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View Full Version : Vickers/Hackathorn Low Light Level I -- May 2008 AAR



John_Wayne777
05-11-08, 11:57
Day 1 --

Began the day doing carbine work, basic accuracy, turning, transitions to sidearm, fundamentals of the use of LIE, and transitions to sidearm using the white light of the carbine.

Moved to doing pistol work. Basic accuracy, the wobble drill, drawing, use of the white light in conjunction with the pistol, break for some dinner. After the dinner break we went over defensive room clearing. Several individuals in the class had never done any sort of room clearing exercise before. To paraphrase Mr. Vickers, anyone who tells you that room clearing is "easy" is a yutz. Room clearing is certainly not easy. Those who have done quite a bit of room clearing before did pretty well in the shoothouse, at least during the day. Daylight ran out on us before about half of the shooters had been through the shoothouse, forcing use of the white light for those folks.

As I said earlier, many people hadn't been through any room clearing training before. The key to *defensive* clearing is to take things slow and deliberately. There is a natural impulse to think you have to move really quickly and shoot really fast. That's not the case. As Mr. Hackathorn said a couple of times, you have the rest of your life to deal with the problem. A number of shooters moved too quickly through the house and some were too quick on the trigger resulting in unarmed targets getting plugged. It's critical to take that extra 1/4 of a second to properly identify whether or not what/whom you are about to drop the hammer on deserves to be shot. Accuracy from most shooters was decent...at least during the daylight runs through the house.

As Mr. Vickers said numerous times, stuff that you can do easily during the day takes on a whole new level of difficulty at night.

As was the case in the November class, we then ran through the drills performed during the day in the Ohio darkness. Things were actually fairly bright on the range for most of the night thanks to a very visible moon. In November as soon as the sun went down it was darker than #$%&! because of the intense cloud cover that meant no moon.

The carbine drills went fairly well, except many people failed to remember to move after their muzzle flash. Muzzle flash is, of course, a target indicator. It's best not to hang around in the same spot where your muzzle flash just showed up. Muzzle flash from most people's carbines was fairly minor. I, of course, had to be the exception. On three or four occasions with the carbine I ended up with a big white plume flashbulbing me and completely destroying my night vision for over half a second. This, of course, didn't help my accuracy any.

Once again shooters who didn't have a red dot on their carbine learned the advantages of them....and they learned that if they didn't have the funds to purchase one that they should either:

A. Rob a 7-11 to get the money to buy one **
B. Whore out the wife to get the money to buy one **

(** Note: This is a bit of humor used to drive home an important point. Nobody was actually advocating robbery or whoring out your wife. I swear that the first person who complains about those comments is going to get a wedgie of Biblical proportions)

The live fire carbine/pistol transitions using the carbine's white light were enlightening. To my puzzlement I was shooting my 9mm M&P more accurately with one hand in the dark than I was my carbine using a red dot and both hands. The most likely explanation for this phenomenon is that I suck.

Many in the class found that Mr. Vickers' warnings about accuracy earlier in the day were well founded. Groups opened up dramatically. Some of the targets looked like somebody was blasting at them with buckshot from 80 yards out. Mr. Hackathorn and Mr. Vickers both said "If you find that your groups in the dark are only twice as big as they are during daylight, you're VERY fortunate." When you are trying to remember proper light use techniques and proper movement and you are shooting at a target you can hardly see, your accuracy tends to suffer. The more clock cycles of brain power you have to dedicate to things other than pulling the trigger, the more your accuracy will suffer.

This is precisely the reason that HSLD types drill this stuff until they can do it if they are lobotomized. The reality of the situation is that if you are in the middle of a gunfight you are going to be busy as hell, and you need to have critical techniques like light use and proper trigger manipulation perfected to an almost subconscious level.

Also worthy of note is the importance of drilling GOOD PRACTICES to that level. An important point about "training scars" was brought up earlier in the day when yours truly was supposed to transition to his sidearm during a drill but suddenly started looking at the chamber of the weapon before actually performing the transition. Get the picture here: I am ten yards away from the target. My weapon goes click instead of bang when I am trying to address an active threat.

Realistically what can I expect to accomplish at that range by looking at my weapon? If the weapon is empty, I should transition to the sidearm. If it is jammed, I should transition to my sidearm. If it is broken, I should transition to my sidearm....So what does looking at the thing buy me during an active threat except extra opportunity to be shot?

On a conscious level, that makes lots of sense....but that's where "training scars" (A term coined by Stony) come in. Improper programming can lead to you doing things that you don't want to do when your brain is busy with other things....things like charging into a room when you shouldn't, or looking at your weapon when you should be drawing your handgun, etc. The phrase "perfect practice makes perfect" is often used in the shooting world, but I don't think many people understand just how critical it is to program your "reptilian" brain with proper techniques and practices. What you program yourself with WILL come back to you when your behind is on the line.

The night run through the shoothouse was, if you'll pardon the pun, "enlightening". Folks learned some very valuable lessons. Folks who were, to borrow Mr. Vickers' term, "superstars" during the daylight run through the shoothouse had issues during the night run. Again, things get much harder when you're trying to clear rooms AND use the light properly AND keep from stumbling over stuff AND make the angles work for you AND discriminate between threats and innocents at the same time. There was also a $#!%-you-up-the-a$$ target placed by the instructors in a sneaky location to remind you never to take ANY corner for granted that ended up killing most people in the shoothouse.

Students also learned that there really *IS* such a thing as "too much" light...as some folks with really bright lights ended up zapping their own vision with bright light that bounced off of white barrels making up the walls of the shoothouse. Most interior walls in the US are painted with light colors that reflect a lot of light. Mr. Hackathorn pointed out that a lot of people on the internet are "absolutely queer" about how many lumens a light can generate...which goes to show that they've not done much room clearing. A light that can do double duty as the Bat Signal is actually a HINDERANCE to you inside buildings. For a general purpose tactical light, I'd say the maximum you want to go is about 80 lumens. Much more than that and you have problems. If you go much under 60 lumens you're not going to have enough light to get the job done...as the individual with the "49 cent Wal-Mart special" light found out. =)

We finished up the night with muzzle-flash demonstrations, debunking of light as a "weapon" and proper uses of the light for location and identification.

The muzzle flash demo was enlightening to those who had never seen it before. Most of the target ammo used by most folks produced some fairly nasty muzzle flash. The Blazer Brass 9mm ammo I was using was pretty bad, making it difficult for me to see the target after I pulled the trigger. This slowed me down and hurt my accuracy. Various defensive ammo was also shot for comparison. Winchester's "Ranger" loadings and Speer's Gold-Dot loadings produced the least objectionable muzzle-flash.

Again, Golden Saber's 230 grain hollowpoint in .45 ACP was absolutely horrid, flashbulbing the entire line. Here again the point was made that the majority of people who pick ammo do so giving absolutely no thought to how the ammo performs in the dark. While the muzzle flash of a round isn't THE most important factor in evaluating its performance, it is ABSOLUTELY A CRITICAL PART OF AMMUNITION PERFORMANCE THAT SHOULD NOT BE OVERLOOKED. Statistics show that most fights happen at night...and having ammo that renders you blind at night when you use it is not a good idea.

To debunk the notion of handheld tactical lights "blinding" someone and rendering them unable to hurt you, Mr. Hackathorn set a light up to blaze right in Greg Bell's eyes and had Greg fire 5 rounds at the target...and wouldn't you know it? All 5 were kill shots.

Gear observations from the instructors:

- Aimpoints are THE red dot optic of choice. Period.

- Magnifiers suck.

- 2 MOA vs. 4 MOA isn't really something people need to worry about. LAV pointed out that he used 4 MOA dots with great success and accuracy for a very long time, and that when you have a 2 MOA dot dialed up bright enough to see in bright daylight, it's pretty much a 4 MOA dot at that point anyway.

- The M&P is the "pistol of the future".....IF "S&W doesn't $!@#% it up."

- The Surefire 6P and similar lights are pretty much the best combat lights going.

- If you use the push-pull technique with some of the really small Surefire lights, be darned careful that you don't end up pulling the back end of the light against the trigger of your weapon. It's happened before.

- Light placement on the carbine is a continually evolving process. Everybody is always looking for a better mousetrap.

- Crimson Trace lasergrips are the heat.

- Stick to Glocks in 9mm

- Full-auto has real issues in LE and military use when doing CQB type stuff. To paraphrase Mr. Vickers, the nice 2 and 3 round bursts you do on the range turn into 9 or 10 round bursts under stress, which is why his former unit did the vast majority of their shooting on semi-auto. Mr. Hackathorn related an incident where an officer thought he fired 5 or 6 rounds in a fight using full auto, only to find out later that he fired EIGHTEEN rounds.

- You won't be able to count your rounds in a gunfight. It's also a bad idea to make a definitive statement about how many rounds you fired in a gunfight. If you are going to hazard a guess, make damned sure you use terms like "to the best of my recollection I fired maybe x or y rounds, but I really don't remember to be honest", etc.

- If you want a reliable AR carbine out of the box that will give long life and excellent service, stick to Colt's 6920.

- If water gets on a CT grip diode it can block the beam or make it less visible. Be aware of that and have a backup plan.

- If you don't have night sights on your handgun or a red dot on your carbine, you are f**king yourself as far as low light capability goes.

- Merely having night sights and a red dot optic or a laser on your weapon does NOT mean you are prepared for night fighting. Having that stuff and not training with it is just as much f**king yourself as not having the proper tools. Tools are not a substitute for training.

My personal observations:

- If you haven't tried out CT laser grips, DO IT. NOW. Until you've used them you just can't appreciate how unbelievably awesome they are and how big an aid in accuracy they can be. For instance:

I brought my CT grip equipped S&W 442 to the range with me and some ammo to shoot it with. In pitch black conditions with practically no moonlight left (the moon moved behind the horizon at the very end of class) I was using my 442 to accurately put rounds on the center of steel targets I could BARELY SEE from 20 yards.

I was MORE accurate with my 442 than I was with my non-CT equipped M&P. It was unbelievable....and it wasn't just me. I handed my 442 to other shooters and they were using this tiny, nasty recoiling revolver with useless sights and a heavy DA trigger pull ACCURATELY in the pitch friggin' darkness. It's un-friggin'-believable the kind of performance enhancement the CT grips are for a J frame. You simply can't appreciate how awesome they are until you've used them.

Part of the accuracy enhancement they provide is instant feedback on how you are pulling the trigger.

- There is IMMENSE REPEAT VALUE in the low light level 1 course.

- Here and now I'd like to encourage Mr. Vickers and/or Mr. Hackathorn to come up with a course that focuses intensely on topics like defensive room clearing. That is a course EVERY defense minded individual can use and the practice is SORELY needed by most of us. I believe low light level II is more along those lines, but I'm not entirely sure. In any case, it's a compicated enough topic that I think there's plenty of room for a course dedicated solely to it.

I wish I could type more but Ken is going to be here to pick us up in 45 minutes, and I have to get ready. I'll report more later.

Aubrey
05-11-08, 12:37
Very nice AAR; lots of nuggets in there. Please keep 'em coming.

FJB
05-11-08, 13:40
Excellent AAR. I look forward to the LLII class in November!

S/F

UDT
05-11-08, 16:01
Thanks, for a nice AAR.

8mmMauser
05-11-08, 16:54
- Magnifiers suck.
Could you elaborate on this a little bit more? I'm interested in knowing what problems you or others ran into with magnifiers.

Thanks.

NCPatrolAR
05-11-08, 18:14
Solid AAR. Using the same ranges as last year?

Doc Solo
05-11-08, 20:17
Last years Low Light was one of the best trainings I ever attended. Wish I were able to make it this year, reading your AAR will have to do.

Thanks, and enjoy the rest of the class.

SCULLY
05-11-08, 20:21
Great AAR, thanks for the info.

TOrrock
05-11-08, 20:49
Outstanding Tim.

Lumpy196
05-11-08, 21:05
Good stuff!

tjcoker
05-11-08, 22:26
Thanks for the AAR... this is definately going out on email to my friends and training partners.

Tim.

Heavy Metal
05-11-08, 22:44
Good write-up!

they
05-12-08, 18:39
Thanks for the AAR.


- Magnifiers suck.

Could you share his reasoning on this?

John_Wayne777
05-12-08, 20:54
Excellent AAR. I look forward to the LLII class in November!

S/F

Well, my advice is to enjoy the hell out of low light II because Mr. Vickers and Mr. Hackathorn announced to our class today that LLII is the *last* low light course....Not just of 2008....EVER.

They didn't engrave it in stone or anything, but they seemed pretty firm on it.

I sincerely hope they change their position on this because this training is something that you just can't get anywhere else. Training for low light in the day is useful, but there are some things you simply have to experience in the dark to really appreciate and understand.

John_Wayne777
05-12-08, 22:21
Day 2 --

Apparently May is monsoon season in Ohio. It rained all day on day 2....and for a period of about an hour or so it absolutely poured. Every piece of equipment was soaked and everybody was wet. Rain gear helped, but the heavy rain eventually soaked everything whether it was under rain gear or not.

Obviously the 40 degree temperatures and the cold rain was the result of global warming.

The day started doing malfunction drills as instructed by LAV. The first drill was the tap-pull-rack-bang drill, and the second was the "prom night" clearance drill. Here I encountered a problem that partially explains why I am attempting to write up a detailed AAR of this course. For some reason I completely blanked on the proper sequence of this drill. The proper sequence is:

1. Lock the bolt to the rear. (On an AK you have to manually hold the bolt to the rear.)
2. RIP the magazine out of the mag well.
3. Insert the middle two fingers into the mag well and make sure there's nothing stuck up in there. If there is, try to use your fingers to dislodge it.
4. Release the bolt to allow it to go forward into battery.
5. Insert a FRESH magazine into the weapon
6. Cycle the bolt
7. Fire

We ran through this drill several times, resulting in magazines being dropped to the ground over and over...not usually an issue, but the training range in Clarington was thick, nasty mud. When you dropped a magazine it ended up being covered in mud and grass...meaning just about everybody's carbine ate a bunch of mud. Everybody's weapon seemed to handle it pretty well. The one exception was a weapon that suffered a rather odd failure...the roll pin that holds the latch on the charging handle backed out somehow and started digging into the upper receiver, locking the thing up tight. As a side note, it's damned difficult to mortar a weapon in thick mud.

Once all that was sorted out, we did shooting on the move with the carbine and did live fire on what I nicknamed the "Click-Kick-Bang" drill, transitioning to the handgun while using the white light on the carbine. This was also done on the move.

Next we moved on to the *offensive* clearing part of the training, which was all done with handguns, an SMG, or a pistol caliber carbine. The important basics of offensive clearing were covered beginning with the utility and importance of position "Sul", which is an easy way to move in and among people (either innocents or other teammates) without sweeping them with the muzzle of the hot weapon in your hand.

The responsibilities of the lead man and the 2nd man in the room were covered extensively, and the importance of clearing the corners of the room FIRST was heavily emphasized. The importance of getting to the "point of domination" was also stressed. Before actually entering the shoothouse trial runs were done with 2 man teams in a mocked up room layout using pepper poppers.

We then broke for a nice dinner provided to us by the gracious folks who owned the facility. The T-bone steaks were very good, and the lady of the house made sure everybody had plenty of everything....quite kind of her considering what a muddy, wet, motley looking crew we were at that point.

Ben W. and I teamed up and ran through the mockup, and then ran through the house. The results were more than satisfactory. We moved and communicated well, covered our areas properly, and made good hits on our targets. I borrowed Ken's 9mm Colt SMG to do our first run through the house, and the SBR was eating my lunch something fierce. I knew that I was supposed to hold high on the target, but for some reason I kept centering the dot on the A zone and making my shots. Ken had a CT setup mounted on the weapon that I should have used instead of the red dot, in retrospect. That being said, all my shots were close to the A zone and on paper....I didn't add any divots to the block walls of the shoothouse. All my shooting was done in semi-auto.

Up on the catwalk watching other 2 man teams go through was also enlightening. The most common errors I saw was failure to clear corners, failure to get to respective points of domination, and of course, lots and lots of appearances by El Snatcho....all mainly a result of folks moving too fast. Proper follow-through was also an issue. Folks weren't properly painting their zones to make sure all is clear. In the known environment of the shoothouse it's not as big a deal, but it can be a real bad scene if you don't scan the whole room after you've made entry in the real world.

Several innocents/hostages were killed....and "sympathetic fire" happened on more than one occasion, leading one of the AI's to tell a 2 man team: "You know what your team name is now, right? Co-defendants." In the interest of full disclosure I should point out that yours truly went for a ride on the short bus on a knife-wielding target. I buzzed five or six rounds off on him but didn't make a single kill shot...which was mainly a result of not paying proper attention to trigger control. Thankfully I managed to get off the short bus on all the other targets.

Here the phenomenon of shooting the weapon showed up big time just as it did during defensive clearing. People tended to focus intensely on the weapon in the hands of threat targets, causing them to launch bullets at the weapon....a fairly common event in the real world. Generally I was pretty good at sticking to center mass but on a couple of occasions I noticed that I ended up putting one round on the weapon before apparently correcting my focus and shooting for the A zone of the target.

After a couple of runs through with 2 man teams, we then moved on to 4 man teams comprised of two of the previously selected 2 man teams. Ben W., Grant, Blue and I teamed up and made a couple of runs through the house. Again, the results were decent. My main issue was suddenly wanting to penetrate too deeply into the room after making entry...abandoning the "strong wall", which isn't a good idea for a number of reasons.

We then moved on to 6 man teams, and then 12 man teams....and there was much short-bussing in the following directions and accuracy departments...especially in the 12 man runs. After a much deserved verbal smackdown from LAV about our deplorable accuracy as a group, on our last 12 man run we managed to actually get the necessary hits.

The plug was finally pulled at about 1:30 am, and I made it back to the hotel just before 3 am.

Gear observations from the instructors:

- Weapon mounted lights for handguns are a NECESSITY for offensive clearing purposes.

- If you use a weapon mounted light, your holster needs to be able to accept the handgun with the light mounted. Some people attempt to use a standard holster and put the weapon light on and off the weapon as needed....this is asking for disaster.

- CT grips are preferable to Lasermax/other setups because it's easier to turn the CT grips on and off in a dynamic manner. This is EXTREMELY important because lasers are a TARGET INDICATOR if used improperly.

- CT lasergrip batteries last a very long time.

- All-in-one laser/light units have some advantages and disadvantages....but the list given of disadvantages was a lot longer than the list of advantages.

- Thigh-mounted "tactical" or "assault rig" holsters don't just exist because they look "cool", as anyone who has tried to use a standard belt mounted holster with body armor will tell you.

- If you are in the market to purchase a handgun, get one with a rail on it so you can mount a light.

- The exception to the above is Glocks in calibers other than 9mm. The .40 caliber Glocks especially have had LOTS of issues with a light mounted to them.

- Again, stick to Glocks in 9mm.

- 3 green dot night sights are the most common configuration out there....and also probably the least desirable configuration possible.

My personal observations:

- The vast majority of my shooting in the shoothouse (with the exception of the aforementioned knife-wielding target) was A zone all the way, generally shot while moving and when using a handheld light. That isn't a testament to my ability as a shooter, but is rather a reflection of how easy my M&P 9mm is to shoot well. It is almost as forgiving as my 1911....and that's a BIG DEAL, folks.

Trigger control is the indispensable bedrock fundamental of accuracy that you can't live without. Your stance can suck, your grip can suck, and your sight alignment can suck, but if you make a good trigger pull with the weapon indexed on the target odds are that you are going to make a pretty decent hit. On the other hand, if you have a perfect grip, stance, and sight picture but gank the trigger pull you aren't going to hit sh*t.

...and yet, you don't hear a lot of people talk about the importance of a good trigger on a fighting handgun. Because trigger control is THE most important part of putting a bullet where it needs to go under stress, it becomes eminently sensible to concern yourself with trying to find a weapon that works with you as much as possible in the trigger control department. This is not to say that relying on a 2 pound trigger to make up for a lack of exercising proper trigger control is acceptable, but neither is the tendency of some in the gun culture to ignore trigger characteristics on fighting handguns because they aren't meant for competition shooting.

Accuracy in the defensive use of firearms is EXPONENTIALLY more important than in an IPSC match. Misses in IPSC cost you points, whereas misses in the defensive use of a firearm can cost you life, limb, and massive damage judgments in civil court. As Mr. Hackathorn said repeatedly, every bullet fired in America has a lawyer attached to it.

Blake
05-12-08, 22:46
Well, my advice is to enjoy the hell out of low light II because Mr. Vickers and Mr. Hackathorn announced to our class today that LLII is the *last* low light course....Not just of 2008....EVER.

They didn't engrave it in stone or anything, but they seemed pretty firm on it.

I sincerely hope they change their position on this because this training is something that you just can't get anywhere else. Training for low light in the day is useful, but there are some things you simply have to experience in the dark to really appreciate and understand.


Did they say why that would be their last class?

NCPatrolAR
05-12-08, 22:49
Did they say why that would be their last class?


I dont know if it has changed; but last time I spoke with Larry (and he may chime in about this) the logistics of the class are on the Herculian scale. I think it takes a lot to get the ranges cooridnated and approval from the surrounding residents for the late night training.

John_Wayne777
05-12-08, 22:51
Day 3 --

The trip to the range on day 3 was an adventure. Have you ever seen those sprint car races they do on mud tracks? That's pretty much what the road in was like....and of course, it was still raining...although thankfully it was very light and not even noticeable after the deluge we endured the previous day. Nobody was making jokes about looking for the ark today like they were on TD2.

We began the day going over hand held light drills with the pistol. After a couple of drills with that Mr. Hackathorn gave us the rundown on point shooting. Mr. Hackathorn's version of "point shooting" involves indexing the weapon at eye level and USING PROPER TRIGGER CONTROL to fire a shot while your focus is on the target. Here again it must be stressed that there's no magic technique or piece of equipment that can make up for poor trigger control. Sights or no sights, laser or no laser, light or no light, if you don't exercise proper trigger control you aren't going to hit sh*t.

We then ran basic point shooting drills including the LETS drill which incorporates movement with point shooting. Shooters found that if they exercised proper trigger control they could make good shots even while on the move with their sights taped up. If they didn't manipulate the trigger properly they ended up killing the berm instead of the steel.

We then moved on to some carbine drills like the carbine el presidente drill....which I won. I managed to win 2 drills, leaving me with some lovely parting gifts. The accuracy on some of the drills was ugly, and I think a large part of the reason was that a bunch of us weren't holding the carbine properly. The 5.56 doesn't have much recoil, but that doesn't mean you can let the weapon float out there without exerting much control over it when you shoot. You have to aggressively pull the weapon into your shoulder using both hands if you want to make multiple shots and/or shoot on the move with the weapon.

The drills I won I was pulling the weapon back into my shoulder HARD...and the dot barely moved. The drills I lost? I was using a very relaxed hold on the weapon.

Raven Concealment showed up and took orders. They came prepared to make custom orders on the spot, but unfortunately they were missing a critical part that allowed them to manufacture on site, so they had to stick to taking orders.

Class was finished a little after 3 pm.

John_Wayne777
05-12-08, 22:52
Solid AAR. Using the same ranges as last year?

Yup. Same ones.

John_Wayne777
05-12-08, 22:56
I dont know if it has changed; but last time I spoke with Larry (and he may chime in about this) but the logistics of the class are on the Herculian scale. I think it takes a lot to get the ranges cooridnated and approval from the surrounding residents for the late night training.

That was certainly mentioned as a reason when this was discussed. The facilities we used were nestled into areas where people live...and having us blasting away with our weapons until 1 or 1:30 am can be a bit of an annoyance to neighbors. Liability was also mentioned, albeit briefly as a response to a question about it from a student.

I'm sure at some point Mr. Vickers will post more info about it either in this thread or another one, so before I end up spreading potentially inaccurate information I encourage everyone to await his input.

One thing I will say for sure is that finding a facility where you can run low light intensive training is incredibly difficult. There aren't many shoothouses in the world and of that number there are very few that are open to civilians and of THAT number there are even fewer which will tolerate low light training of the likes seen in this course. That's certainly a factor in this....and we may be wearing out our welcome at the facilities in Ohio where we've done this training.

Blake
05-12-08, 22:59
Excellent AAR. I was hoping to make one of these courses next year, after I return from my lovely trip to the middle east, but it sounds like that won't be a possibility. Hopefully I can just continue to get some Low Light stuff from Larry's other courses. Thanks again.

John_Wayne777
05-12-08, 23:00
Could you elaborate on this a little bit more? I'm interested in knowing what problems you or others ran into with magnifiers.

Thanks.

That's a summation of the opinions expressed by Mr. Vickers and Mr. Hackathorn about magnifiers. Personally I've never messed with them much and to the best of my knowledge there was only one person with a magnifier in this class. I wasn't taking careful mental notes during that part of the course, but perhaps one of the guys who spent their time furiously scribbling on a notepad will be able to flesh that out some.

VA_Dinger
05-13-08, 00:06
There are more Ken/Larry classes being planned for 2009. Maybe not this exact class though. This is a hard class, both on Ken & Larry as well as the students.

(Possible) 2009: Hackathorn/Vickers Advanced 3-Day Pistol/Carbine Class w/ daylight shoot house. I would also expect to see a low light section similar to what gets taught in the advanced level classes now (2-4 hour depending on the class & weather).

Jay Cunningham
05-13-08, 00:42
Great AAR, thanks for the effort.

A Hackathorn/Vickers Advanced 3-Day Pistol/Carbine Class would be killer.

NCPatrolAR
05-13-08, 00:46
(Possible) 2009: Hackathorn/Vickers Advanced 3-Day Pistol/Carbine Class w/ daylight shoot house. I would also expect to see a low light section similar to what gets taught in the advanced level classes now (2-4 hour depending on the class & weather).


I'm there. :D

The Dumb Gun Collector
05-13-08, 01:19
Just got home after a long-ass drive back to Georgia!!:D

This was an awesome class. I am sad to hear that it might not be offered in the future. It really is hard to say where else you could get this kind of training. I really enjoyed every part of it (although I had to break-out early and miss the third-day stuff).


Here are some pics. Obviously, since it was either raining or dark for most of the class, opportunities to take photographs were limited...



http://gallery.mac.com/timetravelfoundation/100038/P1010002/web.jpg

In this one you can almost hear Larry thinking, "Did Paul check Greg's credentials before he came here??"


http://gallery.mac.com/timetravelfoundation/100038/P1010003/web.jpg

Here is Ken setting up the shoot-house for later. Also, you can almost hear him thinking, "Did Paul check Greg's credentials before he came here??"

http://gallery.mac.com/timetravelfoundation/100038/P1010004/web.jpg

Some day-time warm up drills for shooting on the move/pistol transition. The class had almost as many instructors and assistants as students. That is called getting your money's worth (not to mention, it is hard to hide all the stupid things you are doing).



http://gallery.mac.com/timetravelfoundation/100038/P1010007/web.jpg

Larry's current class rig. A 416 upper, of course!

http://gallery.mac.com/timetravelfoundation/100038/P1010010/web.jpg

Larry's uber-simple light rig. I guess when you know what you are doing you don't have to hide behind your gear. (For example, I have the equivalent of a WWII search light on my AR).

http://gallery.mac.com/timetravelfoundation/100038/P1010009/web.jpg

Of course, this AK rig with ULTRA-MINIMALIST light rig put all of us tactical posers to shame!!!

Top things I learned...

1. Two boys having sex is just wrong.
2. I apparantly should be transported most places in a "short bus."
3. I have the skills of a Navy Seal. I was elated to hear this until I found out that was not a compliment from a retired Delta dude.
4. Hogan has some sort of goat.
5. I should "Simma down now."

I will post some serious thoughts after I get some Fr%&^ sleep.:D

dhrith
05-13-08, 04:35
"Originally Posted by 8mmMauser View Post
Could you elaborate on this a little bit more? I'm interested in knowing what problems you or others ran into with magnifiers."

"Thanks.
That's a summation of the opinions expressed by Mr. Vickers and Mr. Hackathorn about magnifiers. Personally I've never messed with them much and to the best of my knowledge there was only one person with a magnifier in this class. I wasn't taking careful mental notes during that part of the course, but perhaps one of the guys who spent their time furiously scribbling on a notepad will be able to flesh that out some."



I don't think there's a per se specific single reason like the third lock down nut always comes loose. It's just a continuation of the "trying to make the system do all things, at the expense of the one thing it absolutely should do without question." It adds weight, further mounting parts to fail, mechanical pivoting parts to fail. more parts to snag, for a sometimes possibility to see farther. This might help you out one of the ten times you apply your weapon while ****ing you over with 2 more 3 impediments out of that same ten.
Basically guys trying to make their sbr's/m4s they use every day clearing houses into sniper rifles for that one guy a week out laying an ied at 600 yds. I don't think anyone but each individual person can accurately answer their mission application. But unless were running through the sand box, these classes are as close as we're going to get to defining what we think our mission/needs are going to be. I truly think for most people this answer is going to be clearing my house or property, now do I truly need a magnifier? What I find most funny is when people find out the question they are asking isn't the one they thought they needed to ask, or the answer they get wasn't the one they were expecting. Each person needs to find this out for themselves. Luckily people like Larry and Ken are sometimes here along the way to help us shine a little light on both the "question" and the "answer." And failing that,.....give us a kick in the right direction. ;p If I misinterpreted this I'm sure someone will be along shortly...;p

I myself have been asking a lot of these questions along the way referencing my gear, and what I need, ....not necessarily want. This partly explains why I came down in the manner I did. For starters I brought 3 rifles because I couldn't pick before I left which I wanted to shoot and what philosophy I wanted to use for the training, more on this later. First, AR was in progress, red dot but no irons and low on ammo, no light yet. That got axed before I even got there... not driving by Ohio super tactical fully stocked super store with everything a guy could need and having time to walk through and grab it off the shelf. Second, AK had no red dot, more accurately no proper mount for the red dot on the AR, did have irons of course. Had TONS of leftover 762 ammo from the AK class, sighted in and runs like a top. DID NOT however have my carbine lighting issue worked out and decided before class which turned out to be a bit of a snafu due to my "ASSumption I'd have time between day 1, day class portion and night portion to hit town during dinner and get something figured out. Big **** up on my part. On a good note, word on the street is LaRue is trying to contact me to market my new AK light mount. ;p Third, was my Galil, which was pretty cherry, not sighted in, no red dot, no light, some ammo. Again, I'll come back to this later. As for gear, I've been thinking lately how we all like to dress the hardcore part, but truthfully I'm not active duty anymore, I'm not LE, and I don't contract in the sand box. SO for me to dress up that way is kind of unrealistic, not truthful to myself and a downright disservice to paying all this money to train in a manner that I most likely won't be utilizing in real life. Oh don't get me wrong, I threw a vest, shingles, dump pouch, hydration vest, blah, blah,blah in the truck. But, we've all seen the pictures of the "Swat" guys all kit'd out in gear and armor with a nice full pouch of mags sitting right on top of his pistol locking it in completely oblivious to it because, HE DIDN'T TRAIN THAT WAY. This also works in the exact opposite direction. SO, I decided I was going to go the unsuspecting local who gets in the shit storm with no notice and has to throw some shit in a bag and make due and see how far I could run with that ball, a la katrina, tornado, blizzard, regional power outage. Let me tell ya' in case you're considering it but worried about under performing.
Worked like a charm, and I think it paid off in spades. Hell, there have been times I've had issues with the base of an AK mag getting caught on the shingle stitching and being a pain in the ass to extract and load, especially under stress. Say it won't happen to you eh? load bullets down? well I'm pretty sure I've had the backside locking latch catch too. Run AR mags, nothing to catch? Try tugging em out at an angle cuzz you're all amp'd up and under stress. Again, not with a shoulder bag, ;p hand went in, hand came out with a mag. No rocking, cocking it, tugging blah blah blah. This will also take some consideration though just like anything else. I had about 10Lbs or so in mine, some spare mags, GPS, binoc's, and truthfully probably should have had more like 20, a meal,drink, and small med kit. I had what I believe to have been about 1.5" unpadded strap and think even with my 21" neck anything over 10ish needs a wider strap or padding for using though out the whole day. Compartmentalization would of course be good for organization and speed, I just grabbed a junker bag I had laying around the house with one main center and two small ones on each end. Carried it about 10o'clock, pistol on a paddle at 4o'clock, spare pistol mags on a paddle at 8o'clock. This is where I think Raven concealment is gonna be the shizznit, first order of business is gonna be a custom mag holder for 2 rifle mags and 2 pistol mags for my left side shingled two by two. Quicker accessibility and better load distribution. Gear customized to the mission/user instead of compromising with what might commercially available/configurable. Truly think these guys can go far with this especially after talking to them and getting an impression of their attitude and how they want to work with you and get you a product that is for YOUR use, not everyones' else's use and also their attention to detail in all facets design, manufacture, etc. The modularity and reconfigurability is pretty crazy awesome too. Hell I think at one point Ken showed us his rig they made up and it had two mags, a small j-frame backup, a little lunch box towards the back and a small thermos towards the front seeing as, well.... he had so much real estate. ;p He blamed it on age, .....but i noticed Larry carries his outside of the waistband too, shrug. ;p
Well, on to lights, HAhaHAhAHHAA well, I carried this one a bit too far. I figured the odds of a regular joe having the whizzbang 2000 with 1.5gigawatts of lighting wasn't as likely as joe farmer having a maglight laying around so i grabbed that and actually thought it might be passable/functional. It wasn't even close. Not even in the same ****ing universe as close. I also threw a chicom with a cree bulb in it in there that I'd guess was putting out 40-50? lumens. Enough for movement, but not proper target identification. I was waaaaaaay too chicken to pull out any of the "d" lights to see how bright they were, c'mon a guy can only take so much ribbing. ;p As someone quantified earlier I'd say the optimum lumens is about 80, second night that's what I had and it rocked went out and bought a G2 at lowe's of all places. Might get away with 65 and up to 100 but you'll likely be risking the ends of not enough and too much. Keep in mind this was for the hand held or a pistol light-most likely to be used in that 3-15 yard range, your carbine has the longer range so i'd definitely be willing, no let me re-phrase that, desirous of getting in the 100-200 lumens range so I can ID targets in that 15 to let's say 35-40 yard range under the belief I would be using that for outdoor application not indoors so much. Why you ask?, just a feeling/personal belief. Everything I lose from the carbine's power, I gain in the pistols ease of application in working corners etc in a house. On my AK I had a TL-3 and think it had what's listed as 175 lumens and thought that was pretty darn good, OH and keep in mind this was with original iron sights. No red dot, no xs big dot, no filed gap. Thats probably enough on lights. Sling was a vickers, nuff said. Ammo ak/wolf day1/2. Runs like a champ on it, no malfs, no malfs ak class last year either, dabbed a little lube on day 2,.. i think...;p Broke out the Galil for the 3rd day, all I can say is WOW, ****ing rocks, think the ak's gonna get pissy the rest of the year spending time in the safe. Accurate as ****, runs smooth, bullet proof like the ak, 35 rd mags. Was built up for my by a guy on http://www.theakforum.net/ (Apologies if linking is against a rule.) Great ak site btw. System like that with a light and a micro if I can figure out how to solidly mount one is gonna rock I believe.
Ranges were great, day 1 regular club house ranges for initial practice/warming up first day several range flavors. Various flashlight techniques demonstrated and practiced, working with a partner/s(day2). in the house(day2) we used whatever flashlight technique we fell into without getting hung up on one or the other, this for the moment was likely a good thing since we were chewing on so much by this time. Important thing, you need one inside gun, and one outside gun. Day 2, shoot house was awesome, loaned out to us graciously with an adjoining 100yd range for warming up/transitions/failure drills. One thing I found fascinating in retrospect in analyzing my runs through the night, is how we would do things different at night as opposed to in the day. In the day, I don't think I missed a room door body block, at night I'm pretty sure I missed all but maaaaybe one. Basically my world shrunk to the circle of light, even though i had JUST walked through the door and knew what it represented. This is the only time I remember myself blatantly tunneling. Biggest mistake I remember by everyone at night was not achieving their corners of domination. With crafty target positioning, this killed more than one person because they didn't get to a position to see the bad guy. Trigger snatching was RAMPANT. Myself included. I know where it came from and I'm f'ing stupid for picking it up, and now will pay the price to train it back out. Basically I haven't practiced for shit in 3 years, maybe few thousand last year, and literally few hundred this year. On a square range I can lock up fairly tight being barrel chested and get away with it. Like a short bus olympian that was as far as I looked. In real life target/shooter movement, darkness, holding/manipulating a flashlight etc, and you can't get away with stupid shit like that. I had no issues with anyone's muzzle or finger control and felt safe the whole time even though there was probably a couple guys commenting about how nervous they were (in general/amp'd up) and what i believe them thinking they might not be up to the task. Everyone fubar'd the movement here and there, but safety was always good from what I saw. Oh another thing I developed at night, but don't remember having in the day was this propensity to target focus rearward when exiting a room instead of forward. Third day was back to the rifle ranges for some casual practice, shoot offs and meeting raven. All in all a freaking awesome opportunity and privilege.

As for the class ending, i wouldn't blow it up for more then it is. Realistic issues not bad student reasons. I'll clear any further comments with Larry before I post 'em. That's all for now anyways, I'm tired.

John_Wayne777
05-13-08, 09:00
Final thoughts/miscellaneous stuff:

- My personal gear choices

Sights - I was running a plain black Warren Tactical rear sight for my M&P with a Bowie/Ameriglo front sight. This arrangement turned out to be very useful. It was easy to find the front dot, put it on an almost invisible target, and make good shots. The real impediment to my shooting in the dark (aside from the occasional appearance of El Snatcho) was the muzzle flash of my ammo. The Blazer Brass ammo put out a pretty nasty white flash that made it harder to see the target.

The only odd thing I noticed about this sight arrangement was my propensity to occasionally shoot high by not properly aligning the sights before I broke my shot. This resulted in a few hits high on the target just outside the A zone...still good hits in real life, but a reminder to slow down and take the extra hundredth of a second to put the sights in the right orientation.

Sling - The Vickers 2 point sling is the last sling you'll ever need.

Magazines - PMAGs are awesome. I didn't experience a single malfunction during this course....and whereas a mag related malfunction cost me a drill during the November course, this time my switch to PMAGs allowed me to win a couple of drills....which resulted in bringing home another PMAG as a prize. You can never have too many magazines.

Aimpoint - Mine is only a CompC, but it's still an Aimpoint. It rocks.

Surefire G2 - I decided to run a Surefire G2 instead of my Surefire 950 series weapon light partly because I saw LAV use his with great success and partly because I didn't want to have the ARMS throw lever mount drop my 950 off my weapon in the middle of a drill again. It worked very well. The only downside was that without the VFG I had on my weapon previously to accommodate the tape switch of the 950, I wasn't able to get as much leverage on the front of the weapon as I wanted.

M&P - It ran flawlessly.

Locktite - I didn't use any on my gear this time around....and it showed. The Surefire carbine rail system I have (which I bought for a song) relies on two allen screws up front to push the top half of the rail against the bottom half of the rail. If these screws work their way out you can end up with the top rail piece moving back and forth freely. The rails won't fall off the weapon or come apart, but it's still not a good thing to have going on.

I also noticed that the screws that hold the mounting hardware to the body of my X200B were coming loose as well. Those apparently don't come locked down from the factory so they are going to need to be given a little Lock-tite love.

Privi-Partisan M193 - It ran well in my carbine and didn't have any more appreciable muzzle flash than my XM193. I was pleasantly surprised that it didn't give me any issues. My experience with it thusfar (most of my carbine shooting was done with the PP ammo) seems to indicate that it is pretty good stuff.

Changes to my gear as a result of this class - The only change I'm going to make (aside from using more Lock-tite, of course) will probably be the addition of a stubby VFG just to help me get more leverage on the front of the weapon so I can pull it back tighter into the shoulder. You don't need one to do that, but the hand position I need to run the light on my carbine doesn't lend itself to a really aggressive pull by the support hand. A stubby VFG might help that.

- SWAG

Thanks to Magpul who graciously gave every student at this class a free PMAG.

VA_Dinger
05-13-08, 12:00
It's nice to see another AK was run in the class. That makes at least 4-5 guys between the three classes.

:D

Larry Vickers
05-13-08, 13:48
Another low light #1 completed - things went well dispite the weather

I will try and hit a few high points;

1) most guns ran fine keeping in mind this is not a high round count class

2) neither Ken nor I are really wild about the magnifers for red dots; my advice is save your money and buy an S&B short dot - after you price out the optics and mounts it is not that much more; or better yet have an Aimpoint and an S&B on good throw lever mounts and switch as needed - pricey ;the best always is

3) we are only planning 1 more low light class ; level 2 in November. After careful consideration with all factors weighed we feel it is time to close it down - sorry

4) thanx a million to Magpul, 10-8 performance, TangoDown, nad G&R Tatcial for the prizes donated ; we really appriciate the support

be safe

LAV

Bama-Shooter
05-13-08, 15:04
Excellent AAR.

You should consider writing articles.

I love training in the rain. :D

NCPatrolAR
05-13-08, 15:55
Several innocents/hostages were killed....and "sympathetic fire" happened on more than one occasion, leading one of the AI's to tell a 2 man team: "You know what your team name is now, right? Co-defendants."

Let me guess....... Joe R said that didnt he? ;)

John_Wayne777
05-13-08, 16:07
Let me guess....... Joe R said that didnt he? ;)

I believe it was.

...notice how I have neglected to mention the names of the hostage shooters....and for a low, low price I will continue to keep silent. Hint, hint. :D

the1911fan
05-13-08, 16:41
That was certainly mentioned as a reason when this was discussed. The facilities we used were nestled into areas where people live...and having us blasting away with our weapons until 1 or 1:30 am can be a bit of an annoyance to neighbors. Liability was also mentioned, albeit briefly as a response to a question about it from a student.

I'm sure at some point Mr. Vickers will post more info about it either in this thread or another one, so before I end up spreading potentially inaccurate information I encourage everyone to await his input.

One thing I will say for sure is that finding a facility where you can run low light intensive training is incredibly difficult. There aren't many shoothouses in the world and of that number there are very few that are open to civilians and of THAT number there are even fewer which will tolerate low light training of the likes seen in this course. That's certainly a factor in this....and we may be wearing out our welcome at the facilities in Ohio where we've done this training.


Welders goggles anyone?????

John_Wayne777
05-13-08, 18:01
I want to thank the Raven Concealment guys for coming to our class. Just to let everyone know just how big a deal that was for them, they got a big .gov order dropped on them late Saturday that needs to be completed ASAP to be shipped over to Iraq.

...and yet they still packed up and came to our class planning to make stuff on scene Monday. There aren't many companies out there who would do the same.

Jay Cunningham
05-13-08, 18:27
I have quite a bit of RCS gear now - I'm glad to see that they're doing so well.

C4IGrant
05-13-08, 18:35
I believe it was.

...notice how I have neglected to mention the names of the hostage shooters....and for a low, low price I will continue to keep silent. Hint, hint. :D


Shoot, I'm a hostage killer and proud of it! I also follow team Canada's logic; "I only saw one hand so I shot them." ;)


Good to see you again JW777 and to meet some new guys. As always, I walked away with a little more than the time before.

Note for the future Low Light class attendees, wear some kind of IR Beacon as LAV really likes these things. :D


C4

SCULLY
05-13-08, 20:03
[QUOTE=Greg Bell

Top things I learned...

2. I apparantly should be transported most places in a "short bus."
3. I have the skills of a Navy Seal. I was elated to hear this until I found out that was not a compliment from a retired Delta dude.
[/QUOTE]


Hahahahahaha Classic ! :D

The Dumb Gun Collector
05-13-08, 20:26
I shot my only hostage on the first night (right through the hand). Ken got on to me so I threw down my knife beside the target and said, "she had a weapon." Ken then said, "there may be hope for you yet Bell.":D

John_Wayne777
05-13-08, 20:54
I shot my only hostage on the first night (right through the hand). Ken got on to me so I threw down my knife beside the target and said, "she had a weapon." Ken then said, "there may be hope for you yet Bell.":D

Now THAT is how you handle shooting a hostage.

dhrith
05-13-08, 22:27
Well, few more observations/points/moments of clarity I wanted to get down before I forget them.

As was mentioned a weapon(pistol) mounted light when clearing is a nice option. It potentially frees up a hand for other tasks while allowing one to maintain the lighting capability. If you don't have a rail, it's not the end of the world but if you're in the market for another pistol you'd be silly not to require that to be a feature. If you do have one, leave it attached, don't assume you'll have or be able to mount it when the shit hits the fan. This of course creates special holster considerations which are not all available, but HEY wait, Raven concealment can make you anything you want...ding,ding,ding. ;p Types? Any weapon light is better than none, and surefire is king.

The laser grips, definitely the shit. Even if you don't use them always, the OPTION to use them might save your bacon in multiple situations. Consistently training with them however, and training properly, will just plain improve what your doing. It's pretty equivalent to the long gun/red dot situation. You can operate without them, but everything just gets more consistent and slightly quicker in general with them. Bad points to them? Dependency and being a position indicator. This brings it back to the training properly comment. Crimson trace being brand of choice due to quality, reliability and style issues with the exception of a model or two (ie glocks). Lasermax being better then not having them but more breakage prone. Under the bore style? If I went that way I'd have it integrated with my light, see my previous light comment surefire is king. Guide rod style? ****ing retarded, more mechanical breakage prone parts in my gun to disable it, no thanks.

Night sights, think someone touched on this already, if not. Definite must, ... it's dark out...duh. Any tritiums are better than none. Those that are simpler are better than those that aren't it goes without saying. Three green dots are hard to tell if front post is between, left or right of rears. e.g. Single green would likely be better, straight eights would also. Green front, orange rears would be better than all greens but a level slightly more complicated. Anything more complicated....is slower to use. Walk out in the dark and try to apply what you have and see how it does or doesn't work before you need to pull it out under duress.

Half of what we need to find out, CAN be found out by getting off our butts and trying to apply it in our backyards or living rooms before we even walk into our training environments or god forbid shit hitting the fan for real.

Red dots, hmmm I'm hesitant to talk much about them because I haven't started any serious training with them. I don't have anything against them it's just I wanted to force myself to do a couple classes and training without them to know what issues I might have to deal with if I ever DIDN'T have them. I think I have a good feel for that now. That being said I have used them and can tell they're a HUGE advantage. Get them, whatever damn style floats your boat after doing some research for your application. I like the view of the EO's but hear all the time of reliability issues. I bought a millet since it's unlikely I'll be winning the lottery any time soon for a S&B but figure for what it does, for how much it costs it'll be close enough for what I'm using it. I never frankly liked the aimpoints, GASP! BLASPHEMY hehe, sorry it's just for the view area offered I always thought the body blocked too much peripheral. Butttt noooow we have the micro and I'm pretty sure I'm in love at first sight. no pun intended. ;p It's small as shit in the body, no crap hanging off the frame, sits low and solidly to the reciever, light weight, god what's not to like. That'll be my first purchase after getting my irons, lights, mount issues all taken care of on my AR/AK/Galil. Larry mentioned something pretty smart too that I think i'll do is get some good quick throw mounts, LaRue's I'm guessing. Micro for the majority of work, and if need to do some long work just pop the damn thing off and throw something more appropriate on like the S&B for the rich folk, or in my case millet. ;p


If I haven't said it yet, big thanks for all the swag donated; magpul,10-8,G&R and for raven coming all the way down for the hook up.

Think this covers most of what I haven't referenced yet, again awesome class and big thanks to both Larry and Ken for having the balls to put it on, and all the guys that came to help out and give a hand to include both ranges.

The Dumb Gun Collector
05-14-08, 00:20
Sling work. I basically have been running my sling as a carry strap all of these years. I knew that, because It never seemed natural to be tinkering with the sling. Larry, who designed the sling I run on my carbine, showed me where to mount it for optimal usage, although he granted there were no hard and fast rules. One especially awkward drill involved transitioning to a pistol while continuing to use the rifles light. We ended up having to let-out the slack in our slings and tuck the rifle under our support arms. You then use your support hand to operated the rifle light and use your strong hand to point the pistol. I screwed this one up many, many times! I got groans from Larry, Ken and some dude named Stoney. I still have tons to learn about sling work.

Accuracy. Fortunately, after the first transition drill where I milked to shots slightly left and touching the upper left A zone, I had excellent accuracy with the exception of two other high-pressure times where my shots drifted out of the A-zone. Mr. Hackathorn commented at one point, after a very tight group, that “Clearly the HK45 is damn accurate.” Several other of my groups elicited remarks of approval from various instructors, and I never was dinged for “el-snatcho.” Although, in the Mexican vein, I was briefly nicknamed by Larry “Poncho Villa” for my large emergency rain poncho. Larry may be Mr. Fancy-pants Delta guy, but he knows NOTHING of sexy rainwear.;)

As expected I was less confident in my carbine handling skills than pistol. This was my first carbine course. My accuracy was fine, with zero “el-snatchos.” Obviously, the Carbine is MUCH more forgiving than the pistol. Most of my carbine problems revolved around malfunction drills. My tendency before was to just snatch the mag out and work the bolt a few times and try a different mag

At one point, Larry asked to see my HK45 trigger to test it out. Apparently his example had a better-than-average trigger and he wanted to test some other examples. The funny thing is, he ordered his gun over the net! He gave mine the thumbs-up also.

LAV considers the Eotech, at best, a 3-gun optic. Not ready for prime time.

The Glock 21 is “a piece of ****.”

Get an AK before Obama gets elected.

Aimpoint magnifiers are useless.

Always hold your carbine as far forward on the handguard as possible.

DO NOT run a forward grip. He says the surefire foregrip lights are the worst possible set-up (“gay pedophile porn bad”)because it forces you to use it as a broom-handle.

If you MUST use a VFG, get a short one and choke-up on it.

Do not put your rifle on safe when you transition to pistol. Just drop it.

Single point slings are trash. Only useful for changing shoulders.

Bolt hold-open on rifles are over-rated. The click of an empty AK is actually of more combat value, since you are much more likely to discover the AR is empty by pulling the trigger than noticing the bolt hold open. It doesn’t work how it is intended, and lets **** in the gun.


We worked on the “flash bulb” light technique. The essence of this is that you cannot keep your light on. It must be on only long enough for you to ID a target (.5 sec) and then you MOVE.

Only turn light on when you have to.

A 60-80 lumen light is optimal. Either a 6p or nitrolon on a ring or a scout light.

For transitions when using rifles with white light you should place your carbine under your support arm and deploy your pistol with your strong hand--activating your rifle with your support hand as needed.

Ken Hackathorn says Colt is producing some of the best 1911s ever right now.


Sig Sauer QC is in the ****ter.

Smith M&Ps are the best value. But Smith will probably ruin them if the past is any indication.

XDs are “Bubba guns.” Junk that Bubba buys for cheap and goes to the dump and shoots at rats with.

Hk makes the best engineered, best quality guns in the world-bar none.

Get Two of any pistol you want.

Get at least six mags and rotated them every 6 months.

Trigger weight shouldn’t exceed twice the weight of the gun.

Heavy triggers are safer, but unusable.

Rob Leatham is the best pistol shot ever.



Shooting on the move. Aggresive stance, bend knees, heel-toe forward, toe-heel backwards.

Lateral shooting. Keep square and side-step. Don’t cross feet. Don’t walk and twist your upper body. Exposes side to almost certainly fatal wounds.

Reloads. Keep gun up high and look through trigger-guard.

Use slide release when possible.

LAV says do not reload by forward slapping the mag.


DO NOT RACK YOUR SLIDE AFTER A TACTICAL RELOAD.

Surefire needs to incorporate strobe function.

When room clearing, ALWAYS move to reduce your angles. This usually means moving to a corner.


DONT STAND IN FRONT OF DOOR.

Don not cross open door ways (I did this).

When doing team entry, always keep the same wall behind your back (Strong walling) so that you don’t shoot each other. The first man always goes to the known first. With the second going in the opposite direction. As the corners are cleared they both move to the corner as they both turn to clear the room on their respective sides until they scan all the way up to 1 meter in front of their parter.
__________________

Blake
05-14-08, 02:20
DO NOT RACK YOUR SLIDE AFTER A RELOAD. STAY THE **** AWAY FROM THOSE WHO RECOMMEND IT.




I assume by this they were saying do not rack the slide once it has been released the first time.

Or were they talking about using the overhand or slingshot method to release the slide during a slide-lock reload?

The Dumb Gun Collector
05-14-08, 10:08
Yeah, don't rack the slide after a tac-reload, I should have said. I went ahead and changed it.

It seemed like LAV wasn't all that hot on the slingshot or overhand method either.

I remember asking an instructor about this at one school I shall call "Inappropriate Response." I said, what if I only fired one or two shots? Since his doctrine was to ALWAYS tac reload when the situation permited, he just snapped, "ALWAY rack the slide after you reload!"

I was thinking: Hmm, I shoot at a guy with my P7 one shot and he ducks away. I duck into a safe spot in the building where I can see where he is. His dumb ass robot doctrine would have me dump my mag, reload, and dump a round--putting me in exactly the same spot!

Not to mention the added risk of inducing a malfunction in a perfectly operational gun by slingshoting the slide for almost no reason.

Of course, this guy would have said that my P7 was a POS and I should get a Glock. It is nice to get some training from someone whose class is informed by real world experience.

John_Wayne777
05-14-08, 10:28
Yeah, don't rack the slide after a tac-reload, I should have said. I went ahead and changed it.

It seemed like LAV wasn't all that hot on the slingshot or overhand method either.

I asked Ken Hackathorn about that before my run in the shoothouse. I have observed people inducing a malfunction under stress a number of times using the slingshot method of operating the slide. Ken backed that up stating that he had seen the same problem.

If you have to manually rack the slide, use the overhand method.

STS
05-14-08, 14:18
Ken Hackathorn says Colt is producing some of the best 1911s ever right now.

Did he go into why he feels Colt's are the best at this time?

30 cal slut
05-14-08, 14:22
I killed a hostage too. LAV offered me up a few more.

Heavy Metal
05-14-08, 14:25
I accidentally killed a hostage once at a match. Told the RO I had it on good authority that the deceased was a child molester.

Sam
05-14-08, 14:30
Of course, this guy would have said that my P7 was a POS and I should get a Glock. It is nice to get some training from someone whose class is informed by real world experience.

Don't forget you need the big dot front sight so you can hit metal plates at 100 yds like he can. :)

30 cal slut
05-14-08, 14:32
Yeah, don't rack the slide after a tac-reload, I should have said. I went ahead and changed it.

It seemed like LAV wasn't all that hot on the slingshot or overhand method either.

I remember asking an instructor about this at one school I shall call "Inappropriate Response." I said, what if I only fired one or two shots? Since his doctrine was to ALWAYS tac reload when the situation permited, he just snapped, "ALWAY rack the slide after you reload!"

I was thinking: Hmm, I shoot at a guy with my P7 one shot and he ducks away. I duck into a safe spot in the building where I can see where he is. His dumb ass robot doctrine would have me dump my mag, reload, and dump a round--putting me in exactly the same spot!

Not to mention the added risk of inducing a malfunction in a perfectly operational gun by slingshoting the slide for almost no reason.

Of course, this guy would have said that my P7 was a POS and I should get a Glock. It is nice to get some training from someone whose class is informed by real world experience.

ouch. reading this was almost as painful as watching his video.

30 cal slut
05-14-08, 15:16
btw i'm trying to cram all this with my notes into one word document or pdf file ... if any of the attendees wants a copy later this week please pm me with your e-mail addy.

Westminster
05-17-08, 07:24
Thanks for the very helpful AAR. If this really is the last set of LL courses, it is helpful to those who couldn't be there.

I'm curious about the light mount on Larry's 416. What did he say about it and other light mounts? How did he prefer to activate it, especially without a VFG?

Sam
05-17-08, 07:35
Thanks for the very helpful AAR. If this really is the last set of LL courses, it is helpful to those who couldn't be there.

I'm curious about the light mount on Larry's 416. What did he say about it and other light mounts? How did he prefer to activate it, especially without a VFG?

It's a Vltor and he uses his right thumb to activate the button. He prefers simplicity.

Westminster
05-17-08, 09:08
It's a Vltor and he uses his right thumb to activate the button. He prefers simplicity.

So he's a lefty?

Also, did they share thoughts about switching shooting sides when working corners?

Sam
05-17-08, 10:14
So he's a lefty?

Also, did they share thoughts about switching shooting sides when working corners?

He shoots rifle lefty, handgun righty.

John_Wayne777
05-17-08, 13:13
So he's a lefty?

Also, did they share thoughts about switching shooting sides when working corners?

LAV is a cross dominant fellow...meaning he is right handed, but he is left eye dominant.

As a result, he shoots long guns like a lefty but uses his pistols like a right hander, except he still uses his dominant eye. This explains why in pictures you see his head always cocked at an angle when he's shooting his pistol. He frequently demonstrates drills left and right handed....something I'm flabbergasted by. I'm one of those guys who is REALLY right handed so seeing somebody who seems to switch hands with no effort blows my mind.

For a carbine light he uses a basic G2 in one of the VLTOR mounts, and it works splendidly for him. After seeing his use of that setup I bought the same thing to see if it would work as well for me...and it works splendidly. I'm likely going to retire my Surefire 950 series light. The temptation folks have with carbine lights is the same that they have with hand held lights. They get absolutely "queer" for lumens and buy a light that can double as the Bat Signal and mount it to their carbine, ensuring that they'll blast their own vision if they use the weapon in close quarters. LAV activates the light using the base of his thumb. When he wants a burst of light he simply presses forward with the base of his thumb and gets the burst.

As far as switching sides goes, I don't recall a mention of it.

NCPatrolAR
05-17-08, 15:16
Larry teaches bilateral shooting. There isnt a huge push on it; but it is covered.

Jay Cunningham
05-17-08, 15:22
Also, did they share thoughts about switching shooting sides when working corners?

Shoulder transitioning is just another weapon manipulation. At a recent private class LAV had us run the entire carbine portion from our weak shoulder. A properly configured adjusting two point sling will allow this without dropping your arm out.

TOrrock
05-17-08, 15:36
Shoulder transitioning is just another weapon manipulation. At a recent private class LAV had us run the entire carbine portion from our weak shoulder. A properly configured adjusting two point sling will allow this without dropping your arm out.


And it will definitely jerk you out of your comfort zone.

30 cal slut
05-18-08, 19:46
i thought the cheese was better than the jerky.

Ed L.
05-18-08, 21:06
Wow, how did I miss this great AAR?


Yeah, don't rack the slide after a tac-reload, I should have said. I went ahead and changed it.

I've been down that road and concluded for myself that those who advocate always racking the slide on a tac reload are best ignored.

By definition a tactical reload is reloading the gun when you have a round in the chamber so why are you racking the slide.

What longarm did you use for this class?

The Dumb Gun Collector
05-22-08, 00:20
I wussed out and ran my Colt m4gery!

JLM
05-22-08, 02:42
Sights - I was running a plain black Warren Tactical rear sight for my M&P with a Bowie/Ameriglo front sight. This arrangement turned out to be very useful. It was easy to find the front dot, put it on an almost invisible target, and make good shots. The real impediment to my shooting in the dark (aside from the occasional appearance of El Snatcho) was the muzzle flash of my ammo. The Blazer Brass ammo put out a pretty nasty white flash that made it harder to see the target.

The only odd thing I noticed about this sight arrangement was my propensity to occasionally shoot high by not properly aligning the sights before I broke my shot. This resulted in a few hits high on the target just outside the A zone...still good hits in real life, but a reminder to slow down and take the extra hundredth of a second to put the sights in the right orientation.

JW, why are you not down with the rear dots? Curious about that.

I can't get a Warren rear for my 226 with Tritium but I CAN get a Tritium front sight and a plain Warren rear, so that's why I'm asking.

Doesn't Ken just run a dot on the front, and no trit on the rear sight?

Great AAR, sounds like you guys had a good time.

Jay Cunningham
05-22-08, 04:16
JW, why are you not down with the rear dots? Curious about that.

I can't get a Warren rear for my 226 with Tritium but I CAN get a Tritium front sight and a plain Warren rear, so that's why I'm asking.

Doesn't Ken just run a dot on the front, and no trit on the rear sight?

Great AAR, sounds like you guys had a good time.

I use a very similar system, Bowie/Ameriglo trit front and Bowie serrate target rear.

I find the three dot to be to busy of a sight picture.

John_Wayne777
05-22-08, 07:37
JW, why are you not down with the rear dots? Curious about that.


I have guns with the rear dots...and they are a bastard to use in the dark. When you have three green dots of equal brightness like on most night sights, your eyes tend to focus on the rear dots rather than the front dots because in relation to your eye, they are bigger and brighter than your farther away front dot is. A sharpie can help this somewhat, but generally not enough for my taste. When using my 3 dot handguns in previous low light training I typically found myself misaligning my sights on more than one occasion. When you're going through a shoothouse in the dark and you're trying to clear the place and do target discrimination it's really easy to bring the handgun up on a threat and just align three dots and pull the trigger...

...and you find out when you put a bullet right in the throat of a hostage target that apparently you managed to get your front dot outside the rear sight completely to the point where you thought it was the right rear dot. You correct this and put one in the bad guy's cranium, but you're still going to have to buy everybody a round because you zapped a hostage....of course, in real life the consequences would be decidedly less pleasant.

When using the three dot arrangement I've found it easy to get confused as to the alignment of the sights or to even have trouble finding the front sight at all because the rears are so much brighter and bigger.

Different colored tritium vials would help this somewhat...but I'm also color blind. I have a hard time telling the difference between certain colors, especially in low light. That means that even with orange colored rears and a green front, I often don't see a color difference. I've got one of Mr. Bowie's "operator" rear sights on order for the M&P with yellow vials to see if that helps me any...but I have a hard time with greens and yellows in general even in daylight so I'm not too optimistic.

The only combo I can think of that wouldn't give me problems would (I think, anyway) a darkish blue rear and a green front.

Now that's my personal preference and it's partially based on my affliction...but my issues with 3 dot night sights are apparently not mine alone, as the instructors both offered the opinion that 3 dot sight setups (at least with all the dots being the same color) suck.

I was able to run the plain black Warren rear with an Ameriglo front with excellent accuracy. I never had an issue finding my front sight or putting it on the target and making an A-zone hit when I did my part on the trigger. The worst impediment I had to accuracy was the muzzle flash of my ammo. That made it hard to see the target for a fraction of a second and if I was too quick on the trigger I'd end up putting a shot outside the A-zone because I was essentially shooting blind. I would have had the same trouble with 3 dot sights.

...even with that being said, I think I can count on one hand the number of shots I put outside the A zone on my target shooting without a white light at 11:30 at night in the Ohio darkness from 5 to 15 or 20 yards out. I'll take that.



I can't get a Warren rear for my 226 with Tritium but I CAN get a Tritium front sight and a plain Warren rear, so that's why I'm asking.


The best advice I can give to people is to have a T&E gun...a weapon they can play with and try different sighting setups on to find out what's best for them. Sighting arrangements are, in my humble opinion, intensely personal things. Everybody's eyes are different.



Doesn't Ken just run a dot on the front, and no trit on the rear sight?


Yup. Seeing him run that arrangement successfully is what got me interested in trying it. It's the heat, at least for me.

As Ken said: "The rear sight is just an aperture to look through so you can see the front sight."



Great AAR, sounds like you guys had a good time.

It was certainly an interesting class. :D

NCPatrolAR
05-22-08, 10:12
I didnt attend this class, but did take part in one last year. When it came to night sights, I had very good luck running a factory tritium front sight with a Burwell tritium rear sight. These sights were set up in a Straight 8 format. All of my pistols, if capable, have some type of Straight 8 formatted sights on them. I have found it to be a million times easier to stack the two dots in the verticle plane instead of alligning 3 dots in the horizontal plane.

JLM
05-23-08, 01:27
JW, thanks.


...and you find out when you put a bullet right in the throat of a hostage target that apparently you managed to get your front dot outside the rear sight completely to the point where you thought it was the right rear dot.

I other words your pointing the pistol the RIGHT drastically. To me it would seem apparent from the spacing of the dots, but I can see in a dynamic and fluid situation that your brain box might not have to recognize the fact.

John_Wayne777
05-23-08, 08:12
JW, thanks.

I other words your pointing the pistol the RIGHT drastically. To me it would seem apparent from the spacing of the dots, but I can see in a dynamic and fluid situation that your brain box might not have to recognize the fact.

Precisely. When you are focused on the threat and you're playing for keeps, you might not have enough free clock cycles of brain power to notice that your right rear dot is smaller and darker than your middle sight and think "Aha! I'm misaligned! I shall correct this presently!"

Even in a non stressed situation just sitting in my dark living room at night looking at sight arrangements I sometimes have trouble picking up that I'm misaligned unless I am focused pretty intently just on the sights.

the1911fan
06-03-08, 09:16
Forgot Justin from Colt Defense last name...anyone remember Justin's last name??

30 cal slut
06-03-08, 10:01
check ur pm's.

The Dumb Gun Collector
06-04-08, 23:42
I got no PM!:mad:

30 cal slut
06-05-08, 09:47
?

u didn't ask.

:p

Steve
06-05-08, 09:58
Ok I give, why are 3x bad.?

John_Wayne777
06-05-08, 10:19
Ok I give, why are 3x bad.?

Are you talking about the magnifier issue I mentioned?

If so, it isn't because they are "bad" so much as it is that for the expense of a magnifier and a good mount you're pretty close to getting a Short Dot, which is a better answer to the problem.

Steve
06-05-08, 10:32
Are you talking about the magnifier issue I mentioned?

If so, it isn't because they are "bad" so much as it is that for the expense of a magnifier and a good mount you're pretty close to getting a Short Dot, which is a better answer to the problem.



Understood,