View Full Version : Reloading 223: Swage before or after resizing?
I just ordered all the remaining items I will need to start reloading 223. I'm a Dillon guy so I got the Super Swage 600 to take care of those pesky primer crimps. I plan to have 2 tool heads for this set up. Tool head #1 will have the resizing/decapping die in station 1 and the Dillon RT1200B in station 2 for trimming. Mine plan is to run all the brass through tool head #1, then swage, then tumble again to remove case lube and brass shavings. Tool head #2 will have the powder drop, seating die, and crimp die.
My question is: will swaging after sizing and trimming have any effect on the case mouth? I know the Super Swage 600 uses a rod that you slide the case onto mouth first. I just want to make sure the resized neck will not be adversely affected during the swaging process.
Thanks!
I do it exactly the way you plan to and have not had any issues. My second tool head has a universal decaper in it on station 1 just in case a piece of media or something gets in there.
I do it exactly the way you plan to and have not had any issues. My second tool head has a universal decaper in it on station 1 just in case a piece of media or something gets in there.
That's a good idea. I'll have to do that too. Thanks!
I also do it the same way but I have the old 450 press so no tool heads. I
Crimping???
Please don't unless you are shooting canelured bullets...
Crimping???
Please don't unless you are shooting canelured bullets...
I am. Hornady 55g FMJs.
If possible you could load slightly longer so the cannelure is just past the case rim. The benefit is you don't need to crimp and your bullet won't have as far a jump to the lands.
bucktail69
01-05-14, 18:42
Crimping is not needed
I swag before resize
I have been swaging after I re-size / deprime.
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Crimping???
Please don't unless you are shooting canelured bullets...
I put a light FCD crimp on all match ammo. Doesn't hurt a thing.... and some even claim a gain in neck tension consistency... although I've never tried to confirm this.
I put a light FCD crimp on all match ammo. Doesn't hurt a thing.... and some even claim a gain in neck tension consistency... although I've never tried to confirm this.
MarkM, I would respectfully disagree. Non cannalured projectiles were not made to be crimped. If you want to gain consistency in neck tension, the use of bushing neck dies would go a long way in achieving that. I would also be interesting in what the run-out is on a loaded round post crimp.
Out of curiosity, what is your accuracy standard?
MarkM, I would respectfully disagree. Non cannalured projectiles were not made to be crimped. If you want to gain consistency in neck tension, the use of bushing neck dies would go a long way in achieving that. I would also be interesting in what the run-out is on a loaded round post crimp.
Out of curiosity, what is your accuracy standard?
I'll never go back to bushing neck dies. The dreaded donut, and inconsistency in neck tension from different neck thickness killed me. The idea of having a bushing for each kind of brass sucked. I neck size from the inside with either a neck expander or in 30 cal, a Lee Collet neck sizing die. This way all inner diameters are stem/mandrel sized, regardless of neck thickness.
I've shot 1/4 MOA with Pappabear's 5R Rem 700 using Lee FCD'd ammo. All of our match ammo in .223 gets the light crimp.
Now .308 and up goes without because it doesn't need to be as rugged.
Runout? I could do a test. I like digging into that kind of stuff. I'll run 10 rounds through the seater, and check runout before and after crimp to see.
Edit: I might do this test tonight. I have some regular old once fired Win Brass fully prepped on the bench now. I'll try to post something tonight or tomorrow morning. Might as well leave 10 more completely uncrimped and shoot groups over the chrono.
MarkM,
Hey if it works and gives you what you want - awesome. Personally, I've never run into the donut issue with bushing dies. On brass that I turn necks, I cut into the shoulder to prevent that. But - you are right, if the donut problem pops up it can be a serious PITA.
I would be very interested in your runout test.
It is really amazing how a small tweak in a process can influence any number of dimensions.
I have never used any of the Lee collet dies, but have always heard excellent reviews on them.
Are you loading 223 match ammo for high power or ???
I'm totally doing this test. Shit... maybe I'll end up ditching the FCD. If there's a gain, I'm all for it. I don't have a low tension issue. It's just that when Pappbear had me start to load SMKs for him, I was like.... Hell no I'm not taking my Crimp die out.... and the ammo worked good... really good. So we just stuck with it.
Pappabear is Highpower rated, but we just shoot our ammo for long range and accuracy thrills out in the sticks.
As far as the Lee collet dies?? The are awesome, but high maintenance. I load WAY more ammo with them than the average guy so I'm constantly pulling them apart and smoothing the collet shoulders with 400 grit... and relubing.
A pain for sure, but BY FAR the lowest neck runout I've EVER had with any set up.... literally zero to .001... and the .001 being the little creases on the neck where the collet jaws meet.
I've never used the Lee Collet die - can you adjust the neck sizing or is it fixed?
I definitely was able to fine tune my 600 yd 223 ammo by going to a tighter bushing - my ES for velocity came down and the SD dropped to low teens. I use nothing but LC for 600 & 1000 in the 223, so I really don't have to worry about neck wall thickness variation.
I generally run a bit looser in the neck tension for 1K ammo as I load into the lands - I don't want a hard jam and have to worry if I need to unload on the line. The light tension will set back the bullet and gives me very consistent land to ogive contact. Higher neck tension tends to stick the bullet (as in stuck) in the throat and an unload command will result in a case extracted with all the powder in the lugs and a bullet stuck in the throat...don't ask me how I know this....
You can only adjust the neck sizing by turning down the stem. It can be done, and that's what the instructions tell you to do... but I've just left mine.
We did a test on some virgin Lapua that had much stronger neck tension than what my die yields... I was expecting a pick up in velocity, but it wasn't realized at all. (.308)
For 1k ammo, we don't do anything different. It's 77gr SMKs for .223 and 175 SMKs for .308. Neither are depth sensative, so it's mag length. In 300WM, it's 208 AMAX loaded to mag length as well.
So I got phase 1 of the experiment done. Measured the neck runout, bullet runout, then crimped bullet runout. Naturally some of the necks with some runout had a further gain in runout when the bullet was seated. But strangely a few had the same or LESS runout.
NONE of the runout changed after crimping. Each case is marked with sharpie from 1 through 20. The last 10 will get no crimp and be shot for accuracy and chrono data against the first 10 that have crimp. Should be interesting.
You can only adjust the neck sizing by turning down the stem. It can be done, and that's what the instructions tell you to do... but I've just left mine.
We did a test on some virgin Lapua that had much stronger neck tension than what my die yields... I was expecting a pick up in velocity, but it wasn't realized at all. (.308)
For 1k ammo, we don't do anything different. It's 77gr SMKs for .223 and 175 SMKs for .308. Neither are depth sensative, so it's mag length. In 300WM, it's 208 AMAX loaded to mag length as well.
What kind of velocity are you shooting the 77 stuff at for 1K use? My 90 VLD's run 2620 and stay supersonic at 1K.
So I got phase 1 of the experiment done. Measured the neck runout, bullet runout, then crimped bullet runout. Naturally some of the necks with some runout had a further gain in runout when the bullet was seated. But strangely a few had the same or LESS runout.
NONE of the runout changed after crimping. Each case is marked with sharpie from 1 through 20. The last 10 will get no crimp and be shot for accuracy and chrono data against the first 10 that have crimp. Should be interesting.
Definitely curious to see what you get for results. What is this being fired in?
If possible you could load slightly longer so the cannelure is just past the case rim. The benefit is you don't need to crimp and your bullet won't have as far a jump to the lands.
With the Hornady 55's I still have some room in the magazine to lengthen the OAL a little. Once I get my OCW nailed down for these bullets and H335, I'll start playing around with seating depth and crimp/no-crimp to see if it makes a difference.
I'll never go back to bushing neck dies. The dreaded donut, and inconsistency in neck tension from different neck thickness killed me. The idea of having a bushing for each kind of brass sucked. I neck size from the inside with either a neck expander or in 30 cal, a Lee Collet neck sizing die. This way all inner diameters are stem/mandrel sized, regardless of neck thickness.
Assuming were talking about a rim outside the cannelure or no cannelure...
You have the issue of different neck thickness causing different tension with a bushing die. Looks like the Lee collet may be your best answer IF you're just neck sizing. Wait though...assuming two necks are the same inner diameter wouldn't a thicker neck still cause more tension than a thinner neck?
Also wouldn't a crimp make the problem worse? Because with a thicker neck the FCD wouldn't put as much pressure but on a thinner neck put more pressure if that makes sense?
Wait though...assuming two necks are the same inner diameter wouldn't a thicker neck still cause more tension than a thinner neck? I haven't notices any difference in feel when seating. This issue is particularly prevalent in 308 when you go from LC and Lapua.. to Hornady Match and Win. The latter have very thin necks and so a bushing that works on the former will just let the bullet drop into the thin necked case with almost no tension at all.
Also wouldn't a crimp make the problem worse? Because with a thicker neck the FCD wouldn't put as much pressure but on a thinner neck put more pressure if that makes sense?
For whatever reason, No. It just works across the board. I run all my 308 brass regardless of make through the same die setting and I'm good.
What kind of velocity are you shooting the 77 stuff at for 1K use? My 90 VLD's run 2620 and stay supersonic at 1K.
2648 with the .223 max load which is 15.5 mils come up at 1050 yards.
2787 with the 5.56mm load which is 13.5 mils at 1050 yards.
I don't think we stay super on either at our elevation, but Pappabear keeps that chart in his phone.
Definitely curious to see what you get for results. What is this being fired in?
All of this will get fired from the 5R 223 Rem 700. We usually chrono everything out of a Colt 20" Hbar for comparability, but accuracy test out of the Bolt gun. We'll chrono and shoot paper out of the 5R for this project.
All of this will get fired from the 5R 223 Rem 700.
Twist / bbl length?
Wow.
That 77 is easily subsonic by 800yds. I am amazed that you are getting a 77 to stabilize in a 9 twist bbl - I've never been able to do it.
What is the accuracy like at 1K?
That 5R Shoots those 90 gr SMKs to 1000. Never measured the twist exactly... but it's likely closer to 1/8. Accuracy is Minute of Gong. We never run paper out that far.
Yeah... our spot has goofy wind shifts. I honestly don't know how we could get a no B.S. accuracy measurement. When you get your windage hold figured.... the 5R will hit an IPSC gong 4 or 5 times in a row.
But, man.... it gets hard to call every hit. Some days you can hear them and some not. And dirt kick up on miss doesn't always happen. We sometimes are uncertain of a hit/miss. That 223 doesn't thump the gong very hard at that distance. But as often as we've shot it, I can say that those SMKs go through transonic pretty damned well.
Got the Crimp test done. I cleaned the barrel on the 5R because God only knows when it was cleaned last. Groups shot at 100 yards with 5mph left to right wind. Folding table.
5 or 6 round spotter group using the ammo can loose packed 77s I load for Pappabear. Shot 1 was the flyer on the clean barrel to I tossed it.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/crimptest1_zpsb019edbf.jpg
Next was the 10 crimped rounds of hand selected brass of the same head stamp. Winchester 5.56 once fired brass.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/crimptest2_zpsf0ff15c1.jpg
And finally NO CRIMP on the case necks.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/crimptest3_zpsbde62f6c.jpg
Thanks for your work Mark.
The one thing that I've found once again is that when we hand sort by headstamp, for whatever reason, our groups aren't as good as just grabbing a handful of mixed brass and shooting.
Not crimping hurt our load dramatically. Results may vary for other brass prep processes... but for me, the FCD stays. And Chrono results were too unreliable to post. They looked ridiculous, and when I shot my magneto speed in conjunction with the chrono, the SD was 1/2 that of the sky screen chrono.
The one thing that I've found once again is that when we hand sort by headstamp, for whatever reason, our groups aren't as good as just grabbing a handful of mixed brass and shooting.
Not crimping hurt our load dramatically. Results may vary for other brass prep processes... but for me, the FCD stays. And Chrono results were too unreliable to post. They looked ridiculous, and when I shot my magneto speed in conjunction with the chrono, the SD was 1/2 that of the sky screen chrono.
Mark,
Thanks for posting your results. I would submit that this test is eerily similar to one I did a few years back and played with neck tension tuning by way of bushing dies. I ended up concluding that the 223 / 556 match ammo liked tighter necks (increased necl tension n/ smaller bushing). Clearly you can achieve this by way of the FCD. Great stuff and thanks for taking the time - proves there far more than one way to skin a cat.
Definitely... There are so many variables that could make these results unique to my ammo. I was really willing to ditch the FCD, but it looks like it makes a positive difference.
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