View Full Version : Federal Judge rules today that NSA phone survelliance legal
FlyingHunter
12-27-13, 17:03
Article citation:
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/nsa-phone-surveillance-ruling-101569.html
My personal favorite quote from the judge's opinion/article:
The judge acknowledged that the data collection system is far-reaching, and "vacuums up information about virtually every telephone call, to, from or within the United States"
Snowden recently delivered a Christmas message saying that we are far beyond even the dystopian creation in George Orwell's famous novel titled "1984"
My favorite Snowden quote:
Snowden said he instigated one of the biggest government leaks in U.S. history to inform the public of what he called "the greatest danger to our freedom and way of life."
So that about raps it up...Executive, Legislative, and now Judicial branches with 24/7 media support for "We the Sheeple"
“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
― Benjamin Franklin
Who cares. Phil is back on Duck Dynasty.
No seriously. Looking through my facebook feed today. I have seen 1 post about the NSA ruling and more than I could even care to count about Duck Dynasty.
I am tired of it. Face it guys. We have lost. More than that. I think we have lost the right to victory even if we could achieve it.
Belmont31R
12-27-13, 17:21
The USG has done way more harm to the US in the name of fighting AQ than AQ has ever done to us.
Moose-Knuckle
12-27-13, 17:29
Snowden recently delivered a Christmas message saying that we are far beyond even the dystopian creation in George Orwell's famous novel titled "1984"
My favorite Snowden quote:
Snowden said he instigated one of the biggest government leaks in U.S. history to inform the public of what he called "the greatest danger to our freedom and way of life."
Back in 1998 I had a subject matter expert in the field of information security tell me at a lecture he was giving that "we are so far beyond Big Brother it isnt' even funny". This is just the tip of the iceberg . . . we really have no idea how far this rabbit hole goes.
Back in 1998 I had a subject matter expert in the field of information security tell me at a lecture he was giving that "we are so far beyond Big Brother it isnt' even funny". This is just the tip of the iceberg . . . we really have no idea how far this rabbit hole goes.
Do we really want to know the truth? Should we take the Blue Pill, or the Red one? And what would we do about it if we really got to see the entire truth?
Moose-Knuckle
12-27-13, 18:40
Do we really want to know the truth? Should we take the Blue Pill, or the Red one?
I have always been one to peek behind the Wizard's curtain.
And what would we do about it if we really got to see the entire truth?
Bush #41 put it like this . . .
“If the American people ever found out what we have done they will chase us down the streets and lynch us.”
Who cares. Phil is back on Duck Dynasty..
BINGO. Couldn't have said it better.
We're F-ed big time, in a big way. Everything the Globalists are doing is working....and people are becoming mentally challenged because of it. And sadly I think the people enjoy it lol
Hang on, we're in for a wild ride......reality is crazier than fiction.
Cagemonkey
12-27-13, 19:10
Deleted.
Cagemonkey
12-27-13, 19:14
I have always been one to peak behind the Wizard's curtain.
Bush #41 put it like this . . .
“If the American people ever found out what we have done they will chase us down the streets and lynch us.”
Yup. Someday people are going to open their eyes and learn the truth. Its not going to be pretty.
FlyingHunter
12-27-13, 21:48
Yup. Someday people are going to open their eyes and learn the truth. Its not going to be pretty.
That Truth that many people will see; will come with a special perspective and view -from their knees
BufordTJustice
12-27-13, 22:01
Back in 1998 I had a subject matter expert in the field of information security tell me at a lecture he was giving that "we are so far beyond Big Brother it isnt' even funny". This is just the tip of the iceberg . . . we really have no idea how far this rabbit hole goes.
I have a bud who is active in AF Intel. He has said the same thing. He said that the constitution is literally meaningless.
He told me to, quite literally, use the internet like my mother and the Pope were sitting next to me at all times.
I have a bud who is active in AF Intel. He has said the same thing. He said that the constitution is literally meaningless.
He told me to, quite literally, use the internet like my mother and the Pope were sitting next to me at all times.
I could've told you that just from Watching C-SPAN, or just looking at all the Laws and Regulations in place.
BufordTJustice
12-27-13, 23:57
I could've told you that just from Watching C-SPAN, or just looking at all the Laws and Regulations in place.
It's just chilling to hear that from somebody who is an insider. This wasn't an epiphany moment, not hardly. However, hearing it from somebody who has first hand knowledge of the totalitarian regime that our government has become....that lends new perspective.
It is down right scary. Honestly terrifying.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-28-13, 09:53
I have a bud who is active in AF Intel. He has said the same thing. He said that the constitution is literally meaningless.
He told me to, quite literally, use the internet like my mother and the Pope were sitting next to me at all times.
I can get both of them to forgive me....
I've just read reports on the ruling, but the major issues I have wiith what I've seem:
1. If we had had this program 9/11 wouldn't have happened? 9/11 was a colossal failure of Intel, this isn't the silver bullet he says it it.
2. We need this to fight AQ. THat is not the standard. All kinds of things would help in fighting terrorism. Take away all our rights and we might have security.
That and the push to have people like us branded as terrorists, and it starts to get a little scary . That Alex Jones guy drives me nuts and I think he's crazy, but he may just be onto something.
NCPatrolAR
12-28-13, 10:04
This ruling should have been expected and just confirms this is fast tracking to the Supreme Court
BufordTJustice
12-28-13, 10:09
I can get both of them to forgive me....
I've just read reports on the ruling, but the major issues I have wiith what I've seem:
1. If we had had this program 9/11 wouldn't have happened? 9/11 was a colossal failure of Intel, this isn't the silver bullet he says it it.
2. We need this to fight AQ. THat is not the standard. All kinds of things would help in fighting terrorism. Take away all our rights and we might have security.
That and the push to have people like us branded as terrorists, and it starts to get a little scary . That Alex Jones guy drives me nuts and I think he's crazy, but he may just be onto something.
1) You're 100% correct.
2) Also 100%.
As somebody who used to use Alex Jones as an example of who NOT to listen to...he's been right far too many times within the last 1-2 years for me to keep using him as an example of idiocy. I could do without his absurd ranting and raving. I don't need that shit. But his content seems to be timely and at times has been scarily accurate.
As an LEO, I get more and more frustrated at the injustices perpetrated by the FedGov, but if I did those same things (warrantless searches, covert surveillance, etc.) I would be publicly crucified. I'd lose my job, my career, my dignity....and be open to civil liability to boot because sovereign immunity would no longer apply....and rightfully so.
If even ONE cop did what the FedGov does, much less an entire single department....people would be rioting in the streets. But these f*cking sheeple won't get off their entitled asses to call their congressman/woman and have a VERY frank conversation with them about this bullshit. They won't set foot out the door to protest something where they're not standing to receive a direct and tangible benefit from their actions. They're in essence, children and are selfish by nature.
But they'll protest for legalization of weed.....or against Chic fil A/Phil Robertson.
We are hosed. The constitution that I swore to uphold is a memory...even though I still go 10-8 trying to protect it. I guess I'm crazy, or nostalgic, or idealistic, or all three.....
We're too far gone.
montanadave
12-28-13, 10:17
He told me to, quite literally, use the internet like my mother and the Pope were sitting next to me at all times.
Honestly, what I do on the internet is the least of my worries. They (whoever the nebulous "they" are) are quite capable of fabricating a digital trail and sufficient "evidence" to incriminate me anytime "they" decide to put me in their crosshairs. Not that even such falsified evidence would ever see the light of day or be subject to any meaningful scrutiny by an advocate acting on my behalf.
Shit, somebody could walk into my house, pop a memory stick into my laptop, load me up with kiddie porn, and totally **** my life up forever in a New York minute.
When I contemplate the reality of it all, I feel like a Trekkie facing the Borg: "Resistance is futile."
BufordTJustice
12-28-13, 11:48
Honestly, what I do on the internet is the least of my worries. They (whoever the nebulous "they" are) are quite capable of fabricating a digital trail and sufficient "evidence" to incriminate me anytime "they" decide to put me in their crosshairs. Not that even such falsified evidence would ever see the light of day or be subject to any meaningful scrutiny by an advocate acting on my behalf.
Shit, somebody could walk into my house, pop a memory stick into my laptop, load me up with kiddie porn, and totally **** my life up forever in a New York minute.
When I contemplate the reality of it all, I feel like a Trekkie facing the Borg: "Resistance is futile."
That is actually the perfect articulation of how I feel right now.
Moose-Knuckle
12-28-13, 14:53
When I contemplate the reality of it all, I feel like a Trekkie facing the Borg: "Resistance is futile."
We are all going to die at some point, the choice we will be faced with sooner than later is do you want to "live" a little while longer on your knees or die standing with your boots on the ground.
This ruling should have been expected and just confirms this is fast tracking to the Supreme Court
Not that I have any confidence in them to make a correct ruling given their track record.
Not that I have any confidence in them to make a correct ruling given their track record.
x2... doomed....
Sent from my DROID X2
FlyingHunter
12-28-13, 22:43
And a little reminder from our Liar-in Chief:
June 7, 2013: Quoting... Obama: 'Nobody Is Listening to Your Telephone Calls'
Source: Wall Street Journal. Link: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323844804578531343379996824
And while I admire his 1st place prize for Politifacts 2013 Lie of the Year regarding "If you like your healthplan/doctor you can keep it", surely the "nobody is listening to your phone calls" lie was worthy of a Top Ten recognition or at least honorable mention when the judge yesterday ruled it was legal and opined that it "vacuums up information about virtually every telephone call to, from, or within the United States."
I'm also rather perplexed that it would appear there's not a thing we can do about it as we watch it essentially flushing our constitutional right to privacy down the drain.
I'm certain my 5th grade civics teacher would proclaim we can vote and support candidates that affirm our freedom and constitutional rights - but I think we're beyond that precipice.
I honestly do not see what anyone can do to stop this train.
Now now.. POTUS said we should reject the message from the voices of those speak of government tyranny for they are without credibility ...
Yup....... doom...
Sent from my DROID X2
At some point (probably not too far off) we are going to have a situation arise and when it does it will be ugly. People aren't pissed off enough yet. As long as they have power, jobs to go to and food on the table they will bear it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-29-13, 10:32
Sooooo.... If we have all of these cyber and e-int assets in place, why is there still cyber crime- especially at the level of the recent Target CC hack? Isn't that in effect a large scale attack on our financial system? If the NSA can't stop the Target hack, what use is it for defense? If agents can work around it, isn't the NSA really just at best an electronic Maginot line and at worst trying to turn the internet into a cyber ghetto to control us?
Belmont31R
12-29-13, 10:54
http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/29/5253226/nsa-cia-fbi-laptop-usb-plant-spy
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/catalog-reveals-nsa-has-back-doors-for-numerous-devices-a-940994.html
VooDoo6Actual
12-29-13, 10:55
If the dystopia continues eventually you will get to critical mass & entropy / chaos on the Twilight Zone World Dystopic Tour.
I must admit that I am really having a hard time understanding how some of you have reached the conclusion that the (your) government is a threat to you.
A good dose of skepticism towards what the government does, as well as being critical to actions undertaken is good and all, but some of the comments I have read in various threads during my time here are a bit astounding. Personally, I would be more concerned about commercial actors, than my own government.
In a society you will have different groups with different political leanings, and policies they want enacted, but to claim that they will stop at nothing to enact these policies seems a bit too much.
Granted, I have some knowledge and experience in the intelligence field, so I have a good feel for what goes on at least here in Norway. That means I also know of the oversight provisions that are in place, to ensure that these activities are done by the book.
I also know the results of "secret" operations being conducted without the public's knowledge. Finally, I also have a good grasp of the limitations of the intelligence/secret services, and that it is naive and unrealistic to expect them to stop every single malicious act towards a nation.
Sooooo.... If we have all of these cyber and e-int assets in place, why is there still cyber crime-
Security Theater. Corporate Welfare. Crony Capitalism.
Remember Able Danger. The 911 crew from Saudi Arabia was being tracked but their warnings were ignored.
The Boston Bombers were handed to us by the Russians. The FBI concluded there was nothing to see here.
We spend billions on expensive systems and employ thousands of contractors. In the end, we cannot even do basic police work. When an attack is thwarted it is usually because a citizen or group of citizens were acting in their own defense.
I must admit that I am really having a hard time understanding how some of you have reached the conclusion that the (your) government is a threat to you.
A good dose of skepticism towards what the government does, as well as being critical to actions undertaken is good and all, but some of the comments I have read in various threads during my time here are a bit astounding. Personally, I would be more concerned about commercial actors, than my own government.
In a society you will have different groups with different political leanings, and policies they want enacted, but to claim that they will stop at nothing to enact these policies seems a bit too much.
Granted, I have some knowledge and experience in the intelligence field, so I have a good feel for what goes on at least here in Norway. That means I also know of the oversight provisions that are in place, to ensure that these activities are done by the book.
I also know the results of "secret" operations being conducted without the public's knowledge. Finally, I also have a good grasp of the limitations of the intelligence/secret services, and that it is naive and unrealistic to expect them to stop every single malicious act towards a nation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights
Fourth Amendment
Main article: Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[69]
The Fourth Amendment guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, along with requiring any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause.
Tenth Amendment
Main article: Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.[69]
The Tenth Amendment states the Constitution's principle of federalism by providing that powers not granted to the federal government by the Constitution, nor prohibited to the states, are reserved to the states or the people. The amendment provides no new powers or rights to the states, but rather preserves their authority in all matters not specifically granted to the federal government.[92]
VooDoo6Actual
12-29-13, 12:50
I must admit that I am really having a hard time understanding how some of you have reached the conclusion that the (your) government is a threat to you.
A good dose of skepticism towards what the government does, as well as being critical to actions undertaken is good and all, but some of the comments I have read in various threads during my time here are a bit astounding. Personally, I would be more concerned about commercial actors, than my own government.
In a society you will have different groups with different political leanings, and policies they want enacted, but to claim that they will stop at nothing to enact these policies seems a bit too much.
Granted, I have some knowledge and experience in the intelligence field, so I have a good feel for what goes on at least here in Norway. That means I also know of the oversight provisions that are in place, to ensure that these activities are done by the book.
I also know the results of "secret" operations being conducted without the public's knowledge. Finally, I also have a good grasp of the limitations of the intelligence/secret services, and that it is naive and unrealistic to expect them to stop every single malicious act towards a nation.
Are you from or born in Norway or an American born in America working in Norway ?
Let's first establish these facts & this will help to answer your perplexity / confusion / difficulty in understanding or beliefs based on those perceptions.
Because I have a very strong suspicion & generally find this to be true (as I did w/ several Israeli Military & all different units Comrades, several other foreign SF's, a German Kickboxing Champ, a former Spatsnaz MVD Operator just to name a few of many, which is why I suspect the same issues, btw) that I had to explain the same misnomers or false understandings / misinterpretations they had as well) & therein-lies the problem.
I am a Norwegian, born and raised in Norway.
BufordTJustice
12-29-13, 12:55
I must admit that I am really having a hard time understanding how some of you have reached the conclusion that the (your) government is a threat to you.
A good dose of skepticism towards what the government does, as well as being critical to actions undertaken is good and all, but some of the comments I have read in various threads during my time here are a bit astounding. Personally, I would be more concerned about commercial actors, than my own government.
In a society you will have different groups with different political leanings, and policies they want enacted, but to claim that they will stop at nothing to enact these policies seems a bit too much.
Granted, I have some knowledge and experience in the intelligence field, so I have a good feel for what goes on at least here in Norway. That means I also know of the oversight provisions that are in place, to ensure that these activities are done by the book.
I also know the results of "secret" operations being conducted without the public's knowledge. Finally, I also have a good grasp of the limitations of the intelligence/secret services, and that it is naive and unrealistic to expect them to stop every single malicious act towards a nation.
I do not make the assumption that this surveillance is being conducted to actually stop terrorist acts. It is a power play to eliminate resistance. It's about control.
If you want a preview, look at what Obama's IRS (along with Lois Lerner) did to Tea Party groups. Also, look at Dr. Ben Carson's tax audit investigation that came shortly after he publicly spoke truth-to-power....to Obama's face. Bush had his fair share of infringements with Valery Plame, etc...but Obama has "turned it up to 11".
CONTROL is what this is about. If we (The U.S.) wanted to stop terrorism, we would secure our borders similar to what Israel has done.
This is proof in my mind that this is not about security at all.
BufordTJustice
12-29-13, 12:57
Security Theater. Corporate Welfare. Crony Capitalism.
Remember Able Danger. The 911 crew from Saudi Arabia was being tracked but their warnings were ignored.
The Boston Bombers were handed to us by the Russians. The FBI concluded there was nothing to see here.
We spend billions on expensive systems and employ thousands of contractors. In the end, we cannot even do basic police work. When an attack is thwarted it is usually because a citizen or group of citizens were acting in their own defense.
BINGO.
And even more alarming is that the political elites always seem to have these enormous, pre-prepared bills to deprive us of even more of our native rights after each tragedy.
From Newton to 9-1-1, to the Aurora shooting, to the Boston Bombing, etc., etc., etc.
How convenient.
BufordTJustice
12-29-13, 13:15
At some point (probably not too far off) we are going to have a situation arise and when it does it will be ugly. People aren't pissed off enough yet. As long as they have power, jobs to go to and food on the table they will bear it.
Having lived through nearly a dozen hurricane direct hits or near-hits in my life here in FL, I can say that the part in bold WILL be the final catalyst.
Just Google Hurricane Charlie. It substantially deviated from its "projected" path (and intensified) at the last minute and, bitch-slapped the entire I-4 corridor.
My part of Eastern Orlando was without power for just shy of a week on a large scale (with only pockets of functioning traffic lights and the occasional store with power). Many smaller pockets of neighborhoods and shopping centers went nearly 3 weeks without power.
Things got out of hand at several different points, with LEOs only responding to "urgent" calls for service (of violent forcible felonies) with 3 or more units. "Non urgent" calls were simply dismissed or allowed to hold indefinitely.
But people had access to food and water due to the relatively small area of damage and the ability to transport supplies from unaffected areas. Nothing like what Argentina went through...where there was no unaffected area.
VooDoo6Actual
12-29-13, 13:17
I am a Norwegian, born and raised in Norway.
Sure no problem.
Me loves the Norwegian women BTW had a hottie named Berit for 12 years of marriage, hunted Elk / Rangifer tarandus (Reindeer) there several times w/ her family on my visits so I know more about the culture & their beliefs that most & understand which is why I even bothered to address it or respond to you.
America has been an exception of Freedom's & Liberty from it's genesis. It's crowning achievement has always been Constitution & BOR. In fact so much so, many feel it was divinely inspired. Hence the term American exceptionalism. You have to research that & fully comprehend what that means to fully understand. This is one of the reason's our founder's instituted a clause in our Constitution regarding Natural Born citizens running for the Presidency. That has since been exploited, bastardized, mutated, hybrided, chimera'd etc. to it's current iteration which is fairly distorted from it's original intent & yes I'm sure of that as I'm confident it's not just my interpretation. So we are struggling w/ many concepts that are foreign to us or "Radical", not legal, not constitutional, not normal & contrarian to our BOR / ROL. They are being manipulated or "the deck of cards is stacked" so to speak if that makes sense to you. This struggle we are undergoing is why there is a disconnect for you, which I suspect is why your confused or not tracking. You are not a Natural born American which in & of itself does not present any problem to any of us other than our rights are being attacked so it hits home deeper & more visceral to us. I suggest you do more research on our Constitution, BOR / ROL, American History & not what your getting in Europe, hence the term "lost in translation". I don't appreciate some Barking Moonbat libtard parroting their parties or controller's / master's agenda because they own the media. It's not personally directed at you either as I have found this same scenario many times in the past as well. It's very intimate & personal to many Americans, our freedom's & beliefs we have & hold & many of us (not all) appreciate them (our freedoms) more than most people of other lands know or understand. Your knowledge of Intelligence community is (& you most likely won't receive this well but it is truth) is limited at best. It is because of the compartmentalization apparatus your accustomed to. This limits your perceptions of how things are concatenated or really run sub rosa. I would ask that you challenge yourself & try to understand & accept it (that you don't really understand as much as you thought you did about America's tenants BOR / ROL & think outside your traditional paradigm of beliefs. You would be well served & my suggestion would be for you to talk w/ natural born Americans I would say older than 45 or so to track better on this azimuth. I generally find that most foreign people's understanding of American history is fairly limited & not that well researched fwiw.
Going to go shooting now & enjoy my day Sir !
BufordTJustice
12-29-13, 13:33
More good news:
Report: NSA intercepts computer deliveries
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_NSA_SURVEILLANCE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-12-29-13-01-13
It's one invasion of privacy after another.
"Der Spiegel's revelations relate to a division of the NSA known as Tailored Access Operations, or TAO, which is painted as an elite team of hackers specializing in stealing data from the toughest of targets.
Citing internal NSA documents, the magazine said Sunday that TAO's mission was "Getting the ungettable," and quoted an unnamed intelligence official as saying that TAO had gathered "some of the most significant intelligence our country has ever seen."
Der Spiegel said TAO had a catalog of high-tech gadgets for particularly hard-to-crack cases, including computer monitor cables specially modified to record what is being typed across the screen, USB sticks secretly fitted with radio transmitters to broadcast stolen data over the airwaves, and fake base stations intended to intercept mobile phone signals on the go.
The NSA doesn't just rely on James Bond-style spy gear, the magazine said. Some of the attacks described by Der Spiegel exploit weaknesses in the architecture of the Internet to deliver malicious software to specific computers. Others take advantage of weaknesses in hardware or software distributed by some of the world's leading information technology companies, including Cisco Systems, Inc. and China's Huawei Technologies Ltd., the magazine reported.
Der Spiegel cited a 2008 mail order catalog-style list of vulnerabilities that NSA spies could exploit from companies such as Irvine, California-based Western Digital Corp. or Round Rock, Texas-based Dell Inc. The magazine said that suggested the agency was "compromising the technology and products of American companies."
Old-fashioned methods get a mention too. Der Spiegel said that if the NSA tracked a target ordering a new computer or other electronic accessories, TAO could tap its allies in the FBI and the CIA, intercept the hardware in transit, and take it to a secret workshop where it could be discretely fitted with espionage software before being sent on its way.
Intercepting computer equipment in such a way is among the NSA's "most productive operations," and has helped harvest intelligence from around the world, one document cited by Der Spiegel stated.
One of the most striking reported revelations concerned the NSA's alleged ability to spy on Microsoft Corp.'s crash reports, familiar to many users of the Windows operating system as the dialogue box which pops up when a game freezes or a Word document dies. The reporting system is intended to help Microsoft engineers improve their products and fix bugs, but Der Spiegel said the NSA was also sifting through the reports to help spies break into machines running Windows. One NSA document cited by the magazine appeared to poke fun at Microsoft's expense, replacing the software giant's standard error report message with the words: "This information may be intercepted by a foreign sigint (signals intelligence) system to gather detailed information and better exploit your machine."
Microsoft did not immediately return a call seeking comment"
Belmont31R
12-29-13, 14:18
Agreed with the posts above. AQ and the WOT is the justification for these abuses but our intel/LE community has proven they cannot reliably stop 'real' attacks. I say real because they're good at drumming up fake attacks, and then arresting some idiot, but when we have real deal foreign attacks they have a terrible track record.
Then we get a guy like Obama who uses the resources of the Federal government for his own political purposes, and all this information they are collecting suddenly becomes very useful for the wrong reasons. All the IRS audits of people who support right wing political candidates (a bunch of top Romney donors suddenly got audited), the 501 organization scandal, Fast and Furious, ect. I can't imagine any western country's populace putting up with a political leader using the tools of the government or other supposedly confidential information against political opponents or intentionally causing crime as a talking point against a larger political debate.
People in smaller western countries also have a much bigger relationship than with their government than American's do. Aside from my time in the military the post office is the only interaction Ive had with the Federal government. I guess buying guns, and filling out the background check. Other than that they might as well not exist. During the shutdown the vast majority of people went about their daily lives with no impact. We have quite a bit different interaction with our government than Europeans due to size, and our state system.
At some point (probably not too far off) we are going to have a situation arise and when it does it will be ugly. People aren't pissed off enough yet. As long as they have power, jobs to go to and food on the table they will bear it.
It would require a sympathetic and completely identifiable martyr to even rustle their jimmies. I peg the likelihood of that happening at about 3%. :(
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-29-13, 16:42
So what is the difference between the NSA and the STASI? I've never gotten a good answer to that.
Belmont31R
12-29-13, 17:18
So what is the difference between the NSA and the STASI? I've never gotten a good answer to that.
The Stasi would be extremely jealous?
The Stasi would be extremely jealous?
That and the stasi would using all of these intel gathering methodologies to prosecute the daylights out of people or just make them disappear. As alluded to earlier in this thread since high profile violent crimes and cyber crimes continue to occur unabated it stands to reason that the goal of these intrusions are not to result in criminal prosecution, not even close.
Their doing it because they can, because they want to, and because their is extreme value in doing so.
Sent from my DROID X2
BufordTJustice
12-29-13, 18:58
That and the stasi would using all of these intel gathering methodologies to prosecute the daylights out of people or just make them disappear. As alluded to earlier in this thread since high profile violent crimes and cyber crimes continue to occur unabated it stands to reason that the goal of these intrusions are not to result in criminal prosecution, not even close.
Their doing it because they can, because they want to, and because their is extreme value in doing so.
Sent from my DROID X2
If I were a badguy, here's what I would do with all that intel: I would use it to humiliate and (thus) silence my critics.
Imagine if all they ever did was publicly "leak" one's porn viewing habits (if you look at porn, that is). How many careers could that end? Relationships? Social circles? It wouldn't take much more than that to discredit ones' opponents and generally make their lives shitty.
Or, what about CC purchases...it would be like the dick-pump scene from Austin Powers.....but this time it wouldn't be funny.
With that kind of intel, I could do whatever I wanted to whomever I wanted. And that's the entire point. CONTROL.
If I were a badguy, here's what I would do with all that intel: I would use it to humiliate and (thus) silence my critics.
Imagine if all they ever did was publicly "leak" one's porn viewing habits (if you look at porn, that is). How many careers could that end? Relationships? Social circles? It wouldn't take much more than that to discredit ones' opponents and generally make their lives shitty.
Or, what about CC purchases...it would be like the dick-pump scene from Austin Powers.....but this time it wouldn't be funny.
With that kind of intel, I could do whatever I wanted to whomever I wanted. And that's the entire point. CONTROL.
And maybe that is what's really going on in Washington. Figure noone has gone to prison for corruption, no congressional investigation has gone any where, and it seems every politician and their staffers, contacts, associates et al are made of teflon. Wtf is that about... oh wait perhaps ive answered my own question ..
Sent from my DROID X2
Moose-Knuckle
12-30-13, 01:36
I must admit that I am really having a hard time understanding how some of you have reached the conclusion that the (your) government is a threat to you.
One word . . . Democide (murder by government).
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
The single greatest threat to human life on planet Earth are governing bodies.
I must admit that I am really having a hard time understanding how some of you have reached the conclusion that the (your) government is a threat to you.
Government always has been and always will be the single greatest threat to personal and individual liberty... always..
Sent from my DROID X2
I must admit that I am really having a hard time understanding how some of you have reached the conclusion that the (your) government is a threat to you.
You must be pretty young and I'm too old to list all the times our government has been the biggest threat in the lives of some US citizens.
For the average person here, our government is working against our interests or wishes. We are trying to NOT get to the point where those actions become an actual threat to our lives and way of life.
Obama is sending a gay delegation to Russia because he is concerned about the rights of homosexuals in other countries. But in our country he has tried to get legislation through Congress that would severely limit our second amendment rights and our ability to defend ourselves and our families.
Maybe it will actually take a Sandy Hook gun ban to pass to get some of you people to figure it out. 20 years ago almost NOBODY thought Bill Clinton would actually ban anything until he did it. And for 10 years it was a real nightmare. A Sandy Hook gun ban won't have a 10 year expiration date on it, it will be "from now on" and "forever."
Obama took his best shot, even forcing Harry "I'm the NRA with an A+ rating" to come out of the closet as an anti gunner. Thankfully a massive influx of NRA Life members sent a very clear message to DC.
If I were a badguy, here's what I would do with all that intel: I would use it to humiliate and (thus) silence my critics.
Imagine if all they ever did was publicly "leak" one's porn viewing habits (if you look at porn, that is). How many careers could that end? Relationships? Social circles? It wouldn't take much more than that to discredit ones' opponents and generally make their lives shitty.
Or, what about CC purchases...it would be like the dick-pump scene from Austin Powers.....but this time it wouldn't be funny.
With that kind of intel, I could do whatever I wanted to whomever I wanted. And that's the entire point. CONTROL.
My porn buying and viewing habits would stun and amaze the entire internet into a state of awe that even pictures of my gun collection couldn't produce.
BufordTJustice
12-30-13, 04:33
My porn buying and viewing habits would stun and amaze the entire internet into a state of awe that even pictures of my gun collection couldn't produce.
I just spit my meal replacement shake all over my coffee table! :)
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-30-13, 08:13
Government always has been and always will be the single greatest threat to personal and individual liberty... always..
Sent from my DROID X2
Governments have always killed far more people than any other organization, especially in the last 300 years. Just by some quick mental math, govts have killed far more of their own people than they have killed of other countries people. Going to another country and bombing or shelling people is expensive. It is far easier an cheaper to kill people at home with a bullet to the back of the head or thru starvation in work camp or region. Plus, you then remove the greatest threat to control, the people nearest you. Having foreigners come in and displace you is a very uncommon thing. Getting overthrown by your own people is pretty common.
When you consider the amount of power and the money in the US, we have a pretty good oligarchy. You can point to some smaller EU countries run better, but who gives a crap about them. This is the big game where if you can set up a govt program or get a sweet Wall Street set-up (or even better tie the two together) you can have your own little fiefdom.
That needs securing and that needs be controlled.
And yes, that is some good perspective on the STASI vs NSA. I'd have to say that the STASI made more people and definitely more internal people disappear, but are we saying that the NSA has its hands clean? That is why so many here, even though he was an AQ ass-hat, were concerned when the American got zapped by a hellfire in Yemen. Specifically targeting Americans takes on a whole different flavor when you realize how much stuff the NSA is into. When you look at the efforts to make conservative Americans into terrorists, the ability to either mine (or even plant) incriminating evidence and the increasing militarization of the police- what's to worry about?
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-30-13, 08:19
My porn buying and viewing habits would stun and amaze the entire internet into a state of awe that even pictures of my gun collection couldn't produce.
Just an aside, while waiting in line for the Christmas Santa with my 6 year old daughter, one of Santa elves comes over with a tablet of some kind to show it's features. She touts some feature where you can turn any picture into a electronic water color version. She asks my daughter what her favorite animal is, and just as she presses enter, I blurt out "I hope you have the family filter on" as she searches for pictures of "chicks".
montanadave
12-30-13, 09:03
My porn buying and viewing habits would stun and amaze the entire internet into a state of awe that even pictures of my gun collection couldn't produce.
I worry about your hydration, my friend, and the risks of autoerotic asphyxiation. :D
That, and the availability of .22LR ammo.
davidjinks
12-30-13, 09:13
Come on…Is anyone really surprised by any of this? Seriously?
We all knew that this was going to happen. People have been saying this shit for the past few years. The Judicial branch of our Gov is as crooked and corrupt as everyone else.
Fist off I want to thank the people who took their time to answer in a proper manner. Second, I want to make some clarifications wrt my person, my "mentality" and my experience. I have taken no offense to anything that has been said, just want to expound a bit.
I grew up during the latter part of the cold war, so I am no stranger to having an actual physical threat as a next door neighbor. The Soviet Union had forces deployed only a few kms from our border in 1968, so our military was on full alert. My father was serving at the time, and was standing his post.
I have grown up reading our history from WW2, and spoken to many of the resistance fighters who fought Nazi Germany, and who lived in an occupied country. I appreciate their experiences, their sacrifices and their lessons imparted to me.
I have deployed to conflict zones, and seen first hand what tyranny and abusive government can do.
The last thing I am is a conformist, or indoctrinated in any way. I make my own decisions and form my own opinions, based on various factors; life experience, values, belief system and so forth.
I understand and appreciate the 2A fight. Although we have nothing comparable to that right here, weapon ownership is limited to sports shooting and hunting, I see the same mentality here as the anti-2A crowd in the US is displaying. The left/liberals over here want to ban all semi-auto guns, in order to reduce firearm murder rates. Never mind that most murders here are comitted with knives. Pure emotional and ideological argumentation, no logic or facts applied at all.
I am all for the government to be kept in check through oversight provisions, in order to ensure that the elected officials acts in the nations best interest. The same with the secret services/intelligence services, they need to act according to the laws that apply to them; we have laws for both police and military intelligence operations. If people abuse their appointed powers or are otherwise conducting themselves in an irresponsible manner, they should be punished. We have seen it here several times during the last 8 years with our socialist government, officials that have been more concerned with furthering their own personal agendas, rather than sticking to either party politics or national interest. Fortunately, many have been forced to leave their jobs.
The biggest failure on our part was after July 22 2011, when our Prime Minister did not accept responsibility for what happened, and did not step down. His goverment alone had made regular cuts to police budgets over the years, resulting in a police force inadequately staffed, equipped or trained to handle that kind of situation. His rule of the country the last eight years has been compared to the government we had pre-WW2 who downplayed the threat posed by Nazi Germany, and kept downsizing our nation's military.
I have no illusions about our nation's security services/intelligence services being squeaky clean, partly because I have been to several briefings and training that has confirmed this. Unfortunately the public will never know how these services operate, many times successfully, because if they did find out, methods and techniques could be compromised. Some of these things would probably appear to be abuse of power, depriving people of their rights etc, but the Secret Services Oversight Committee would find out if they truly went outside any authority granted to them by law, and it would be stopped. Both the military intelligence service and the SSOC have denounced the claims from Snowden/Greenwald that the NSA has been spying ON Norway, and that the data is actually Norwegian military intelligence from Afghanistan, shared with the NSA. As I understand it, there is no consensus as to wether or not there have been any actual violations of the 4th amendment as part of this surveillance.
I also look with worry at how our society is evolving/devolving, depending on your stance, from a society where patriotism was in the forefront, to a society where entitlement seems to be the norm. "I am, therefore I deserve shit".
Now, the statements/claims that I have a hard time understanding, and have doubts about, are the theories that claim that the US gov is behind such incidents as 9/11, Newtown, Boston et al. It does not make sense, and the claimed intent behind orchestrating these events does not make sense. I also see where the gov seems to have overstepped and made grave mistakes, such as the Benghazi situation, the IRS-Tea Party scandal etc.
Then again, it would probably be a fruitless endeavor to argue back and forth on these issues. What is more perhaps more interesting is where would you like your country to go? What must change in order to correct the current course?
VooDoo6Actual
12-30-13, 11:14
Fist off I want to thank the people who took their time to answer in a proper manner. Second, I want to make some clarifications wrt my person, my "mentality" and my experience. I have taken no offense to anything that has been said, just want to expound a bit.
I grew up during the latter part of the cold war, so I am no stranger to having an actual physical threat as a next door neighbor. The Soviet Union had forces deployed only a few kms from our border in 1968, so our military was on full alert. My father was serving at the time, and was standing his post.
I have grown up reading our history from WW2, and spoken to many of the resistance fighters who fought Nazi Germany, and who lived in an occupied country. I appreciate their experiences, their sacrifices and their lessons imparted to me.
I have deployed to conflict zones, and seen first hand what tyranny and abusive government can do.
The last thing I am is a conformist, or indoctrinated in any way. I make my own decisions and form my own opinions, based on various factors; life experience, values, belief system and so forth.
I understand and appreciate the 2A fight. Although we have nothing comparable to that right here, weapon ownership is limited to sports shooting and hunting, I see the same mentality here as the anti-2A crowd in the US is displaying. The left/liberals over here want to ban all semi-auto guns, in order to reduce firearm murder rates. Never mind that most murders here are comitted with knives. Pure emotional and ideological argumentation, no logic or facts applied at all.
I am all for the government to be kept in check through oversight provisions, in order to ensure that the elected officials acts in the nations best interest. The same with the secret services/intelligence services, the need to act according to the laws that apply to them; we have laws for both police and military intelligence operations. If people abuse their appointed powers or are otherwise conducting themselves in an irresponsive manner, they should be punished. We have seen it here several times during the last 8 years with our socialist government, officials that have been more concerned with furthering their own personal agendas, rather than sticking to either party politics or national interest. Fortunately, many have been forced to leave their jobs.
The biggest failure on our part was after July 22 2011, when our Prime Minister did not accept responsibility for what happened, and did not step down. His goverment alone had made regular cuts to police budgets over the years, resulting in a police force inadequately staffed, equipped or trained to handle that kind of situation. His rule of the country the last eight years has been compared to the government we had pre-WW2 who downplayed the threat posed by Nazi Germany, and kept downsizing our nation's military.
I have no illusions about our nation's security services/intelligence services being squeaky clean, partly because I have been to several briefings and training that has confirmed this. Unfortunately the public will never know how these services operate, many times successfully, because if they did find out, methods and techniques could be compromised. Some of these things would probably appear to be abuse of power, depriving people of their rights etc, but the Secret Services Oversight Committee would find out if they truly went outside any authority granted to them by law, and it would be stopped. Both the military intelligence service and the SSOC have denounced the claims from Snowden/Greenwald that the NSA has been spying ON Norway, and that the data is actually Norwegian military intelligence from Afghanistan, shared with the NSA. As I understand it, there is no consensus as to wether or not there have been any actual violations of the 4th amendment as part of this surveillance.
I also look with worry at how our society is evolving/devolving, depending on your stance, from a society where patriotism was in the forefront, to a society where entitlement seems to be the norm. "I am, therefore I deserve shit".
Now, the statements/claims that I have a hard time understanding, and have doubts about, are the theories that claim that the US gov is behind such incidents as 9/11, Newtown, Boston et al. It does not make sense, and the claimed intent behind orchestrating these events does not make sense. I also see where the gov seems to have overstepped and made grave mistakes, such as the Benghazi situation, the IRS-Tea Party scandal etc.
Then again, it would probably be a fruitless endeavor to argue back and forth on these issues. What is more perhaps more interesting is where would you like your country to go? What must change in order to correct the current course?
No prob on my end & I'm always game for engaging in a respectful discussion.
A couple of key & crucial things I want to point out regarding your posts & wording. I waited & gauged this until I could see your maturity & understanding.
First, you tag line while I completely understand it is wrong. It is about SURVIVAL, because that is winning. The way your's is worded is exactly the corporate mentality's mantra & you should analyze it deeper. If you don't agree that's fine BUT look into what I'm inferring. That is yet another example of the disconnect. I know your savvy enough to see the finite points after further perusal.
Second, point is it's not just about semi-autos. It's bigger than that & you need to dip deeper. Your skimming the surface & I can tell from the depth of your content. Agenda 21 would be a good start. Full Spectrum Domination i.e. ecco-terrorism w/ regards to Weather Mod would be another. "Dirt Diver" / "Sin-Eater" would be an appropos term here. You need to research deeper. It's there. Analylize the EEI, as it is there.
Unfortunately the irony & reality is, when America is it's worst that tends to bring out it's best.
Respectfully submitted as always.
montanadave
12-30-13, 11:50
Arctic1: I appreciate your thoughtful contributions to this thread. I think it is beneficial for those of us in the U.S. to hear opinions and political views from folks outside our borders. I also think it is very enlightening to hear/read how others assess and interpret events within our country when viewed through a different geopolitical lens.
I understand the skepticism with which you view many of the more "out there" conspiracy theories and, frankly, feel the same . . . most of the time. Then our elected officials and their bureaucratic minions (or perhaps it's the other way around) go off the reservation, get caught with their hands in the cookie jar or pants around their ankles, and my confidence plummets and my suspicion soars.
Perhaps our saving grace will ultimately be that regardless of the power usurped by our government, their demonstrable ineptitude will forever prevent them from executing whatever Orwellian plots they may seek to impose on their own citizens.
America suffered a shock to our collective psyche on 9/11 and we have not responded well. An event which might have pulled this country together in a constructive manner has resulted in even greater and more bitter partisan division. The United States is going through some of the largest demographic and economic shifts we have ever faced and the the boat is a rockin'.
But we'll get it together, sooner or later. As Churchill said, “You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.” ;)
Again, I appreciate your comments and your perspective.
Fist off I want to thank the people who took their time to answer in a proper manner. Second, I want to make some clarifications wrt my person, my "mentality" and my experience. I have taken no offense to anything that has been said, just want to expound a bit.
I grew up during the latter part of the cold war, so I am no stranger to having an actual physical threat as a next door neighbor. The Soviet Union had forces deployed only a few kms from our border in 1968, so our military was on full alert. My father was serving at the time, and was standing his post.
I have grown up reading our history from WW2, and spoken to many of the resistance fighters who fought Nazi Germany, and who lived in an occupied country. I appreciate their experiences, their sacrifices and their lessons imparted to me.
I have deployed to conflict zones, and seen first hand what tyranny and abusive government can do.
The last thing I am is a conformist, or indoctrinated in any way. I make my own decisions and form my own opinions, based on various factors; life experience, values, belief system and so forth.
I understand and appreciate the 2A fight. Although we have nothing comparable to that right here, weapon ownership is limited to sports shooting and hunting, I see the same mentality here as the anti-2A crowd in the US is displaying. The left/liberals over here want to ban all semi-auto guns, in order to reduce firearm murder rates. Never mind that most murders here are comitted with knives. Pure emotional and ideological argumentation, no logic or facts applied at all.
I am all for the government to be kept in check through oversight provisions, in order to ensure that the elected officials acts in the nations best interest. The same with the secret services/intelligence services, the need to act according to the laws that apply to them; we have laws for both police and military intelligence operations. If people abuse their appointed powers or are otherwise conducting themselves in an irresponsive manner, they should be punished. We have seen it here several times during the last 8 years with our socialist government, officials that have been more concerned with furthering their own personal agendas, rather than sticking to either party politics or national interest. Fortunately, many have been forced to leave their jobs.
The biggest failure on our part was after July 22 2011, when our Prime Minister did not accept responsibility for what happened, and did not step down. His goverment alone had made regular cuts to police budgets over the years, resulting in a police force inadequately staffed, equipped or trained to handle that kind of situation. His rule of the country the last eight years has been compared to the government we had pre-WW2 who downplayed the threat posed by Nazi Germany, and kept downsizing our nation's military.
I have no illusions about our nation's security services/intelligence services being squeaky clean, partly because I have been to several briefings and training that has confirmed this. Unfortunately the public will never know how these services operate, many times successfully, because if they did find out, methods and techniques could be compromised. Some of these things would probably appear to be abuse of power, depriving people of their rights etc, but the Secret Services Oversight Committee would find out if they truly went outside any authority granted to them by law, and it would be stopped. Both the military intelligence service and the SSOC have denounced the claims from Snowden/Greenwald that the NSA has been spying ON Norway, and that the data is actually Norwegian military intelligence from Afghanistan, shared with the NSA. As I understand it, there is no consensus as to wether or not there have been any actual violations of the 4th amendment as part of this surveillance.
I also look with worry at how our society is evolving/devolving, depending on your stance, from a society where patriotism was in the forefront, to a society where entitlement seems to be the norm. "I am, therefore I deserve shit".
Now, the statements/claims that I have a hard time understanding, and have doubts about, are the theories that claim that the US gov is behind such incidents as 9/11, Newtown, Boston et al. It does not make sense, and the claimed intent behind orchestrating these events does not make sense. I also see where the gov seems to have overstepped and made grave mistakes, such as the Benghazi situation, the IRS-Tea Party scandal etc.
Then again, it would probably be a fruitless endeavor to argue back and forth on these issues. What is more perhaps more interesting is where would you like your country to go? What must change in order to correct the current course?
I'm the furthest thing from a tin foil hatter. I see .gov ineptitude from the inside. What I see along with said ineptitude is an equal ineptitude regarding constitutional law. We have people specifically trained in EEO and diversity. We have a staff of trained lawyers whose tasking appears to be making cases against citizens when they violate regulations and laws, hanging low level employees out to dry when they make a mistake or implement a bad policy that goes sideways, yet somehow miraculously find ways to declare insane policies dreamed up by peter principle idiots to be “legal” under the law. Overall, we don’t have anyone on the inside designated to say “No.” That would not sit well with the powers that be. (caveat: I know one Office of Chief Counsel lawyer in DC I trust to be a voice of dissent when the mutual admiration society meetings are held. One.)
Now the real problem starts in the judiciary. Far too many of them simply drink whatever flavor of koolaid the .gov lawyers serve them, declaring it delicious and good for everyone. The problem is that they are advocates for The Law and not the citizen. They defend the law with such zeal that they run roughshod over the concept of “justice for all”. It becomes “justice for the law and whomever can afford to buy their own outcome”.
In America, we’ve gotten so far down the rabbit hole that from whence we came is no longer visible. Positions of power tend to attract shitheads. They recognize that accountability is so difficult to achieve, they can run their own agenda with little repercussion. We have a two party system for which turf protection is FAR more important than good of the country. In short, that is the beginning of the end. It’s been happening for a couple of decades now, but in the past five years it’s shifted into a higher gear and the throttle is on the firewall. Those of us who are raising flags and sounding alarms are decried as “alarmist” and “tin foilers”. I have little doubt that every fallen empire in history has had its share. Whether it’s 100 years, 250 years or a thousand, they all fall in due time. It’s almost never from external attack as has been mentioned. Far more often, it’s from the “good intentions” of those in power. They do indeed pave the road to hell.
What it would take to change is three things:
Elimination of arrogance. We can and will fall if the course isn't corrected.
Knowledge that history does indeed repeat itself, and we are not immune from it.
Restoration of an individual sense of personal responsibility and volunteerism.
I also see where the gov seems to have overstepped and made grave mistakes, such as the Benghazi situation, the IRS-Tea Party scandal etc.
Never underestimate the impact of large scale combined with bureaucratic ineptness...
Ex: I've ridden trains in Norway (and Austria, Switzerland, etc).
And I've ridden AM-TRAK.
There is no comparison, and its a fair analogy. AMTRAK did not intend to be inept, much less evil. But a third world experience of being stuck on a train for hours with nonfunctional toilets, dining car sold out of of everything, and 2-3 hours late is the result of bureaucracy, unions, and a simple lack of care. But they are we also capable of the best train travel I've ever had. Its just hit or miss.
While I did not enjoy the movie "Brazil", anyone who has dealt with US Federal agencies (DHS, IRS, EPA, etc) understands the big gov threat well.
I worry about your hydration, my friend, and the risks of autoerotic asphyxiation. :D
That, and the availability of .22LR ammo.
While a system function test is required maintenance per the user manual it tends to just be visual stress relief. Also not really into the self asphyxiation thing, never really understood the attraction.
montanadave
12-30-13, 13:35
While a system function test is required maintenance per the user manual it tends to just be visual stress relief. Also not really into the self asphyxiation thing, never really understood the attraction.
To fellow members, I apologize for the thread drift . . . but I just can't resist posting this cartoon because I love it so:
22371
While a system function test is required maintenance per the user manual it tends to just be visual stress relief. Also not really into the self asphyxiation thing, never really understood the attraction.
Tends to be an issue among elderly men. Loss of sensation and whatnot.
BTW, you can save time by combining your love of porn and Cheetos into one item. :)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o3XGUJGBuYs/SnIeSPJlECI/AAAAAAAABdE/OPIQrtStNmY/s1600/cheetos-girl1.jpg
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-30-13, 19:31
There is thread drift, and then there is thread tsunami where you get swept miles away from your original spot.
Magic_Salad0892
12-31-13, 01:29
My porn buying and viewing habits would stun and amaze the entire internet into a state of awe that even pictures of my gun collection couldn't produce.
Lol. I could put your porn viewing habits to shame. We've PM'd about why.
My favorite Snowden quote:
Snowden said he instigated one of the biggest government leaks in U.S. history to inform the public of what he called "the greatest danger to our freedom and way of life."
So that about raps it up...Executive, Legislative, and now Judicial branches with 24/7 media support for "We the Sheeple"
“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
― Benjamin Franklin
he did this while running directly to possibly the two biggest offenders on the subject of domestic surveillance and freedom as a way of life on earth herself.
I hate that anyone would even have a positive thought about this traitor. he did it for money, not for some high brow discussion about freedom.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-31-13, 08:06
he did this while running directly to possibly the two biggest offenders on the subject of domestic surveillance and freedom as a way of life on earth herself.
I hate that anyone would even have a positive thought about this traitor. he did it for money, not for some high brow discussion about freedom.
Sure, he is rolling in the dough...
If someone came to us from China or Russia with details about how they were tapping every phone call, spying on everyone, adding back doors thru out the e-universe.... would we call him a criminal and send him back? Or would we call him a hero for pointing out the un-American ways of these dictatorships? I'd love for someone to ask Obama that one.
Eurodriver
12-31-13, 08:20
Sure, he is rolling in the dough...
If someone came to us from China or Russia with details about how they were tapping every phone call, spying on everyone, adding back doors thru out the e-universe.... would we call him a criminal and send him back? Or would we call him a hero for pointing out the un-American ways of these dictatorships? I'd love for someone to ask Obama that one.
Exactly.
Snowden is a hero; he completely ruined any chance of having a normal life to out the Federal government. I only wish I had the courage to do that if I were in his position.
Eurodriver
12-31-13, 08:21
Lol. I could put your porn viewing habits to shame. We've PM'd about why.
This needs to be elaborated on. I've seen what Steyr is up to, and I don't see how one could compete.
montanadave
12-31-13, 10:47
I have yet to decide whether Snowden is saint or sinner, though, like most, I imagine he will end up as a little of both.
Regardless, I can't get on board with those condemning his actions because he failed to exhaust all available and officially sanctioned "whistleblower" procedures in place. Had he sought to go through official channels with his concerns about these programs, the story would never have seen the light of day and we would not be nearly as engaged in the current public debate about government security overreach and abuse of power.
Which, in my opinion, is a debate long overdue. This nation's response to 9/11 took us down some very dark paths and it's high time we flipped on the lights so we can at least try to steer ourselves back onto the road.
Sure, he is rolling in the dough...
If someone came to us from China or Russia with details about how they were tapping every phone call, spying on everyone, adding back doors thru out the e-universe.... would we call him a criminal and send him back? Or would we call him a hero for pointing out the un-American ways of these dictatorships? I'd love for someone to ask Obama that one.
if someone from russia or china came to us, it'd be a civil rights upgrade for them and for russia and china. you failed to acknowledge the basis of what i was saying. what he did is clearly treasonous because his supposed cause is not even supported by where he fled. he could have gone to any other country, unwilling to pay him, but give him asylum based on his oh-so-benevolent action. obviously he wasn't in it for benevolence. the media and other avenues will keep singing his praise while all our enemies get a leg up on us.
Belmont31R
12-31-13, 14:56
if someone from russia or china came to us, it'd be a civil rights upgrade for them and for russia and china. you failed to acknowledge the basis of what i was saying. what he did is clearly treasonous because his supposed cause is not even supported by where he fled. he could have gone to any other country, unwilling to pay him, but give him asylum based on his oh-so-benevolent action. obviously he wasn't in it for benevolence. the media and other avenues will keep singing his praise while all our enemies get a leg up on us.
I don't care about his personal motivation but I am glad he did what he did. Im not sure why people are so focused on him when the gov has been violating EVERY American's rights with impunity...but its Snowden that is the problem here?
BufordTJustice
12-31-13, 17:42
Lol. I could put your porn viewing habits to shame. We've PM'd about why.
Put it to shame in terms of quantity or quality?
BufordTJustice
12-31-13, 17:44
I don't care about his personal motivation but I am glad he did what he did. Im not sure why people are so focused on him when the gov has been violating EVERY American's rights with impunity...but its Snowden that is the problem here?
Agreed. This is like getting hung-up on Alvin York's true intentions during his multiple acts of valor.
The point is, Snowden lifted the veil and we benefit. Also, if anyone doesn't think that there are US assets out there that would Arkancide his ass in a New York f*cking second, they are sadly mistaken. He was wise to partner with Russia (whom Obama fears) if nothing else but to satisfy his self preservation instinct.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-31-13, 18:15
if someone from russia or china came to us, it'd be a civil rights upgrade for them and for russia and china. you failed to acknowledge the basis of what i was saying. what he did is clearly treasonous because his supposed cause is not even supported by where he fled. he could have gone to any other country, unwilling to pay him, but give him asylum based on his oh-so-benevolent action. obviously he wasn't in it for benevolence. the media and other avenues will keep singing his praise while all our enemies get a leg up on us.
Dude, Tossed_Salad and StyerOff are the ones that should be ones typing with one hand, what is your excuse for not giving the shift key some key lovin'?
It is for your very reason that the whole NSA thing pisses me off. I have no romantic version of America as being perfect, but at least we were the white hat guys and we are getting soiled with all these Orwellian examples of how our own govt is spying on us. Unless you live in an opaque Faraday cage how many times does the NSA touch you a day? I used to think that was a tin foil hat trick, but its actually true.
We have gone to what is ever possible in a technological sense to address the threat from some goat herders from around the world. We need these tools to stop terrorism? We had these tools and they didn't stop terrorism. A screaming note from the Russians and some odd behavior didn't stop the Marathon bombers from running their op. How about using the low hanging fruit before we cut down the tree to make sure that none of the fruit is rotten.
SECURE THE ****ING BORDER so that we don't have to live in a fish bowl.
Belmont31R
12-31-13, 19:36
Not to mention the underwear bomber who's own dad tried to warn us he was up to no good, and was planning something. Didn't stop that attack.
The 9/11 guys were in a folder on someones desk when that attack happened.
Yet we need 24/7 spying on every American to stop terrorism? They can't even stop an attack using good old fashioned law enforcement techniques. I don't believe for a second that terrorism is the real target here. Its already been exposed that this intel is being us in regular day to day convictions, and they are actively hiding this from defendants and courts.
And those of you who keep bringing up the fact he fled out of the country...they have put NSA whistleblowers in jail before and none of them had the magnitude of information Snowden took with him. If he stayed here he'd be in the grey bar motel for years at minimum and the information getting leaked wouldn't have made it out. The conventional method doesn't anymore. Look at what the ATF does to its whistleblowers.
if someone from russia or china came to us, it'd be a civil rights upgrade for them and for russia and china. you failed to acknowledge the basis of what i was saying. what he did is clearly treasonous because his supposed cause is not even supported by where he fled. he could have gone to any other country, unwilling to pay him, but give him asylum based on his oh-so-benevolent action. obviously he wasn't in it for benevolence. the media and other avenues will keep singing his praise while all our enemies get a leg up on us.
A leg up on us? Our gov shouldn't have been doing what they were doing in the first place let alone keep doing it.
Sent from my DROID X2
Agreed. And I think it goes to show how numb we as a society have become to gov't intrusion to the point that it is now just a fact of life. I have said this before in other threads about similar subjects. It's not just about the NSA spying, just like it's not about rogue cops. But, when one looks at the totality of the situation and we start to digest politicians running amok, reckless spending and budgets, militarization of the police, IRS being used against people who don't buy the Obama Lie, Fast and Furious, the use of drones, NDAA, Patriot Act, etc... it starts to paint a picture reminiscent of what we saw in other countries up to the point where they became police states.
These are the same countries that we for years attempted to overthrow and condemn for their actions. Granted, we haven't had American citizens spirited away to camps and beaten/tortured but it nonetheless should serve as warning.
I don't care about his personal motivation but I am glad he did what he did. Im not sure why people are so focused on him when the gov has been violating EVERY American's rights with impunity...but its Snowden that is the problem here?
An Undocumented Worker
12-31-13, 21:56
http://www.dailytech.com/Tax+and+Spy+How+the+NSA+Can+Hack+Any+American+Stores+Data+15+Years/article34010.htm
long article details just how screwed we are.
Agreed. And I think it goes to show how numb we as a society have become to gov't intrusion to the point that it is now just a fact of life. I have said this before in other threads about similar subjects. It's not just about the NSA spying, just like it's not about rogue cops. But, when one looks at the totality of the situation and we start to digest politicians running amok, reckless spending and budgets, militarization of the police, IRS being used against people who don't buy the Obama Lie, Fast and Furious, the use of drones, NDAA, Patriot Act, etc... it starts to paint a picture reminiscent of what we saw in other countries up to the point where they became police states.
These are the same countries that we for years attempted to overthrow and condemn for their actions. Granted, we haven't had American citizens spirited away to camps and beaten/tortured but it nonetheless should serve as warning.
Not yet, anyways.
Belmont31R
12-31-13, 22:38
Not yet, anyways.
Yes we do. We have a bigger per capita prisoner population than China and Russia combined.
Not yet, anyways.
Yea but whose to say what's going on with all those extrajudicial activities assuming their occurring that is. Blackmail probably being the most likely.
Sorta puts the SCOTUS decision on obamacare in even more shady light....
Sent from my DROID X2
Yea but whose to say what's going on with all those extrajudicial activities assuming their occurring that is. Blackmail probably being the most likely.
Sorta puts the SCOTUS decision on obamacare in even more shady light....
Sent from my DROID X2
I don't doubt for a second that there are super shady and most likely downwright despicable things going on, in the shadows. My point was, No, Folks aren't being carted off in Cattle Cars via Rail, just yet. Don't doubt a bit, that it could wind up coming to that.
Lol. I could put your porn viewing habits to shame. We've PM'd about why.
Not sure about that, I'm older and thus have been at it longer. I also tend to take my collection a bit seriously.
http://imageshack.us/a/img111/8093/00000000102.jpg
Prison population for committing crimes (whether we agree or not with the laws). What I am talking about is STASI/NAZI/KGB type stuff where people are rounding up and sent away for not singing the national anthem.
Yes we do. We have a bigger per capita prisoner population than China and Russia combined.
Not to mention the underwear bomber who's own dad tried to warn us he was up to no good, and was planning something. Didn't stop that attack.
The 9/11 guys were in a folder on someones desk when that attack happened.
Yet we need 24/7 spying on every American to stop terrorism? They can't even stop an attack using good old fashioned law enforcement techniques. I don't believe for a second that terrorism is the real target here. Its already been exposed that this intel is being us in regular day to day convictions, and they are actively hiding this from defendants and courts.
And those of you who keep bringing up the fact he fled out of the country...they have put NSA whistleblowers in jail before and none of them had the magnitude of information Snowden took with him. If he stayed here he'd be in the grey bar motel for years at minimum and the information getting leaked wouldn't have made it out. The conventional method doesn't anymore. Look at what the ATF does to its whistleblowers.
I'll use this post as the basis for my comment.
1. Some on here feel that 9/11, Boston, Underwear bomber etc should have been stopped prior to the incidents taking place. I'll assume that this sentiment is born from knowledge gained after the fact. The intelligence community and federal LE probably receive thousands, if not tens or hundreds of thousands, indicators, tips, pieces of information every day. All of this info/noise needs to be followed up, verified with secondary/tertiary sources and assessed wrt reliability and probability. Depending on where the information is from, who it is from, available assets and so forth, it can be a time consuming process. SS info is rarely categorized as highly reliable information, unless the source is well known, well placed with a history of loyalty and providing good info.
Who is doing the vetting? People. Human Beings. This means that mistakes will be made. If there is a disconnect between the piece of information and the analytic ability of the analyst, important info could be missed. Neccessary follow up will not be done. This hardly qualifies as complicity. As stated previously, there is a lot of info that needs to be vetted, and only so many case officers or analysts.
Anders Behring Breivik was flagged in march of 2011 after having purchased chemicals through a polish distributor. Two months later he bought 6 tons of fertilizer. Two months after that he blew up the government building killing 8 and wounding several more. He then continued to Utøya, and killed 69 People, mostly youths. No other lone wolf gunman/terrorist has killed more people. After the fact it is easy to assert that the police intelligence service should have picked up on him, and stopped him way sooner. That is not realistic. The superficial check that was done turned up nada. Had they dug deeper they might have discovered that he was active on right wing discussion forums, he was very vocal about islam being a problem and that the politicians were at fault. They might have discovery that he lived a solitary life, that he had few friends and had secluded himself from normal society. All of these traits will, for someone who is aware, point towards someone who is being radicalized. In Anders Behring Breiviks case, he was self-radicalizing. Maybe then the correct flag would have been raised.
We learned a costly lesson. I have yet to see any changes or improvements, 2 1/2 years later. People are still as naive, even the government.
In an ideal world, all attacks would be thwarted. We don't live in an ideal world.
For those of you who do not know, a threat assessment is based around the following threats; Terrorism, Espionage, Sabotage, Subversion, Organized Crime. TESSOC for short. Each subcategory is described in detail, and addresses the different issues/problem areas of each category. The full threat assessment is usually classified, but at least here the different intelligence services issue a de-classified yearly threat assessment report for the general public to read. Most only read what is mentioned by MSM when it is released. Each category is "graded" by assessing likelyhood vs. will/ability of threats vs. vulnerability. For most western countries, espionage by foreign countries is the most severe threat; both defense and industrial. This kind of activity is handled through counter-intelligence work; basically keeping the foreign spies under surveillance. One reason why espionage is viewed as the most severe threat is because of the human factor. People are not mindful enough.
Terrorism is probably at a mid to high threat level, based on the country in question. The reason for this is that terrorist attacks are hard to foresee/predict, so we are usually very vulnerable wrt to potential loss/damage when it does occur. Sabotage is usually at a low to mid rate, again on a country to country basis. It is low because there usually is no lingering or specific threat to worry about. Subversion is usually moot in most western countries due to free speech. Subversion does happen, but is protected by free speech. OC will vary by country to country, due to various different national issues (weapons, drugs, gangs, trafficking, money laundering etc.).
2. It has been suggested that many actions taken by the government after 9/11 is about control, and have severely restricted the freedom of law abiding citizens. The latest being the NSA "spy" activity. Some claim that PRISM constitutes a breach of the 4th and 10th amendments of the BoR. As far as I can tell, no definitve conclusion has been reached either way.
I do find it highly unlikely that everyday communication will be flagged by this program, that is not the intent behind it. Have there been any specific cases where PRISM has led to faulty action against an innocent? Sure the potential is there, but has it happened? This and other programs is regulated through FISA, correct? What are the chances that unlawful use of this program would slip though the cracks and avoid oversight? Has it happened? The threat to a society will not only come from outside it's borders, but also from within. Gun smuggling, human trafficking, illegal immigration, drug smuggling and so forth. There are always people inside the borders who is helping, facilitating etc. To stop all surveillance inside ones country, only focusing on external threats will not yield good results.
Speaking of potential for abuse, the biggest threats to the individual lies with commercial actors, and over here we see unfaithful servants all the time. Cell providers, internet providers, banks, power companies, e-mail providers, doctors et al all have shitty track records. We do our tax returns electronically, and one year EVERYONE who logged on to the tax administration's system could see the tax returns of one single individual, everyone saw the same account. Are these actors not a threat?
It is claimed that this program limits the freedoms of the law abiding citizen. What about people who surround when you are out and about? Are you mindful about what you talk about and with whom? Do you analyze what you say based on where you are? Is the guy sitting at the next table over just a random stranger, or is he actually a GRU operative just grabbing a coffee on his way to the Russian consulate, or maybe a highly skilled thief/burglar out gathering info on his next possible victim?
I totally agree that government should not limit the way we can live our lives, but the discussion seems to lack a bit of perspective and is very focused on government transgressions, and not on threats in everyday life, which in my opinion is more likely to actually materialize.
For those of you who believe that the government is seeking to expand it's control, what is the desired end state? When has the government reached it's goal of control? What is the next step when this control is achieved?
Wrt the leaks, why is the credibility of the information provided by Snowden/Greenwald rated so highly? It has been made clear by many foreign intelligence services that they have misrepresented information about NSA activity against allied nations. Why is a journalist and a self-proclaimed whistle blower viewed as more credible than the agencies themselves? Can they not have illegitimate reasons for doing this?
3. Someone said that there have been cases where the FBI has goaded some idiots to commit a crime, and then arresting them. My impression was that this was seen as an unfair approach, maybe even set up to ensure results. The end result was lack of success with more serious cases. The legality pertaining to how information or intelligence was gathered was also questioned.
What would be a better result? That criminals or terrorists succeed, just so that you can avoid surveillance? I would rather criminals or terrorists be stopped prior to doing bad things, than the opposite.
Wrt the initial paragraph, these sting operations are not conducted in a vacuum. The seed was already in place before law enforcement got involved. My assessment is that these operations are executed due to different criteria being fulfilled.
We all know that it is reported when LE fails; are all successful operations reported? I personally know that our guys do a lot of good that is never reported. And never will be. The reason for this is PERSEC and OPSEC. If successes are reported, it can compromise sources and TTP's. If society becomes too transparent, it too can compromise sources and TTP's. How transparent should a society be? I think a society should be as open as possible without becoming vulnerable. I also do not think that the public has a right to know everything, just because of our type of government; a representative democracy. We elect officials in to office, and entrust them to make decisions for us. We can voice our disagreement, and change our vote, but if everybody was to have a say in everything, nothing would be done.
The government needs to maintain a certain degree of secrecy in order to be relevant wrt global politics.
4. Many different opinions have been voiced wrt Snowden; hero, traitor, whistle blower, patriotic, spy and so forth. I think we can all agree on that the documents he released were classified, yes? I have seen other discussion on books written by former service personnell, especially from SOF units, where the characterizations of the authors have been less than complementary. The same with information on successful military strikes and operations by official government representatives, where this has also been met with criticism, and the concensus has been that these people should just STFU.
Why this disconnect? Why is one type of disclosure ok, and the other not? Are Snowden's actions not damaging to the US at all?
I cleary understand and acknowledge that there is a huge social and political divide at the moment, but I am not sure I agree with the assessment that it is a desired state that has been shaped by the government, or that the nation is close to some kind of downfall. I will gladly eat my words as topping on a shit sandwich if I am wrong, but nothing I have seen yet has convinced me.
Moose-Knuckle
01-01-14, 19:01
Yeah, I know . . . I sound like a broken record.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
“It’s really a turnkey situation where it can be turned quickly and become a totalitarian state pretty quickly. The capacity to do that is being set up. If we get the wrong person in office or in government they could make that happen quickly.”
– William Binney 40 year veteran of the NSA and now an Information Privacy Advocate.
“The only way to have perfect security is to have a perfect surveillance state. That’s George Orwell, that’s 1984 . . . that’s what the world would look like".
– Thomas Drake former NSA Senior Official and Information Privacy Advocate
Magic_Salad0892
01-01-14, 19:06
Not sure about that, I'm older and thus have been at it longer. I also tend to take my collection a bit seriously.
http://imageshack.us/a/img111/8093/00000000102.jpg
I don't know if that makes us even, or if you win.
Arctic,
Your insights are most illuminating so thank you for that. In response all I can really say is this; in a perfect world security and protective measures would have no discernible impact whatsoever on freedom and bad guys would be stopped far long before they efforts materialized into something destructive. Like you noted we do not live in a perfect world and more that the simple reality is that government, a government organized and ran by both good natured people as well as fallible, corruptible, egocentric, or power hungry etc, cannot be trusted for inevitably their deeds and desires will run counter to and conflict with liberty. History has demonstrated this to be the case time and time again unfortunately ... power is corrupting and no matter how well natured or intended a particular venture is it will always be abused eventually.
As Americans we cherish our liberty far more than anything else, or atleast we once did anyway ... our principles are not just some random sociocultural or sociopolitical conceptualizations of some random people living on the face of the earth and therefore subject to being ranked and compared against others of other cultures or nitpicked for utility by our own government.
Sent from my DROID X2
You have a judge that is paid out of the same pot of money as the government agents that carry out this spying are paid from. What do you think is going to happen when a court decision comes along?
Why this disconnect? Why is one type of disclosure ok, and the other not? Are Snowden's actions not damaging to the US at all?
Since this is easy, I'll take it.
Snowden's disclosures are damaging to a Presidential administration (similar to Watergate) and an intelligence community that is overstepping their bounds and at times seems to be more focused on violating the rights of US citizens than investigating foreign terrorists.
When former SOF guys disclose techniques and tactics they put fellow military personal at risk who are actively focusing on foreign terrorists and compromising future operations against actual foreign terrorists.
I'm hoping you can discern the huge difference.
And it's not about political preference. Bush 43 put in place huge programs, worst example probably being the Patriot Act, that are nothing more than a tool to deny US citizens their rights so long as the government declares them a "potential terrorist."
Additionally, some of Snowden's disclosures actually go back to the Bush administration as well. I don't feel fine an dandy just because it is "my team" who is screwing up the country and running roughshod over my rights.
Presidents, cabinet members and those involved in domestic intelligence gathering also aren't putting their "lives on the line" to go to bad places and catch bad people who do bad things. To the contrary, people like Hillary Clinton can demonstrate gross incompetence resulting in the deaths of those who go to dangerous places and still be a viable contender to run for President in the future.
FlyingHunter
01-01-14, 21:19
Since this is easy, I'll take it.
Snowden's disclosures are damaging to a Presidential administration (similar to Watergate) and an intelligence community that is overstepping their bounds and at times seems to be more focused on violating the rights of US citizens than investigating foreign terrorists.
When former SOF guys disclose techniques and tactics they put fellow military personal at risk who are actively focusing on foreign terrorists and compromising future operations against actual foreign terrorists.
I'm hoping you can discern the huge difference.
And it's not about political preference. Bush 43 put in place huge programs, worst example probably being the Patriot Act, that are nothing more than a tool to deny US citizens their rights so long as the government declares them a "potential terrorist."
Additionally, some of Snowden's disclosures actually go back to the Bush administration as well. I don't feel fine an dandy just because it is "my team" who is screwing up the country and running roughshod over my rights.
Presidents, cabinet members and those involved in domestic intelligence gathering also aren't putting their "lives on the line" to go to bad places and catch bad people who do bad things. To the contrary, people like Hillary Clinton can demonstrate gross incompetence resulting in the deaths of those who go to dangerous places and still be a viable contender to run for President in the future.
Well said SteyrAUG
Well said SteyrAUG
A Big +1
BufordTJustice
01-01-14, 21:57
A Big +1
Same. Steyer speaks for me as well with that post. I agree 100%.
Magic_Salad0892
01-02-14, 19:10
Same. Steyer speaks for me as well with that post. I agree 100%.
Agreed. Steyr is a damn wordsmith.
Belmont31R
01-02-14, 20:02
What that tells me is that government is ineffective at preventing terrorism, and I don't believe the information they are collecting is being fully cordoned off from normal non-terrorist related criminal investigations. Im not saying Barney Fife in some small town has access to this but I doubt information on other, more serious cases the Feds go after, is being fully withheld.
This is part of the problem with secret laws, secret courts, and secretive agencies. We don't really know, and we need to find out. So far not enough in DC seem willing to open that can of worms up and see what dirt they're stewing in. Same can be said for a lot of other things. The government is simply so massive Congress can no longer be effective in oversight. I don't trust judges, either, when they are put in place by the same people who supposedly authorized all this in the first place. I doubt they are putting people into robes who have a more strict interpretation of the Constitution when they're ignoring it themselves. Kind of a snowball scenario where separation of powers meant to be checks and balances breaks down, and they're all on the same page regarding growing government powers.
I guess this mostly boils down to if you believe government is generally benevolent and trustworthy or inherently bad and untrustworthy. I find myself following the latter when thinking about what our government is doing because of the already penchant for lying politicians have, and especially our president. A president who has overseen numerous scandals that are really quite devious and sinister. People like that do not deserve the people giving them the benefit of the doubt when it certainly looks like the government is violating numerous amendments in the BOR.
.
Snowden's disclosures are damaging to a Presidential administration (similar to Watergate) and an intelligence community that is overstepping their bounds and at times seems to be more focused on violating the rights of US citizens than investigating foreign terrorists.
how is it akin to Watergate? where is the evidence that this information was abused? which senators were snooped? which American conversations were recorded and used by administration officials to gain political advantage? Watergate had its corrective actions, those actions continue to protect the united states population.
When former SOF guys disclose techniques and tactics they put fellow military personal at risk who are actively focusing on foreign terrorists and compromising future operations against actual foreign terrorists.
I'm hoping you can discern the huge difference.
there isn't a huge difference. how can you not imagine that there are people in the intelligence and cyber security fields who have had their programs wrecked. all the advantages they built up with testing and countless amounts of treasure expended to gain programmatic superiority for YOUR benefit, because guess what... when America wins... you kind of win. all that is flushed when leakers leak. what's the most important aspect about the game of poker? secrecy. everyone knows the percentages and the math that goes behind each play, the game theory is already quite well understood by top players, the only edge anyone has is maintenance of secrecy.
it would appear as though many would invite america to lose at everything it does because its government is not ____________ enough. fill in the blank with whatever domestic political squabbling you would like.
And it's not about political preference. Bush 43 put in place huge programs, worst example probably being the Patriot Act, that are nothing more than a tool to deny US citizens their rights so long as the government declares them a "potential terrorist."
the question is this then, how would you do it? would you just not do? what's your solution?
Belmont31R
01-02-14, 20:24
how is it akin to Watergate? where is the evidence that this information was abused? which senators were snooped? which American conversations were recorded and used by administration officials to gain political advantage? Watergate had its corrective actions, those actions continue to protect the united states population.
there isn't a huge difference. how can you not imagine that there are people in the intelligence and cyber security fields who have had their programs wrecked. all the advantages they built up with testing and countless amounts of treasure expended to gain programmatic superiority for YOUR benefit, because guess what... when America wins... you kind of win. all that is flushed when leakers leak. what's the most important aspect about the game of poker? secrecy. everyone knows the percentages and the math that goes behind each play, the game theory is already quite well understood by top players, the only edge anyone has is maintenance of secrecy.
it would appear as though many would invite america to lose at everything it does because its government is not ____________ enough. fill in the blank with whatever domestic political squabbling you would like.
the question is this then, how would you do it? would you just not do? what's your solution?
You're asking the wrong questions by trying to get people to answer a negative. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Its on the government to prove their actions are legal not that they cordon everything behind the National Security wall, and then tell people to pound sand when asking questions or flat out lie. Clapper has already lied while under oath during a Congressional hearing, and you expect us to believe everything is on the up and up?
The government is not America. The people are America. The government is only something we allow to operate with our permission.
The simple answer is we don't see other countries with terrorist problems. Funny how the two most involved countries in the middle east, the US and the UK, have problems with terrorists but countries that don't have their finger in everything don't. Russia is in a similar boat but for different reasons. They have a land border with extremists while we have a land border with a 3rd world country.
Anyways....big government is not what I call succeeding but everyone has their own definition of success.
This is part of the problem with secret laws, secret courts, and secretive agencies. We don't really know, and we need to find out. So far not enough in DC seem willing to open that can of worms up and see what dirt they're stewing in. Same can be said for a lot of other things. The government is simply so massive Congress can no longer be effective in oversight. I don't trust judges, either, when they are put in place by the same people who supposedly authorized all this in the first place. I doubt they are putting people into robes who have a more strict interpretation of the Constitution when they're ignoring it themselves. Kind of a snowball scenario where separation of powers meant to be checks and balances breaks down, and they're all on the same page regarding growing government powers.
so you don't like any of it? you don't like a government run by humans. would you like a government run by robots? and if it were run by robots, how would the robots deal with the law when things get complicated. we see examples of the sticking points of law every single day. all united states citizens have rights... well what about NON united states citizens within united states borders or worse yet, within united states territories (there's a difference)? abortion is murder, well when is a zygote considered human? after it attaches to the uterine wall? before? look at how California has dealt with gun laws. find out what the laws are then circumvent them with various ingenious contraptions.
I find it disturbing that you would suggest "people like that do not deserve the people giving them the benefit of the doubt." are these people that much different? aren't all people just fundamentally self interested, self preserving creatures? if they are what makes you better than them? if you were faced with their situations what would you do differently? I think it's tragic that so many oversimplify the matters at hand in order to render a haughty judgment based on some sort of idealism. are you truly an impractical person at heart? would you really sacrifice all practicality in order to uphold ideals? do you fully understand the implications of such ideals?
I guess this mostly boils down to if you believe government is generally benevolent and trustworthy or inherently bad and untrustworthy. I find myself following the latter when thinking about what our government is doing because of the already penchant for lying politicians have, and especially our president. A president who has overseen numerous scandals that are really quite devious and sinister. People like that do not deserve the people giving them the benefit of the doubt when it certainly looks like the government is violating numerous amendments in the BOR.
it does boil down to whether you believe the government is good or bad. this I can say this assuredly. it's comprised of humans. humans faced with difficult problems to attempt to resolve. is every single one of these cogs sinister? is the whole just so well orchestrated that it can strike this evil chord in such unison that it offends your sensibilities? bad organizations have existed in the past. this American government has a lot of decentralization in order to avoid the problem of one maestro. I think it's a pretty good system. I find it difficult to see an example of a better one. if you have one i'd like to see it.
Belmont31R
01-02-14, 20:38
so you don't like any of it? you don't like a government run by humans. would you like a government run by robots? and if it were run by robots, how would the robots deal with the law when things get complicated. we see examples of the sticking points of law every single day. all united states citizens have rights... well what about NON united states citizens within united states borders or worse yet, within united states territories (there's a difference)? abortion is murder, well when is a zygote considered human? after it attaches to the uterine wall? before? look at how California has dealt with gun laws. find out what the laws are then circumvent them with various ingenious contraptions.
I find it disturbing that you would suggest "people like that do not deserve the people giving them the benefit of the doubt." are these people that much different? aren't all people just fundamentally self interested, self preserving creatures? if they are what makes you better than them? if you were faced with their situations what would you do differently? I think it's tragic that so many oversimplify the matters at hand in order to render a haughty judgment based on some sort of idealism. are you truly an impractical person at heart? would you really sacrifice all practicality in order to uphold ideals? do you fully understand the implications of such ideals?
it does boil down to whether you believe the government is good or bad. this I can say this assuredly. it's comprised of humans. humans faced with difficult problems to attempt to resolve. is every single one of these cogs sinister? is the whole just so well orchestrated that it can strike this evil chord in such unison that it offends your sensibilities? I find that very difficult to believe. the mere entropy that needs to be overcome to create the situation you disdain is large, mainly because the institution is large, because the numbers and the math are large.
Putting words in my mouth is getting old.
Our Founders knew the inherent nature of man and why they suggested the government we got. A small government with limited powers. Not a government so huge accountability went out the window a long time ago, and where we have secret courts with secret laws and all that jazz. I believe in a limited government that does what Section 1-8 was meant to accomplish...not what over 200 years of twisted opinions and outright ignoring of the law has made things into.
All humans have rights, and they are the same whether in the US or anywhere else. The variable is not where the human is but how shitty of a government there is where they are at.
Most people have a self interest and a desire for self preservation. Thats why the government should be small so a majority of the people have the best chance of accomplishing what they can in life. Not a small minority (the government) telling the other 90% how to live.
That very same self interest and self preservation can be used in bad ways, such as an overbearing government, either through manipulation (Nazi Germany) or with plunder (the US). Very few people are going to have the cajones to quit a career and tell their family tough luck because I just quit my job. Theres a good reason 10 of the 12 most wealthiest counties are closest to DC. They pay good, and its secure work.
montanadave
01-02-14, 20:42
The ends don't justify the means.
If, in the interest of protecting the people, our government feels compelled to violate the constitutional rights of the people they have sworn to serve then the "American experiment" has failed.
Triny,
The morality, efficacy, and even utility of these endeavors is an entirely separate issue. For the sake of simplicity just because they have been deemed lawful does not make them constitutional. Our government SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ENGAGING IN SUCH ACTIVITIES IN THE FIRST PLACE. Our constitution prohibits the government from doing so period, end of story....
Our rights our sacred and transcend who we are as Americans .. you speak of entropy as if the government sits idle. It's either shrinking or growing. History demonstrated over and over again that the natural trajectory of government is to grow and history has also shown that when government grows it is very bad for liberty, always...
Sent from my DROID X2
Putting words in my mouth is getting old.
Our Founders knew the inherent nature of man and why they suggested the government we got. A small government with limited powers. Not a government so huge accountability went out the window a long time ago, and where we have secret courts with secret laws and all that jazz. I believe in a limited government that does what Section 1-8 was meant to accomplish...not what over 200 years of twisted opinions and outright ignoring of the law has made things into.
how does a small government serve a large population? can you please answer that? can you please indicate what you would do if you were given the thought experiment of being thousands of people who have to specialize in thousands of functions to serve millions? all i'm asking is that you help me out with the mathematics.
All humans have rights, and they are the same whether in the US or anywhere else. The variable is not where the human is but how shitty of a government there is where they are at.
you keep contending we're at the bottom of the shitpile... where I contend we're at the top, the least shitty. i'm still challenging you to find a better example which you keep refusing to do. it's all shit to you... but you're not exactly telling me how unshit is possible.
Most people have a self interest and a desire for self preservation. Thats why the government should be small so a majority of the people have the best chance of accomplishing what they can in life. Not a small minority (the government) telling the other 90% how to live.
I think the united states has the most people that have a "best chance" at accomplishing what they can in life. in fact more than at any other time in history. look at all the entitlement programs, it's only a matter of tripping and falling into anything. America makes is so easy. so again... what would you be doing differently? especially given the fact that you JUST said MAJORITY of people having the BEST chance. not only the rich and capable. just to crack a joke, you almost sounded socialist for a second.
That very same self interest and self preservation can be used in bad ways, such as an overbearing government, either through manipulation (Nazi Germany) or with plunder (the US). Very few people are going to have the cajones to quit a career and tell their family tough luck because I just quit my job. Theres a good reason 10 of the 12 most wealthiest counties are closest to DC. They pay good, and its secure work.
I absolutely agree. self preservation will make people stay in a job that may or may not be doing good things. it does take people of principle to guide any institution. the government is not devoid of those people.
sofrep has a video series called inside the team room
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syuZkXKewZk&list=PLL_y2R0Xg1nUHG_nyzLO0lvjnfQllqIEp
in it they articulate that every group has turds. it's true, the government has turds, but it's also true that turds aren't the majority. majorities of turds very quickly dissolve an institution. it's also true that very few people are going to purposely run an institution into the ground; running America into the ground would not help those who want America to do well. however, i recognize this perspective will serve those who say that government tries to make itself larger to perpetuates its own agenda. this is true and there absolutely should be a fight, a pressure against that motion. I believe our system still has that capability. it is not showing well to be sure, I would agree with every part of that sentiment. spending should be reigned in. a lot of stuff should be cut. to some degree we should stop caring about others more than we care about ourselves (self preservation).
i would also agree it is very much easier with a large institution that has lots of inertia for foul play to go on and for detrimental activity to go unnoticed. the government is rife with this. however, does that make it ill intentioned? does that make it all bad? do you think large institutions like google, facebook, g&e, exxon etc don't have similar problems? they're so much better at hiding it than the .gov. I would even agree that they are faster at stamping out fires. the government is quite hindered at stamping out fires not because it's self preserving... but because it's got the obligation to do no wrong, to answer to you and the internet etc.
i'm still going to challenge you to answer my very difficult question. what would you be doing differently? when you answer I will have questions to ask about what eventualities come from your system and architecture of governance.
Belmont31R
01-02-14, 21:59
how does a small government serve a large population? can you please answer that? can you please indicate what you would do if you were given the thought experiment of being thousands of people who have to specialize in thousands of functions to serve millions? all i'm asking is that you help me out with the mathematics.
By getting out of the way.
you keep contending we're at the bottom of the shitpile... where I contend we're at the top, the least shitty. i'm still challenging you to find a better example which you keep refusing to do. it's all shit to you... but you're not exactly telling me how unshit is possible.
Never said we're at the bottom.
I think the united states has the most people that have a "best chance" at accomplishing what they can in life. in fact more than at any other time in history. look at all the entitlement programs, it's only a matter of tripping and falling into anything. America makes is so easy. so again... what would you be doing differently? especially given the fact that you JUST said MAJORITY of people having the BEST chance. not only the rich and capable. just to crack a joke, you almost sounded socialist for a second.
Entitlement is the opposite of chance. Success is not guaranteed. There are plenty of bright guys out there who are never going to be rich. Thats life, and thats fine. I don't have the people skills or entrepreneurial skill to become a CEO of a big company. Im content with that, and I don't mind it. But Im not entitled to anything from anyone else's money.
I absolutely agree. self preservation will make people stay in a job that may or may not be doing good things. it does take people of principle to guide any institution. the government is not devoid of those people.
sofrep has a video series called inside the team room
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syuZkXKewZk&list=PLL_y2R0Xg1nUHG_nyzLO0lvjnfQllqIEp
in it they articulate that every group has turds. it's true, the government has turds, but it's also true that turds aren't the majority. majorities of turds very quickly dissolve an institution. it's also true that very few people are going to purposely run an institution into the ground; running America into the ground would not help those who want America to do well. however, i recognize this perspective will serve those who say that government tries to make itself larger to perpetuates its own agenda. this is true and there absolutely should be a fight, a pressure against that motion. I believe our system still has that capability. it is not showing well to be sure, I would agree with every part of that sentiment. spending should be reigned in. a lot of stuff should be cut. to some degree we should stop caring about others more than we care about ourselves (self preservation).
i would also agree it is very much easier with a large institution that has lots of inertia for foul play to go on and for detrimental activity to go unnoticed. the government is rife with this. however, does that make it ill intentioned? does that make it all bad? do you think large institutions like google, facebook, g&e, exxon etc don't have similar problems? they're so much better at hiding it than the .gov. I would even agree that they are faster at stamping out fires. the government is quite hindered at stamping out fires not because it's self preserving... but because it's got the obligation to do no wrong, to answer to you and the internet etc.
i'm still going to challenge you to answer my very difficult question. what would you be doing differently? when you answer I will have questions to ask about what eventualities come from your system and architecture of governance.
Government is inherently bad which is why we need as little of it as possible to do what is best for humanity. Capitalism with a little bit of government to make capitalism work best. Things like contract enforcement, common law, and various laissez faire concepts. That is what boosted us from a former colony to the worlds only super power. It wasn't socialism or big government. The only reason the Chinese respect us is because of our buying power born out of capitalism. If you think they respect us because of the government you're joshing yourself.
By getting out of the way.
Government is inherently bad which is why we need as little of it as possible to do what is best for humanity. Capitalism with a little bit of government to make capitalism work best. Things like contract enforcement, common law, and various laissez faire concepts.
so in countries that have very little governance like countries in Africa... the government may very well be out of the way... is this type of set up ideal? where is there a governance in place that you could point to that exemplifies this "get out of the way" that you espouse?
That is what boosted us from a former colony to the worlds only super power. It wasn't socialism or big government. The only reason the Chinese respect us is because of our buying power born out of capitalism. If you think they respect us because of the government you're joshing yourself.
how did china become a superpower? surely china is... or would you disagree? I am under the impression that there are multiple roads to superpowerdom. i'm pretty sure all of them involve work and the allowance for work. would you agree? but on the topic of your narrative: china and America are on different sides of various spectrums in regards to governance. so how can you explain that if small weak government is supposed to be the key to economic success? I contend that work is the key to economic success and it really doesn't matter what kind of governance you have as long as that governance allows for work. I would say feudal empires of ages past were wealthy and were super powers in their own rights, british empire seems a good example, certainly a super power of its own day.
conversely there are many areas where there is minimal governance and life is miserable. many countries in Africa are prime examples.
back to America and china. both in American and china, those who have can do as they want or need, mainly because money covers a multitude of problems, just as love covers a multitude of sins. that's all very besides the point though. in china capitalism is allowed to work in a variety of ways, especially when the state mandates and clears the way for things to happen. is that capitalistic?
is your view of what's good for humanity the accumulation of wealth or is it the maintenance of liberty? if it were the maintenance of liberty then why did you append the ideals of capitalism and it's free function to the equation?
Belmont31R
01-02-14, 22:32
so in countries that have very little governance like countries in Africa... the government may very well be out of the way... is this type of set up ideal? where is there a governance in place that you could point to that exemplifies this "get out of the way" that you espouse?
how did china become a superpower? surely china is... or would you disagree? I am under the impression that there are multiple roads to superpowerdom. i'm pretty sure all of them involve work and the allowance for work. would you agree? but on the topic of your narrative: china and America are on different sides of various spectrums in regards to governance. so how can you explain that if small weak government is supposed to be the key to economic success? I contend that work is the key to economic success and it really doesn't matter what kind of governance you have as long as that governance allows for work. I would say feudal empires of ages past were wealthy and were super powers in their own rights, british empire seems a good example, certainly a super power of its own day.
conversely there are many areas where there is minimal governance and life is miserable. many countries in Africa are prime examples.
back to America and china. both in American and china, those who have can do as they want or need, mainly because money covers a multitude of problems, just as love covers a multitude of sins. that's all very besides the point though. in china capitalism is allowed to work in a variety of ways, especially when the state mandates and clears the way for things to happen. is that capitalistic?
is your view of what's good for humanity the accumulation of wealth or is it the maintenance of liberty? if it were the maintenance of liberty then why did you append the ideals of capitalism and it's free function to the equation?
The Roaring 20's. Its about what we need right now.
China has largely abandoned their communist ways in what Cato calls 'state sponsored capitalism'.
You can look to a country like Sweden, and see the economic gains they have benefited from by adopting a more capitalistic society. Norway and Switzerland are going to 401k type retirement plans for future earners as opposed to the pay as you go SS type systems a lot of countries adopted.
Attempts to equate limited government to Africa are beyond asinine. I'd like for you to review for us the differences in American society in 1802 vs Africa.
The Roaring 20's. Its about what we need right now.
China has largely abandoned their communist ways in what Cato calls 'state sponsored capitalism'.
You can look to a country like Sweden, and see the economic gains they have benefited from by adopting a more capitalistic society. Norway and Switzerland are going to 401k type retirement plans for future earners as opposed to the pay as you go SS type systems a lot of countries adopted.
Attempts to equate limited government to Africa are beyond asinine. I'd like for you to review for us the differences in American society in 1802 vs Africa.
you're very clearly not answering the questions I've asked.
is it maintenance of liberty or is it economic pursuit? or is there supposed to be some magical cooperation between the two? if it is the magical cooperation of the both then surely you must recognize that there will scenarios where the two will be in conflict, in which case, what would you compromise? economics or liberty?
I've given examples that minimal governance, a happy populace doesn't make.
I've shown you with maximal governance, a big economy can be made.
what say you?
I'll make the real clear and simple. Stop the bullshit and focus on the issue at hand. If the two of you can't play well, quit responding to the thread.
Belmont31R
01-02-14, 23:04
you're very clearly not answering the questions I've asked.
is it maintenance of liberty or is it economic pursuit? or is there supposed to be some magical cooperation between the two? if it is the magical cooperation of the both then surely you must recognize that there will scenarios where the two will be in conflict, in which case, what would you compromise? economics or liberty?
I've given examples that minimal governance, a happy populace doesn't make.
I've shown you with maximal governance, a big economy can be made.
what say you?
Economic freedom is still freedom. Where freedom ends is where another's rights begin. So you need to do things like abide by a contract and pay people what you said you would.
I never said Africa has good governance or economic freedom so Im not sure why you keep bring that up. You're entirely arguing against something from your own imagination trying to pin that imagery on me.
China ia WAY behind us in per capita income, and they have done so at great expense. Their biggest gains have come from 'state sponsored capitalism', not communism.
If people would realize how corrupt the government is things would be different.
If people would realize how corrupt the government is things would be different.
The weakness of human nature at it's finest.
Sent from my DROID X2
Since this is easy, I'll take it.
Snowden's disclosures are damaging to a Presidential administration (similar to Watergate) and an intelligence community that is overstepping their bounds and at times seems to be more focused on violating the rights of US citizens than investigating foreign terrorists.
When former SOF guys disclose techniques and tactics they put fellow military personal at risk who are actively focusing on foreign terrorists and compromising future operations against actual foreign terrorists.
I'm hoping you can discern the huge difference.
Well, many on this board have subscribed to being a steadfast supporter of principle. Is this not a case then, of subjective principle, supporting the stance that best fits one's own belief system? If the principle was that disclosure of classified information was bad all around, then Snowden's actions would also be frowned upon.
I asked in my previous post of these leaks were not damaging to the US; you reply that it is damaging to an Administration and an intelligence community that is, and I quote: "overstepping their bounds and at times seems to be more focused on violating the rights of US citizens than investigating foreign terrorists". I understand that these kinds of programs are easy to perceive as infringing on peoples rights., but is that the case? Have there been incidents where illegally obtained information from one of these programs has resulted in the conviction of someone? Regardless of actual guilt.
As far as I understand, based on a similar program we have here, is that content is not monitored or stored, only the time, place and duration of the communication is stored. To use this information you would need a court order/warrant that is in support an ongoing investigation. Are there examples of this program being abused?
And to think that the intelligence community does not aid the fight on the ground to me shows a clear lack of understanding with regards to how military operations are conducted. SIGINT is a huge contributor to work ups of target packages, along with HUMINT, IMINT and OSINT. Especially in this fight. Compromising this information can lead to sources, agents and TTP's being compromised, with the result that the bad guys change their MO, and also possible compromise of invaluable sources on the ground.
In addition, like I alluded to in my previous post, terrorism is not the only threat to a country. There are many others (ref TESSOC), some probably more likely to occur than terrorism. These programs are valid assets when it comes to combating these additional threats. If you demand that programs like these are shut down, how would you maintain an acceptable degree of awarness in the cyber realm? Cyberattacks, cyber-espionage is very common and is aimed at both the private and government/official sectors. Are traditional LE techniques up to the task in todays environment?
Many of these threats costs society a lot of money due to the social impact, particularly Organized Crime; gun smuggling, drug smugglin, money Laundering, trafficking etc, as well as espionage (industrial in particular) causing businesses to lose revenue due to industrial espionage.
And it's not about political preference. Bush 43 put in place huge programs, worst example probably being the Patriot Act, that are nothing more than a tool to deny US citizens their rights so long as the government declares them a "potential terrorist."
Additionally, some of Snowden's disclosures actually go back to the Bush administration as well. I don't feel fine an dandy just because it is "my team" who is screwing up the country and running roughshod over my rights.
Presidents, cabinet members and those involved in domestic intelligence gathering also aren't putting their "lives on the line" to go to bad places and catch bad people who do bad things. To the contrary, people like Hillary Clinton can demonstrate gross incompetence resulting in the deaths of those who go to dangerous places and still be a viable contender to run for President in the future.
Well, it is political preference though. Not neccessarily in the traditional democrat/republican way, but with regards to the policy/policies you want the government to adhere to, or have in place. No political orientation, so to speak, will be able to cater fully 100% to a group of people, there will always be issues that will be disagreed on. You, and many with you, dislike this approach, and support these leaks. Others who support these increased security measures are critical of the leaks. I think you have supporters and critics on both sides of the political Spectrum.
With regards to the Patriot Act, as far as I understand, it is not a free for all, you still need court orders/warrants and an actual case to get access to information or start surveillance procedures.
I agree that there is often very little accountability at the higher levels of government, and it frustrates me too. I disagree with your assertion that being at the highest level of government or conducting domestic surveillance does not involve danger or a certain risk. You have had 4 successful presidential assassinations, and 15 failed attempts. I'd say being the US President carries with it quite a bit of risk. There have also been successful and unsuccessful attempts at Congress members. Granted, they are not putting themselves directly in to the line of fire.
Well, many on this board have subscribed to being a steadfast supporter of principle. Is this not a case then, of subjective principle, supporting the stance that best fits one's own belief system? If the principle was that disclosure of classified information was bad all around, then Snowden's actions would also be frowned upon.
I asked in my previous post of these leaks were not damaging to the US; you reply that it is damaging to an Administration and an intelligence community that is, and I quote: "overstepping their bounds and at times seems to be more focused on violating the rights of US citizens than investigating foreign terrorists". I understand that these kinds of programs are easy to perceive as infringing on peoples rights., but is that the case? Have there been incidents where illegally obtained information from one of these programs has resulted in the conviction of someone? Regardless of actual guilt.
As far as I understand, based on a similar program we have here, is that content is not monitored or stored, only the time, place and duration of the communication is stored. To use this information you would need a court order/warrant that is in support an ongoing investigation. Are there examples of this program being abused?
And to think that the intelligence community does not aid the fight on the ground to me shows a clear lack of understanding with regards to how military operations are conducted. SIGINT is a huge contributor to work ups of target packages, along with HUMINT, IMINT and OSINT. Especially in this fight. Compromising this information can lead to sources, agents and TTP's being compromised, with the result that the bad guys change their MO, and also possible compromise of invaluable sources on the ground.
In addition, like I alluded to in my previous post, terrorism is not the only threat to a country. There are many others (ref TESSOC), some probably more likely to occur than terrorism. These programs are valid assets when it comes to combating these additional threats. If you demand that programs like these are shut down, how would you maintain an acceptable degree of awarness in the cyber realm? Cyberattacks, cyber-espionage is very common and is aimed at both the private and government/official sectors. Are traditional LE techniques up to the task in todays environment?
Many of these threats costs society a lot of money due to the social impact, particularly Organized Crime; gun smuggling, drug smugglin, money Laundering, trafficking etc, as well as espionage (industrial in particular) causing businesses to lose revenue due to industrial espionage.
Well, it is political preference though. Not neccessarily in the traditional democrat/republican way, but with regards to the policy/policies you want the government to adhere to, or have in place. No political orientation, so to speak, will be able to cater fully 100% to a group of people, there will always be issues that will be disagreed on. You, and many with you, dislike this approach, and support these leaks. Others who support these increased security measures are critical of the leaks. I think you have supporters and critics on both sides of the political Spectrum.
With regards to the Patriot Act, as far as I understand, it is not a free for all, you still need court orders/warrants and an actual case to get access to information or start surveillance procedures.
I agree that there is often very little accountability at the higher levels of government, and it frustrates me too. I disagree with your assertion that being at the highest level of government or conducting domestic surveillance does not involve danger or a certain risk. You have had 4 successful presidential assassinations, and 15 failed attempts. I'd say being the US President carries with it quite a bit of risk. There have also been successful and unsuccessful attempts at Congress members. Granted, they are not putting themselves directly in to the line of fire.
The problem comes in the complete lack of independent oversight. The court doling out the warrants is secret. The system reviews are secret. The congressional inquiries are limited in scope and you guessed it, secret. When it comes time to answer very pertinent questions that The People have a right to ask, the Director of National Intelligence lies under oath. For his perfidy he's given a complete pass and allowed to keep his job. Not even a day off without pay. So in the end, all we have is some nebulous entity telling us "There have been a few isolated problems, but all is well now. We never used any information gathered illegally." No further information is given. That's it, end of story.
So along comes Snowden and SURPRISE! All the stuff they deny doing, well...they've been doing it all along. "No need for concern." they say, "All is well now." Except the leaks keep dripping out and they're caught in lie after lie. So when the man on stage says "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!", should we trust him? Not on your life.
Did the Snowden releases hurt America? No. The misdeeds of the U.S. government hurt America. Stop trying to kill the messenger just because the message is bad. Snowden is nothing more than an errand boy. He delivered the mail. The mail was bad. Get used to it. You ask: "Have there been incidents where illegally obtained information from one of these programs has resulted in the conviction of someone? Regardless of actual guilt." I reply: How would we know? Do you really think they'd tell us if it happened? Again, not on your life.
So all we're really left with is a question of credibility. I wouldn't trust President Obama, Jay Carney, Susan Rice, James Clapper, Gen. Alexander, Kathleen Sebilius, etc., etc. ad nauseum, if they told me my house was on fire. I would probably trust Edward Snowden if he told me the same. After all, he pretty much already has...and he was right. :(
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