View Full Version : Let's talk about precision reloading
I've been posting a lot lately but my brain is a sponge right now and you guys always provide the knowledge. I wanna talk about all the different things folks do when reloading for maximum precision accuracy. What I'm gonna do is list some things I've seen folks do and ask for your input on the topic. What I would like is some sort of proof/data that a certain step has made a measurable difference in accuracy. Right now I'm chasing the accuracy goal with my GAP-10 but I will be having a precision bolt gun built soon. Here goes...
- Turning case necks
- Using bench rest primers VS standard primers
- Using competition seating dies over standard dies
- Crimping and not crimping
- Loading to be just off the lands or kissing the lands
- Uniforming primer pockets
- Deburring flash holes
- Bumping shoulders VS resizing to factory specs
Please provide input on any or all of these steps and if you've personally observed increases in accuracy by performing them. If you would like to add something I didn't list, feel free to do so.
Steel head
12-09-13, 20:03
How about bushing style sizing dies also.
I'll have one maybe tomorrow and then I'm going to compare it to a standard die.
I've seen no advantage with BR primers but I rarely shoot past 200yds and they might help further out.
In my experience with bolt guns these are the things that give the most accuracy bang for my time and dollars:
Sweating the load development to begin with (getting powder, charge, bullet right for the gun)
Hand weighing charges
Getting bullet jump right (which you just have to find depending on bullet and what the gun "likes")
Fireforming brass and then only sizing the shoulder back a couple thou
Trimming brass to length.
Uniforming/deburring flash holes
spending time with the chrono and running stats on consistency
Maintaining lot traceability of my brass (segregated by headstamp and production lot, and only fired in one gun).
Consistently using the same primer (I think I have room to improve here as I haven't experimented to determine effects on my loads in my guns)
Have gotten guns well below .5 MOA with just the above measures.
Items below are of marginal utility (to me) but used by top drawer benchrest/accuracy shooters. Use them to squink out the last few marginal %:
turning necks
benchrest primers
weighing/checking volume of brass
primer pocket uniforming
High dollar brass (lapua etc).
bullet weighing/sorting/uniforming
Depends on what gun this ammo will be loaded for....
Bolt vs. Auto?
Factory barrel?
There is WAY TOO much discussion possible in all of those topics. That said... I load match for several bolt and auto guns... and I do not turn necks or mess with flash holes. Stick to one kind of GOOD brass and you can avoid that stuff for the immediate future.
Thanks for the great info fellas! I'll definitely apply it.
Another thing.... If you're looking to LEARN about making great ammo... AVOID the retards on ARFcom. They don't know shit. I've perused their loading forum and there's like 1 or 2 guys who know anything, and they don't reply very often.
Go read the forums on accurateshooter.com. They're not really geared towards NEW loaders, but you can learn a lot over there, and come back here and ask questions. I don't even start too many topics over there, and I've been loading for a long time.
OK I'm sold on the competition seating dies.
If I were to buy a Redding seating micrometer, would it fit in my Dillon seating die?
Also, what's the difference between the VLD micrometer and the Standard?
Redding dies will fit in your tool head. (I'm assuming that's what you mean.. I don't think you can convert a Dillon die to Redding Micrometer adjust) I think I have a Forster micrometer seating die, but they're both about the same... I'd be fine running either.
The value in micrometer adjustability is realized when you load many different bullets. You can quick spin the die to desired OAL without the imprecision of the die lock nut adjustments.... It's just faster to back the die off with the Mirco, and slowly work your way down to desired seat depth.
The VLD is going to have a stem that's shaped for seating VLD bullets. You shouldn't be playing with those yet.... too early in your loading career. Stick to SMKs and that eliminated your "off the lands" issues completely. Load your ammo to standard/mag length and don't worry about jump.
[QUOTE=markm;1810604]Another thing.... If you're looking to LEARN about making great ammo... AVOID the retards on ARFcom. They don't know shit.
Biged is going to blow a fuse when reading your quote.
Who is Biged? Believe me... I went undercover brother over on ARFtard for a month.... There is a lot of bad info flowing.
And it's hilarious... if you start posting good info, they lock your account because they know you're someone who was banned. (I've done this several times... posted like a Saint... and BAM! Account deactivated... NO explaination. :) )
QuietShootr
12-10-13, 12:32
How about bushing style sizing dies also.
I'll have one maybe tomorrow and then I'm going to compare it to a standard die.
I've seen no advantage with BR primers but I rarely shoot past 200yds and they might help further out.
Shooting at 200 you could about hammer the bullet in with a Fisher-Price Construction Set hammer and use a strike-anywhere match for the primer.
QuietShootr
12-10-13, 12:32
Who is Biged? Believe me... I went undercover brother over on ARFtard for a month.... There is a lot of bad info flowing.
And it's hilarious... if you start posting good info, they lock your account because they know you're someone who was banned. (I've done this several times... posted like a Saint... and BAM! Account deactivated... NO explaination. :) )
It's true.
[QUOTE=markm;1810696]Who is Biged? Believe me... I went undercover brother over on ARFtard for a month.... There is a lot of bad info flowing.
And it's hilarious..
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?142311-556-brass-decapping-and-cleaning
Shooting at 200 you could about hammer the bullet in with a Fisher-Price Construction Set hammer and use a strike-anywhere match for the primer.
True. If you're working with an SMK. You have to really work at screwing up the accuracy.
Who is Biged? Believe me... I went undercover brother over on ARFtard for a month.... There is a lot of bad info flowing.
And it's hilarious... if you start posting good info, they lock your account because they know you're someone who was banned. (I've done this several times... posted like a Saint... and BAM! Account deactivated... NO explaination. :) )
Maybe you don't play well with others.;)
[QUOTE=markm;1810696]Who is Biged? Believe me... I went undercover brother over on ARFtard for a month.... There is a lot of bad info flowing.
And it's hilarious..
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?142311-556-brass-decapping-and-cleaning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qgBjoL_auM
Sent via Tapatalk
Who is Biged? Believe me... I went undercover brother over on ARFtard for a month.... There is a lot of bad info flowing.
And it's hilarious... if you start posting good info, they lock your account because they know you're someone who was banned. (I've done this several times... posted like a Saint... and BAM! Account deactivated... NO explaination. :) )
Biged is the guy from ARF that talks so highly of their "Reloading Moderator"...https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?142311-556-brass-decapping-and-cleaning
[QUOTE=Airhasz;1810702]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qgBjoL_auM
Sent via Tapatalk
Picture paints a 1K words...:sarcastic:
QuietShootr
12-10-13, 13:25
Windex poisoning.
Biged is the guy from ARF that talks so highly of their "Reloading Moderator"...https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?142311-556-brass-decapping-and-cleaning
Maybe you don't play well with others.;)
Normally true... but in this case.. No... not at all. I've gone back there 2 or 3 times and posted like a Saint. If you show brain cell activity, they get REALLY suspicious. It's kind of funny.
Windex poisoning.
True. The Reloading Mod didn't strike me as a bad dude... but he let a lot of monumentally retarded posts go unchecked.... I mean just BAD info, where someone should have stepped in and said "Read more, post less".
I suppose no one can watch everything all the time though.
SW,
Interesting and broad based post. That being said - when you get into precision reloading, there are very distinct processes that are specific to bolt & gas guns.
So, if up front your looking at the GAP10, then specific items on your list are applicable and different ones are more appropriate for a bolt gun.
I would also offer this one word as the hallmark for anything and everything that is remotely connected to precision / accuracy based reloading practices:
CONSISTENCY - write that on the back of your hand, backwards on your forehead - so you can read it in the mirror :D and every flat surface on your reloading bench.
Its that important.
- Turning case necks
Don't bother for either - ESPECIALLY a gas gun. Recipe for major problems. For a bolt gun, this is only needed when your chamber has been cut with a custom reamer designed for specific clearance/dimensioned brass... read high end bench/LR guns. Turning necks is a whole other world and it opens up your wallet and drains your time. I turn necks on a custom / precision .308 40X w/ a 20" Krieger. The reamer is a .339 neck. I turn Lapua to .0145" This gives me .002 clearance. It's finicky - I have to keep the rifle /chamber clean and turning the brass is a labor intensive effort. I use K&M turners and a powered collet to spin the brass. Results??? I'd be hard pressed to quantify it other than it shoots under .5 MOA with boring regularity. When I say .5, I mean .5 - like 30 or 40 rounds will go into a group that I can cover with a quarter (.955 if you're wondering)
Note: Personal rant / pet peeve - all to often you'll see claims that "My M740A6 blah blah blah shoots .5 MOA or .250 MOA all day long...these claims and the trigger pullers themselves are seriously suspect and are generally the product of a one time 3 shot group.
Remember the important word? Will your rifle / ammo & you CONSISTENTLY generate .5 MOA groups day in day out? That is in reality, a rare feat that lives in the stratosphere of custom guns. I've shot .3 or .4" groups with a rack grade M70 in 30-06 with hunting ammo - BUT they were 3 shot groups and I can't even remotely consistently repeat it. Is it a .5moa gun - sure on the internet.....in reality - not a chance.
Rant off.
- Using bench rest primers VS standard primers - experimentation will show results. In a gas gun - don't bother. Too many other variables. I shot NM High Power Service Rifle for nearly 20 yrs. Made High Master shooting across the course 200/300/600yds - I never ever shot BR or Match primers at 600yds - ever. I shot primed LC 556 brass with the standard GI M-41 primer. Guns shot MOA or better - meaning if I did my part and mother nature didn't offer up a big huff n' puff - the ammo rifle me combo could hold the x ring.
Now - different story at 1K - I always used CCI BR primers for that ammo - but we are talking about HIGHLY developed VLD based loads. At 1k a 20fps velocity dip will take you out of the 10 ring. These loads were HIGHLY developed and had velocity extreme spreads (22rds min) of less than 15fps. I rarely lost a point to elevation. SD's ran in the single digits.
CONSISTENCY
- Using competition seating dies over standard dies - ABSOLUTELY. I load on Redding dies almost exclusively - the adjustability / repeatability is gold. This applies to seaters, neck sizers, body dies and bump dies (shoulder HS) Redding stuff is ground / reamed to superb concentricity - using crappy standard dies vs competition ones can be measured in TIR at the contact point on the bullet ogive. Personally on my 1K ammo - nothing over .001 goes in the chamber. .002 is the cull point for 600yd ammo and .003 is 200/300 ammo. Beyond that - it goes to the practice bin or my son to kill dirt. That being said - he doesn't get much ammo to shoot dirt with. It is rare that I cull 1 or 2% out of a 500 cartridge load session.
Also - use good strong RIGID presses. I load all my ammo on Redding T-6 & T-7 turret presses. I have a box of all brands of cheap single stage presses that I bought, used and learned the had way. Some are relegated to nothing more that punching primers or pulling bullets.
- Crimping and not crimping - NEVER EVER crimp a match bullet EVER. The only time you should even consider it is is the bullet of choice has a canelure in it. If it doesn't - then don't - that simple. Some of the 77gr Mk262Mod1 ammo has a (cough) canelure...ok if you want to call it that - it is the slightest of slight canelures and offers just enough "bite" so that the 77's won't set back under recoil / FA fire. Don't even consider, if they still sel them - the tools that will canelure a bullet - waste of $ and you're wrecking a good match bullet.
- Loading to be just off the lands or kissing the lands - or INTO the lands. Very very complicated topic. I start ALL ammo development with the bullet touching the lands - charges reduced accordingly. This way you are puting the pressure spike up front in your load development. Once you develop the powder type / charge weight, you can use seating depth to tune the load. SMK's are built with relatively thick jackets - so they very tolerant of jump. But..you find that different rifles, barrels, bullets etc have their own individuals likes / dislikes. For a gas gun, I tend to stay away from a load that has to be jammed into the lands. But there are exceptions - my 1K LR service rifle - AR shot 90gr JLK VLD's .005 into the lands - I had to be very very careful if I had to unload a live round - the possibility of extracting the case and leaving the bullet in the throat is real - along with all the powder in the bolt lugs...not cool. Some barrels have a lead / throat cut so long that you CAN'T load to touch the lands - in that case - load to the longest length you can and still feed through the mag. Witht he GAP10 - you'lll be limited to internal mag dimensions. Bolt guns can be single loaded.
Quantifying this - in a specific instance - loading for my 40X .308 - it loves 168SMK's on the lands - to be specific - just touching. The difference? .020 off, opens the group by 30%. The LR AR? from .005 in to say .010 off - would take that group and double its size at 300yds duing one of my velocity test sessions. On target at 1K - it would have been ugly.
- Uniforming primer pockets - easy stuff, one time and you're done. Definitely worth it. It also contributes to CONSISTENCY of the case.
- Deburring flash holes - same as above.
- Bumping shoulders VS resizing to factory specs - in a gas gun - full length resize. If you bump a shoulder in a gas gun reloading - you will be pounding out a stuck case - IF you can even get the bolt to close. Brass is extracted and ejected hot and still under pressure, read "plastic" state - ESPECIALLY in an AR10 type platform. Put a mike on fired brass about 1/3 up from the bottom and compare to new unfired brass - the diameters grow considerably. You will need to full length resize for the GAP10. Bolt guns are happy when you feed them fire formed brass - you've basically custom sized the brass to your chamber. For that, you'll only need to neck size - and maybe every 5 or 6 loadings, bump the shoulder to maintain the right cartridge headspace.
Others have opined about bushing neck dies - great investment - and another tool to fine tune the ammo re: neck tension. It also offers you flexibility - case in point, I can pop out a .332 bushing for that 40X (tight neck/turned brass) and drop a .339 bushing in to load LC brass for my M14. Super simple and precise.
There is a lot of good advice - Accurate Shooter (6BR.com) is excellent.
Final thought - (sorry for the long post)...one aspect that befuddles and confuses reloaders, not to mention wasting bullets, powder, barrel life etc is the actual development process. All too often I see reloaders who have loaded for years, repeat the some old wasteful routine. They'll load 3 - 10 rounds of the same charge and have 10 different charges; 30 -100 rds of ammo and proceed to shoot each charge for group. They end up with a stack of targets with a whole bunch of different groups - they pick the smallest one and declare victory. Wrong wrong wrong.
I would strongly suggest a ladder method or incremental load method where you'd only need to shoot 1, maybe 3 rounds of each charge weight. Based on analysis of vertical stringing, you'll be able to ID the accuracy nodes in your various charges - in a 308 you'll probably see 3 or 4 charges separated by maybe .2/.3grs or a range of .6-.8grs that all shoot to the same elevation - they'll cluster. This is a sweat spot and if you start your fine tuning in the center of that sweat spot (charge weight wise), you'll get to a seriously accurate load far quicker with exponnentially greater confindence that you truly have an accurate load for that rifle. The fine tuning will consist of bumping the charge weight up/down in smaller increments on each side of the sweet spot and playing with seating depth. Loading to the center of that sweet spot will also build in a buffer for atmospheric issues - i.e. temperature changes. That guy who picked that really cool looking group using that outdated inefficient method unknowingly picked one that was right on the hiry edge of a pressure issue. That great group shout in 50deg weather starts pooping primers and leaking gas in his face in the spring time in 70deg weather. The center charge of the sweet spot will prevent that. How do you think that factory loaded match ammo manages to maintain accuracy in nearly every type of condition?
Hope this helps - its only 1% of the the realm....
What are your questions?
Quick Draw
12-11-13, 16:39
Not my post but thank you for replying. I have learned a lot even though I do not consider myself a precision reloader.
When you feel like sharing more I will be all ears.
My $.02 as someone who hand loads .308WIN and .338LM for match grade ammo in my bolt-guns.
- Turning case necks
Don't waste your time/money, not at least at this stage. Something reserved for the bench rest guys looking for that .00001 increase in accuracy.
- Using bench rest primers VS standard primers
Don't waste your time/money, not at least at this stage. Something reserved for the bench rest guys looking for that .00001 increase in accuracy.
- Using competition seating dies over standard dies
There is only two advantages to the Competition dies in my eyes. First is they typically come with a micrometer seating head. This doesn't actually increase accuracy of the dies at all, it simply makes changing settings easier and faster. Once the seating depth of the die is set, there is no difference in a die with or without the micrometer. The second advantage is most Competition dies include bushings for the neck portion of the resizing action. The advantage here is your can custom tune the neck sizing to just below your chamber size. That way you are not "over working" the brass.
My honest opinion, you can get same accuracy out of a good standard set of dies as you can from any Competition set. All of my dies are standard RCBS or standard Redding.
- Crimping and not crimping
Always crimp. Crimping increases accuracy as the case mouth pressure on the projectile is the same from round to round. Over crimping can cause issues, so understand the correct use of crimping.
- Loading to be just off the lands or kissing the lands
I've honestly yet to play with this. I bought the Hornady OAL gauge that allows you to measure and set "bullet jump" from the lands, but yet to try it out. I've always heard kissing or touching the lands can be a big issue as it will drastically increase chamber pressure.
- Uniforming primer pockets
I have the RCBS Case Prep Station and do this as one of the steps on all my match grade brass. Does it make a huge difference, no idea but it's easy enough step in the case prep process so I do it.
- Deburring flash holes
Same as above, but don't think it offers much.
- Bumping shoulders VS resizing to factory specs
Bolt-gun vs. semi-auto, two completely different stories on this topic. With semi-auto you want to full-length resize every single time to guarantee reliable round cycling. However with bolt-guns this isn't the case, and you instead want to have the upmost in accuracy while also saving your valuable match brass. For this reason on bolt-guns it's recommended to full-length case size the first time, then fire the round and from that point on only neck size until the round is difficult to drop the bolt. At that point, do a full-length resize, wash, rinse, repeat.
opsoff1,
Awesome, awesome, awesome post! That is a lot to take in, and I definitely will. I cut/pasted that to a word doc for reference later. I'm definitely going to take your advice on finding the sweet spot and then playing with OALs. Thanks again for taking the time to post all that.
Just to clarify.... When I said bumping the shoulders, what I meant was... full length resizing, but adjusting the die to only bump the shoulder back a certain amount. I'm using a Dillon rifle die to resize and it is a FL sizing die. I currently have it adjusted to bump the shoulder back .002 on fire-formed cases. I measure this with a bump gauge. I fired off 50 rounds sized this way a week ago and they all fed/chambered/extracted/ejected perfectly.
Primer pocket uniforming, flash hole uniforming, and neck turning unless your running a tight necked reamer don't bother.
The more important items is consistant fat necked brass LC or Federal from the same batch/lot (mine runs .339 loaded), uniform primer seating, uniform neck tension and case/loaded round contricity. Since your running a gasser, if you decide to use a taper crimp die uniform case length will go towards a more uniform crimp.
I personally think case contricity when bumping the shoulder back .002 and neck sizing is important.
ETA: The use of a hand primer will give more feel and uniform primer seating than using press accessory priming units.
Competition dies are great, but the redding dies should not be used for compressed loads. Rcbs has there gold medal match dies that have a micrometer along with a window that you drop the bullet into and it holds the bullet until you pull the handle to seat the bullet. It acts like a bullet feeder one bullet at a time.
If anyone is more intersted in it someone started a thread about them a while back with detailed information.
QuietShootr
12-12-13, 07:25
Huh... this guy knows his shit. How often does that happen??
SW,
Interesting and broad based post. That being said - when you get into precision reloading, there are very distinct processes that are specific to bolt & gas guns.
So, if up front your looking at the GAP10, then specific items on your list are applicable and different ones are more appropriate for a bolt gun.
I would also offer this one word as the hallmark for anything and everything that is remotely connected to precision / accuracy based reloading practices:
CONSISTENCY - write that on the back of your hand, backwards on your forehead - so you can read it in the mirror :D and every flat surface on your reloading bench.
Its that important.
- Turning case necks
Don't bother for either - ESPECIALLY a gas gun. Recipe for major problems. For a bolt gun, this is only needed when your chamber has been cut with a custom reamer designed for specific clearance/dimensioned brass... read high end bench/LR guns. Turning necks is a whole other world and it opens up your wallet and drains your time. I turn necks on a custom / precision .308 40X w/ a 20" Krieger. The reamer is a .339 neck. I turn Lapua to .0145" This gives me .002 clearance. It's finicky - I have to keep the rifle /chamber clean and turning the brass is a labor intensive effort. I use K&M turners and a powered collet to spin the brass. Results??? I'd be hard pressed to quantify it other than it shoots under .5 MOA with boring regularity. When I say .5, I mean .5 - like 30 or 40 rounds will go into a group that I can cover with a quarter (.955 if you're wondering)
Note: Personal rant / pet peeve - all to often you'll see claims that "My M740A6 blah blah blah shoots .5 MOA or .250 MOA all day long...these claims and the trigger pullers themselves are seriously suspect and are generally the product of a one time 3 shot group.
Remember the important word? Will your rifle / ammo & you CONSISTENTLY generate .5 MOA groups day in day out? That is in reality, a rare feat that lives in the stratosphere of custom guns. I've shot .3 or .4" groups with a rack grade M70 in 30-06 with hunting ammo - BUT they were 3 shot groups and I can't even remotely consistently repeat it. Is it a .5moa gun - sure on the internet.....in reality - not a chance.
Rant off.
- Using bench rest primers VS standard primers - experimentation will show results. In a gas gun - don't bother. Too many other variables. I shot NM High Power Service Rifle for nearly 20 yrs. Made High Master shooting across the course 200/300/600yds - I never ever shot BR or Match primers at 600yds - ever. I shot primed LC 556 brass with the standard GI M-41 primer. Guns shot MOA or better - meaning if I did my part and mother nature didn't offer up a big huff n' puff - the ammo rifle me combo could hold the x ring.
Now - different story at 1K - I always used CCI BR primers for that ammo - but we are talking about HIGHLY developed VLD based loads. At 1k a 20fps velocity dip will take you out of the 10 ring. These loads were HIGHLY developed and had velocity extreme spreads (22rds min) of less than 15fps. I rarely lost a point to elevation. SD's ran in the single digits.
CONSISTENCY
- Using competition seating dies over standard dies - ABSOLUTELY. I load on Redding dies almost exclusively - the adjustability / repeatability is gold. This applies to seaters, neck sizers, body dies and bump dies (shoulder HS) Redding stuff is ground / reamed to superb concentricity - using crappy standard dies vs competition ones can be measured in TIR at the contact point on the bullet ogive. Personally on my 1K ammo - nothing over .001 goes in the chamber. .002 is the cull point for 600yd ammo and .003 is 200/300 ammo. Beyond that - it goes to the practice bin or my son to kill dirt. That being said - he doesn't get much ammo to shoot dirt with. It is rare that I cull 1 or 2% out of a 500 cartridge load session.
Also - use good strong RIGID presses. I load all my ammo on Redding T-6 & T-7 turret presses. I have a box of all brands of cheap single stage presses that I bought, used and learned the had way. Some are relegated to nothing more that punching primers or pulling bullets.
- Crimping and not crimping - NEVER EVER crimp a match bullet EVER. The only time you should even consider it is is the bullet of choice has a canelure in it. If it doesn't - then don't - that simple. Some of the 77gr Mk262Mod1 ammo has a (cough) canelure...ok if you want to call it that - it is the slightest of slight canelures and offers just enough "bite" so that the 77's won't set back under recoil / FA fire. Don't even consider, if they still sel them - the tools that will canelure a bullet - waste of $ and you're wrecking a good match bullet.
- Loading to be just off the lands or kissing the lands - or INTO the lands. Very very complicated topic. I start ALL ammo development with the bullet touching the lands - charges reduced accordingly. This way you are puting the pressure spike up front in your load development. Once you develop the powder type / charge weight, you can use seating depth to tune the load. SMK's are built with relatively thick jackets - so they very tolerant of jump. But..you find that different rifles, barrels, bullets etc have their own individuals likes / dislikes. For a gas gun, I tend to stay away from a load that has to be jammed into the lands. But there are exceptions - my 1K LR service rifle - AR shot 90gr JLK VLD's .005 into the lands - I had to be very very careful if I had to unload a live round - the possibility of extracting the case and leaving the bullet in the throat is real - along with all the powder in the bolt lugs...not cool. Some barrels have a lead / throat cut so long that you CAN'T load to touch the lands - in that case - load to the longest length you can and still feed through the mag. Witht he GAP10 - you'lll be limited to internal mag dimensions. Bolt guns can be single loaded.
Quantifying this - in a specific instance - loading for my 40X .308 - it loves 168SMK's on the lands - to be specific - just touching. The difference? .020 off, opens the group by 30%. The LR AR? from .005 in to say .010 off - would take that group and double its size at 300yds duing one of my velocity test sessions. On target at 1K - it would have been ugly.
- Uniforming primer pockets - easy stuff, one time and you're done. Definitely worth it. It also contributes to CONSISTENCY of the case.
- Deburring flash holes - same as above.
- Bumping shoulders VS resizing to factory specs - in a gas gun - full length resize. If you bump a shoulder in a gas gun reloading - you will be pounding out a stuck case - IF you can even get the bolt to close. Brass is extracted and ejected hot and still under pressure, read "plastic" state - ESPECIALLY in an AR10 type platform. Put a mike on fired brass about 1/3 up from the bottom and compare to new unfired brass - the diameters grow considerably. You will need to full length resize for the GAP10. Bolt guns are happy when you feed them fire formed brass - you've basically custom sized the brass to your chamber. For that, you'll only need to neck size - and maybe every 5 or 6 loadings, bump the shoulder to maintain the right cartridge headspace.
Others have opined about bushing neck dies - great investment - and another tool to fine tune the ammo re: neck tension. It also offers you flexibility - case in point, I can pop out a .332 bushing for that 40X (tight neck/turned brass) and drop a .339 bushing in to load LC brass for my M14. Super simple and precise.
There is a lot of good advice - Accurate Shooter (6BR.com) is excellent.
Final thought - (sorry for the long post)...one aspect that befuddles and confuses reloaders, not to mention wasting bullets, powder, barrel life etc is the actual development process. All too often I see reloaders who have loaded for years, repeat the some old wasteful routine. They'll load 3 - 10 rounds of the same charge and have 10 different charges; 30 -100 rds of ammo and proceed to shoot each charge for group. They end up with a stack of targets with a whole bunch of different groups - they pick the smallest one and declare victory. Wrong wrong wrong.
I would strongly suggest a ladder method or incremental load method where you'd only need to shoot 1, maybe 3 rounds of each charge weight. Based on analysis of vertical stringing, you'll be able to ID the accuracy nodes in your various charges - in a 308 you'll probably see 3 or 4 charges separated by maybe .2/.3grs or a range of .6-.8grs that all shoot to the same elevation - they'll cluster. This is a sweat spot and if you start your fine tuning in the center of that sweat spot (charge weight wise), you'll get to a seriously accurate load far quicker with exponnentially greater confindence that you truly have an accurate load for that rifle. The fine tuning will consist of bumping the charge weight up/down in smaller increments on each side of the sweet spot and playing with seating depth. Loading to the center of that sweet spot will also build in a buffer for atmospheric issues - i.e. temperature changes. That guy who picked that really cool looking group using that outdated inefficient method unknowingly picked one that was right on the hiry edge of a pressure issue. That great group shout in 50deg weather starts pooping primers and leaking gas in his face in the spring time in 70deg weather. The center charge of the sweet spot will prevent that. How do you think that factory loaded match ammo manages to maintain accuracy in nearly every type of condition?
Hope this helps - its only 1% of the the realm....
What are your questions?
One of the only things I would add is if you have to swage your primer pockets to remove the crimp there's the potential for the swager to push inner burrs or flashing into the flash hole on the inside. Out of about 200 once fired cases I bought already swaged, I'd say 50% of them had this issue. It could have just been the person setting up the swager but something to think about. The chunks were in the flash hole fairly firm and took a little force to trim them out.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=22033&d=1386867399
Anthony.L;1811577]My $.02 as someone who hand loads .308WIN and .338LM for match grade ammo in my bolt-guns.
Always crimp. Crimping increases accuracy as the case mouth pressure on the projectile is the same from round to round. Over crimping can cause issues, so understand the correct use of crimping.
Anthony.L,
I have to respectfully take issue with the above statement. Important to note that I do not want to start any war or pissing contest. I will however strongly disagree with your opinion on crimping.
It is important to note that I do not engage in unfounded suppositions - my data, processes and opinion is grounded in decades as a professional - as a shooter, gunsmith, ammunition developer and professional (read paid) competitor.
With that said - and dealing specifically with match grade bullets - as the OP first brought to the table:
1. Crimping does NOT increase accuracy.
2. Crimping does not contribute to developing the same case mouth pressure.
Crimping has absolutely zero place on a match grade bullet.
If you crimp a case neck onto a match grade bullet - you are without question distorting the bullet. This is not opinion - it is fact. A crimp mechanically displaces the jacket which in turn displaces the lead core. That core MUST move somewhere - it is going in one of two directions - front or back. If it moves rearward, then the result will be a distorted base or boattail. It it moves forward, it will fill some of the void near the meplat (tip/hollowpoint area). This will impact the CG and you'll get a nose heavy bullet that will exhibit all sorts of gyroscopic permutations - i.e. potentially severe precession. Additionally, when shooting bullets that are made with high end jackets - i.e. J4's - these thin jackets can experience jacket separation from the core - usually evidenced by small grey puffs of smoke about 20ft from the muzzle...that's the bullet coming apart in flight.
Almost 10 years ago I had a long conversation with Walt Berger. He knows a bit about bullet design. I was in the midst of developing long range 556 ammo (1000yds stuff) using his 90gr VLD bullet. VLD's are finicky and sensitive to all sorts of external influences. The discussion centered around designing the throat / free bore / lead angle in the chamber to take full advantage of this bullet - which is very long. My initial direction was to find a length where I had nearly zero free space in the case (100% load density) I knew basically what the charge weights were going to be - fairly narrow window. So, the intent was to put the base of the bullet right above the powder column. He ran some calculations and came back to me with; "That won't work, you destroy the accuracy of the bullet." He went on to explain that pushing a bullet too far down inside the case, powder column will actually collapse the boat tail when the cartridge is fired. Once ANY distortion of the base occures - accuracy is gone. This small detail changed the entire approach - I went with a slower powder / increased the load density back up to take up the space in the case along with the obviously longer length. (BTW - a LR 90gr VLD 556 is about 2.520" long) The point of this story is that during our conversations - I sarcasticlly said to him that I guess I won't crimp the bullets either. He didn't think that was funny. This lead into a discussion on crimping. There is a need for it in certain pistol ammo, lead bullets (especially with lube) heavy recoiling large caliber hunting bullets and military ammo that is used in semi-auto / full-auto weapons. A crimp is used to prevent setback under recoil when the cartidges are in a magazine or belt. As far using a crimp on a match grade bullet... utter blasphemy. DO NOT DO IT.
As further evidence - consider the US GI match grade ammo program. I would submit that the engineers at Frankford Arsenal, LC and countelss other ballistic labs considered crimping - in every single instance and type - the bullets are NOT crimped.
M-72 Cal .30 w/ 173gr FMJBT - no crimp
XM-118 Experimantal w/ 173gr FMJBT - no crimp
M-118 National Match w/ 173gr FMJBT - no crimp
M-118 Special Ball w/ 173gr FMJBT - no crimp
M-852 Match w/ 168gr HPBT - no crimp
M-118 Long Range w/ 175gr HPBT - no crimp
Mk 316 Mod 0 w/ 175gr HPBT - no crimp
M262 Mod 0 w/ 77gr HPBT - no crimp
None of the Federal Gold Medal match has a crimp, none and we shot the 69gr stuff out of the box at 200 & 300 yds - it would shoot high high x count cleans. Same same with the 77gr loads. None had / has a canelure or crimp.
The only exceptions are the Mk262 Mod 1 which has a FAINT canelure in the bullet from the mfr and the 556 Optimized w/ 70gr TSX - BOTH designed BTW as COMBAT loads - they are accurate due to the quality of the bullet, but they are not type classified as precision/match grade ammunition. (additionally the 70gr TSX is a solid copper bullet - no core)
The only "treatment" on the necks of all that GI match ammo is/was an asphalt sealant - which by the way was found to increase accuracy when the seal was actually broken. We would run all the ammo through a bullet puller to slightly pull the bullet by an 1/8", then reseat to proper length.
Every one of those match loadings was run through gas guns & mag fed weapons.
So - bottom line after all my hot air. If the bullet does not have a canelure - DO NOT CRIMP IT.
If you want to gain consistency (there's that word again :cool:) in a neck area process, then expanding on a precision mandrel will help (gets the necks perfectly round) then turn the neck to achieve the exact same wall thickness for a full 360 deg. then run the brass through a bushing neck sizer - you will gain astoundingly consistent neck tension which WILL impove acuracy. If you want to go full psychotic, then get into neck annealing and get a hardness gauge..
Hope this helps, and again, nothing personal Anthony, just trying to offer hard data to refute all the internet drizzle and poop.
The only exceptions are the Mk262 Mod 1 which has a FAINT canelure in the bullet from the mfr
Mark 262 Mod 1 uses a bullet with crenellation (vice a cannelure actually crimped into the jacket, risking a core/jacket separation) because that's what the Navy asked for. I don't believe it's actually crimped rather than fitted with proper neck tension and waterproofing sealer (you'd have to ask Jeff Hoffman at Black Hills).
http://i47.tinypic.com/25uifk9.jpg
One of the only things I would add is if you have to swage your primer pockets to remove the crimp there's the potential for the swager to push inner burrs or flashing into the flash hole on the inside. Out of about 200 once fired cases I bought already swaged, I'd say 50% of them had this issue. It could have just been the person setting up the swager but something to think about. The chunks were in the flash hole fairly firm and took a little force to trim them out.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=22033&d=1386867399
SixEight,
That appears to be flash hole burrs from the punching/manufacturing process - not from your swaging efforts. Those burrs are common on most domestic cases as the flash holes are punched through. High end brass like Lapua, Norma etc have drilled/reamed flash holes - burrs are very uncommon in those cases. I don't think you did anything wrong - just the result of the manufacturing process.
Sinister,
I wasn't aware of the exact terminology - but you are exactly correct - thanks for the info!
BTW - the title of this whole thread is like crack - it's addictive - I love to talk about precision reloading.
BTW - the title of this whole thread is like crack - it's addictive - I love to talk about precision reloading.
Good 'cause I like to listen. :)
I've learned a few things in this thread already, so thank you.
Sent via Tapatalk
BTW - the title of this whole thread is like crack - it's addictive - I love to talk about precision reloading.
Very, very interesting. By all means, talk, because I'm soaking it up like a sponge.
SixEight,
That appears to be flash hole burrs from the punching/manufacturing process - not from your swaging efforts. Those burrs are common on most domestic cases as the flash holes are punched through. High end brass like Lapua, Norma etc have drilled/reamed flash holes - burrs are very uncommon in those cases. I don't think you did anything wrong - just the result of the manufacturing process.
Well, like I said, I didn't swage the brass myself...I bought this brass from someone who had fired it once and swaged it. This is 6.8 Federal brass. I'd be curious to see if 6.8 Federal brass has the same flattened burrs/flashing down inside the flash holes before it's swaged. I tend to agree with you that it could be the flash hole forming because I would expected residual burrs/flashing to be much easier to remove than what I've experienced. Regardless, some cases have it and some don't so I personally want them uniform.
This picture is a cross section of one of the cases. It's really rough because all I had was a Dremel tool cut off wheel so ignore the warped look. Notice around the flash hole inside the case that the base isn't flat but drops like a half donut around the flash hole. Other people have confirmed this is normal. That would seem to me to make it a lot easier for the support head of the swager to crush part of the brass into the flash hole.
For the record, I have nothing against Federal brass. It's half the price of Hornady or SSA so a little prep work doesn't bother me in the least. I'm just trying to learn about the swaging because I believe you can overdo it and lead to making the primer pocket loose. I would think that much force could do something to the inside of the case especially if the support head is out of alignment or isn't smooth itself.
I've decided to stick with the crimp removers chucked in a drill that cut the crimp off from the outside until I know more.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=22039&d=1386881479
SixEight -
Great stuff - I think you absolutely may be on to something with the internal support for the swager. And the info you got re: the contour of the internal case head area is correct - a lot of different mfr's / caliber exhibitr this. Re: sawging - my knee-jerk is the same as your idea - cut 'em. I wouldn't waste the time and actually create more work for yourself.
On a side note - is it the picture or is that flash hole actually at an angle??
Also - apologies to SWThomas, I didn't mean to hijack the thread.
v/r
SixEight -
Great stuff - I think you absolutely may be on to something with the internal support for the swager. And the info you got re: the contour of the internal case head area is correct - a lot of different mfr's / caliber exhibitr this. Re: sawging - my knee-jerk is the same as your idea - cut 'em. I wouldn't waste the time and actually create more work for yourself.
On a side note - is it the picture or is that flash hole actually at an angle??
That's just the poor angle I managed to cut the case apart with the Dremel tool without doing too much damage.
Also - apologies to SWThomas, I didn't mean to hijack the thread.
v/r
I don't think you hijacked the thread because the discussion about flash hole uniforming people are tending to say no. It may not be a problem with 5.56 brass but if the inner webbing is donut shaped like this a swage could introduce inconsistency and more work than it saves. I think most would agree more Q and A is better than none.
ETA:
And with flash hole uniforming being more or less a one-time thing I don't think it can hurt accuracy and may actually help it.
And with flash hole uniforming being more or less a one-time thing I don't think it can hurt accuracy and may actually help it.
SixEight
This brings up a point that is really the foundation of precision reloading - consistency. In a nutshell, we work the bejezzus out of the brass doing all sorts of cruel things to it in search of tiny groups. If we back up and from the git-go, focus on operations that build consistency, we cut out a ton of frustration down the road.
I'm pressed for time - but I will expound on this later if folks are interested.
SixEight
This brings up a point that is really the foundation of precision reloading - consistency. In a nutshell, we work the bejezzus out of the brass doing all sorts of cruel things to it in search of tiny groups. If we back up and from the git-go, focus on operations that build consistency, we cut out a ton of frustration down the road.
I'm pressed for time - but I will expound on this later if folks are interested.
This is why I do everything I can to uniform my brass.
Uniforming primer pockets. Check.
Deburring flash holes. Check.
Keeping shoulder bump to an acceptable minimum. Check.
Trimming to uniform length. Check.
Chamfer/debur case mouth. Check.
These tools are cheap and why not? Like I said...it can't hurt accuracy and may help. It all depends if you want to invest the time or not.
Loading to be just a few thousandths behind the lands. Would like to if I could.
Using competition dies. Ditto.
Turning neck cases. Negative.
Crimping. Negative.
I've seen no evidence of the last two creating much of an appreciable gain in accuracy. Plenty of people don't do it and can shoot .1 MOA or better. :)
Precision reloading and crimping are mutually exclusive.
Opsoff1,
Please share more. Great information. I learned a ton from that single post.
Also - apologies to SWThomas, I didn't mean to hijack the thread.
v/r
No complaints here. Any educational information you can add will help out overall.
Opsoff1,
I was going back over your first post more carefully and there's a lot of good info. I have a question about the powder charge ladders. I'm familiar with the concept but need a little more clarification. If you shoot only 1-3 loads at each incremental powder charge how can you be sure you didn't pull one or more of those shots and mess up the group? 5 or more shots with a cluster and maybe a few outliers would still seem to me to give you the best accuracy nodes. I'm just starting load dev so take that into consideration.
Something new to add to the die discussion...
You mentioned the strength of the press which I think is crucial. I was having trouble with consistent head spacing using a conventional small base resizing die. Someone suggested instead of the dies or press being the problem, play or slack in the shell holder, press and die may be the problem. Sure enough using arbor shims between the shell holder and dies takes out the slack and leads to extremely consistent head space. The cam-over you get is scary at first but a good press and dies will handle it. You guys can find more info on the shims unless you can find competition shell holders for the caliber you load in.
Redding makes a set of competition shell holders which replaces the shims. The shell holders are progressively thicker than the standard shell holder by .002" increments. The idea is to start with a fairly thick shell holder, adjust your resizing die until you're .002" longer than your target head space. Then drop to a .002" thinner shell holder and bingo you have your target head space.
Does anybody fix bullet runout and see increased accuracy?
Opsoff1,
If you shoot only 1-3 loads at each incremental powder charge how can you be sure you didn't pull one or more of those shots and mess up the group?
That's why a solid rest and disciplined trigger control is a must. Hell, it's a must for any rifle shooting.
Does anybody fix bullet runout and see increased accuracy?
I'm still learning, but I've gathered that you can't really "fix" run out once the bullet has been assembled. To truely fix it you would need to diagnose what is introducing the run out into the loading process and figure out how to eliminate it.
I'm still learning, but I've gathered that you can't really "fix" run out once the bullet has been assembled. To truely fix it you would need to diagnose what is introducing the run out into the loading process and figure out how to eliminate it.
This is the tool I was referring to. A concentricity gauge to actually fix any runout.
Is it worth the money and time? I have no idea.
http://www.hornady.com/store/Ammunition-Concentricity-Tool/
This is the tool I was referring to. A concentricity gauge to actually fix any runout.
Is it worth the money and time? I have no idea.
http://www.hornady.com/store/Ammunition-Concentricity-Tool/
That's what I was referring to also. It basically bends the bullet in the case mouth for force it to be concentric. But it doesn't fix what it introducing the run out.
That's what I was referring to also. It basically bends the bullet in the case mouth for force it to be concentric. But it doesn't fix what it introducing the run out.
It thought it straightened the bullet up in the case neck. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something a pro can clear up. Lol.
I don't see why you would want to bend the bullet.
It thought it straightened the bullet up in the case neck. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something a pro can clear up. Lol.
I don't see why you would want to bend the bullet.
I'm not sure what they're talking about, but if I'm not careful, the 77gr SMK I load will not seat perfectly straight everytime. So no, the case mouth will not completely straighten the bullet. Not sure if the die is too short and not seating on the ogive or what the deal is...
I'm not sure what they're talking about, but if I'm not careful, the 77gr SMK I load will not seat perfectly straight everytime. So no, the case mouth will not completely straighten the bullet. Not sure if the die is too short and not seating on the ogive or what the deal is...
I've heard that seating the bullet half way, backing off and rotating the case 180 degrees, and then seating it the rest of the way works for concentricity.
QuietShootr
12-14-13, 22:53
Does anybody fix bullet runout and see increased accuracy?
You're ****ing A right. I was getting .002-004 TIR with a Redding T7 and standard seating die with micrometer add-on stem, and over the long term I was about 3/4MOA. I switched to a Wilson chamber die and an arbor press, and TIR went to <.002 and I started getting well under .5MOA groups consistently. I'm told that the Redding comp die will give comparable results, but the problem is that Redding doesn't recommend it for compressed loads...and my 1k+ .308 load is compressed as ****.
You could use a Forster Benchrest seating die to avoid banana-shaped cartridges.
Redding copied Forster's sliding bullet seater once the patent expired. I've cracked Reddings over the years seating over compressed loads.
Forsters are MUCH more durable and seat bullets straighter with less run-out.
Wilson straight seaters using an arbor press are hard to beat but much slower.
You can find almost everything your heart desires for precision loading in the Sinclair International reloading catalog.
There are two kinds of runout as far as the bullet/case relationship goes, radial and axial. Axial runout is when the bullet sits in the case mouth crooked. Imagine making circles in the air with your index finger, arm straight, with your shoulder as the pivot. Radial runout is caused by a coaxiality difference between the case mouth axis and the case body axis, assuming the two are parallel. Again, making the circles in the air but with your finger and forearm staying parallel with the ground. This type of runout is set before the bullet seating takes place. It can be caused by many factors including unequal case wall thickness, crooked expanders, press ram/die misalignment, etc. Straight line seaters can help with the axial runout, radial runout is a more complicated issue.
QuietShootr
12-15-13, 11:40
You could use a Forster Benchrest seating die to avoid banana-shaped cartridges.
Redding copied Forster's sliding bullet seater once the patent expired. I've cracked Reddings over the years seating over compressed loads.
Forsters are MUCH more durable and seat bullets straighter with less run-out.
Wilson straight seaters using an arbor press are hard to beat but much slower.
You can find almost everything your heart desires for precision loading in the Sinclair International reloading catalog.
Oh, trust me... I have so much Sinclair swag around here...
I think I will try the Forster Bench Rest die on your recommendation. It's even cheaper than the Redding anyway.
Oh, trust me... I have so much Sinclair swag around here...
I think I will try the Forster Bench Rest die on your recommendation. It's even cheaper than the Redding anyway.
No kidding. Almost half the price and I may not need the runout gauge as bad if at all.
I may get one myself.
How many of you guys use a progressive to load your precision ammo?
SeriousStudent
12-15-13, 21:01
I'm really enjoying this thread, and appreciate you folks that contributed to it. I've been working on a precision bolt gun for a year now, and this thread is very useful to that end.
How many of you guys use a progressive to load your precision ammo?
I use a progressive (Hornady LNL AP) for all of my reloading. I only use it as a progressive for pistol cartridges. For rifle cartridges I use one station at a time like a single stage press. I'm not a hard core precision rifle re-loader like a couple of the guys in this thread. I started out loading 12ga and pistol (9mm, 45ACP, 44Mag & 357Mag) about 10 years ago. I can pound really good shotgun and pistol loads out like it is my job. I've been thinking of picking up a couple of single stage presses for rifle because I absolutely HATE setting things up and changing calibers.
I have to admit I was a bit surprised at the amount of case prep and work required to reload rifle cartridges safely and accurately, when I started rifle reloading roughly 4 years ago.
I learn something new every day and have pretty much perfected my process for rifle at this point.
The guys in this thread inspired me to order Redding precision die sets for both .308 & .223, they'll be here on Wednesday. I might have jumped the gun a bit based on the Forrester comments a day after I placed my order! :)
Letzgoracin301
12-16-13, 08:47
I use a progressive (Hornady LNL AP) for all of my reloading. I only use it as a progressive for pistol cartridges. For rifle cartridges I use on station at a time like a single stage press. I'm not a hard core precision rifle re-loader like a couple of the guys in this thread. I started out loading 12ga and pistol (9mm, 45ACP, 44Mag & 357Mag) about 10 years ago. I can pound really good shotgun and pistol loads out like it is my job. I've been thinking of picking up a couple of single stage presses for rifle because I absolutely HATE setting things up and changing calibers.
I have to admit I was a bit surprised at the amount of case prep and work required to reload rifle cartridges safely and accurately, when I started rifle reloading roughly 4 years ago.
I learn something new every day and have pretty much perfected my process for rifle at this point.
The guys in this thread inspired me to order Redding precision die sets for both .308 & .223, they'll be here on Wednesday. I might have jumped the gun a bit based on the Forrester comments a day after I placed my order! :)
I don't know how well they work I haven't used them yet, but you can convert some single stage presses to take the Hornady LNL bushings.
Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk
QuietShootr
12-16-13, 10:15
How many of you guys use a progressive to load your precision ammo?
If anyone says "yes", I want them to define what they call satisfactory accuracy.
QuietShootr
12-16-13, 10:17
You could use a Forster Benchrest seating die to avoid banana-shaped cartridges.
Redding copied Forster's sliding bullet seater once the patent expired. I've cracked Reddings over the years seating over compressed loads.
Forsters are MUCH more durable and seat bullets straighter with less run-out.
Wilson straight seaters using an arbor press are hard to beat but much slower.
You can find almost everything your heart desires for precision loading in the Sinclair International reloading catalog.
You know, on second thought. The Wilson straight seater is unsurpassed for precision by any press-mounted die, correct?
If anyone says "yes", I want them to define what they call satisfactory accuracy.
Why's that? If a progressive produces concentric ammo, why wouldn't someone use one? I'm not talking about cranking them out. I'm talking about using a progressive, in single stage mode, to load precision ammo.
QuietShootr
12-16-13, 10:56
Why's that? If a progressive produces concentric ammo, why wouldn't someone use one? I'm not talking about cranking them out. I'm talking about using a progressive, in single stage mode, to load precision ammo.
There's a reason I'm discussing Wilson hand dies vs. a press-mounted seater above. It's not because you can load 1/4MOA ammo in a Dillon 550. If you could, people would be doing it.
The Dillon 550 has been used to load ammunition for a number of national and world champion teams, including the US Palma Team.
The 550, used as a turret press vice a progressive, can crank out precision ammunition worthy of champions.
https://sphotos-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/733836_10151466249952558_1604548983_n.jpg
http://static.dvidshub.net/media/thumbs/photos/1204/557938/1000w_q75.jpg
Here's a photo story on the US Army Reserve Rifle Team doing one of their annual loading sessions at the Army Marksmanship Unit's ammunition loading facility:
http://www.usarshooters.org/longrangeammo.html
http://www.usarshooters.org/images/loading1.jpg
http://www.usarshooters.org/images/loading2.jpg
A post by Bart Bobbit from 2004, plucked from another board:
In early 1991, I helped the US Palma Team (as a former member) test Sierra's prototype 155-gr. Palma bullet for a load to use for the 1992 International Palma Matches. One of our objectives was to use only metered powder charges as the ammo would be loaded on a Dillon progressive. Seven or eight of us ended up getting best accuracy with about 45 grains of IMR4895.
Winchester had been tasked with making the cases. We wanted them to use the same case forming dies (which are still boxed in storage at the plant in East Alton, IL) used to make the famous WCC58 cases that were (and still are) the most uniform .308 Win. cases ever made. But they were too thin for Winchester's liability and legal issues, so a thicker case was made. It took their production line four tries to get the cases uniform enough in body and neck wall thickness for the Palma Team's standards.
The guy whose businesses' loading room was to be used to make the ammo had both his sons (and daughter too, I think) hand-chamfering some 300,000 case necks so bullets wouldn't have jacket material scraped off when they were seated. Then the first of two Dillon 1050 progressive machines was set up to prime and uniform the necks of the cases. Priming was easy to do using Federal 210M primers. A Lyman die with neck expander was used to uniformly size the case necks to give a medium tension on the .3084-in. diameter bullets.
A second Dillon 1050 progressive was set up to charge the primed cases and seat bullets. An indicator was used to tell if the metered powder charge was correct (visually, as well as one could see).
These two machines made all the ammo that was used in the 1991 Rocky Mountain Palma Matches International Division and the 1992 International Palma Matches; both shot at the NRA Whittington Center in Raton, NM. A single lot of powder was used, but several lots of Federal primers were used. Each time a new lot of primers were used, the ammo lot number would change. And some ammo lots shot better than others; no doubt the primers' variance caused that. One box of twenty rounds and a couple of sighters were taken to a local test range where the business owner's Palma rifle was clamped in a machine rest to test the ammo. That Model 70 with a 30-inch long, whippy barrel put 20 shots into 2.7 inches at 600 yards. That's benchrest quality.
All of which means progressive loaders can make accurate ammo. It's which one and how it's set up and used that makes the difference.
http://bits2pix.com/photos/temp%20photos/dillion550btoolhead.jpg
Paraphrasing a poster on another board, "Superior ammo will make a mediocre rifle look good"
1,000-yard 7.62 champions (185s with irons, 20-inch barrels):
http://www.armalite.com/images/Events%5CCamp%20Perry%202010%5Carmymarksmen.JPG
Yea, doubters on the accuracy of progressive loaded ammo might want to check with one G. David Tubb before they throw stones. And the AZ Junior rifle team. And....
QuietShootr
12-16-13, 12:39
Clearly, I'm doing it wrong.
My apologies for not responding sooner to some of the posts - I wrote a long detailed piece on Friday re: case prep and I lost the whole thing trying to post it. ugh.
At any rate - this thread has generated a lot of great discussion. It is this type of dialogue that moves the process forward, so kudo's to all.
I'll try to post again and see how this works...
CASE PREP.
As I have written - consistency is the foundation of all our endeavors to achieve the goal of accuracy. To be more precise - precision shooting & reloading generally are after one of two end-states; either score or small groups (size does matter!) Score shooter need that bullet to go where they intand it - whether from a wind call of a specific aiming point.
In order for us to get the value (score) or the small group - the entire system must be optimized - that is the rifle/barrel/chamber/optics/rest/YOU and the ammo.
If one of those isn't right….well your results may vary.
For the basis of our discussion, I think it is reasonable to assume that we are talking about relatively accurate / semi custom rifles. We are not into the stratosphere of the pure bench rest crowd - but close. A lot of you (me) have blueprinted actions, custom barrels and probably a plethora of reloading equipment with the desire to wring as much accuracy (consistently) as we can from our systems.
When it come to the reloading part of the system - it clearly is obvious that good equipment & measuring tools will make things exponentially easier. Bad / cheap / inconsistent tools (presses / dies & measuring equipment) will generate frustration and inconsistent results.
Of all the components that go into precision ammo - we basically have the most influence over the case. With rare exceptions, we are not making our own bullets. It is also safe to say (I hope) that no one is making or blending their own powders and primers are what they are although variety is another tuning tool. So this comes back to the case and luckily for us, our machinations of this piece of brass has by and large a significant impact on how well / accurately our ammo performs.
Precision ammo will usually show consistently small velocity spreads and low standard deviations. The shot to shot data can be seriously impressive. However – it is not uncommon to see top level bench rest guys shooting ammo that has relative large velocity spreads and kinda crappy SD’s. My game is long range accuracy – specifically 600-1000yds. I like the battle between me, my rifle, my ammo and mother nature. To this end – I employ virtually across the board, boat tail bullets. Bench rester’s of the 100yd & 200 yd variety live in the world of flat base bullets and as such, these bullets tend to “settle down” far quicker than a boat tail. This isn’t to say that you won’t get great groups with a boat tail, but it is less frustrating when chasing a group with a flat base bullet.
What all of this comes around to is the chase – and we have a tremendous number of variables. As I alluded to above, when it comes to powder, bullets & primers, we are limited to choosing. We rally can modify any of this components. The one part that we can sweat over is the case. AND lucky for us, it has a tremendous influence on our accuracy quest.
One issue that should be addressed up front is that we are limited in our case optimizing efforts to two of three basic processes; we can remove material and we can reshape material. We cannot, by and large ADD material to a piece of brass. This is linked to the old adage – measure twice cut once. Cut too much and that beautiful .308 Lapua is now trash. We’ve all been there and done that.
Now that we understand our right & left limits – removal & reshaping, lets look at the process in a step by step basis.
The first thing that needs to be done with new brass is to standardize the dimensions. Specifically, the length and the diameters - all new brass is run through a body die. The body die will resize the body diameters as well as push the junction of the neck & shoulder into a standard dimension. It will also bump the shoulder back (if you adjust it to do so). Bumping the shoulder will allow you to size the brass to the correct Head Space that MATCHES your rifle. Just for shits and giggles – a .308 Win has a Head Space (HS) range of 1.630” The max is 1.638” (Field) (Technically 1.634 is max) All my custom 308’s have minimum head space chambers, typically 1.630-1.631” I do this so I do not have to overwork the brass. Brand new unfired brass is usually far short of this - .003 - .006 shorter. So – having a min HS chamber prevents over working the brass.
Additionally, by uniforming the the neck/shoulder junction, it allows me to conduct other operations that index off the shoulder. There are also 2nd and 3rd order effects from this that I will explain later.
In order to know your HS, there are two reasonable methods – one actually measure it with gauges ($$$) or take it to a smith that has the gauges. The second is to measure your FIRED brass. WARNING: If you are shooting a gas gun, then don’t bother with this method. Most 308/762 gas operated rifles still have considerable chamber pressure when the rifle cycles and begins the extraction – this leads to stretched / distorted cases. You will get seriously distorted dimensions. This method works very well for bolt guns provided you are shooting loads in the mid to upper pressure ranges for that cartridge. If you are shooting slow/sluggish loads – the brass will not expand to mirror your chamber. This is why when people fire form, it is typically done at the upper limits.
After completion of this step, the brass should be trimmed to length. There are multiple methods – suffice to say, use the tools that will give you repeatable results. Personally I use a powered Gracie trimmer for my gas guns that not only trims to length, but chamfers and deburrs at the same time. For my precision bolt guns, I use a manual Sinclair w/ the micrometer head – VERY consistent.
Since you have set the neck / shoulder junction to a standard dimension earlier, and now have trimmed to the proper overall length – a second order effect has come of this – you have made all the necks, the same length. This is a huge aid in consistent neck tension.
As this point, it is necessary to chamfer the case neck (inside) just enough to remove the brass burr. We don’t want a funnel. Same on the outside – deburr – just enough to remove the sharp edge. Note: If you do shoot flat base bullets - it may be advantageous to cut a little bit deeper chamfer on the inside – this aids in seating and concentricity.
From here on out – most of the prep work is focused on the necks. At this point, it is necessary to offer up some thoughts on neck wall thickness. First and foremost – you get what you pay for. Lapua, Norma and other semi custom precision case mfr’s will exhibit astoundingly consistent neck concentricity and thickness. Can you produce the same from range pickup brass – probably very close, but while you are still turning and deburring, I’ll be shooting. Bottom line, the effort isn’t worth it. Some of the big US mfr’s produce brass that is every bit as good as some of the imported stuff. I use older WW white box .308 brass that is awesome. It isn’t as good as Lapua – consistently, but it is very very close.
There have been mentions of turning necks. I’ll offer this - It is a time intensive process that requires very good tooling to make it worthwhile. It is also relegated to rifles that have custom tight neck chambers to take advantage of the process. Can you turn necks for your gas gun? Sure, but what you are doing is adding more slop to the chamber / ammo relationship. Your brass will expand more and you’ll see split necks far sooner. It will also do nothing for your quest for accuracy.
Some folks will turn necks to just “even up” the wall thickness, where the cutter only removes brass from ½ or 1/3 of the neck. That can provide an added degree on uniformity and is beneficial when the brass is relatively thick.
Last part re: necks. In order to get there, you need to know what you started with. What that means is you must be able to accurately measure the neck wall thickness. If you don’t have a tubing wall micrometer – then don’t bother. Trying to measure with a set of dial calipers will give you a number – it won’t be the wall thickness, but you have a number… What you’ll actually get is the distance between the secant chord of the ID and the tangent point on the OD. For this that think, ahh it’ll be close enough…might be, but how do you account for 5, 6 or 7 measurements that were “close enough” and result in a tolerance stack?
That .0003” close enough measurement can add up pretty quick – think of it x7. Now it’s a .0021 error which may be the difference between chambering a round and actually “crimping” the bullet in the neck by way of a chamber. Then we have a pressure issue – not cool…bottom line – be careful.
After I complete these steps, I then expand the necks with a precision mandrel. It is NOT the same as an expander ball which overworks the snot out of your necks. I never ever use the factory supplied expanders unless I am forming, read necking up to different caliber. Everytime you pull a factory expander up through the neck, not only are you expanding the neck, but you're altering the HS / shoulder - it moves - I've measured it. The mandrel is actually sized to work with the K&M neck turner IF I turn the necks. If not, I use it anyway. It uniforms the ID to be VERY concentric. This aids in the proper and consistent neck sizing.
Important to note here – through all of this – the necks still have not been sized. They are uniform in ID, length, chamfer and deburring – exactly what we want.
It is at this point in the process that I attack the primer pockets, and flash holes. This WILL improve uniformity of ignition. Firing pin energy has an effect on the case as well as accuracy and having varied impacts due to different primer pocket depths will show on the target. It is an easy, one time operation. Use carbide and you never wear out the tool. Also – we go back to the uniformity of our case length, HS, neck length, neck diameter etc – the primer flash hole uniformer INDEXES on the case mouth – all things being equal – you get the same cut/chamfer on the flash hole inside the case. Most domestic brass has flash holes that is punched, the high end brass usually has drilled / reamed flash holes and you will see very little in the way of brass burrs – the punched holes sometimes look like Mt Vesuvius…
We have now reached a milestone – no more removal and reshaping…sort of. This is where I run all of these beautiful little soldiers through the neck die. I size the necks with a bushing neck die. The full case body is supported and the neck is reduced in diameter based upon the size of the bushing that has been selected. General rule of thumb; select a bushing size .002 - .004” under the loaded diameter at the neck.
i.e. .308 Win
.308 dia. bullet + .0145” neck wall thickness (x2) = .308 + .029 = .337” That is the neck diameter with a bullet seated. Reducing the bushing; .337 - .003 = .334” bushing should be just sweet. Playing with neck bushings can tune the tension and this tune the load. .002 is generally considered minimum and .004 is on the upper range. I have loaded some ammo that had .005 neck tension – it was what it needed to shoot well. Most everything I load runs .003”.
Some folks including myself will on occasion check concentricity of the neck in relation to the body BEFORE neck sizing – it is a QC operation and can be compared after neck sizing to see if there is any misalignment in the process.
So – we have straight, round, concentric, consistent cases in every conceivable way – what else can we do? What else needs to be checked?
Weight.
There are quite a large percentage of the shooting community that will throw the BS flag. They will stomp their feet and wail and refuse to eat dinner. So be it.
Weight is important. It is VERY important. After all, what are we after? Consistency.
But, but but they sputter – we have completely uniformed all the brass – it is nearly identical in every measurement.
True.
But what did you do to the inside of the case? (other than chamfer the flash hole)
N-O-T-H-I-N-G
So, riddle me this – assuming we have the same manufacturer and same lot #, how does one account for a 4 grain difference in case weight? The outside is the same. So the inside must be the same… not a chance. Case wall thickness varies all over the place, head thickness, web thickness etc. So, if the outside is the same – but the weight is different and we can account for the weight by way of wall thickness – the conclusion is the interior volume of the case is different.
This volume variance will directly impact the pressure and resultant velocity of the bullet. Remember, a 20fps dip in velocity will lose you points at 1000yds. What if it’s a 40fps change at 100 or 200. Well that.375” screamer group just opened up with that “flier” to .850. Ho hum.
As a direct result of loading / sorting – my 600 brass is new unfired LC 556. Depending on lot and year, it runs from a light of about 91grs to heavy of 98grs. That’s a 7 grain ES and considering the powder charges are in the 24 gr range, I’d say that’s a significant factor in eliminating any off call shots.
Jumping forward a bit as I have not addressed powder, primer seating and bullet seating, I will say this. After I load all my ammo, I go back and weigh every complete / loaded cartridge to double check against any anomaly. For a 1000yd match, the cartridges will be placed in my ammo box in order of weight. Bear in mind that the extreme spread may only be .8, but I know that each one is linear in performance – not having a high, then a low which during a match may result in an assumption that something else happened and a sight knob gets turned only to have the next shot fall out the bottom or go out the top.
I will post some more data on bullet sorting as well as other items that were brought up.
Questions?
Some of the various item that folks hacve discussed are very interesting.
SW: on the topic of bumping shoulders and full length sizing - very important stuff - especially with regards to gas guns and and bolt guns. One aspect that I didn't write about above was that the use of a body die and a neck die, effectively gives you full length resizing. The beauty of it , while more labor intensive is that it separates out the the different operations so that you can gain more control over each.
Gas guns will require full length resizing - not option there. It is HIGHLY unusual to not have to FL resize for an auto-loader.
Bolt guns on the other hand can be run with only neck sizing after yoe initial case prep. Depending on the load / pressure and chamber dimensions, you may be able to get 8 or 9 loadings before you'll need to bump the shoulder to set the headspace back just a few (.002ish) thousands to allow unhindered bolt closings.
Six Eight - I will post some stuff on ladder development as well as Incremental Load Development. I have some interactive spreadsheet that I can make availabale to aid in using these methods.
There was another post on head space and competition shell holders - these can be very useful, but before you start investing, rule out other issues - press deflection is real and it happens more than we realize.
Loaded Round Concentricity - facinating subject. I personally "spin" all my loaded LR ammo (600-1000yds) Using good brass, sound techniques and properly adjusted equipment will significantly reduce any concentricity issues. All my 1000yd ammo has less than .001" TIR at the contact point on the ogive.
I will fess up as well - I do on occasion, straighten my ammo. I use a fixture that is similar in theory to the Hornady unit. I got mine from a bench rest guy down in Tex - it is a phenomenal piece of kit. I'll post a pic later.
The post about concentricity issue whe the bullet shows runout that is parallel to the axis is dead on - this is usually cause by off center necks or neck wall thickness that is significantly uneven. Reaming the neck will cure it, but - more work and I'd just as soon spend effort with brass that is good to begin with.
Last - progressive presses. I loaded on a Dillon years back and then relegated it to pistol only. I am not opposed to progressives and they will crank out super ammo. It is important to not, that you're not seeing bench rest guys use progressives. Score shooters yes, where their accuracy requirement is driven by the size of the scoring rings. The Palma ammo is a perfect example of this. Those were probably 1/2 min guns all day long. Not BR level stuff but astounding accuracy at LR.
These days, I load my precision rifle ammo on Redding turret presses - they are big, very strong and stiff. They also have the quick change ablity that I love - I chave multiple turrets set up in specific calibers. I don't reinstall dies or have to readjust - just swap out the turret and I'm off the races.
Great discussion - keep it going!
QuietShootr
12-16-13, 14:18
Some of the various item that folks hacve discussed are very interesting.
SW: on the topic of bumping shoulders and full length sizing - very important stuff - especially with regards to gas guns and and bolt guns. One aspect that I didn't write about above was that the use of a body die and a neck die, effectively gives you full length resizing. The beauty of it , while more labor intensive is that it separates out the the different operations so that you can gain more control over each.
Gas guns will require full length resizing - not option there. It is HIGHLY unusual to not have to FL resize for an auto-loader.
Bolt guns on the other hand can be run with only neck sizing after yoe initial case prep. Depending on the load / pressure and chamber dimensions, you may be able to get 8 or 9 loadings before you'll need to bump the shoulder to set the headspace back just a few (.002ish) thousands to allow unhindered bolt closings.
Six Eight - I will post some stuff on ladder development as well as Incremental Load Development. I have some interactive spreadsheet that I can make availabale to aid in using these methods.
There was another post on head space and competition shell holders - these can be very useful, but before you start investing, rule out other issues - press deflection is real and it happens more than we realize.
Loaded Round Concentricity - facinating subject. I personally "spin" all my loaded LR ammo (600-1000yds) Using good brass, sound techniques and properly adjusted equipment will significantly reduce any concentricity issues. All my 1000yd ammo has less than .001" TIR at the contact point on the ogive.
I will fess up as well - I do on occasion, straighten my ammo. I use a fixture that is similar in theory to the Hornady unit. I got mine from a bench rest guy down in Tex - it is a phenomenal piece of kit. I'll post a pic later.
The post about concentricity issue whe the bullet shows runout that is parallel to the axis is dead on - this is usually cause by off center necks or neck wall thickness that is significantly uneven. Reaming the neck will cure it, but - more work and I'd just as soon spend effort with brass that is good to begin with.
Last - progressive presses. I loaded on a Dillon years back and then relegated it to pistol only. I am not opposed to progressives and they will crank out super ammo. It is important to not, that you're not seeing bench rest guys use progressives. Score shooters yes, where their accuracy requirement is driven by the size of the scoring rings. The Palma ammo is a perfect example of this. Those were probably 1/2 min guns all day long. Not BR level stuff but astounding accuracy at LR.
These days, I load my precision rifle ammo on Redding turret presses - they are big, very strong and stiff. They also have the quick change ablity that I love - I chave multiple turrets set up in specific calibers. I don't reinstall dies or have to readjust - just swap out the turret and I'm off the races.
Great discussion - keep it going!
I'se so confused. Here I was all ready to dump my Redding T7 and just use my 550.
.5 moa is bottom of the pack at a short range Benchrest match. But that is still impressive accuracy for ammo loaded on a Dillon press.
Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2
I'll buy your T-7 if you want to get rid of it! LOL.
I use a T-7 and 2 T-6's with probably 6 turrets between them.
A note regarding press deflection - I have set up a small surface plate with a dial indicator on it and indicated off the top of the turret on both the T6 & T7 presses.
The T7 is actually stiffer than the 6. Relatively speaking - they are both built like the proverbial brick shithouse. In comparison, I've tested a bunch of single stage presses. Some are good, some not so much. On a good press, the deflection of the die area is usually no more than .001-.002 and that is only in the sizing process. Bullet seating, neck sizing - not even worth talking about. The bad ones - .020 easy. That's frightening.
I'll admit as well, that I basically blueprinted my presses - the biggest issue is the sleeve in the turret. It is tooo long and allows the turret to act as an arm to leverage it on the bolt. I cut all the sleeves down on a lathe to give me about .001 clearance - no more rocking.
I'll also admit that I have had a real stinker from Redding too - it was T6 that was so far out of alignment that I didn't even need to measure it - it was that visible - it was promptly returned. Redding to their credit replaced it - no questions asked.
My last confession of the day is that I prefer the semi-single station aspect of the turrets. I don't shoot the volume of ammo that would warrant a Dillon 1050 or some other behemoth, although I would gladly take one if offered. (jealousy) LOL.
I have too much invested at this point and as I get older - I am more content to chase those sub 1/4 moa groups - maybe one day I cash the whole mess in and go full house BR. Although that might take some 'splainin to Household 6...
QuietShootr
12-17-13, 08:52
I'll buy your T-7 if you want to get rid of it! LOL.
I use a T-7 and 2 T-6's with probably 6 turrets between them.
A note regarding press deflection - I have set up a small surface plate with a dial indicator on it and indicated off the top of the turret on both the T6 & T7 presses.
The T7 is actually stiffer than the 6. Relatively speaking - they are both built like the proverbial brick shithouse. In comparison, I've tested a bunch of single stage presses. Some are good, some not so much. On a good press, the deflection of the die area is usually no more than .001-.002 and that is only in the sizing process. Bullet seating, neck sizing - not even worth talking about. The bad ones - .020 easy. That's frightening.
I'll admit as well, that I basically blueprinted my presses - the biggest issue is the sleeve in the turret. It is tooo long and allows the turret to act as an arm to leverage it on the bolt. I cut all the sleeves down on a lathe to give me about .001 clearance - no more rocking.
I'll also admit that I have had a real stinker from Redding too - it was T6 that was so far out of alignment that I didn't even need to measure it - it was that visible - it was promptly returned. Redding to their credit replaced it - no questions asked.
My last confession of the day is that I prefer the semi-single station aspect of the turrets. I don't shoot the volume of ammo that would warrant a Dillon 1050 or some other behemoth, although I would gladly take one if offered. (jealousy) LOL.
I have too much invested at this point and as I get older - I am more content to chase those sub 1/4 moa groups - maybe one day I cash the whole mess in and go full house BR. Although that might take some 'splainin to Household 6...
Can you post a pic of the 7 with the dial indicator mounted? I'm wondering if my sleeve doesn't need to be cut down a hair.
Quietshootr,
Here is pic of my reloading set up - I'll put the surface plate and dial indicator setup back over there tonight and take a pic.
22136
I set up the indicator to read right at the die station over the ram. Very easy to see any deflection for any type of press.
This is the tool I was referring to. A concentricity gauge to actually fix any runout.
Is it worth the money and time? I have no idea.
http://www.hornady.com/store/Ammunition-Concentricity-Tool/
Six Eight & SW,
Here is the tool that I use to correct concentricity issues - and I should be more precise. I don't consider run-out in the .002-003 range as an issue - more like the ability ot fine tune ammo and take out any doubt - or cull if required.
Like I mentioned earlier in the thread I picked this up from a benchrest guy when I was shooting down in TX a number of years ago. I don't think he ever marketed them commercially. IIRC he only made one batch - like 12 or so. I've never seen another one.
I will say that it works - period.
I can get .0002 TIR (two ten thousandths) with relative ease - if this little gizmo was any part make-believe, the results would show on target.
The tool has been very useful in sorting factory ammo - looking for that slight edge at 300yds - it is stunning to see some of the run-out of OEM match ammo. The black lever can be positioned to align with the neck and rotated down to tweak the high spot as indicated by the dial indicator - which is a Fowler in .0005" graduations.
It works - plain and simple.
22137
This thread has turned into much more than I thought it would.
Sticky?
Another fine tool is the Vern Juenke bullet checker. The USAMU uses one of these to screen their long-range bullets. As Vern didn't make a whole lot of them, they're very tough to find (or to find someone willing to part with his).
X-ray Your Bullets?
One of the best kept secrets is how those guys manage to shoot 6 inch groups at 1,000. A product invented by Vern Juenke doesn't actually x-ray your bullets but it seems to.
The Internal Concentricity Comparator (I.C.C.) uses sonic pulses to look "inside" bullets for concentricity problems caused by voids and jacket irregularities.
One past International Heavy Rifle Champion says it is the secret to shooting 6 inch groups at 1000 yards. If you do everything else correctly, and still get an occasional flyer, it may be your bullets. Weighing bullets can not tell you if an entire box was made from jackets with walls that are thin on one side but if the lead core is not centered they can fly as bad as the worst out-of-round projectile.
Top competitors with one of Vern's machine often use only 40% of the best hand-swaged bullets for serious work. You may find only 10% of the less expensive or production bullets you have been using measure to "Golden BeeBee" standards, with as many as 1/4 or more actually "junk".
Vern had threatened to retire several times and apparently has finally retired so these meters are no longer available. We have seen them on Ebay as well as other long range forums for a fraction of their final $1200 selling price.
http://www.shootingsoftware.com/images/Juenke.jpg
Another fine tool is the Vern Juenke bullet checker. The USAMU uses one of these to screen their long-range bullets. As Vern didn't make a whole lot of them, they're very tough to find (or to find someone willing to part with his).
I've actually been looking for one of these for years. There is a guy in VA (I think) that is making exact copies of them again - no pricing, and they make one a month - very labor intensive as the coil needs to be wound by hand. They are supposedly selling them through another shop - Clay Spencer, but he doesn't list them on his site. I've had inquires out on these for a while - if / when I get a response, I'll be sure to be in the sitting position and properly lubricated before I look at the price...
If I could ever find a schematic / plans, I'd attempt to build one myself. (hint hint)
Can you post a pic of the 7 with the dial indicator mounted? I'm wondering if my sleeve doesn't need to be cut down a hair.
QS - rudimentary set up (recreated real quick) - With the dial indicator set up on the body die, and a fired .308 case run up in the die, I measured .001 deflection.
If you are getting more than that or you can acually "feel" the turret rock - my suggestion is to face back the sleeve to take up the slack. The boss on the back of the press prevents any tipping of the turret, so most movement is by way of any looseness imparted by a long sleeve.
2215922158
I screwed up something w/ the pics - lost one and duplicated another.
SeriousStudent
12-17-13, 20:17
This thread has turned into much more than I thought it would.
Sticky?
Done.
Questions: For you guys who have already posted a ton of great information.....
How does a precision re-loader properly read a group? What are you looking for and how do you know when you've found it?
How do you "really" know it wasn't just yourself affecting the group?
How many shots per group for an accurate read?
What is your setup when evaluating a loads groups? (Bench? Vise? offhand? Sitting? Prone?)
Going back through the thread I'll add a couple more tidbits.
An older (now defunct) Precision Shooting magazine article showed the biggest improvement for the least (one-time) effort is de-burring the internal flash hole.
I don't neck turn for an auto, and don't have the patience to do bolt gun ammo (except maybe the odd bunch reserved specifically for hunting -- and then I only clean up about 50% of the neck). A K&M precision hand-turning tool is very slow and can give you hand cramps.
Annealing will extend the life of case necks and helps with consistent neck tension.
You need to check cases for incipient case separation to avoid having to become familiar with broken case extractors.
Don't sacrifice precision for velocity (and pressure).
Questions: For you guys who have already posted a ton of great information.....
How does a precision re-loader properly read a group? What are you looking for and how do you know when you've found it?
How do you "really" know it wasn't just yourself affecting the group?
How many shots per group for an accurate read?
What is your setup when evaluating a loads groups? (Bench? Vise? offhand? Sitting? Prone?)
It really depends on whether you're shooting long or short range. Most fellas will load up 3-5 rounds with varying charge weights, shoot them, and pick the one that groups best.
Here's an explanation of how to conduct a proper ladder test for long range...
http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-reloading/44763-hand-loading-long-range-4-powderin.html
Mods: I apologize if posting links to other forums is forbidden. This is just the best explanation I could think of.
Why's that? If a progressive produces concentric ammo, why wouldn't someone use one? I'm not talking about cranking them out. I'm talking about using a progressive, in single stage mode, to load precision ammo.
That is not using a progressive,. That is like having a Pinto in your drive way and saying you drive a Corvette.
Greg
Questions: For you guys who have already posted a ton of great information.....
How does a precision re-loader properly read a group? What are you looking for and how do you know when you've found it?
How do you "really" know it wasn't just yourself affecting the group?
How many shots per group for an accurate read?
What is your setup when evaluating a loads groups? (Bench? Vise? offhand? Sitting? Prone?)
Size obviusly to start. Shape says a lot also. Vertical implies it may need a bit more velocity and horizintal often indicares bullet searing depth could be improved.
Shooting more than opne group is a test that must be done. One group doesd not a load make. I shoot two intially and if it looks good I go back with three more later. Consistency in size and shape tell the tale. I shoot 5 shot groups.
Load development is done from the bench witha front rest and rear bag., I just upgraded both so I am jazzed to see what a "good" set up will be. I will be using it on 1000 yard F-Class so I dropped the $$'s on this one.
After the load is picked you have to shoot it in the format you will use later. Off hand, setting, bipod etc. A bipod will change things as as will how you handle the rifle. Groups on the bench are shot free recoil if they are little guys but you can't do that off hand. You can get CLOSE with a bipod but not the same. Some very good shooters can shoot their load work ups with a sling. I am not that great. That can really effect the bench to real world quickly.
I shoot across a chronograph during load work ups. Many guys do not. Not so important for 100 yard stauff but once you step out and go long the cocnsistency of the round really comes into play. A super 100 yarder may be a horrible 300 yard and beyond load. Bullet stability and BC come into play as those short stubbies may do well up close but you do them at 500 and the wind and distance will suck the life out of them quickly.
Greg
It really depends on whether you're shooting long or short range. Most fellas will load up 3-5 rounds with varying charge weights, shoot them, and pick the one that groups best.
Here's an explanation of how to conduct a proper ladder test for long range...
http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-reloading/44763-hand-loading-long-range-4-powderin.html
Mods: I apologize if posting links to other forums is forbidden. This is just the best explanation I could think of.
That's a fairly decent article - I would add though that there are other aspects to consider & document.
The first big determining factor is this a "bench gun"? i.e. is it a rifle that will be shot primarily off the bench at a 100 or 200yds?
or
Is it a long range rifle (500-1000yds)?
If it is a bench baby, then I shoot single shot ladder style. I use a target that has a small diamond that is repeated 20 times on the same sheet of paper. Each shot w/ different charge is shot on a separate target. After all the loads are shot, I measure the center of the hole to the center of the aiming poing and plug that into a spreadsheet.
Also every shot is over a chronograph and the corresponding velocity is recorded. The spreadsheet is set up so that as I plug in the distances from the aim point, (negative number if the shot is low and a positive number if the shot is high) the data feeds an automatic graphing capability. I end up with a graphic representation of the shots - this gets printed and goes in my log book.
Below is an example of this spreadsheet.
22165
As you can see in the plot - the loads flat line at loads #4 - #8. This is 39.3gr - 40.5.
On the actual target - I can see the vertical dispersion on these shots is nearly identical - I'd have a cluster. Since I shot one shot on each target, I have separation and can account for each shot/load.
This flat line represents a accuracy node. I have the velocity that I am after. My fine tuning begins with picking the load in the middle of this load; 39.9gr.
From here, I'll shoot a 5 shot group at that charge and 2 more, one at +.2 (40.1gr) and -.2 (39.7).
What I end up with is 3 - 5shot groups of +/- .2 grs.
Group eval begins now - looking for nice round clustered groups.
The same test is run with the plots for thes 5 shot groups.
22166
After this - is when I start playing with seating depth. Everything has been loaded on the lands.
I'll skip ahead a bit - this rifle ended up with a final load of 39.8gr IMR4895, w/ the bullets seated .005 into the lands. It shoot 1/2 min all day long and is resistant to temp fluctuations. I don't get flyers or stringing.
Now - If I am going after a LR load - I'll shoot 3 shot groups at each charge weight at 300yds minimum.
Also - all over a chrono.
Once I settle on charge weight, seating depth, neck tension etc, I'll proof the load by shooting a 20 shot string (4 - 5shot groups) - again over the chrono so I can get meaningful velocity ES & SD #'s. I'm looking for ES's under 20 and SD's in the single digits. After this - I'll train with the selected load and shoot a fair amont of it to really get a feel for it before I every go prone in front of an official scorer. Its hard - takes some serious attention to detail - but the results are just awesome.
All testing is done w/ glass, typically a minimum of 20x w/ fine cross hair and shot off of rock solid rests. DON't load develop off a bipod - they pogo and will influence vertical stringing. There are so many other aspects to this, I could write a book.
One VERY VERY important component to all this testing is a process that comes from the shooter. You MUST be honest and CALL every shot. EVERY shot. You need to develop the ability to take a mental snapshot of the sight picture when the shot breaks - was your cross hair a CH low? or did you fiddle**** the trigger and jerk one high right. Be honest and do it on every shot - it will weed out bad data.
Going back through the thread I'll add a couple more tidbits.
An older (now defunct) Precision Shooting magazine article showed the biggest improvement for the least (one-time) effort is de-burring the internal flash hole.
I don't neck turn for an auto, and don't have the patience to do bolt gun ammo (except maybe the odd bunch reserved specifically for hunting -- and then I only clean up about 50% of the neck). A K&M precision hand-turning tool is very slow and can give you hand cramps.
Annealing will extend the life of case necks and helps with consistent neck tension.
You need to check cases for incipient case separation to avoid having to become familiar with broken case extractors.
Don't sacrifice precision for velocity (and pressure).
I'll second a lot of what Sinister wrote here and add a few tidbits.
I use the K&M tool - but only under power. I can not fathom the thought of actually turning that thing by hand.
Annealing can be useful in gaining consistent neck tension - which aids in tuning particular loads, but annealing is really on the far upper end of precision reloading. If you use body dies and bushing neck dies - it will take a lot of reloading cycles to overwork your brass.
Case head separation is a real danger - and the cause almost always lies in either over sizing - meaning pushing the shoulder back too far (creating excess Head Space) or running brass repeatedly through gas guns i.e. M-14's - they are brutal on brass. As a side note - go shoot an M-14 / M1A at night and watch the bolt / chamber area...you'll see flame....no BS. The chamber is still under pressure when the bolt starts the extraction cycle - it's an eye opener.
QuietShootr
12-18-13, 12:52
Six Eight & SW,
Here is the tool that I use to correct concentricity issues - and I should be more precise. I don't consider run-out in the .002-003 range as an issue - more like the ability ot fine tune ammo and take out any doubt - or cull if required.
Like I mentioned earlier in the thread I picked this up from a benchrest guy when I was shooting down in TX a number of years ago. I don't think he ever marketed them commercially. IIRC he only made one batch - like 12 or so. I've never seen another one.
I will say that it works - period.
I can get .0002 TIR (two ten thousandths) with relative ease - if this little gizmo was any part make-believe, the results would show on target.
The tool has been very useful in sorting factory ammo - looking for that slight edge at 300yds - it is stunning to see some of the run-out of OEM match ammo. The black lever can be positioned to align with the neck and rotated down to tweak the high spot as indicated by the dial indicator - which is a Fowler in .0005" graduations.
It works - plain and simple.
22137
I have a NECO that looks a lot like that, as well as the Forster which is what I normally use. The Forster is a little easier to use. I'm interested in your dial setup because I want to know if my T7 is doing the same thing. I'll take a pic or two...
ETA: Whoa! my NECO doesn't have that correction lever. That's really cool.
http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad346/QS762/RLPs/9DABDA4E-310D-40F0-805E-A5789F10402C.jpg
QuietShootr
12-18-13, 12:52
Another fine tool is the Vern Juenke bullet checker. The USAMU uses one of these to screen their long-range bullets. As Vern didn't make a whole lot of them, they're very tough to find (or to find someone willing to part with his).
http://www.shootingsoftware.com/images/Juenke.jpg
I am waiting for someone I know to croak so I can have his. He left it to me...no shit :-D
I have a NECO that looks a lot like that, as well as the Forster which is what I normally use. The Forster is a little easier to use. I'm interested in your dial setup because I want to know if my T7 is doing the same thing. I'll take a pic or two...
ETA: Whoa! my NECO doesn't have that correction lever. That's really cool.
The NECO stuff is really really nice - my mentor in precision reloading, long sice passed, swore by his NECO equipment.
I still have all my NECO - moly ingredients when I was hooked on that BS...(for sale...anyone anyone?)
I am waiting for someone I know to croak so I can have his. He left it to me...no shit :-D
Ohhhh, sooooo unfair! You are a very very lucky man. <as I type seething with jealosy...LOL :cray:>
QuietShootr
12-18-13, 13:22
Ohhhh, sooooo unfair! You are a very very lucky man. <as I type seething with jealosy...LOL :cray:>
Unfortunately :D my pal is very healthy for his age...
QuietShootr
12-18-13, 13:31
We ought to have a swap meet sale for all the stuff we don't need any more just from this thread...lol. I have an almost new dual-tumbler Harbor Freight wet tumbler I bought to try out stainless tumbling. That lasted about two months before I had to have the Thumler.
I agree, and it reinforces a hard lesson. I try to impart this everytime a friend / fellow shooter / coworker wants to get into reloading - "Buy the best you can afford up front, because you'll invariably want better stuff and all the cheap stuff is justed wasted $ and effort" I have boxes of equipment <ahem> mistakes...
great thread. some new tools here i've never seen.
I agree, and it reinforces a hard lesson. I try to impart this everytime a friend / fellow shooter / coworker wants to get into reloading - "Buy the best you can afford up front, because you'll invariably want better stuff and all the cheap stuff is justed wasted $ and effort" I have boxes of equipment <ahem> mistakes...
I have a feeling the stuff you and some others have boxed up would still be upgrades for me!
Steel head
12-19-13, 10:05
great thread. some new tools here i've never seen.
I'm also liking this thread.
I just started loading 223/5.56 in the last few months and the info on this thread is great.
Another fine tool is the Vern Juenke bullet checker. The USAMU uses one of these to screen their long-range bullets. As Vern didn't make a whole lot of them, they're very tough to find (or to find someone willing to part with his).
http://www.shootingsoftware.com/images/Juenke.jpg
Well, I got info back on the next generation of the Juenke machines....wow, just simply, wow....
and like I thought - I needed to be on all fours and properly lubed when I looked at the price...
The company that is producing exact copies of the original, has them listed at $3900 each. (+ tax/SH for a total of about $4142) This includes 1 hr of tech support on the phone.
Any additional"tech support" on the phone is $240 / hr.
They are backed up at least 6 weeks right now.
They do offer kits as well - they will only be sold via Ebay and will list for $1850 and does not include any tech support.
They also intend to raise the price to $2090 for a kit and $4680 for a completed machine.
So - It appears that I will stay with sorting bullets by way of my caveman techniques.
QuietShootr
12-22-13, 20:08
Well, I got something out of this thread. I have been chasing that last .002 of runout the last year or so, and after your comments about your T-7's turret wobbling, I sat down tonight, made sure the bolt was as tight as it would go, and sonofabitch if I can't wobble that turret a couple of thousandths just by pushing up on the forward edge of it. The sleeve doesn't LOOK like it's too long, but clearly it is. Grrrrrrr.
I'm going to take it to a machine shop tomorrow and have it shortened.
I weigh all my bullets, just because Sierra says they weigh 168g doesn't make it so. I also mark the case with a sharpie so the it goes back into the chamber the same way every time. I used to shoot a Rem 40xbbr in .308. Gave up bench rest because it made me crazy. Took up Trap Shooting.
I weigh all my bullets, just because Sierra says they weigh 168g doesn't make it so. I also mark the case with a sharpie so the it goes back into the chamber the same way every time. I used to shoot a Rem 40xbbr in .308. Gave up bench rest because it made me crazy. Took up Trap Shooting. That's hilarious. I was looking for an alternative to bench rest myself. I go crazy trying to corral in all the variables. Think I may take up trap myself.
I weigh all my bullets, just because Sierra says they weigh 168g doesn't make it so. I also mark the case with a sharpie so the it goes back into the chamber the same way every time. I used to shoot a Rem 40xbbr in .308. Gave up bench rest because it made me crazy. Took up Trap Shooting.
I would humbly suggest that anyone / everyone should refrain from weighing bullets. The payoff vs the time/frustration investment isn't worth it.
If you want to sort bullets - do so by sorting lengths from base to the ogive contact point. After that - sort by bearing surface length. All require minor tool investments, but nothing expensive. Beyond that - the next process worth considering is either meplat trimming/uniforming or bullet pointing dies - both are different variations on uniforming the meplat (point) of the bullet.
And - obviously - using better bullets will help tremendously; i.e. Bergers, Clinch River, Fowler, Barts, Lapua, Swampworks etc - most made with J4 jackets which are incredibly uniform. The big mfrs. Sierra, Hornady etc are "usually" fair to good. The biggest issue with these mass produced "match" bullets is that they suffer from jacket concentricity issues - which aside from some VERY expensive testing equipment are a fact of life - you get what you get.
Personally - I have found Sierra's for example to vary wildly in base to ogive lengths. I have seen a single box have a varience of .001 - .003" wich in the grand scheme of things, is awesome. Then again, I have measured other boxes and found 3 or 4 completely different and wide disparity of "groups" of measurements - probably the result of bullets from different dies being batched together into a single box.
It helps to check..
That's hilarious. I was looking for an alternative to bench rest myself. I go crazy trying to corral in all the variables. Think I may take up trap myself.
Yep, a person could drive themselves nuts trying to control all the variables while 90% of it can be attained by prioritizing. From my precision rifle I get .5-.75 MOA without BR primers, without turning necks, without weighing brass, and without weighing or measuring bullets. The time needed to get that nitpicky isn't worth it in my book....O.L.
As someone suggested earlier, I ordered a Forster BR seating die and it seems really helps seating the bullet straight since it holds the brass and bullet on the same plane. I was using a RCBS seating die w/ 77gr SMK and was getting crooked bullets, which is fine for cheaper plinking ammo, but really hurts for precision.
As someone suggested earlier, I ordered a Forster BR seating die and it seems really helps seating the bullet straight since it holds the brass and bullet on the same plane. I was using a RCBS seating die w/ 77gr SMK and was getting crooked bullets, which is fine for cheaper plinking ammo, but really hurts for precision.
I am not a fan of the RCBS dies - especially their "competition" dies - I junked those years ago - I think you made a wise choice and a significant upgrade in the Forster.
I am not a fan of the RCBS dies - especially their "competition" dies - I junked those years ago - I think you made a wise choice and a significant upgrade in the Forster.
Can you give me some details? I was thinking about ordering the RCBS competition seater to replace my Lee. Might have to go with the Forster.
Steel head
12-24-13, 18:37
As someone suggested earlier, I ordered a Forster BR seating die and it seems really helps seating the bullet straight since it holds the brass and bullet on the same plane. I was using a RCBS seating die w/ 77gr SMK and was getting crooked bullets, which is fine for cheaper plinking ammo, but really hurts for precision.
The Forster or Redding seating die is next on my list.
I'm using a RCBS now.
I am not a fan of the RCBS dies - especially their "competition" dies - I junked those years ago - I think you made a wise choice and a significant upgrade in the Forster.
I never saw a problem with them until I started loading the for precision. In fact, I'm still using standard RCBS small base dies (all that was available back then) for my 300BLK and they seat the bullet very straight compared to the 77gr 223 for my precision AR.
Can you give me some details? I was thinking about ordering the RCBS competition seater to replace my Lee. Might have to go with the Forster.
The RCBS "Competition" die has an open window that reduces the complete support for the case and the seating stem, additionally, the stems are wobbly and the interior machining sucked on the ones I used - I tried to polish it out, never got it squared away. When I switched to the Redding dies - night and day difference. Redding's are fully supported - the sleeve for the bullet is machined exceptionally well and keeps the bullet in superb alignment when entering the neck.
My advice - go with the Redding micrometer BR seater or the Forster - you'll never look back.
Can you give me some details? I was thinking about ordering the RCBS competition seater to replace my Lee. Might have to go with the Forster.
Both the Forster and Redding dies line up the case with a spring loaded centering stem before the brass enters the die. After using the Forster seating die I just got, I doubt I will use anything else for precision reloading.
Check this link for a Forster & Redding side by side comparison and explanation of the seating stem:
http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/cartridges-calibers/33083-bullet-seating-dies-redding-vs-forster.html
From what I've seen, the best place to start with any attempt to reload for accuracy is to find the components your gun likes in the amount it likes and then be exacting in your case prep, powder measuring and bullet seating.
If you do that, you'll be way ahead of any factory produced match grade ammo.
In order to find what your gun likes, you're going to have to get a chronograph, spend quite a bit on components for testing and spend a lot of time at the range being very meticulous in your record keeping. You should only be changing one thing at a time, so be ready to shoot a LOT of bullets and recording exactly what you changed.
For example, My brother-in-law has a .308 that I'm working up a load for. I have both 150 gr and 165 gr bullets and have loaded ten of each with the same primers, to the same OAL and the same powder, but with several different powder loads appropriate for each bullet weight working up in 0.5gr increments.
Now I get to go to the range and shoot them and record the results. I will be noting the temperature, wind, muzzle velocity, and accuracy of each at 100 yards. I will then put that data into a spreadsheet and compute maximum velocity spread, standard deviation and energy. I will also have the powder, primer, who made the case and the bullet and the bullet weight.
Once I have that, I can start tinkering with the other variables such as primers and powders.
After a while I will have found the most accurate load for each of those two bullets in that rifle. Then I can use the data I already have to change to a different bullet maker and make educated guesses about what to try for that bullet.
After what is likely to be several hundred test shots and hours of reloading and note taking over what is likely to be several months, I should have a load that will consistently shoot very accurately.
Then I can decide if I want to bother with fine tuning it with all the other things out there such as neck turning.
Reloading for superior accuracy in your rifle is not a quick task and cannot be rushed and you will never actually be done with it since there will always be some new bullet or powder to try or some new gadget that is supposed to make your ammo more accurate.
So have fun!
From what I've seen, the best place to start with any attempt to reload for accuracy is to find the components your gun likes in the amount it likes and then be exacting in your case prep, powder measuring and bullet seating.
If you do that, you'll be way ahead of any factory produced match grade ammo.
In order to find what your gun likes, you're going to have to get a chronometer, spend quite a bit on components for testing and spend a lot of time at the range being very meticulous in your record keeping. You should only be changing one thing at a time, so be ready to shoot a LOT of bullets and recording exactly what you changed.
For example, My brother-in-law has a .308 that I'm working up a load for. I have both 150 gr and 165 gr bullets and have loaded ten of each with the same primers, to the same OAL and the same powder, but with several different powder loads appropriate for each bullet weight working up in .5gr increments.
Now I get to go to the range and shoot them and record the results. I will be noting the temperature, wind, muzzle velocity, and accuracy of each at 100 yards. I will then pet that data into a spreadsheet and compute maximum velocity spread, standard deviation and energy. I will also have the powder, primer, who made the case and the bullet and the bullet weight.
Once I have that, I can start tinkering with the other variables such as primers and powders.
After a while I will have found the most accurate load for each of those two bullets in that rifle. Then I can use the data I already have to change to a different bullet maker and make educated guesses about what to try for that bullet.
After what is likely to be several hundred test shots and hours of reloading and note taking over what is likely to be several months, I should have a load that will consistently shoot very accurately.
Then I can decide if I want to bother with fine tuning it with all the other things out there such as neck turning.
Reloading for superior accuracy in your rifle is not a quick task and cannot be rushed and you will never actually be done with it since there will always be some new bullet or powder to try or some new gadget that is supposed to make your ammo more accurate.
So have fun!
I will say this with a respectful tone. Please don't post things like this until you have read through the reams of information that is provided by very very knowledgeable and experienced reloaders - there are so many things wrong with this post that I don't even know where to start.
Seriously - do the community a favor and delete this post. Every single statement you made is wrong or dangerous.
v/r
I will say this with a respectful tone. Please don't post things like this until you have read through the reams of information that is provided by very very knowledgeable and experienced reloaders - there are so many things wrong with this post that I don't even know where to start.
Seriously - do the community a favor and delete this post. Every single statement you made is wrong or dangerous.
v/r
I am a reloader and nothing I have posted is incorrect or dangerous.
In fact, it is the process recommended to me by reloaders with decades of experience and has resulted in ammunition for my 30-06 that produced a 0.6" group at 200 yards.
In order for me to have given "dangerous" information I would have to have given recommendations on a specific load that exceeds known pressure specifications.
I will say this with a respectful tone. Please don't post things like this until you have read through the reams of information that is provided by very very knowledgeable and experienced reloaders - there are so many things wrong with this post that I don't even know where to start.
Seriously - do the community a favor and delete this post. Every single statement you made is wrong or dangerous.
v/r
Please show us where "every single statement" he made was wrong or dangerous. Just curious.
Other than reloading becomes addictive and you are always looking for that next edge or trick to make the perfect round, it almost becomes a sickness (mental illness) in search of perfection. How far can I take it and what is the return on the investment? Great thread.
kwg
Other than reloading becomes addictive and you are always looking for that next edge or trick to make the perfect round, it almost becomes a sickness (mental illness) in search of perfection. How far can I take it and what is the return on the investment? Great thread.
kwg
There really isn't a "return on investment" per say.
You can reload cheaper than buying factory ammo, and it can be more accurate, but I've found most people and up shooting more and buying new reloading tools, so there really isn't a savings.
This is an extract from Shooting USA's interview with Mid Tompkins reference precision hand loading:
Mid On Ammo
Mid does not use practice ammo. “If it isn’t the best ammo he owns, the shooter learns absolutely nothing because they don’t know—when they shoot an 8, if they shot it, the ammo shot it, or the gun shot it.” Mid is perhaps remarkably nonchalant about prepping his brass, but he bases his opinions on years of experimenting. Yes, he trims brass to length, but feels that a thousandth or two difference among cases isn’t all that critical for Long Range competition. Nor does he worry about uniforming primer pockets and flash holes. “It may make a difference in benchrest shooting, but it darn sure doesn’t make a difference in our shooting, especially from 600 yards.”
Mid chooses match bullets from Sierra and Berger but doesn’t use VLD-style bullets. He “soft-seats” them about finger-tight in the cases and lets the barrel seat them to depth.
https://assets.ssusa.org/media/1534359/tompkins_lead.jpg?preset=article
Full interview here: https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2016/2/23/shooter-spotlight-middleton-w-tompkins/
i tend to agree with that. For PRS style shooting, if i knew i was only going to be practicing speed barricades on 2-3 MOA targets, i might make some 'practice ammo' but the only difference in that and my 'match ammo' would be that i would just throw the charges instead of weighing them. brass prep would be the same. (anneal, resize, trim, but never uniforming primer pockets or flash holes)
but in reality, i never do that because i usually like to change up the speed in my practice and run barricade then take a shot at a 1/2 moa target or hostage flapper
(not that i have had any time to practice this year...)
Has anyone had any luck with Sierra 175 TMK on Lapua 308 + 4064?
Has anyone had any luck with Sierra 175 TMK on Lapua 308 + 4064?
This is once fired lapua brass, 175smk br2 with varget
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200909/c703e05e5cd2152b1653c700fc5f739f.jpg
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^^^ well that would appear to be more than acceptable! What length barrel?
^^^ well that would appear to be more than acceptable! What length barrel?
24”
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