View Full Version : If I were buying a new AR today...
...I'd buy a Noveske N4 Recce. Doubly so if it was my first AR.
I guess because I compiled a list of features into a chart there are people that assume I know what I'm talking about and I get PMs and emails fairly regularly from people that want to know what they should buy. I must admit, I find this somewhat odd as I'm just a general contractor that likes to shoot and train, and not a cop or a soldier with any actual reliance on a firearm day to day. But, since I keep getting asked, I thought I'd put my opinions in one place.
first of all, let me say that the Colt 6920 is still the Alpha and the Omega. You just can't go wrong with one. I know of almost no one that has purchased a 6920 and later wished they had purchased anything else. However, I do think that there are other, and maybe even better, options.
The rifle that I keep pointing almost all first-time buyers to is the N4 Light Recce Basic 16" (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n4lrb&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=) for $1,425.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/imimg/n4lrb_1d.jpg
Let me be very up front as say that I do so without having actually even seen one first hand (although I've seen a couple of the 14.5" versions). I have, however, seen a ton of Noveske's work and am smart enough to defer to guys who know a lot more about these things than I do, and Noveske is pretty well universally respected by almost anyone that knows anything in the industry.
I suggest the Recce Basic for a variety of reasons. First of all is the price. Clyde Armory (https://www.policeguns.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=16_236&products_id=5635&osCsid=2d035b117c68587b5f1bf062cda9c8a5) is currently taking backorders on the Colt 6920 at $1,350 (and if you're going to buy a Colt, you'd be hard pressed to find better vendor). Basically for $75 more you get the N4 with a midlength gas system and a barrel with an improved, and more reasonable, profile as well as thicker and heavier-duty chrome lining. The Colt will come with a carry handle, A2 pistol grip, and Colt M4 stock while the Noveske comes with a Troy rear sight, Tango Down pistol grip, and Vltor stock. These items are essentially a wash as genuine Colt parts can fetch a premium and be sold on the used market to fund the other aftermarket parts that come with the N4. Basically what you save in this regard is time and hassle. Additionally, the N4 can be had with Magpul products in place of the TD and Vltor if you so choose (there may be a bit of a premium involved however). The midlength gas system of the N4 gives you a lighter recoil pulse, less wear on the internal parts, and the possibility of more railed real-estate should one choose to go that route but maintain the stock FSB.
So why not choose the N4 Light Recce Low-Profile 16" (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n4lr&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=) for $1975 or the N4 Light Recce Basic with VIS (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n4lrbvis&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=) for $2105? Mostly because if you're a first-time buyer you may not know what rail you want, if you want one at all. I think it's more important for a first-time buyer to get a good, solid, basic, functional rifle and get out there and shoot it before we get too carried away with bells and whistles. If you decide you want a light there are other ways to attach it in the short term and there are alternate sling-mounting possibilities to work around not having the free-float rail. If, however, you do know that you want a rail then the SWS unit that comes with the Low-Profile is more than serviceable. I would put forth the one caveat that the QD bushbutton swivels built in to the rail are NOT rotation limited. This is a bigger deal for some than for others, but buyers should be aware of it. If Noveske/SWS were to add that feature I would certainly be much happier my self. I would also opt for the Vltor Emod stock upgrade for now, and the Magpul UBR when it becomes available.
So why not one of the 14.5" barreled versions like the N4 Light Carbine, Basic (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n4lcb&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=) for $1,375, or the N4 Light Carbine, Low Profile (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n4lclp&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=) for $1,895, or the N4 Light Carbine, Low Profile, with VIS (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n4lclpvis&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=) for $2,104, or the N4 Light Carbine, Basic, with VIS (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n4lcbvis&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=) for $1,844? The biggest reason is limitations. by choosing one of the 14.5" models you are forced to choose between permanently attaching the muzzle device or having the complete rifle registered as an SBR (which, as I understand it, Noveske is willing to help with which is a very nice feature and which keeps you from having to engrave your information on the receiver). In permanently attaching the muzzle device you limit your options as to rails and other accessories. Yes, the device can be removed by a competent 'smith and things can be changed out, but I'm not a fan of any modification that requires me to send the rifle or upper out to reverse or rectify. Registering the rifle as an SBR is certainly feasible but many people feel that spending the extra $200 tax to do so isn't worth it to only save 1.5" of barrel length.
Obviously if you are a more experienced AR owner/shooter then you may know for certain what rails and accessories you like, in which case permanently attaching the muzzle device may not be such a big issue. And, even if you just go with the Noveske/SWS rail, you could certainly do a whole hell of a lot worse. For this reason, I think that buying the 14.5" would make a GREAT second AR to complement and supplement the 16" Recce version.
Which brings us to progression. I generally tell people to pick up an N4 Recce and stick an Aimpoint M4S in a Larue mount (http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=226) for $702 on top of it. I haven't gotten to run the new "S" version of the optic yet but it does appear to put the control knob in a more user-friendly location. If you feel that you need magnification then add a Aimpoint 3x Magnifier in Larue pivot mount (http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=131). This combo, with or without the magnifier, will more than serve virtually any user for virtually any endeavor. If cost is an issue, the Aimpoint C3 can be found in package deals with Larue and ADM mounts for $450+/-. The C3 gives up battery life, waterproof depth, night vision settings, and doesn't have the improved switching of the M4 but is more than adequate for almost all comers and offers up $250 in savings.
When the time comes that you want a second AR, and you have your rail opinions sorted out, I would go with the N4 Light Carbine, Low Profile (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n4lclp&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=) for $1,895 (assuming you like the SWS rail). I would choose to have the AAC M42008 51 tooth 3-prong flash suppressor permanently attached. This will allow you to attach the excellent Advanced Armament M42000 sound suppressor to the firearm if you so choose. I would opt for the Emod version of the Vltor stock on the 14.5" and I would move the Aimpoint M4 to this rifle. I would then add either a 1-4x variable optic or a Compact ACOG in 3x to the 16" gun and relegate it for longer-range use while the 14.5" would become my "general purpose" rifle.
Finally, hopefully, Noveske will eventually be coming out with a 10.5" version of their N4 Carbine. While it doesn't exist now, I'm holding out hope. When (if?) this barrel length surfaces I would opt for a 9" SWS rail and the same AAC flash hider mount as well as go ahead and pick up the M42008 at this time with the intention of running the 10.5" suppressed the majority of the time. I would opt for the Magpul CTR stock on the short gun as well, and top it off with an Aimpoint T-1 in Larue mount (http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=149) for $640. The H-1 would serve just as well and should save approximately $100.
I would venture to say that with these three rifles, set up this way, one would be sufficiently outfitted for whatever manner of class/match/situation one could find oneself in.
At least until the Masada/ACR comes out!:D
Obviously, all of the above is, or can be, very expensive. The very first step of the N4 Light Recce Basic 16" is $1,425 and then I tell you to add the Aimpoint for $700 more. And that doesn't even get you extra mags, ammo, a light, a sling, etc! With the above recommendation you could be out $3k real damn quick before you ever pull the trigger! So what to do on a budget?
I've been steering a whole slew of people towards the S&W M&P15. I'm not sold on the "T" models that come with the rails, but the M&P15 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=44930&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=33803&isFirearm=Y) with carry handle (that can be cut down into a fixed BUIS for free), or the M&P15A (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=44933&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=33803&isFirearm=Y) that comes with the excellent Troy flip-up rear BUIS, can generally be found on www.gunsamerica.com for between $900 and $1,000. What you're giving up by saving that $400-$500 vs. the Noveske is the barrel, first and foremost. There are other differences, but the barrel is the big one. The S&W is an M4 profile (skinny under the handguards, notch in front of FSB for grenade launcher mount, etc.) which may not be the most practical for all users but is certainly serviceable. The S&W barrel also isn't made of the same quality steel as the Noveske, doesn't have the same chrome lining (although it is chrome lined), and has a standard carbine-length gas system vs. the mid-length of the Noveske Recce N4. The Noveske is also 1:7 rifling vs. the 1:9 of the S&W.
Add to that basic S&W M&P15 and Aimpoint C3 in a Larue or ADM mount for $450, and you have yourself one hell of a functional rifle for $1500.
The other thing that the S&W has going for it is that it can be found at almost any gun shop that stocks black rifles, and can certainly be found at any Gun Show. You may pay more to a local dealer, but for some people that is worth not having to deal with the hassle of mail order firearms and the local dealer transfer costs.
Nothing wrong with this, but I don't know what this offers over something like a Denny's Operator build. You could probablys ave a couple hundred going that route. You give up the extra thick chrome lining, but I'm not sure it's worth that much extra.
Finally are the new up-and-comers in the AR market. Companies like ADS (especially when purchased from G&R Tactical (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7297)) are offering many of the most desirable features for under $900.
The new Charles Daly (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13937&highlight=daly) is also looking to be a very promising player in the AR market and should be offering virtually all of the features that most users find desirable. As many gun shops carry Daly handguns it should be only a matter of time before their new ARs are found on shelves all over the country.
Nothing wrong with this, but I don't know what this offers over something like a Denny's Operator build. You could probablys ave a couple hundred going that route. You give up the extra thick chrome lining, but I'm not sure it's worth that much extra.
Which is, of course, your opinion.
I would pick the Noveske every single time.
I don't see complete guns anywhere on Denny's Site (http://global-tactical.com/index.asp).
Does anyone know how much a N4 Recce upper like the one pictured above would cost?
Does anyone know how much a N4 Recce upper like the one pictured above would cost?
N4 Light Recce Basic 16" Upper (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=un4lrb&cat=48&page=1&search=&since=&status=)? $915
http://noveskerifleworks.com/imimg/un4lrb_1d.jpg
Rob, thank you for your post. As a first time buyer, I really wanted a Noveske, but couldn't justify the price to myself as a casual shooter. This internal argument also applies to the Ferrari I want and the Ford I drive. :)
I ended up with a M&P15A and your post makes me feel better about my choice; although, I felt pretty darned good anyway since I got it at a local distributor for $775 including sales tax and after the rebate. The difference in price between it and a N4 will go into an optic, ammo, mags, and a few change outs like the stock, grip and handguard.
Which is, of course, your opinion.
I would pick the Noveske every single time.
I don't see complete guns anywhere on Denny's Site (http://global-tactical.com/index.asp).
Agreed. But what what really is a complete gun? It's just a compilation of parts, and Denny does exactly what Noveske does, he assembles parts from other mfg's. Denny can build you whatever you want, you order a la carte and he charges you for parts + assembly.
Noveske, I'm assuming, chambers his barrels then sends them out to get chromed, but of that I'm not entirely sure. Are you aware of anything else Noveske manufactures? I thought his uppers and lower receivers were sourced outside, his BCGs are sourced outside, etc. I guess he makes his own gas blocks. Anything else?
Denny's Operators are sourced from Mike Rock. I don't think Denny does any chamber work. I could be wrong.
Not knocking Noveske in the slightest -- he builds great stuff. Like most things in life, there are so many varaiables that what may be best for someone isn't for someone else.
If you get away from the complete gun argument then you open yourself up to all sorts of mayhem and foolishness, and frankly as a first-time buyer I'd always steer someone towards a complete gun.
What would a GTS complete Operator build cost as compared to, but identically accessorized as, a N4 Recce Basic?
ETA, quick breakdown of parts alone (figure Denny eats his labor to make the markup on the parts)
Lower $150
LPK $70
Grip $40
Extension $45
Stock $100
Upper $100
Barrel $350 (GTS Operator Barrel (http://global-tactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=471))
BCG $130
BUIS $140
Handguard $40
CH $20
FH $50
$1,235
Figure $200 FET for the complete firearm and you're neck and neck.
I just purchased the N4 Light Recce Basic based on a week of reading this informative forum. Now I see this thread and it's nice to see someone else with more experience in the subject validating the reasons why I picked the Noveske N4 Light Recce Basic.
Does anyone know if Noveske sells complete lower receivers?
Picked up a low profile Recce as my first AR recently. I'm very pleased with the weapon and would recommend it to anybody looking for a quality, accurate, reliable rifle.
Does anyone know if Noveske sells complete lower receivers?
They aren't listed on their site. I was trying to pick up one or two stripped lowers from Grant but he ran out. I'm on the list for when then come in. I'm hoping they surface about the same time as the Geissele trigger as I think it would make a fine combination.
Well, now I want one too!
The Archangel
05-12-08, 14:05
Rob,
Thanks for taking the time to write up such a detailed post to help other forum members. I only have one question on your comment about the Aimpoint M4... why did you choose to recommend this optic, over the T1/LT? I keep going back and forth between the two myself, but I lean more towards the T1/LT.
So how do LMT's rifles compare, since they seem to have a pretty good rep and you can spend far less than on an N4.
Rob,
Thanks for taking the time to write up such a detailed post to help other forum members. I only have one question on your comment about the Aimpoint M4... why did you choose to recommend this optic, over the T1/LT? I keep going back and forth between the two myself, but I lean more towards the T1/LT.
A couple of reasons.
If you look at the Aimpoint Comparison Chart thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=10241) you can see the differences in the optics at a glance.
First is battery size and battery life. I love the fact that the M4 takes the standard AA. It also stretches that battery to almost twice the life of the T-1. Yes, even 44k hours is an insanely long amount of time, but should the battery itself fail for any reason I like that the M4 takes such a common size.
Second is the MOA. I think that for a rifle with a longer effective range, and one that may potentially get used with a magnifier, the 2 MOA is a better option.
Finally, and this info isn't on the chart but really should be, is tube diameter. The larger tube is simply more forgiving of a wider range of head positions.
Ordinarily I'm all about weight savings, but I personally find that the above makes the added weight of the M4 worthwhile on a larger gun. Note that I did mention I would use the T-1 on an SBR, and I think the Micros really shine (other than for use on low sight axis guns) when weight savings and low profile are more readily noticed.
So how do LMT's rifles compare, since they seem to have a pretty good rep and you can spend far less than on an N4.
How much is "far less"?
A complete LMT M4 will run you [rl=http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=HGSTD16]$1250[/url] and it doesn't come with any BUIS. Add in the Troy that the Noveske comes with and it's a $1375 rifle. All of a sudden the Noveske is only a $50 premium, and I personally believe the mid-length gas system and improved barrel steel & chrome lining to be worth far more than $50.
If you get away from the complete gun argument then you open yourself up to all sorts of mayhem and foolishness....
Rob, thanks for offering your thoughts and especially thanks for the above comment!
Buying a complete rifle is not an option in my state. I've invested quite a bit of time trying to avoid buying a given item multiple times until I get it right. Not quite ready just yet though....
Your thoughts on "What about the next one?" are appreciated. (There are two stripped lowers with consecutive SNs in my safe.) Is there really enough functional difference between a 14.5 and 16 to make it worth having one of each? Would I be losing out much by setting up 2 16s with say a Magpul CTR and Aimpoint Micro on one and an ACOG x3 and EMOD on the other?
I'm thinking the fun factor would be higher to have two different barrel lengths (and I really like the looks of 14.5 middies) but my practical side says there ain't that much difference between them and it's better to just double up.
I would wind up with two anyway. My thoughts are that if I'm going to have two (call it a primary and a backup) I'd prefer to have two that are slightly different and may be better suited for certain tasks but can each perform the other's task in a pinch rather than two identical rifles.
I would see the 14.5" as a little lighter, a little more compact, a little handier, etc. while the 16" might be a little heavier, a little less maneuverable, but having a little more reach due to the extra barrel length and magnified optics.
Ideally what I'd really love to see is the 51-tooth AAC mount on the 16" as well as a Noveske adjustable gas block that would allow you to shut the gas off completely.
Err, what's an AAC mount and why would you want to shut off the gas system completely?
Damn, and I just bought a 6920 to update my AR into the 21st century.
The Noveske website did not list a weight for the N4 Light Recce Basic 16". How heavy is it?
thanks
I was a first time AR buyer and after getting some good advice from Templar and having him direct me to this site where I got more, I went with Noveske:
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/3065/1000755cf8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
I went with the N4 light carbine basic, because I knew I wanted the smallest, lightest, rifle I could get from Noveske without going to a SBR. I also knew that I wanted to keep this rifle simple. I shot it Fri and Sat and I'm very impressed...I gave a mini-review in another thread. I'm already thinking about the next one.
If you get away from the complete gun argument then you open yourself up to all sorts of mayhem and foolishness, and frankly as a first-time buyer I'd always steer someone towards a complete gun.
Rob, thanks for offering your thoughts and especially thanks for the above comment!
Only applies if you are relying on a builder that lacks skills. There are several reputable builders that use quality components, and in the end build excellent weapons. Again, like all things in life, this one of those "it depends" areas. An informed buyer can go to a capable builder and buy with confidence. After all, that's what all of even the better builders are essentially, talented armorers who pay attention to the details.
How much is "far less"?
A complete LMT M4 will run you [rl=http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=HGSTD16]$1250[/url] and it doesn't come with any BUIS. Add in the Troy that the Noveske comes with and it's a $1375 rifle. All of a sudden the Noveske is only a $50 premium, and I personally believe the mid-length gas system and improved barrel steel & chrome lining to be worth far more than $50.
Well here are the prices I got off the LMT site:
Upper w/ handguards: $523.95
Defender Lower w/ collapsible stock $330.00
BUIS: $119.00
BCG and Charging handle: $151.95
Total: $1124.90
with out BUIS$ 1005.90
Sooooooo basically for a basic (and I mean basic) rifle you are looking at saving just over $250.00. Now my question for you is, is the improved barrel steel worth it? Also I though LMT barrels are chrome lined as well.
What would a GTS complete Operator build cost as compared to, but identically accessorized as, a N4 Recce Basic?
ETA, quick breakdown of parts alone (figure Denny eats his labor to make the markup on the parts)
Lower $150
LPK $70
Grip $40
Extension $45
Stock $100
Upper $100
Barrel $350 (GTS Operator Barrel (http://global-tactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=471))
BCG $130
BUIS $140
Handguard $40
CH $20
FH $50
$1,235
Figure $200 FET for the complete firearm and you're neck and neck.
A bit off on some of the prices. Lowers run less, TD grip runs less, LPK a bit less. Rcvr extension runs a bit more, so that may be a wash. Plus, if you buy lower separate from upper, you avoid the FET.
Again, not knocking Noveske in the slightest. I just think there are options out there providing comparable "effective" quality (i.e., I don't care if Noveske is 1/4 MOA better off of a bench) at less cost. Plus you get the option of a myriad of grip/stock/muzzle device/etc. options which allow you to customize your weapon. Maybe Noveske offers the same options, not sure if his packages are pretty much locked or if you have a "order off the menu" pick list option.
I just don't see buying bits and pieces and trying to suss out which grip or stock as a viable option for a first time buyer. Yes, there are some that will spend a sufficient amount of time on the interweb looking for "best" and may stumble upon someone like Denny to build them their dream gun. However, if you buy the gun complete you're going to wind up with the FET, and the price difference will be negligible.
Err, what's an AAC mount and why would you want to shut off the gas system completely?
An "AAC mount" is the 51-tooth mount for the 2008 model of the Advanced Armament M4-2000 (http://advancedarmament.com/m4_2000.asp) 5.56 silencer.
Shutting off the gas system should virtually eliminate blow-back through the action of the gun when shooting suppressed, albeit limiting you to single-shot (or effectively a bolt action) and having to operate the charging handle after each round. The Noveske Switchblock is already designed to have a "suppressed" and "unsupressed" setting, in addition to the "off", which should reduce blowback as well.
Hey rob_s on the AAC suppressor why the 51 tooth over the 18 tooth. I would think the bigger tooth model would get better engagement if fouling was present. Also is the new blackout a better mount\flash hider then the phantom thx.
The 51 tooth is what they're using on the '08 models. The 18 tooth is the older version for the '07 and previous. As I understand it the '08 models incorporate a lock to help keep the suppressor from counter-rotating.
The Blackout 3-prong design is supposed to be better at suppressing flash than the phantom version but I have not seen them fired side-by-side at night and only have pictures posted here and elsewhere by rslivers. I believe he had a hand in the Blackout design though so I would take the results with a grain of salt.
If you are a member at silencertalk.com, Fletcher from AAC has posted a good resource on the various mounts here (http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22125). If you aren't a member, it's worth joining up.
hey, thanks for the headsup on the switchblock. just what i've been looking for
Rob:
Would you pick the N4 Recce over the KAC SR-15 that you had for T&E? I want a midlength and have narrowed it down to one those two.
Rob:
Would you pick the N4 Recce over the KAC SR-15 that you had for T&E? I want a midlength and have narrowed it down to one those two.
That's a tough call. The KAC I had was a T&E early, or pre, production gun. I can't completely say with certainty that the one I had was the same as what will be available from KAC. I will say that I don't think you can go wrong either way. Comparing the SR15 that I had to N4s that I have seen I believe that the KAC had the better trigger (it's a two stage) while the Noveske has the better barrel/accuracy. From an engineering standpoint I also like the new bolt design from KAC, but from a practical standpoint I'm not thrilled with the idea of proprietary parts.
In the short term I imagine that the SR15 will also command a bit of a premium and I suspect that whatever makes it to market in the next 6 months or so will probably retail for $2,200 or more. If the Geissele non-adjustable triggers ever surface in any steady supply you could add one of those to the N4 and they are only $150.
Again though, I don't think you could really go wrong either way, and I certainly wouldn't complain if either one landed on my doorstep for free. :D
Hey thanks for the reply. I am not a member at silencertalk.com because I don't have a non yahoo/hotmail type account but i lurk there often. I have actually seen that post that you linked in the AAC forum there were pictures of the different types but no reason why they were different. On the flash hider I would rather not have the open prongs so if the functioned the same I would go phantom Thx.
The Noveske website did not list a weight for the N4 Light Recce Basic 16". How heavy is it?
thanks
Ed, my 14.5" N4 basic build weighs in at 6 lb 13.5 oz (N4 basic upper over Noveske lower w/A2 grip, standard M4 buttstock, H buffer, LaRue BUIS, and Surefire 556 compensator). My 6920 weighs in at 6 lb 14.7 oz (A2 grip, standard M4 buttstock, H2 buffer, LaRue BUIS, and DNTC compensator). If I had to guess, I'd say the 16" recce will hover right around 7 lbs
http://mysite.verizon.net/tlinderman/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/noveske_retouch.jpg
hope that helps with a ballpark weight...
I have been doing my research to make my first AR buy. At first I was leaning toward ADS middy with DD lite rail from Grant. Then I started reading about the N4 and the quality of their barrels and the switch block so I thought pay a little more and have them add the DD rail. Then I learned that they will no longer be adding outside parts. Then I realized that since Grant is a Noveske dealer he could build me a quality middy upper with a N4 barrel, DD lite rail, BCG of my choice, and AAC 51 tooth Phantom flash hider. When I get the quote from Grant I am sure that it would be cheaper then the same type setup from Noveske :cool: .
Parabellum9x19mm
05-13-08, 14:40
Well here are the prices I got off the LMT site:
Upper w/ handguards: $523.95
Defender Lower w/ collapsible stock $330.00
BUIS: $119.00
BCG and Charging handle: $151.95
Total: $1124.90
with out BUIS$ 1005.90
Sooooooo basically for a basic (and I mean basic) rifle you are looking at saving just over $250.00. Now my question for you is, is the improved barrel steel worth it? Also I though LMT barrels are chrome lined as well.
improved barrel steel, twice the thickness of chrome lining, tango down battle grip, smith vortex (or AAC or surefire) muzzle device, Vltor stock, etc.....this has all been hashed out already in this thread....
the LMT is seeming more "basic" to me.
i like my LMT 16" M4 but honestly at this point, i think Noveske is the better value. ....and i'm just buying the uppers. if i was buying complete weapons Noveske would be an even better value compared to LMT....but i prefer to configure the lowers the way i want....even if i don't really save any money.
and i agree with rob_s....the barrel is totally worth it to me. a lot of the reason why people buy Noveske uppers and rifles is because of the quality of their barrels.
That's a tough call. The KAC I had was a T&E early, or pre, production gun. I can't completely say with certainty that the one I had was the same as what will be available from KAC. I will say that I don't think you can go wrong either way. Comparing the SR15 that I had to N4s that I have seen I believe that the KAC had the better trigger (it's a two stage) while the Noveske has the better barrel/accuracy. From an engineering standpoint I also like the new bolt design from KAC, but from a practical standpoint I'm not thrilled with the idea of proprietary parts.
In the short term I imagine that the SR15 will also command a bit of a premium and I suspect that whatever makes it to market in the next 6 months or so will probably retail for $2,200 or more. If the Geissele non-adjustable triggers ever surface in any steady supply you could add one of those to the N4 and they are only $150.
Again though, I don't think you could really go wrong either way, and I certainly wouldn't complain if either one landed on my doorstep for free. :D
The thing I like about the N4 is you can get it with a CTR stock and MIAD grip and it comes with an M4-2000 mount. I'm actually looking at the N4 Basic because I want to add a rail later.
So why not choose the N4 Light Recce Low-Profile 16" (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n4lr&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=) for $1975 or the N4 Light Recce Basic with VIS (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n4lrbvis&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=) for $2105? Mostly because if you're a first-time buyer you may not know what rail you want, if you want one at all....If you decide you want a light there are other ways to attach it in the short term and there are alternate sling-mounting possibilities to work around not having the free-float rail. If, however, you do know that you want a rail then the SWS unit that comes with the Low-Profile is more than serviceable.
Great info, thanks for posting! I'm looking at the N4 Light Recce Low-Profile and the VTAC/Noveske Combat Carbine (either 14.5 or 16 not sure on that yet) but wanted some opinions on the basic differences here from those in the know.
My thoughts are in line with keeping it simple and adding rail sections for lights, grips, etc as I need to/want to...hence the VTAC. If I don't want to add anything then it is lighter and still a Noveske. :D
Just trying to evaluate all the options and this thread is a great one really making me think about the choices.
Well my first AR is coming together :D .
N4 Recce Basic upper is on the way -- I was expecting a 3-week wait but they got one out the door the day after I placed the order.
I found a used A2 stock on TOS a couple of hours after getting off the phone with Noveske. Already had a Stag lower and LPK that should serve. Need to do some more research on lower parts kits, though -- bought that one long before finding this site.
If this set-up seems to work for me I'll probably put a G2 light on it and call it good for a while. Time to stock up on ammo and schedule some training.
ETA Thinking Vickers sling but not sure how I'll attach it.
Guys,
How do you pronounce Noveske?
"No-vesk"?
No-vesk-eee?
Parabellum9x19mm
05-17-08, 14:37
AFAIK, the second one.
noh-ves-ski
Here's another one...how do you pronounce 'Recce'?
Parabellum9x19mm
05-17-08, 19:34
recky
That's a tough call. The KAC I had was a T&E early, or pre, production gun. I can't completely say with certainty that the one I had was the same as what will be available from KAC. I will say that I don't think you can go wrong either way. Comparing the SR15 that I had to N4s that I have seen I believe that the KAC had the better trigger (it's a two stage) while the Noveske has the better barrel/accuracy. From an engineering standpoint I also like the new bolt design from KAC, but from a practical standpoint I'm not thrilled with the idea of proprietary parts.
In the short term I imagine that the SR15 will also command a bit of a premium and I suspect that whatever makes it to market in the next 6 months or so will probably retail for $2,200 or more. If the Geissele non-adjustable triggers ever surface in any steady supply you could add one of those to the N4 and they are only $150.
Again though, I don't think you could really go wrong either way, and I certainly wouldn't complain if either one landed on my doorstep for free. :D
My first AR was an SR-15 Match. I did a lot of looking and had wanted an SR for a long time and I wasn't sure if I was going to be buying any more AR's. It's always tough trying to get everything you want out of one weapon but I think I was able to do it with the Knight's. I have yet to shoot the SR but it will fit the purpose of what I bought it for (varmint). I could have spent way less but I wanted something different (is kind of like owning a TVR) and the budget allowed. I wouldn't do it any differently if I had a chance to do it over again.
But since then I went the total opposite direction and put together a standard A2 using an LRB lower and a new A2 Colt upper. This will be my sons first AR, he just doesn't know it yet.
But going back to the original post on the thread. If I were looking for that particular style (for a first purchase) then the N4 Light / Recce would be an excellent first AR. I might just have to order up an N4 Light Carbine Low Profile upper :). The more I look at it the more I think I need one. The SR-15 E3 is still peaking my interest and on the radar. Maybe after I make a few more bucks :( .
Great thread. I've just been through the research process for my first GBR and this site's been invaluable. Got the N4 Light Recce Basic 16" Upper on the way, to go with an LMT lower.
bootfoot
Realistically... the majority of first time buyers are NOT gonna drop $1500 on there first AR. The few that do are not in the majority....
and to be quite honest.. I see no reason to spend that kinda of coin on a Noveske when I can get a LMT lower and there upper and have a perfectly serviceable gun.
Realistically... the majority of first time buyers are NOT gonna drop $1500 on there first AR. The few that do are not in the majority....
and to be quite honest.. I see no reason to spend that kinda of coin on a Noveske when I can get a LMT lower and there upper and have a perfectly serviceable gun.
Oh shit, now look what you dun. All hell's about to break loose........;)
I'm outraged! Outraged, I say!
The Noveske upper I bought is far superior to anything bearing the LMT name.
It has extra chrome in the barrel!
Extra chrome, sir!
Harrumph,
bootfoot
(winkie thing indicating jocular reponse)
There is, obviously, nothing wrong with purchasing an LMT in pieces and slapping it together for $1k. The point of this thread was complete firearms. I find more guys willing to shell out $1500 (it's really more like $1400, but whatever) than are willing to buy in pieces for whatever reason.
Of course, with ADS and Charles Daly making carbines that are, at least on paper, equal to or superior to an LMT in parts, one has to wonder why you would bother with the LMT. (See post #4 in this thread)
Don't forget that you can also buy the N4 Light Recce Basic 16" Upper (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=un4lrb&cat=48&page=1&search=&since=&status=) for $900, if you're more into popping the upper and lower together, which is only $100 more than a similarly equipped LMT upper. Stick it on a Spike's lower for $265 if you're really worried about saving money.
I'm outraged! Outraged, I say!
The Noveske upper I bought is far superior to anything bearing the LMT name.
It has extra chrome in the barrel!
Extra chrome, sir!
Harrumph,
bootfoot
(winkie thing indicating jocular reponse)
Now that is funny.
Seriously though, what does the added chrome....ummmm add?
Realistically.... the majority (Average) AR owner is gonna
plunk down the cash on a Bushmaster or DPMS that they can get off the rack at there local Gander Mt,etc and never know the difference as they are not going to fire much thru it to ever find out want a small minority of us know.
And if it's just going to be a fun toy, hobby gun.. they will most likely get one that works fairly well and we will see them chime in on TOS on the weekly "What's Wrong with DPMS? " thread telling us there's works great...
And I consider myself to be reasonably educated on the AR system, and I would never drop that kind of coin on a Noveske.......
Army Chief
05-18-08, 16:47
Not negating anyone's argument, but personally, I can't afford not to buy the best the first time around.
Chief
Realistically.... the majority (Average) AR owner is gonna
plunk down the cash on a Bushmaster or DPMS that they can get off the rack at there local Gander Mt,etc and never know the difference as they are not going to fire much thru it to ever find out want a small minority of us know.
And if it's just going to be a fun toy, hobby gun.. they will most likely get one that works fairly well and we will see them chime in on TOS on the weekly "What's Wrong with DPMS? " thread telling us there's works great...
Agreed. But chances are they're not going to be asking my opinion either.
And I consider myself to be reasonably educated on the AR system, and I would never drop that kind of coin on a Noveske.......
I still don't see where there's all this "that kind of coin" business. $100 more if bought as a separate upper to put on an LMT lower, and less if you don't bother with an LMT lower (most of what you want/need is in the upper). I wouldn't drop "that kind of coin" on an LMT lower. ;)
Re-read the first page. My first choice would be for the Noveske. When taken for what it is it really isn't that much more than any other similarly equipped rifle, and when considering that there's an FET included in there for it being a complete gun it's REALLY not that much more. But, if one doesn't have the means for a Noveske, or doesn't think they'll appreciate the added features, or doesn't think the added features are worth it, there's other suggestions on the first page of this thread as well.
Only applies if you are relying on a builder that lacks skills. There are several reputable builders that use quality components, and in the end build excellent weapons. Again, like all things in life, this one of those "it depends" areas. An informed buyer can go to a capable builder and buy with confidence. After all, that's what all of even the better builders are essentially, talented armorers who pay attention to the details.
Well, I will add this into the Denny/Noveske argument.
AFAIK, Denny offers just about anything you want and you have to make all the decisions yourself, don't you?
The point I think Rob was trying to make was if you are a noob and you want a good opinion on a complete rifle, Noveske is a good choice. I don't care if you can get all the parts for a complete rifle from Denny, the point is you can pick a "rifle" with good parts and not have to know any more than one thing- Noveske. A new person doesn't have to write down everything and wonder if they've got it all and will get everything they need to put together a complete rifle.
Besides, if you want to get into other "builders" I can think of a few that I'd prefer over Denny anyway. Steve at ADCO comes to mind...
Well, I will add this into the Denny/Noveske argument.
AFAIK, Denny offers just about anything you want and you have to make all the decisions yourself, don't you?
The point I think Rob was trying to make was if you are a noob and you want a good opinion on a complete rifle, Noveske is a good choice. I don't care if you can get all the parts for a complete rifle from Denny, the point is you can pick a "rifle" with good parts and not have to know any more than one thing- Noveske. A new person doesn't have to write down everything and wonder if they've got it all and will get everything they need to put together a complete rifle.
Besides, if you want to get into other "builders" I can think of a few that I'd prefer over Denny anyway. Steve at ADCO comes to mind...
I'm not knocking Noveske in the slightest. My opening statement was a first time buyer can get a great weapon at a cost slightly below what Noveske charges. We are really debating at the margins here.
If a first time buyer has no knowledge about the platform going in, he's not going to know anything about ADCO, or Noveske, or Denny's, or anyone else unless he lives in that area or has a acquaintance make a recommendation. The vast majority of first time buyers are going to go into their regular local fun store and buy whatever that dealer recomemnds based on what he stocks. Only if you hang out here or some other sites, and really study for awhile, are you going to get a sense of what else is available besides your standard BM, RRA, whatever.
I am curious about why you rate ADCO above Denny's. I don't have any first hand experience that suggest Denny's is any better or worse, but I'm just curious why you formed that opinion.
I rate ADCO above Denny's because I've gotten way better service from Steve.
That's how.
I was simply responding to your initial comments, not a bottom line.
I've given this a bit more thought since making my last post. Looking back and rethinking the theory for myself and what might not be for others, ok.
I think I would go for the Noveske, probably an N4 Light Recce, 14.5" Afghan , or their VTAC offering. They are very close in money and are available off the shelf with no real wait time. There are none of decisions to make that can drive a guy crazy when buying or building thier first rifle or two. No wondering what barrel, gas system, blocks, rails, BCG's, or anything. Just click and order. Simple, no brainer.
There are other builders out there that have simular combinations, so to a point it comes down to preference and what you are getting for the money. Will it fit your needs or exceed them and do you have the budget?
I wish Knight's was on the ball and offered uppers for sale but they seem to have a hard enough time keeping up with the civilian side of the house as government contracts have them swamped. To bad because I'd buy an upper to have as a spare to my SR in a heart beat.
my .02¢, probably not really worth it but...........................
Does this Noveske complete rifle come with their logo placed over the lower and upper seam, kind of matching them together?
Does this Noveske complete rifle come with their logo placed over the lower and upper seam, kind of matching them together?
It should.
I too am getting ready to place my order for a 16" N4. Just am tossing up between the low profile or VIS. Any thoughts ?
Thanks
I'm a big fan of the SWS rail that the low profile comes with. It's light, sturdy, fits great and looks mono enough for me. Plus it was the Noveske name/logo, what more could you want! ;)
So pertaining to the N4 Light Recce Basic 16" that I am leaning towards.
Which is the better "flash hider" They list 5 different ones for the same cost.
This will be my first AR for a while...
So pertaining to the N4 Light Recce Basic 16" that I am leaning towards.
Which is the better "flash hider" They list 5 different ones for the same cost.
This will be my first AR for a while...
I like what I see in photo tests of the AAC Blackout non-mount. It's most likely what I'll be ordering on mine.
I like what I see in photo tests of the AAC Blackout non-mount. It's most likely what I'll be ordering on mine.
OK, thanks for the info, so being a "non" mount, I am still ok not having to register it in NC b/c the barrel is 16" right?
B/C if I have to register it why not get the N4 Carbine Basic.
Now that is funny.
Seriously though, what does the added chrome....ummmm add?
Durability is the claim. It seems to make sense in theory. Plus, there's the bling factor. I know that you can't see it, but that just makes it better. Stealth bling.
Seriously, this thread has hit on just about all the thought processes I've been through. I was fortunate enough to get in contact with some guys with practical experience. My first thought was a Stag because I'm a lefty. One of those guys was, too (a lefty, not a Stag), and he just basically said, "It ain't that big a deal" and mentioned the "using someone else's weapon" factor. My wife's right-handed. I can adjust way easier than she can. So, the Stag's off the list.
Then I dang near bought a Smith M&P. I think I just wasn't ready to turn loose of any money yet. About that time I was directed to this place and the infamous chart. Much reading ensued.
Where I ended up was that Noveske upper and LMT SOPMOD lower (L7E2 from G&R). I think I was about $230 under the price of Noveske's N4 Light Recce Basic 16" Rifle. There's a wait involved, and I'm usually pretty impatient, but in this case, I decided that since I'm literally starting from scratch, I'd take that cash and put it in gear, wait or not.
bootfoot
One more note: I wasn't all that crazy about a 2-stage trigger, but it seems like I was having a hard time finding a lower at all. What are y'alls thoughts on that (LMT 2-stage trigger) if this is the right place to ask? Never mind.
What does the double chrome lined bbl ( "heavy M249 Chrome Lining, (appx. 2 times as thick as an M4 or M16)" bring to the table with respect to 1) longer bbl life, 2) accuracy, and accuracy retention down the road, and are there any other advantages?
Oh, and could someone compare a BravoCompany mid-length with a Noveske mid-length upper? I want to wait for BCM's 16" middy to become available - I'm on the list.
Not negating anyone's argument, but personally, I can't afford not to buy the best the first time around.
Chief
As a noob of all noobs, I can't debate Noveske versus any other top-tier supplier of complete uppers. I went that way because I knew there was a good chance I'd be getting one of the better barrels, assembled properly with one of the better bolt groups, for a sensible price, with a reasonable lead time. Also Noveske customers seemed happy with the service they received.
I'm not going to claim Noveske is the best, but for my first two uppers I guess I'm pretty much thinking what Chief expressed so well.
ETA Although I'm perfectly willing to settle for 2nd- or even 3rd- tier components that are enough to get me shooting that top grade upper -- as long as they are cheap and have some resale value -- for example my Stag LPK. Those parts will likely be replaced when I've become familiar with the rifle and confident I can use it effectively, because until then it's just a range toy.
I always thought that there was dubious value in chrome lining but the real value in Noveske is the cold hammer forged barrel.
Is Noveske the only AR mfg to offer cold hammer forged barrels?
I am also looking for my "1st" real AR. The first one was a BM so that didn't count.. ;)
At this point I am debating between:
Colt 6920
Colt 6520
Noveske N4 (CHF barrel)
Sig 556 (CHF barrel)
LMT complete upper/lower
Oh, and could someone compare a BravoCompany mid-length with a Noveske mid-length upper?
Yes, Noveske's are in stock and BCM's are not. And there is no telling when the BCM's will be available. If you'd actually like to shoot the thing rather than just dream about it, then go Noveske.
-- for example my Stag LPK.
I wouldn't loose any sleep over that Stag LPK. I have yet to see any empirical evidence to suggest it's any less quality than the Colt, which costs 2.5 times as much.
After much reading here and in other places, I finally decided to pick up an AR-15. I had been seriously looking at 14.5" rifles (w/permanent FH) but this thread convinced me to take a serious look at 16" rifles, specifically the 16" Noveske.
I found that, by the time I added the features I wanted to another rifle (Stag or CMMG) I was awfully close to the price of the Noveske anyway, so I went ahead and got the 16" N4. I was planning on getting the Low Profile model, but the guys at the store made me a deal on the 16" N4 LowPro with VIS, so that's what I went with.
I'm pretty sure that this is actually way more rifle than I'll ever need, but it's nice to know that I got a quality rifle right from the start. Thanks to all here for the info you've shared!
Brian
After much reading here and in other places, I finally decided to pick up an AR-15. I had been seriously looking at 14.5" rifles (w/permanent FH) but this thread convinced me to take a serious look at 16" rifles, specifically the 16" Noveske.
I found that, by the time I added the features I wanted to another rifle (Stag or CMMG) I was awfully close to the price of the Noveske anyway, so I went ahead and got the 16" N4. I was planning on getting the Low Profile model, but the guys at the store made me a deal on the 16" N4 LowPro with VIS, so that's what I went with.
I'm pretty sure that this is actually way more rifle than I'll ever need, but it's nice to know that I got a quality rifle right from the start. Thanks to all here for the info you've shared!
Brian
Always better to have a bit more rifle than what you need vs. not enough IMO. Congrats on your new N4.
[QUOTE=b_saan;167017]Always better to have a bit more rifle than what you need vs. not enough IMO. QUOTE]
well said. spending what you may consider big money on a quality rilfe is one thing, and sometimes upfront costs feel painful, but what you receive in return over the course of your purchases service life its real price. economically, thats it value and unquantifiably measured utility (ie joy it brings you). spend now, enjoy, get good results and never look back or fret over your initial outlay. buying "value" helps assure long term happiness in the forms of reliability, lower maintainace/replacement/breakage costs and time/money saved in the future as well as higher resale value(should you chose that route).
as a 1st time AR buyer myself, i read a boat load of threads on this forum, and, more specifically, focused on the many "what do i buy" threads by rob_s. he has taken alot of time and put what looks to be a great deal of research both on the range and online to put together an easy method to set up a 1st time AR buyer for long term success. this thread was meant as a simple and surefire answer for a noob to get a quality base platform that can be modified in the future as the user's needs dictate. thanks to threads like this and alot of patience from Grant, i think im in good shape for as long time. in fact im already contemplating a 10.5" upper, supressor. i will keep sreading but i have a pretty good idea what i want
Noob here looking to buy my first AR platform and am looking at the 14.5" N4. What are the plusses of the VIS upper over the Low Profile and is it worth the extra $200?
I'm thinking I'll go factory SBR so I can have the option of a shorter upper later without having to engrave my info.
I vote S&W for $850. Keep it simple and read the forums for a year while you decide what you really want. Keep saving until you can afford what you really want, now that you know what you want. I put money aside until I had enough for a great rifle and a class to learn how to use it. If you don't want to take a class, buy a flatscreen TV with your savings. S&W will do everything you need it to.
spamsammich
09-17-08, 18:50
Noob here looking to buy my first AR platform and am looking at the 14.5" N4. What are the plusses of the VIS upper over the Low Profile and is it worth the extra $200?
I'm thinking I'll go factory SBR so I can have the option of a shorter upper later without having to engrave my info.
In my eyes, the only benefit of the VIS over the Low Pro is that it is closer to a true monolithic upper rail and you do not have to (can't) remove the rail system to swap barrels. That being said, I don't think it is worth the extra cost. The SWS rail on the Low Pro is very nice. I finally got to handle one on monday and it was one of the more nicely machined rails I've seen.
If you intend on pushing your optics out past your receiver, it may be worth it to go with the VIS.
Just placed my order for the N4 Light Recce Basic 16". Why is it a $12 premium to change out the TD to a MIAD when both grips cost $32-$35 normally? Even though it's overpriced, I'm gonna pay the difference so I don't have to deal with selling the TD when I get it.
they probably have a deal worked out with TD where they get the grips by the metric ton-load and can offer them very cheaply. They are providing the MIAD as a service and just don't order as many and that's where you see the price difference.
I think it's well worth $12 more.
Because they use the full MIAD kit which is normally $43.00 or so. They use the front strap with the trigger guard.
MBR
If I were buying a new AR today...
I'd be buying another gas piston system AR.
Rob,
Thanks for the detailed post. I am new to the forum and getting ready to take the plunge into a Noveske. I have a couple questions. The N4 Light Reece Basic is $1425.55 and the next model up is the N4 Light Reece FSR at $1845.00 Only difference I can see from the website is the FSR has the 9" free float handguard w /1913 rails. I do want the free float handguards vs the standard plastic handguard but is it worth the $420.00 that Noveske charges or would I better off buying my own? I know that different brands handguard/rail systems can be had for cheaper, but my concern there is I do not have any AR tools or experience with changing/ installing. Your thoughts on which route to go? Thanks.
The N4 Light Reece Basic is $1425.55 and the next model up is the N4 Light Reece FSR at $1845.00 Only difference I can see from the website is the FSR has the 9" free float handguard w /1913 rails. I do want the free float handguards vs the standard plastic handguard but is it worth the $420.00 that Noveske charges or would I better off buying my own? I know that different brands handguard/rail systems can be had for cheaper, but my concern there is I do not have any AR tools or experience with changing/ installing. Your thoughts on which route to go? Thanks.
Daniel Defense 9.0 Free Float drop in @ $275, but it is not the same as the FSR: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=9.0OR-DD .
In addition to the handguard, the FSR also has a forged Vltor MUR upper receiver featuring an anti-rotation interface with the handguard.
BTW, you are making a great choice by going Noveske. I have a 14.5" N4 Light Basic Carbine and love it. It replaced my S&W M&P15A. If I had it to do over today I would probably buy the N4 Light Reece Basic and add the DD Omega. That wasn't a choice when I bought.
I saw the Omega rail and see its easily installed. I think I may go with the N4 Reece Basic 16" and put the Omega rails on myself. Thanks for the advice!
I'd be buying another gas piston system AR.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19280&highlight=qualified
Rob,
Thanks for the detailed post. I am new to the forum and getting ready to take the plunge into a Noveske. I have a couple questions. The N4 Light Reece Basic is $1425.55 and the next model up is the N4 Light Reece FSR at $1845.00 Only difference I can see from the website is the FSR has the 9" free float handguard w /1913 rails. I do want the free float handguards vs the standard plastic handguard but is it worth the $420.00 that Noveske charges or would I better off buying my own? I know that different brands handguard/rail systems can be had for cheaper, but my concern there is I do not have any AR tools or experience with changing/ installing. Your thoughts on which route to go? Thanks.
I see that too.
IMHO, that rail is overpriced at $420. I like it, but not at that price.
If this is your first M4-pattern rifle, I'd still get the basic and run if for awhile with the plastic handguards. Get out to some matches and classes and see what other people are running and get some hands-on with them. You may find that you like the Daniel Defense or Larue rails better for less money.
Many dealers will install the rails for you at a discount if you buy the rails from them. All you have to do is ship them the upper.
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