it in order to be reliable.
C4
Submariner
09-12-06, 13:21
Those of you that answered "YES" to the question. Can you explain to me why they are more reliable?
Perhaps. So we are on the same page of music, what definition are we using for "reliability"?
I always thought that the issue with the chrome lining was a cleaning and maintenance issue, not a reliability issue. The question kind of seems like asking "does the use of Mobil 1 synthetic oil make the Corvette faster?" It's a bit of a trick question as one has little to nothing to do with one another.
I guess you could argue that a non-chrome-lined barrel that isn't maintained will rust faster and cause the rifle to become unreliable.
Perhaps. So we are on the same page of music, what definition are we using for "reliability"?
That the weapon is more likely to go "bang."
C4
I always thought that the issue with the chrome lining was a cleaning and maintenance issue, not a reliability issue. The question kind of seems like asking "does the use of Mobil 1 synthetic oil make the Corvette faster?" It's a bit of a trick question as one has little to nothing to do with one another.
I guess you could argue that a non-chrome-lined barrel that isn't maintained will rust faster and cause the rifle to become unreliable.
You are correct. Longer barrel life and less maintenance is the benefit of Chrome Lining a barrel. To the best of my knowledge, it has NOTHING to do with reliability.
C4
olds442tyguy
09-12-06, 14:56
I voted no because I've never seen a failure that could be related to a lack of chrome lining. In short, my very limited experience has given me the opinion that chrome lining's main benefit is longevity, and the same goes for barrel steel.
I find myself wearing this saying out, but "what works, works". If it does what it's supposed to, like it's supposed to, that little stuff doesn't matter that much to me.
My opinions could very well be irrelevant though, as I'm no expert and I've never conducted any formal testing.
So you are saying a chrome lined chamber doesn't make extraction easier?
So you are saying a chrome lined chamber doesn't make extraction easier?
I actually never said that. I am talkin about the overall reliability of the weapon.
If you believe extraction is helped by having a chrome lined bore, please explain.
C4
Submariner
09-12-06, 16:43
That the weapon is more likely to go "bang."
C4
OK. On the first shot, chrome lining is pretty much irrelevant. Agreed?
On the second or subsequent shots, assuming good ammunition, good magazines and working fire contol system and gas system, what might make it not go "bang"? A round must be fed, chambered and locked before it can go "bang". Failure to feed? Failure to chamber? Failure to lock? Failure to extract/eject so it cannot subsequently feed/chamber? Anything else?
Chrome-lined chambers and bores allegedly inhibit (not prevent) corrosion/fouling that would normally occur. Hence corrosion/fouling build up more slowly. At some point, probably hundreds of rounds down the road, there will be sufficient corrosion/fouling (exacerbated, possibly, by expansion of the chamber due to heat which is dependent upon the rate of fire) to bind the case in the chamber (think: .223 Match chamber needing to be reamed to 5.56mm spec) and cause a failure to extract or prevent the round from chambering/locking (failure to feed/lock).
Engineers reasoned that this event would happen sooner without the chrome lining and later with the chrome lining, resulting in going "bang" more times before not going "bang", i.e. increased reliability. Whether they tested this theory, I do not recall; chrome lining of the chamber and bore were added to the mil-spec and Marines stopped being killed with cleaning rods in their hands trying to clear stuck cases from their weapons (and, yes, I know calcium carbonate in the ball powders used initially was also a factor contributing to the corrosion). As STLRN remarked, this corrosion is generally accelerated in hot/wet climates, e.g. jungle.
Based on the above, I voted "Yes".
Please explain why "No" is the proper answer.
I prefer the chrome lining on the outside of the barrel so it matches my grill
http://www.vinylexchange.com/blog/pix/paulwall_close.jpg
I've been told the M-14 had chrome lining because of lessons learned from WWII in the Pacific. Specifically, to combat corrosion issues that emerged there.
I'd say since most of us don't live and probably won't operate in the jungle that we probably won't see the benefit. Then again how many hundreds of dollars are spent by patrons of this and other boards to combat situations that are extremely unlikely?
I'd say since most of us don't live and probably won't operate in the jungle that we probably won't see the benefit. Then again how many hundreds of dollars are spent by patrons of this and other boards to combat situations that are extremely unlikely?
I live in South Florida and don't like to clean guns. It's chrome only for me.
Robb Jensen
09-14-06, 07:15
IMHO a chrome lined bore is much easier to clean and lasts longer than a non-chrome lined bore (unless your talking Noveske 17-4).
Which is why most of my barrels on my ARs are chrome lined. Including my 3 gun AR (20" Bushy fluted 1x9, and chamber reamed with a Ned Christiansens 5.56mm neck and throat reamer). This barrel even after the 5.56mm neck reamer still shoots under 1 MOA.
OK. On the first shot, chrome lining is pretty much irrelevant. Agreed?
On the second or subsequent shots, assuming good ammunition, good magazines and working fire contol system and gas system, what might make it not go "bang"? A round must be fed, chambered and locked before it can go "bang". Failure to feed? Failure to chamber? Failure to lock? Failure to extract/eject so it cannot subsequently feed/chamber? Anything else?
Chrome-lined chambers and bores allegedly inhibit (not prevent) corrosion/fouling that would normally occur. Hence corrosion/fouling build up more slowly. At some point, probably hundreds of rounds down the road, there will be sufficient corrosion/fouling (exacerbated, possibly, by expansion of the chamber due to heat which is dependent upon the rate of fire) to bind the case in the chamber (think: .223 Match chamber needing to be reamed to 5.56mm spec) and cause a failure to extract or prevent the round from chambering/locking (failure to feed/lock).
Engineers reasoned that this event would happen sooner without the chrome lining and later with the chrome lining, resulting in going "bang" more times before not going "bang", i.e. increased reliability. Whether they tested this theory, I do not recall; chrome lining of the chamber and bore were added to the mil-spec and Marines stopped being killed with cleaning rods in their hands trying to clear stuck cases from their weapons (and, yes, I know calcium carbonate in the ball powders used initially was also a factor contributing to the corrosion). As STLRN remarked, this corrosion is generally accelerated in hot/wet climates, e.g. jungle.
Based on the above, I voted "Yes".
Please explain why "No" is the proper answer.
Thanks Sub. Yes CAN BE the proper answer as CAN no.
One of the main issues as to why the military went to chrome lining had to do with the ammo that was used. I personally think chrome lining is a VERY good idea for most all the infantry guys. As we know though, there are guys running SS barrels in the sand box.
Can you tell me what other main battle rifles have chrome lining?
C4
Under dirty combat conditions, YES.
For folks who clean their rifles after every trip the the range, they'll never know the difference.
What about gus like you that clean their rifles after about 1-3000 rounds? Do you have any reliability issues with your stainless barrels?
IMHO a chrome lined bore is much easier to clean and lasts longer than a non-chrome lined bore (unless your talking Noveske 17-4).
Which is why most of my barrels on my ARs are chrome lined. Including my 3 gun AR (20" Bushy fluted 1x9, and chamber reamed with a Ned Christiansens 5.56mm neck and throat reamer). This barrel even after the 5.56mm neck reamer still shoots under 1 MOA.
This is 100% true and would choose a chrome lined barrel for the exact same reasons. I don't however believe that they are not as reliable as a chrome moly or SS barrel.
As many of you know, I shoot only SS and CM barrels (nothing chrome lined) in all the training classes I take. In Pat's Quantico class it was 105 everday and I barely did any cleaning to my weapon during those three days. I probably had one of the most reliable guns there. In fact the weapon got so hot that I had a cook off! Gun still ran just fine the rest of the day. :D
The point that I am interested in making is that chrome lining doesn't really increase reliability, but does increase the longevity of the barrel. I wanted to see why people chose a CL barrel and if they had any experience training with a chrome moly or SS barrel.
If you have not picked up a SS barrel because you were afraid that it wasn't as reliable, give it a shot (literally)!
Thanks all for participating!
C4
Submariner
09-14-06, 12:13
Thanks Sub. Yes CAN BE the proper answer as CAN no.
One of the main issues as to why the military went to chrome lining had to do with the ammo that was used. I personally think chrome lining is a VERY good idea for most all the infantry guys. As we know though, there are guys running SS barrels in the sand box.
Can you tell me what other main battle rifles have chrome lining?
I once was an "infantry guy", i.e. rifleman., and had more than a passing interest in this.:D And, as I mentioned above, ball powder used not in acceptance trials but subsequent to adoption was a HUGE issue. I beleive you will find that the corrosion issue due to powder had more to do with fouling/corroding the gas port and gas tube rather than the chamber and resultant short stroking. Not much gas was getting into the chamber to promote fouling/corrosion; most leaves the barrel or the gas port whereupon it passes through the gas tube and dumps into the bolt carrier. To few cleaning rods (Is self-cleaning) and few, if any, chamber brushes were, IMV, the reason for chrome-lining the chamber, not so much the powder issue. YMMV.
According to wikipedia:rolleyes:
Although the M14 had a chrome-lined barrel and chamber to resist corrosion in combat conditions (a danger learned from WWII Pacific theatre combat experience), the M16/XM16E1 had no chrome-lined bore or chamber.
The NIB preban M1A I have has a chrome-lined USGI barrel as is every USGI barrel I have ever seen. Kreiger and Obermyer used to caution that their match barrels had a break-in procedure that USGI barrels did not for this reason.
When I shoot out all the Colt barrels I have for spares, I'll probably try a high-end SS barrel. After everyone is out of college, that is.
Hoplophile
09-14-06, 13:19
Can you tell me what other main battle rifles have chrome lining?How many of them don't have chrome lined barrels? The Sig 55x series is the only one I can thik of.
What about gus like you that clean their rifles after about 1-3000 rounds? Do you have any reliability issues with your stainless barrels?
I have no problem going through 500-1000rds at a sitting with a suppressed SS barrel - on a M16 lower. - I've done this a few times lately
Nothing special, wilson barrels with Wylde chambers.
The conditions and neglect required to make an AR not go bang due to a fouled chamber (FTE/FTF) where chrome lining would make the difference, I have not been able to duplicate. The issues during WWII with corrosive ammo and the dirty ammo requiring chrome lined chambers, isnt something I see being an issue today with ARs in the states.
I knew if I posed the question properly, you'd type a better answer.:p I think that is what many AR owners needed to know.
I have no problem going through 500-1000rds at a sitting with a suppressed SS barrel - on a M16 lower. - I've done this a few times lately
Nothing special, wilson barrels with Wylde chambers.
The conditions and neglect required to make an AR not go bang due to a fouled chamber (FTE/FTF) where chrome lining would make the difference, I have not been able to duplicate. The issues during WWII with corrosive ammo and the dirty ammo requiring chrome lined chambers, isnt something I see being an issue today with ARs in the states.
Like Steve, I have run my CM and SS barrels to over 1K without cleaning and they run perfectly fine.
Can we say that this myth is busted? :D
C4
I don't think it really is much of an issue unless you go to high humidity conditions like back to jungle of SEA, Latin America or part of Africa.
I remember going through jungle warfare training in the NTA of Okinawa and watching the barrel of my M9 rust, despite having been cleaned and lubed with CLP not more than a few hours before. Any piece of steel missing its finish tends to pick up rust in those conditions and keeping it off is very, very hard.
Like Steve, I have run my CM and SS barrels to over 1K without cleaning and they run perfectly fine.
Can we say that this myth is busted? :D
C4
No you can't. Simply put, we don't operate in the environment where the chrome-lined barrels are designed to enhance reliability. Doesn't mean the "myth" is busted. It just means we cannot test it.
Submariner
09-15-06, 21:10
I don't think it really is much of an issue unless you go to high humidity conditions like back to jungle of SEA, Latin America or part of Africa.
Isn't Venezuela in Latin America? Got oil? Got jungle? Got Marines with M16A4's/M4'S?
Chromes? We don't need no stinkin' chromes.
I don't think it really is much of an issue unless you go to high humidity conditions like back to jungle of SEA, Latin America or part of Africa.
I remember going through jungle warfare training in the NTA of Okinawa and watching the barrel of my M9 rust, despite having been cleaned and lubed with CLP not more than a few hours before. Any piece of steel missing its finish tends to pick up rust in those conditions and keeping it off is very, very hard.
Thats odd. As an Air Force SP at Clark AB in the Phillippines, we had no issues with rust. One of the most humid environs I have been in.
No you can't. Simply put, we don't operate in the environment where the chrome-lined barrels are designed to enhance reliability. Doesn't mean the "myth" is busted. It just means we cannot test it.
I hear ya. I spent most of Navy time in Central and South America and if I was to choose a weapon for that environment, it would most likely have a chrome lined barrel.
For the other 99% of us, a SS or CM barrel will function perfectly and give you better accuracy.
C4
If you have not picked up a SS barrel because you were afraid that it wasn't as reliable, give it a shot (literally)!
My reason for not owning a SS barrel is not reliability but profile. I only own 6520s and a 6933, so all of my barrels are "pencil" barrels. I don't believe anyone makes stainless barrels in that profile, and even if they did I don't know that there would be anything to gain.
I actually live on Clark in the 70s and it although it was muggy, it was nothing like when you moved out into the jungle areas.
Submariner
09-16-06, 09:47
My reason for not owning a SS barrel is not reliability but profile. I only own 6520s and a 6933, so all of my barrels are "pencil" barrels. I don't believe anyone makes stainless barrels in that profile, and even if they did I don't know that there would be anything to gain.
You, sir, are part of the 1% to whom Grant is not selling.;)
tweak had it right:
5.56 NATO chamber will reliably (and that is the prime consideration) run nearly any ammunition, you've got to get pretty far afield to make a 5.56 NATO chamber stick.
Accuracy (beyond the ability to reliably hit within your own CEP) is a distant second.
A USGI barrel will easily do 3MOA with USGI ammo and much better with quality ammo. I've met several competition (that's not my gig so I never ask the specifics but I'd certainly put them among Pat's "yellow glass crowd") shooters who start out with stock COLT HBAR barrels and work up a match barrel when their skills are commensurate with the mechanical accuracy of the platform.
...
Two parts of an AR you never want to scrimp on are the bolt and the barrel.
...
Training and skill building come first. BTW, my dedicated .22LR uppers are not chrome-lined.:D
I'd say just equip the rifle with what is needed in the expected operating environment.
If you're an operator doing combat in the deep dark steamy jungle, then a chrome-lined barrel might be good.
If you're like most of us reading this board, who are not combat operators, then pick a good barrel for the typical conditions at your shooting range facility.
Hoplophile
09-16-06, 14:27
I'd say just equip the rifle with what is needed in the expected operating environment.
If you're an operator doing combat in the deep dark steamy jungle, then a chrome-lined barrel might be good.
If you're like most of us reading this board, who are not combat operators, then pick a good barrel for the typical conditions at your shooting range facility.
I'd say the typical conditions in my house and in my safe are a more important consideration than the conditions at the range...
TigerStripe
09-17-06, 00:08
I say chrome lining does not, in and of itself, increase reliability. I think chrome lining the chamber, having the correct action spring, good mags and ammo, extractor spring and insert, etc all combine to make a more reliable weapon especially in a humid or salt water environment. Stainless will provide the same benefits, except possibly the life...
TS
baffle Stack
09-17-06, 12:26
This thread has been quite informative. Thanks guys!
A far a reliability goes I don't think a chrome lined bore makes a difference, but depending on the environment it's used in and the ammo the gun is fed I believe a chrome lined chamber is one of the many good enhancements to have as a hedge against Mr. Murphy.
The main reason I prefer a chrome lined barrel is for ease of cleaning and extra durability in harsh environments where it may not be properly maintained.
I have nothing against SS barrels but I view them as more of a special purpose rather than a general purpose barrel. I do have plans to use SS barrel for a future 6.8 project...;)
One new item I'll be keeping an eye is the Noveske chrome lined SS barrels that Denney/GTS is selling. It's a very interesting take on the "Get Both!" philosophy.
Thats odd. As an Air Force SP at Clark AB in the Phillippines, we had no issues with rust. One of the most humid environs I have been in.
Brother, Clark AB is not SERE on The Rock. The banana spider webs look like water coolers. Also humidity levels within tree canopy's is like Campbell Soup.
Just saying Clark was the worst I was in. When I would get home from work and my BDU's were salt stained, it was soup to me.
Heavy Metal
09-24-06, 14:52
Those of you that answered "YES" to the question. Can you explain to me why they are more reliable?
As many of you know, most all (if not all) of our battlerifles had no chrome lining and performed VERY well in combat. So I am interested in why people believe that the M16/AR15 has to have it in order to be reliable.
C4
My response to that would be that they were more tolerant of chamber degradation due to the fact that those systems possesed some form of primary case extraction. The AR system has no primary extraction.
Now, for arguments sake, a stainless chamber that resists pitting would be good to go as well.
Reliability is a bit of an ambiguous term. Reliability as in "function every time I pull the trigger" then I would say yes. Probably only slightly so but I'm not a hsld kinda guy and don't use it as extensively as LEO/MIL/Priv sectors. Still a good poll!
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