View Full Version : How many sbr owners without suppressors?
Im in between buying a suppressor now or just rolling the dice with what the atf plans to do with the trust route(my cleo wont sign).I have a aac ti9 that frankly I really dont use other than to let some of my non gun friends see its not just like the movies.Im just wondering how many of you with 10.5" or similar sbr's dont have a can to accompany it?
I dont use any of my AR's as a home defense tool and Im unsure if I really want to invest the extra time and money in something Im not sure will bring me a ton of joy.Is it a must have? would you feel left out without having one?
just trying to get some other opinions on whether or not the extra 500-1k dollars is worth it
I have cans for all my SBR's (mostly 11.5"). I have shot them without the cans, but somehow it's just more fun with 'em on.
If I was an operator who really needed the benefits of a small weapon platform for ingress/egress and mobility, I could see ditching the can.
I have a 12.5" Noveske I carry on duty without a suppressor. Nice compact, light package that makes getting in and out of vehicles, building searches, etc easier without giving up the advantages of a rifle.
Just FYI...if you bring a SBR unsuppressed to a training class everyone WILL hate you and will let you know.
Nothing like doing room clearing live fire drills with a nit-wit with a SBR as your partner.
We were all about ready to shoot the guy by the end of the day just to put his rifle out of action.
:)
Lawnchair 04
12-29-13, 07:17
I shoot my 11.5 bcm without a can (pending surefire socom), with a surefire flash hider it's not bad but I wouldn't chose to stand next to someone shooting it for any length of time. Once the can comes through I'm throwing a brake on it, the can will be semi permanent then.
"It's not bad" ... maybe not for you behind the rifle, but for everyone else within the blast radius it is a miserable experience.
Try a drill while shooting from a vehicle with a guy who is running one in the back seat with you.
Lawnchair 04
12-29-13, 07:45
That's true your right I wouldn't want to be in the blast radius of one. The op wasn't asking that particular question though, to me being behind the gun without a can is no different than being behind my 14.5 inch ar. For the record I wear plugs and electronic muffs.
I will be running an 11.5 with an A2 flash hider or PIG on duty with no plans or $$ for a can. If I go to a training class, I have access to longer ARs. My goal with this set up was to have a short rifle that will hide easily in a discreet bag since I am no longer on patrol (driving a desk in admin but want to be ready for anything that might arise) and take my rifle (bag) in and out of my car a lot.
NCPatrolAR
12-29-13, 08:50
There's nothing wrong with using a non-suppressed SBR in class. It's no worse than some of the brakes and comps guys are running around with
karmapolice
12-29-13, 08:56
I run a 12.5" sbr everyday at work as a Patrol Deputy, I own a can but it does not reside on the gun at all. It might if it was a mini can but it's an AAC SPR/M4 and it doesn't see much use at all, especially since I don't have the ability to mount it to anything right now. I run an SBR for the shorter length to make it easier to run from the front seat of my car and in tight buildings etc, adding a can that lengthens the overall package by 5 inches isn't worth it to me.
I have two 11.5 SBRs without suppressors (suppressors are illegal in this state). Both have BattleComp 1.0 muzzle brakes on them. They're loud, but not particularly bothersome to me outdoors. I've taken several courses with them and although they draw the occasional comment, I've never heard anyone complain. They are noticeably louder indoors and I do wear plugs-under-muffs for extended shooting at the local indoor range.
I don't see the big deal, suppressor vs no suppressor, for an SBR. If they were legal here I'd probably have one, but I don't feel the downside to an unsuppressed SBR that others in this thread seem to feel.
I have two 11.5 SBRs without suppressors (suppressors are illegal in this state). Both have BattleComp 1.0 muzzle brakes on them. They're loud, but not particularly bothersome to me outdoors. I've taken several courses with them and although they draw the occasional comment, I've never heard anyone complain. They are noticeably louder indoors and I do wear plugs-under-muffs for extended shooting at the local indoor range.
I don't see the big deal, suppressor vs no suppressor, for an SBR. If they were legal here I'd probably have one, but I don't feel the downside to an unsuppressed SBR that others in this thread seem to feel.
I run a 12.5" sbr everyday at work as a Patrol Deputy, I own a can but it does not reside on the gun at all. It might if it was a mini can but it's an AAC SPR/M4 and it doesn't see much use at all, especially since I don't have the ability to mount it to anything right now. I run an SBR for the shorter length to make it easier to run from the front seat of my car and in tight buildings etc, adding a can that lengthens the overall package by 5 inches isn't worth it to me.
If you have to use it in a confined space I think the blast would be so concussive it would effectively take you out if the fight
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I own a MK18. (DD 10.3) that I currently do not own a can for...not yet at least, and don't think I'll get one for at least a year or two, I have a baby in the way, so I have a feeling that he'll be taking all my gun money I put aside for myself.
I have a 10.5" sbr that I've had for about a year and half now without a can. I went through the same dilemma you are but decided to get one anyway. Just sent my form 4 and Trust off last month for an SDN 6. I figured Ill have a suppressor I can use for all my rifles and when I visit my parents I can shoot on their property without annoying the neighbors. Its legal to shoot there but they call the police cause of the noise. I definitely think its louder than a 16" gun, especially at an indoor range. Also lets out a huge fireball. So basically I got mine cause I think they're pretty cool and to be a little courteous. But I don't think its a must have.
"There's nothing wrong with using a non-suppressed SBR in class. It's no worse than something of the brakes and comps guys are running around with"
I agree with this. Used mine in a class and shot next to others with unsupressed SBRs. Didn't think it was a big deal.
I'd get a suppressor now and not wait.
As to using an SBR without a suppressor. Yes, they're loud but as mention if it knocks you out of the fight, you should turn in you guns and man card at the door and expect it to hit you on the way out.
If you have to use it in a confined space I think the blast would be so concussive it would effectively take you out if the fight
I doubt that that would be a problem for those not taking estrogen.
im definitely no operator or door kicker,just a young guy who likes having cool stuff.I happen to like the fireballs and noise so its no big deal to me really and I dont ever plan on firing any of them indoors thank god lol.I dont get the chance to attend many classes either but if it was a issue I have 16" guns I can use
my main struggle is whether a 5.56 can was worth the money.I might just bite the bullet and get one
HMAC, you've got to consider the AMSDORF, I mean source. Cough cough.
My SCAR 16/17s, with 16" barrels and factory brakes were FAR louder than my 10.5" SBR AR (all unsuppressed).
evoutfitters
12-29-13, 11:32
Everything's a tradeoff... Less noise and blast with a can, but more sinus-clearing gas and the always stylish "suppressor face" smudges around nose and mouth. There is also more carbon, crud, and cleaning involved with shooting suppressed on an AR.
I typically confirm any zero changes with the can mounted on my 12.5" SBR, then shoot 95% unsuppressed. Of course, I hardly ever shoot indoors, and I always double up on earpro (plugs + electronic muffs). For me, my can is not about fun, it is more of an insurance policy against "just-in-case" scenarios.
Frankly, I shoot more suppressed with precision ARs than with SBRs. The can on an SPR/recce definitely helps accurate shooting by removing muzzle jump and blast and the longer barrel reduces gas blowback significantly when compared to shooting an SBR.
If you have to use it in a confined space I think the blast would be so concussive it would effectively take you out if the fight
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If this affects any such as this, please stick to knitting and bird watching. In my experience its entirely tolerable.
HMAC, you've got to consider the AMSDORF, I mean source. Cough cough.
My SCAR 16/17s, with 16" barrels and factory brakes were FAR louder than my 10.5" SBR AR (all unsuppressed).
I would agree with this. The SBR was not any more brutal. Hell I get a kick out of reading the whining on the 7.5" upper thread. Some of you guys clearly suffer from Low T :)
For reference, ptmccain = AMSDORF on several forums.
Been banned from SOCNET, CMP forum, FN forum, and pretty much every other forum.
Even quality forums like "gun hub".
http://gunhub.com/handguns/58919-colt-gold-cup-trophy-sweet-unboxing-shooting-demo-video.html
Just search AMSDORF banned. It's all there for the reading - make your own evaluation.
Just had to be said.
SeriousStudent
12-29-13, 17:24
And now a gentle nudge back to SBR's sans cans.....
I only have one can for my four SBR's and they were easy to shoot without one.
I only have one can for my four SBR's and they were easy to shoot without one.
Same, I have 3 SBRs and they are fine without. Only have one suppressor for them,
I've got 4 different SBR lowers (12.5" w/ Surefire brake, 11.5" w/ A2, two 9" 300 BLK w/ flash hiders) and none have cans due to state law in MN. Given the opportunity, I absolutely would have a can for the .30 cal and one for the 5.56 uppers. I've never felt like I NEEDED one nor have I felt like I was missing anything by not having a can for it.
Yeh. If they were legal here, I'd have one for the novelty if nothing else. But even without, it's just not a big deal to me. I did an Urban Tactics course several years ago. My scenario partner all day had a 10.5 SBR with Surefire brake. I spent all day in his "blast radius" without ill effect (except for getting me on the SBR bandwagon). I've had flash bangs go off at my feet. That is distracting. SBR with BattleComp? Not so much. "Effectively take me out of the fight"? Uh, no.
karmapolice
12-29-13, 22:34
If you have to use it in a confined space I think the blast would be so concussive it would effectively take you out if the fight
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LOL you've got to be freaking joking. To me it's worse shooting (outside) my 1911 than my sbr without ear pro, which I've done when having to dispatch a critter and forgetting to don earpro. If noise takes you out of a fight you were never in the fight to begin with.
If this affects any such as this, please stick to knitting and bird watching. In my experience its entirely tolerable.
Don't feed the troll, the guy is a freaking blight on this forum, and I can't even comprehend how he hasn't been banned yet.
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OK, well, aside from ad hominems here...
Let me try to clarify my point.
If you are using an unsuppressed SBR AR without hearing protection in a confined space, like a house, etc. you are putting yourself at a distinct disadvantage. You may well stun yourself out of the fight after a round or two from the SBR, for that matter, any AR going off in a confined space. Your hearing will be useless.
Do a Google search on the subject and you'll find plenty of other conversations, even on this forum, on this very point that support my assertion.
OK, well, aside from ad hominems here...
Let me try to clarify my point.
If you are using an unsuppressed SBR AR without hearing protection in a confined space, like a house, etc. you are putting yourself at a distinct disadvantage. You may well stun yourself out of the fight after a round or two from the SBR, for that matter, any AR going off in a confined space. Your hearing will be useless.
Do a Google search on the subject and you'll find plenty of other conversations, even on this forum, on this very point that support my assertion.
Nah...I don't think so. Ears may be ringing for a couple of hours, but you'd have to be pretty sensitive for it to "take you out of the fight" if you have had any training whatsoever.
I know the threads you're talking about. I don't think they support your assertion of complete discombobulation. SBRs, even indoors, just aren't as loud as you seem to think they are.
Don't misunderstand...shooting indoors without hearing protection is certainly unpleasant. But not disabling IMHO.
OTOH, some people might be more sensititive to loud noises and more easily distracted by them, for whatever reason. Perhaps that personal experience is driving your opinion.
I always thought the same thing.
Then in a shooting match running across the last portion of a stage, put my gun over a barrier to shoot two targets twice and I noticed how loud it was. Ear plug came out while running. No ringing, nada. I've shot or had shot rifles near me before 16" mini-14 without ear protection (Not the smartest thing I've ever done) and my ears were ringing, even suppressed 16" ARs with M4-2000 made my ears ring.
I was shooting a 16" Midlength at the competition.
Adrenaline plays a factor.
I don't plan on a suppressor for my 12" AR. Using Suppressors and experiencing carbon in the mouth, higher cyclic rate, ears ringing (for me), hotter gun, burning off/spraying lubricants (because they get so hot and dirty they need more). I'm just not interested in a Suppressor 5.56 AR currently. I also shoot lefty, so my face is right next to the ejection port in an AR.
Just my $.02.
Now I am considering a Silencerco 22sparrow or SWR Spectre II, that's a different story.
ETA: My first experience shooting a Suppressed AR, my eyes were watering from the spray/over pressure from the Ejection port. I wear glasses as an FYI, so it wasn't I didn't have eye protection. That was with an M4-2k mod 08 and 10 shots.
No SBR yet, planning stage, but I have no plans to ever run a suppressor. It would defeat my purpose.
Just FYI...if you bring a SBR unsuppressed to a training class everyone WILL hate you and will let you know.
Nothing like doing room clearing live fire drills with a nit-wit with a SBR as your partner.
We were all about ready to shoot the guy by the end of the day just to put his rifle out of action.
:)
You just replied to a big question I've been thinking about. The whole point of me going to an SBR is so I can train and take classes (I only have one arm, fatigue is a factor; now waiting for all the "hit the weight room" reply guys out there). But if this is what folks will think of me, now I'm second guessing taking any training courses. :confused:
ETA: crap, just read:
And now a gentle nudge back to SBR's sans cans.....
Sorry 'bout that. Didn't intend to drag off after course correction.
No can for me.
I have no plans to ever shoot anything without hearing protection lol.I use my g19 as a home defense gun,I figure if I need more than that im probably not gonna care about what happens to my ears.
Right now im leaning towards not getting one as it just adds that original length back to the gun.I dont ever see myself getting a rifle id like to shoot suppressed in 7.62 and really for the money Im not super impressed with the sound of 5.56 cans.I mean its a drastic difference from normal but nothing like say shooting a sub .300blk.Ill probably just throw another lower in the que and maybe if they dont change the law ill get one in the future
OK, well, aside from ad hominems here...
Let me try to clarify my point.
If you are using an unsuppressed SBR AR without hearing protection in a confined space, like a house, etc. you are putting yourself at a distinct disadvantage. You may well stun yourself out of the fight after a round or two from the SBR, for that matter, any AR going off in a confined space. Your hearing will be useless.
Do a Google search on the subject and you'll find plenty of other conversations, even on this forum, on this very point that support my assertion.
But that's not what you first asserted. You mention the nit wit with the SBR during a class - I'm assuming earpro was used in the class. For reference...
Just FYI...if you bring a SBR unsuppressed to a training class everyone WILL hate you and will let you know.
Nothing like doing room clearing live fire drills with a nit-wit with a SBR as your partner.
We were all about ready to shoot the guy by the end of the day just to put his rifle out of action.
:)But now your are saying unsuppressed, no earpro, in a confined space, then you go to any AR...
Make up your mind before you state a position and use more than google and YouTube for reference points.
Of course I know the futility of engaging in a discussion. Why don't we see some more Youtube videos to illustrate your points again?
No SBR yet, planning stage, but I have no plans to ever run a suppressor. It would defeat my purpose.
You just replied to a big question I've been thinking about. The whole point of me going to an SBR is so I can train and take classes (I only have one arm, fatigue is a factor; now waiting for all the "hit the weight room" reply guys out there). But if this is what folks will think of me, now I'm second guessing taking any training courses. :confused:
Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about this as sbr's are commonplace now and few people will ever have a problem with them. It's a freaking firearm! It's going to be loud as hell no matter what type it is. People who go to a shooting range and complain about the noise deserve to be miserable and I will do what I can to contribute to that. When people whine about my 16"bbl. 308 with a muzzle break I start doing mag dumps for them. However if someone politely asks me to hold off so they can shoot bullseyes or something I will wait for them to do so. As to being knocked senseless by the report? Bullshit! I've experienced my socom 16 indoors without ear pro and I was fine. Miserable but fully aware and functional. Pt is talking out his ass as he seems to have zero experience on the matter. If he did he would not have the opinion he does.
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I have electronic ear pro next to my rifle so if I must shoot inside I can wear them.
I keep my SBRs locked in the safe, so I don't have to worry about ear protection.
Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about this as sbr's are commonplace now and few people will ever have a problem with them. It's a freaking firearm! It's going to be loud as hell no matter what type it is. People who go to a shooting range and complain about the noise deserve to be miserable and I will do what I can to contribute to that. When people whine about my 16"bbl. 308 with a muzzle break I start doing mag dumps for them. However if someone politely asks me to hold off so they can shoot bullseyes or something I will wait for them to do so. As to being knocked senseless by the report? Bullshit! I've experienced my socom 16 indoors without ear pro and I was fine. Miserable but fully aware and functional. Pt is talking out his ass as he seems to have zero experience on the matter. If he did he would not have the opinion he does.
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Much appreciated Mr B.
"It's not bad" ... maybe not for you behind the rifle, but for everyone else within the blast radius it is a miserable experience.
Try a drill while shooting from a vehicle with a guy who is running one in the back seat with you.
I've only been to one carbine course, lots of SBR's. I wore double ear pro, one of my times on line I just had EAR plugs in. I was between to 10.5" SBRS and behind one. As soon as the command to fire was given I made my weapon safe and got my muffs, it Was very uncomfortable.
I can't own a suppressor here in VT. I own a few SBR's and love them. Get one, heck get two!
I've got 3 sbr's that I use on duty/SWAT 10.5,11.5,12.5 all 3 have the KAC 3t, had plans to get the KAC suppressor, havent got one yet, because I keep buying rifles .
I've shot all 3 from vehicles as well as on the range without hearing protection before and still do it time to time. Just to get exposure in case I have to do it the real world.
It didn't take me out of the fight. I had ringing in the ears but didn't notice till after I stopped shooting.
With ear pro its not an issue. YMMV.
I was involved in an on duty shooting where my partner and I fired 42 rounds of .45, 230 grain rounds from our Glock 21's, I heard him giving commands, as well as him yelling moving and reloading.
After it was over I had no ringing what so ever. Strange things can happen in a real deadly force encounter.
My partners expierance with his hearing was the same.
I've got 3 sbr's that I use on duty/SWAT 10.5,11.5,12.5 all 3 have the KAC 3t, had plans to get the KAC suppressor, havent got one yet, because I keep buying rifles .
I've shot all 3 from vehicles as well as on the range without hearing protection before and still do it time to time. Just to get exposure in case I have to do it the real world.
It didn't take me out of the fight. I had ringing in the ears but didn't notice till after I stopped shooting.
With ear pro its not an issue. YMMV.
I was involved in an on duty shooting where my partner and I fired 42 rounds of .45, 230 grain rounds from our Glock 21's, I heard him giving commands, as well as him yelling moving and reloading.
After it was over I had no ringing what so ever. Strange things can happen in a real deadly force encounter.
My partners expierance with his hearing was the same.
Do you think suppressors have a practical use for duty? Considering buying a SOCOM for my patrol rifle, a 10.3"
I had this discussion with a buddy on duty, he was prior military and seems a knowledgable gun guy. He thought cans were purely for novelty, I pointed out that if he shot his duty SBR in a hallway or room there was a decent chance of a medical retirement due to hearing damage for both of us.
Im surprised you could shoot a 10.5" in a car without permanent issues.
Im shopping, what models are your 10, 11, and 12?
I just tried to google some decibel rating, if accurate, this is really interesting for showing the noise level of muzzle devices
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2013/10/05/ar15-muzzle-brakeflash-hidercompensator-comparison-part-2/
I had this discussion with a buddy on duty, he was prior military and seems a knowledgable gun guy. He thought cans were purely for novelty, I pointed out that if he shot his duty SBR in a hallway or room there was a decent chance of a medical retirement due to hearing damage for both of us.
Im surprised you could shoot a 10.5" in a car without permanent issues.
Im shopping, what models are your 10, 11, and 12?
I just tried to google some decibel rating, if accurate, this is really interesting for showing the noise level of muzzle devices
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2013/10/05/ar15-muzzle-brakeflash-hidercompensator-comparison-part-2/
Hearing damage is cumulative. One incident isn't going to make you deaf. A lifetime of shooting without ear pro will, eventually.
english kanigit
01-01-14, 23:28
Hearing damage is very much a cumulative thing but some things are far worse than others.
There's nothing wrong with using a non-suppressed SBR in class. It's no worse than some of the brakes and comps guys are running around with
THIS.
I've been in a few classes and around a few folks with SBRs. I have two myself and I'm just now about to take receipt of a 762MINI. A good suppressor is something that I have wanted for the longest time but I always thought that money was better spent on ammunition and training. I know it's odd but some of us may have rather limited funds to work with.
Thirdly, if you're in some use of force incident that requires the use of an SBR then worrying about hearing damage at that point is pretty far down on your list o' concerns. Just sayin'...
Ek
I've got 3 sbr's that I use on duty/SWAT 10.5,11.5,12.5 all 3 have the KAC 3t, had plans to get the KAC suppressor, havent got one yet, because I keep buying rifles .
I've shot all 3 from vehicles as well as on the range without hearing protection before and still do it time to time. Just to get exposure in case I have to do it the real world.
It didn't take me out of the fight. I had ringing in the ears but didn't notice till after I stopped shooting.
With ear pro its not an issue. YMMV.
I was involved in an on duty shooting where my partner and I fired 42 rounds of .45, 230 grain rounds from our Glock 21's, I heard him giving commands, as well as him yelling moving and reloading.
After it was over I had no ringing what so ever. Strange things can happen in a real deadly force encounter.
My partners expierance with his hearing was the same.
This is called auditory exclusion. Goes along with tunnel vision and the like in deadly force encounters.
I own 2 ARs, 1 16" patrol rifle, and 1 SBR. I do not own suppressors. They'd be nice to have, but I have other firearm and non-firearm priorities that I have to tend to first.
I was involved in an on duty shooting where my partner and I fired 42 rounds of .45, 230 grain rounds from our Glock 21's, I heard him giving commands, as well as him yelling moving and reloading.
After it was over I had no ringing what so ever. Strange things can happen in a real deadly force encounter.
My partners expierance with his hearing was the same.
I had a similar experience, with 2 handguns going off, along with an AR. Didn't find the noise troublesome or distracting from the bigger picture at hand. In fact, I wasn't aware of my partner firing the AR until later. Auditory exclusion to the extreme.
Now, auditory exclusion essentially delays or inhibits the transmission of data from the ear to the brain, or it keeps the brain from processing the sound as a priority. It does not inhibit the sound from entering your ear canal. This can cause damage over time, and it can be distracting if you're not expecting someone else to pop off rounds first.
If you have the advantage of time and preparation, donning earpro is a good idea, but as you know, you may not have that luxury. That's where suppressors come in. They have their advantages, even beyond the sound reduction, for CONUS LE usage, but cost and length are factors to be considered. As with donning earpro, you also need the foresight to have your AR on you and ready. So far, I know of only 1 municipal department that authorizes suppressors for handguns, and even then, for very limited roles.
For me, the juice isn't worth the squeeze, beyond being a novelty. I'd love to have one, but I have other priorities. As for pissing people off in class: wear good eye- and ear- pro. If you're in such close confines that some else's muzzle blast is seriously affecting your ability to perform, that's part of the reason you're in class: to learn this about yourself and the environment, and try to work around it, vs blaming someone else's equipment selection.
Even one gunshot permanently damages hearing, the cumulative damage produces moderate to severe hearing loss.
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Even one gunshot permanently damages hearing, the cumulative damage produces moderate to severe hearing loss.
Even one gunshot might permananently damage hearing, the cumulative damage produces mild to severe hearing loss, the degree depending on frequency and dose.
Even one gunshot might permananently damage hearing, the cumulative damage produces mild to severe hearing loss, the degree depending on frequency and dose.
Yeah, HMAC. What do you know about hearing loss & unsupressed SBRs? ...being a doctor and all...that owns unsupressed SBRs. ;)
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I own one SBR with a BattelComp attached and without a suppressor.
Even one gunshot permanently damages hearing, the cumulative damage produces moderate to severe hearing loss.
Wow, that's a news flash there.
Really? :rolleyes:
Hearing loss is not the end of the world either. I have over 40% hearing loss attributed to multiple things (firearms have played little to no role in my hearing loss) and I'm still able to function in society just fine. It sucks and I'd love to have it back but it's not the end of the world. It actually takes a freaking lot to permanently reduce hearing that bad. I can trace mine back for the past 15 years of issues to hurt my hearing this bad. Basically you would have to shoot without ear pro regularly to have problems, sbr or not.
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RogerinTPA
01-02-14, 21:41
Agree with the majority of the posters. Where I've trained for years, lots of people show up with SBRs. I've run my DD MK-18 with a battle comp in a few classes and most have stated it is actually less intrusive than most other muzzle devices that normally show up in a class. I also make a conscious effort to get on the end of a relay and ensure it's muzzle is lined up close to the next shooter's muzzle, but I haven't had any complaints, even after soliciting opinions about it.
Do you think suppressors have a practical use for duty? Considering buying a SOCOM for my patrol rifle, a 10.3"
Sure if you have the time to put it on, unless your going to leave it attached, but then your carrying around a 16 inch rifle.
You then loose the advantages of the sbr.
If I or a loved one was in a hostage situation I would hope the officers breaching would have suppressors on their weapons.
If I or a loved one was in a hostage situation I would hope the officers breaching would have suppressors on their weapons.
And use silent flash-bangs too?
If I or a loved one was in a hostage situation I would hope the officers breaching would have suppressors on their weapons.
Why?
I think you've got bigger things to worry about. Personally, I'd prefer they use the $600-$1200 for each can on extra training ammo if they're going to be doing a hostage rescue.
Suppressors are nice for this role, but it might be a moot point after an explosive breach and a couple NFDDs.
bullittmcqueen
01-03-14, 09:08
Mk18 with Battlecomp here and its a joy to shoot [OUTDOORS]. The one time i shot it at an indoor range it rattled my entire body and ran several people off next to me. But outdoors it feels and sounds no different than any of my other AR's. No suppressor as of yet.
Would I want to stand next to someone in a class all day shooting it? Maybe not but I wouldn't cry about it. Shooting 3-gun, EVERY shooter has a wide open brake and the concussion hits you 10 or 20 feet away. You just get used to it. Plugs and muffs as needed.
I think some of the 3-gun rifles I see with the SJC titans are much harder to deal with than SBRs.
You want to amortization the cost of ammo and training for 600-1200 vs the cost of a suppressor? 600-1200 sounds like a lot, at current ammo prices lets put 5.56 at a buck around for even math. So buying a suppressor would reduce round count by 600-1200 trigger pulls in a year. Suppressor don't wear out after a year though. I'm running my AAC 5 years and it cost around 800. So 800/5=160. So now I the Suppressor is taking 160 trigger pull out of the officers hand, that really isn't much. I know SWAT guys aren't teir-1 shooters with insane round counts with at least in Atlanta 160 rounds per SWAT is not statistical significant.
Let's look at the other side. A SWAT breaches a house/apartment after a negotiator fails to bring resolution to a hostage/barricade situation. There is one bad guy with a gun and 3 hostages. The first 2 guys through the door each do a failure to stop drill on the bad guy. 6 rounds fired, bad guys down, hostages saved. 1 person out of the 3 has a raining in their ears and a doctor rules them permanently disabled due to being exposed to gunfire in an enclosed space. Being the litigations country we are the person sues the department. The lawyer doesn't need to make an airtight case just convince 12 people that the cops that came through the door had state of the art electronic hearing protection but the hostages were not protected in anyway. The officers should have been equipped with devices that reduced dB and not cause permeant injury. 12 jurors find the department guilty of negligence and award the plaintiff a payoff. Or the cities counsel sees a lost coming and heads it off by cutting a deal. Either way the departments insurance premiums take a big hit and suddenly everybody ever present for an officer involved shooting wants the suppressor check.
Raise is premiums means less training budget, cops training round count gets cut anyway. Depending on how successful the lawsuits are or god forbid a class action suit the city now has to raise taxes just to keep training standards where they were.
I, as the citizen, now bear the finical brunt of someone deciding 160 bucks over 5 years in amortized costs is better spent on ammo than a suppressor. Oh and I may having hearing damage that doesn't surface for 5 years but because I'm not sue happy I didn't get any of that free city suppressor money.
So if I am ever a victim of a hostage/breach situation I really hope the officers responding have suppressors on their weapons.
I realize my numbers have a selection bias but I don't have hard data on a department cost of ammo, suppressor purchase and maintenance.
Many SBRs here, no supps. It's really about laziness. I was all ready to jump on the AAC SR5/SR7 thing, but they never materialized. I could've had an M4 or SF by now.
You want to amortization the cost of ammo and training for 600-1200 vs the cost of a suppressor? 600-1200 sounds like a lot, at current ammo prices lets put 5.56 at a buck around for even math. So buying a suppressor would reduce round count by 600-1200 trigger pulls in a year. Suppressor don't wear out after a year though. I'm running my AAC 5 years and it cost around 800. So 800/5=160. So now I the Suppressor is taking 160 trigger pull out of the officers hand, that really isn't much. I know SWAT guys aren't teir-1 shooters with insane round counts with at least in Atlanta 160 rounds per SWAT is not statistical significant.
Let's look at the other side. A SWAT breaches a house/apartment after a negotiator fails to bring resolution to a hostage/barricade situation. There is one bad guy with a gun and 3 hostages. The first 2 guys through the door each do a failure to stop drill on the bad guy. 6 rounds fired, bad guys down, hostages saved. 1 person out of the 3 has a raining in their ears and a doctor rules them permanently disabled due to being exposed to gunfire in an enclosed space. Being the litigations country we are the person sues the department. The lawyer doesn't need to make an airtight case just convince 12 people that the cops that came through the door had state of the art electronic hearing protection but the hostages were not protected in anyway. The officers should have been equipped with devices that reduced dB and not cause permeant injury. 12 jurors find the department guilty of negligence and award the plaintiff a payoff. Or the cities counsel sees a lost coming and heads it off by cutting a deal. Either way the departments insurance premiums take a big hit and suddenly everybody ever present for an officer involved shooting wants the suppressor check.
Raise is premiums means less training budget, cops training round count gets cut anyway. Depending on how successful the lawsuits are or god forbid a class action suit the city now has to raise taxes just to keep training standards where they were.
I, as the citizen, now bear the finical brunt of someone deciding 160 bucks over 5 years in amortized costs is better spent on ammo than a suppressor. Oh and I may having hearing damage that doesn't surface for 5 years but because I'm not sue happy I didn't get any of that free city suppressor money.
So if I am ever a victim of a hostage/breach situation I really hope the officers responding have suppressors on their weapons.
I realize my numbers have a selection bias but I don't have hard data on a department cost of ammo, suppressor purchase and maintenance.
You also tripled the price of 5.56mm. For the cost of most rifle Suppressors you can buy another rifle. I'm not saying don't use hearing protection and rely on adrenaline. I'm saying that I've done it unintentionally and I haven't been deaf, dazed, or experienced shell shock so bad I was "out of the fight". I neutralized those paper targets without any of that.
To me the cons aren't worth it and by the way, a 16" AR has a dB reading around 165-170. 140 is supposed to be hearing safe (which for impulse sounds) I wear plugs and electronic hearing protection. I personally don't believe that but, hey. I double muff. Ear plugs will put you at best at 140-145. I won't shoot indoors or rifles without both.
Hearing loss is cumulative and I'm aware of that, so while I am not disabled or damaged (beyond normal use) from my exposure, I would not recommend it. But I wouldn't be deathly afraid that my life was over and I'd never hear again.
The entire point is that people that aren't you don't have ear plugs or hearing protection. Anybody in a room where officers fire a rifle is at risk for damaged hearing.
Hearing is cumulative to a point. Your ear crumb is like a rubber band it will return to its original shape it your street it only so far. That's a bit of over simplification but it works for the example. Very loud noises, like gun fire can cause a lot of pressure and cause trauma. OHSA says the magic number for traumatic loss to occur starts at 120dB. Even if you don't sudden go deaf and have liquid pour out of your ear you can lose audio ranges.
In this day and age there is no reason a law enforcement agency should risk damaging an innocent bystander permanently.
The entire point is that people that aren't you don't have ear plugs or hearing protection. Anybody in a room where officers fire a rifle is at risk for damaged hearing.
Hearing is cumulative to a point. Your ear crumb is like a rubber band it will return to its original shape it your street it only so far. That's a bit of over simplification but it works for the example. Very loud noises, like gun fire can cause a lot of pressure and cause trauma. OHSA says the magic number for traumatic loss to occur starts at 120dB. Even if you don't sudden go deaf and have liquid pour out of your ear you can lose audio ranges.
In this day and age there is no reason a law enforcement agency should risk damaging an innocent bystander permanently.
Do you believe that Suppressors stop hearing loss? I had my ears ringing every time.
Personally if SWAT shot a individual holding me and my family hostage saving my life, I think I could forgive a little bit more ear ringing and muzzle blast than non suppressed.
Just my $.02. I've spent a day with sound meters sound testing silencers and hosts, I would not say any semi auto 5.56 gun was hearing safe that I've shot or heard shot. Just my .02$.
Let's look at the other side. A SWAT breaches a house/apartment after a negotiator fails to bring resolution to a hostage/barricade situation. There is one bad guy with a gun and 3 hostages. The first 2 guys through the door each do a failure to stop drill on the bad guy. 6 rounds fired, bad guys down, hostages saved. 1 person out of the 3 has a raining in their ears and a doctor rules them permanently disabled due to being exposed to gunfire in an enclosed space. Being the litigations country we are the person sues the department. The lawyer doesn't need to make an airtight case just convince 12 people that the cops that came through the door had state of the art electronic hearing protection but the hostages were not protected in anyway. The officers should have been equipped with devices that reduced dB and not cause permeant injury. 12 jurors find the department guilty of negligence and award the plaintiff a payoff. Or the cities counsel sees a lost coming and heads it off by cutting a deal. Either way the departments insurance premiums take a big hit and suddenly everybody ever present for an officer involved shooting wants the suppressor check.
Raise is premiums means less training budget, cops training round count gets cut anyway. Depending on how successful the lawsuits are or god forbid a class action suit the city now has to raise taxes just to keep training standards where they were.
I, as the citizen, now bear the finical brunt of someone deciding 160 bucks over 5 years in amortized costs is better spent on ammo than a suppressor. Oh and I may having hearing damage that doesn't surface for 5 years but because I'm not sue happy I didn't get any of that free city suppressor money.
So if I am ever a victim of a hostage/breach situation I really hope the officers responding have suppressors on their weapons.
I realize my numbers have a selection bias but I don't have hard data on a department cost of ammo, suppressor purchase and maintenance.
Your argument, while eloquent, is more geared toward a possible liability issue after the fact. Would you rather be deaf, or dead? As an officer I'd rather the hostages be deaf than dead. Neither, preferably, but what's more important: an effective end to a tactical situation, or your ears? Also, as noted above, hearing loss is cumulative over time and exposures. Outside of an absurdly loud single exposure, you're not likely to lose your hearing over one incident. I can tell you from personal experience, a single exposure to SBRs and NFDDs won't cause this. I'm sure you also wouldn't mind your police force not be paralyzed by the specter of liability.
The people we save might want to turn around and bite the hand that saved them. The bad guys' next of kin will do that too. But at least they'll be around to do so. Suppressors wouldn't make or break the operation as you laid it out. Would I want a can on the end of my gun? Sure, but I have other priorities in front of me, and the call could come tomorrow.
Edited to add: the extra length of a suppressor can also be a factor. I can also tell you that some scenarios might call for the rescuing team to be on handgun, vs long guns. What then?
135dB is much less likely to cause permeant damage than 165dB.
While it is admirable you would not hold a SWAT accountable for any hearing loss your family might suffer in the horrendous scenario I don't think everyone would be so gracious.
I can only speak for myself, but if I'm ever held at gunpoint (God forbid) by some lunatic, I could give a flying **** if a LEO used an unsuppressed anything, as long as he took the bad guy out.
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135dB is much less likely to cause permeant damage than 165dB.
While it is admirable you would not hold a SWAT accountable for any hearing loss your family might suffer in the horrendous scenario I don't think everyone would be so gracious.
But is that something you think we should really be thinking about before going through the door?
WickedWillis
01-03-14, 11:56
At least some members here are adding useful and educational posts, and not just attacking McCain. This forum is better than that. My experience with short AR's (not legally SBR's) and AR pistols is the reason I would get a suppressor. Sure, if you have proper ear pro, even muffs and plugs it really isn't that bad without one as long as you are outdoors. I did however fire a 7.5 Bushmaster that pounded my ears with an A2 and proper protection YMMV. Everyone has stated the obvious concerning indoor use earlier in the thread.
I can understand your point of view. The question of deaf/dead is moot, as a bystander I don't really have a choice. It's not as if the friendly SWAT attended comes through the isle before an incident and offers hearing protection that I turn down.
As I mentioned above the "earring loss is cumulative" argument on,y works to a point. I do not, any under circumstances, want to be in a house/apartment/garage if multiple people are 10" rifles. A shot or two might not be enough multiple shoots have an increased chance of permeant damage with every pull of the trigger. The younger a person the more likely damage is to occur.
You don't wear body armor because it makes you bulletproof, you wear it to increase the chances of survivability if something bad happens. I think any PD should consider that for the potential victims. While I don't want a department constrained by fear of litigation that is also not a license to disregard safety. The hearing you save maybe your own.
How many times is SWAT hitting a house that occupants should be worried about hearing loss from unsuppressed gunfire?
It's likely that all gun shooters have some damage from chronically partaking in shooting activities. Add on those who work in industrial/manf setting where PPE is required. We are all doomed to some hearing damage. It seems like we've gotten into the area of splitting hairs at this point.
"Your ear crumb is like a rubber band it will return to its original shape it your street it only so far. That's a bit of over simplification but it works for the example."
OK, now we are really getting confusing information posted here.
Hearing loss from shooting firearms is the result of the very fine tiny little "hairs" in your inner ear that act as audio receptors. Once they are "damaged" they are dead, gone, never to return. Kill enough of them and you have permanent loss. Every loss of cilia like this is very bad for your hearing. You never "recover" hearing once it is gone, so protect it all you can.
But, on the other hand, if you actually do want to have poor hearing by the time you are in your late thirties/early forties and spend thousands of dollars on digital hearing aids which require constant fine tuning, by all means, blast away to your hearts content without proper hearing protecting.
A traumatic injury to your ear drum is another thing, caused not by sound but by the concussive force of air pressure on your ear drums.
You do realize both methods of hearing loss you are describing are caused by cell death of the hair due to over stimulation. This isn't the same as a rioter dear drum.
Quiet-Matt
01-03-14, 13:55
Guns are loud.
I wear hearing protection when I shoot.
If we have an intruder in our home or on the street that's threatening the well being of my loved ones... Fu*k my ears!
I have a friend that runs cans, I wasn't impressed enough. He helped me make the decision to save a bunch of money.
I have run drills with my defensive guns sans ear protection, including my 10.3" SBR, in order to have some idea.
I have a A2 flash hider on my SBR, much more tolerable than the battlecomp I had on there before.
for me it comes down to not wanting to spend 1200$ on a 7.62 can and then another 200$ on the stamp to have a huge chunk of metal hanging off the end of the rifle.I rarely shoot anything other than 5.56 and the 5.56 cans that ive heard arent real impressive given the speed the bullet is traveling.Id like to say I could get a smaller 7.62 can for a .300blk setup and shoot 5.56 through it but in reality I have no real use for a suppressed rifle that only shoots rounds that are over 1$ per (I dont reload).
I dont really care about the noise of a sbr and if I was ever held hostage I wouldnt care if they used a .50bmg to end the encounter lol.I started this to see if a rifle can was really something I "had to have" but Judging by some of the responses its a "yeah its cool but nothing special kinda deal"
I appreciate the responses
for me it comes down to not wanting to spend 1200$ on a 7.62 can and then another 200$ on the stamp to have a huge chunk of metal hanging off the end of the rifle.I rarely shoot anything other than 5.56 and the 5.56 cans that ive heard arent real impressive given the speed the bullet is traveling.Id like to say I could get a smaller 7.62 can for a .300blk setup and shoot 5.56 through it but in reality I have no real use for a suppressed rifle that only shoots rounds that are over 1$ per (I dont reload).
I dont really care about the noise of a sbr and if I was ever held hostage I wouldnt care if they used a .50bmg to end the encounter lol.I started this to see if a rifle can was really something I "had to have" but Judging by some of the responses its a "yeah its cool but nothing special kinda deal"
I appreciate the responses
There's no disappointment quite as big as when you spend $1200+, wait 6 months, finally screw on a 5.56 or 7.62 can to your 5.56 gun and shoot it for the first time.
I always always tell people to actually shoot and stand next to someone shooting suppressed 5.56 before spending money on it. .22LR cans are great. 9mm and .45 cans are good too. 300 BLK is great. But supersonic rifle rounds just don't suppress very well because of the sonic boom.
That being said, I have had my 10.5" 5.56 SBR maybe a year and a half longer than my suppressor and with a A2 FH on it, it was perfectly fine. I took it to a class and no one complained. My SBR with SDN-6 is my favorite long gun to shoot, I actually prefer it to my 16" SR-15 even though they're the same length give or take and the SBR is probably heavier.
I've been around quite a few suppressed 5.56 rifles now and the best way I would describe it is simply, "About twice as loud as a .22LR rifle, but a lot less loud than unsuppressed" but you are absolutely correct, a supersonic round puts out a very distinct "CRACK" ... if you think you can enjoy it without hearing protection, I'd say you either are, or soon will be, profoundly deaf.
:)
At this point Id say to the OP, do what works for you. If you have the resources (ETA: typo) buy a suppressor if you want one, but if weight is a major concern because of a disability in one arm. I'd personally add the least amount of weight possible to the muzzle end. If that's a light suppressor great, if that's none, great. Regardless, I'd say test whatever you think you'll want if given the opportunity and form your own impression. I thought a 10.5" SBR would be one way and a suppressed AR would be another, neither was what I'd expected.
There are two schools of thought here that are firmly entrenched, I'd weigh them and find what matters to you. I think most people will not have an attitude about SBRs, just my .02.
I hope this helps,
God bless,
Brandon.
as for suppressed 7.62/.308 ... I'd rather shoot one suppressed one than not suppressed, and if you are on a firing line with others, it sure is nice when we all have suppressed.
The entire point is that people that aren't you don't have ear plugs or hearing protection. Anybody in a room where officers fire a rifle is at risk for damaged hearing.
Hearing is cumulative to a point. Your ear crumb is like a rubber band it will return to its original shape it your street it only so far. That's a bit of over simplification but it works for the example.
No, it really doesn't. It's not about the ear drum, it's about the hair cells in the cochlea. Loud-noise hearing damage isn't going to occur on the basis of one SWAT raid, and most law-abiding citizens don't go through such a raid more than once.
u obviously have never been in a fire fight just gone to schools a lot. if it works it aint astupid
i have 3 .556 cans but dont always use them. house clearing sure but not because of a guy next to me. its so i can stay in the fight. never been to a training class as a student. taught a 50 or so to hi speed guys, since i got back in the business after 9-11. never had 1 complaint. just did a class for 25 d.o.s guys in october. oh forgot they were using h&k-w/10.5 bbls, me too.
guess they didnt notice. probably all deaf too many schools.
L.O.L.
jjw
since this isnt making sense, someone tell me where im off
If osha rates the line for impulse noise to cause damage as 140db, and a 16" AR with a brake is almost 170db's (so an SBR would be pretty far beyond 170?) and each 10db increase is roughly twice as loud, then 150db would be twice as loud as what it takes to cause damage from a single shot, and the 16" AR's with a brake are approximately eight times louder than what it takes to cause damage from a shot, how is it possible for people to be claiming no damage? And the testing I quoted in the link a page prior appeared to be outdoors, indoors with an SBR and brake would seem to guarantee significant hearing loss from one shot.
Are these rough numbers inaccurate?
since this isnt making sense, someone tell me where im off
If osha rates the line for impulse noise to cause damage as 140db, and a 16" AR with a brake is almost 170db's (so an SBR would be pretty far beyond 170?) and each 10db increase is roughly twice as loud, then 150db would be twice as loud as what it takes to cause damage from a single shot, and the 16" AR's with a brake are approximately eight times louder than what it takes to cause damage from a shot, how is it possible for people to be claiming no damage? And the testing I quoted in the link a page prior appeared to be outdoors, indoors with an SBR and brake would seem to guarantee significant hearing loss from one shot.
Are these rough numbers inaccurate?
For starters not all hearing loss is permanent. Not all damage will destroy the hairs in your ears. Secondly there's a practical level to it. You can have hearing loss and still have awesome hearing. Basically, like the rest of the body our ears can afford to lose a little capability and still work fine. I wonder if some people around here feel the same way about alcohol or fast food as they do about hearing loss?:rolleyes: they act like the human ear has to be handled like a delicate flower.
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I had a pws hybrid flash/brake on my 11.5 5.56 sbr . Holy hell ! The noise wasn't the problem the concussion on my head was . Surefire 566 brake is as loud without the concussion . I shoot mine suppressed as well as unsuppressed . My 8.5 300blk is shot unsuppressed with no complaints . Suppressed is nice but if you can't own or afford a can I say do your research on your muzzle device ..
For starters not all hearing loss is permanent. Not all damage will destroy the hairs in your ears. Secondly there's a practical level to it. You can have hearing loss and still have awesome hearing. Basically, like the rest of the body our ears can afford to lose a little capability and still work fine. I wonder if some people around here feel the same way about alcohol or fast food as they do about hearing loss?:rolleyes: they act like the human ear has to be handled like a delicate flower.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
This is correct. Not every incident of exposure to a loud noise results in permanent hearing loss, or if it does, that damage is likely to not be noticeable compared to the overall hearing capability. A lifetime of such exposure likely will cause such damage. It is frequency and dose-dependent (how often and how much).
This is correct. Not every incident of exposure to a loud noise results in permanent hearing loss, or if it does, that damage is likely to not be noticeable compared to the overall hearing capability. A lifetime of such exposure likely will cause such damage. It is frequency and dose-dependent (how often and how much).
So does the ear heal if you give it time between shooting?
Two SBRs, 1AR-1AK, no suppressors. Wouldn't mind one maybe two suppressors, but for my pistols. Loud SBRs is just plain American. Hell the noise is one of the reasons I got 'em. If going to spend $1000ish on a can, I want it to be movie quiet. Spending a Grand on glorified muzzle brake/muffler, is not for me.
The hair cells of the cochlea heal and react to damage by loud noise exposure the same way as every other cell in the body. After the injury, you get an inflammatory response. This will impair function to a varying degree. As the inflammation subsides over 24-72 hours (depending on magnitude of injury), the function improves but some degree of fibrosis (scar tissue) is usually left behind. As elsewhere in the body, the fibrotic tissue isn't as functional as normal tissue. If it happens enough over a long enough period of time, there gets to be enough fibrosis in at least some of the hair cells that their function (hearing) is impaired. The more hair cells that are damaged and the more each one is damaged will determine the degree of hearing loss. There are thousands of hair cells in the ear. Sounds like a lot, but actually a very small number by comparison to other receptors. There are enough that one unsuppressed SWAT raid in our lives isn't going to have an appreciable permanent effect on our hearing, but we don't have a lot to spare. Likewise, given the typical amount of gunfighting one does in defense of one's home, taking time to don earpro or going to a lot of expense to acquire a suppressor is probably unnecessary in terms of preserving our hearing from those middle-of-the-night gunfights.
Disorientation and being "taken out of the fight" by being in the "blast radius" of an unsuppressed SBR is a different story. Some people are apparently more sensitive to that than others.
.
Two SBRs, 1AR-1AK, no suppressors. Wouldn't mind one maybe two suppressors, but for my pistols. Loud SBRs is just plain American. Hell the noise is one of the reasons I got 'em. If going to spend $1000ish on a can, I want it to be movie quiet. Spending a Grand on glorified muzzle brake/muffler, is not for me.
It's a good point. What is the decibel rating of an unsuppressed SBR?
From the link I posted, if 16" is 170, that makes it look like it could be around 180 give or take? (16 times more than the osha impulse limit of 140)
"If going to spend $1000ish on a can, I want it to be movie quiet. Spending a Grand on glorified muzzle brake/muffler, is not for me."
No such thing as "movie quiet" but it sure as heck is not a "glorified muzzle brake" either....
Here is some idea of what a full auto suppressed M4 sounds like. If you have ever been next to a guy running a SBR unsuppressed, you will quickly recognize just a "slight" difference. I was running room clearing drills with a guy running a SBR and when that thing went off about six inches away when we entered one room I found myself thinking, "I wish he had a suppressor on his SBR."
http://youtu.be/iAjCrKYZcps
From the link I posted, if 16" is 170, that makes it look like it could be around 180 give or take? (16 times more than the osha impulse limit of 140)
I wonder what it is when suppressed.
Check out the Silencerco review vids on youtube, looks like you can get in the 130's
So does the ear heal if you give it time between shooting?
No way, never, ever. Once the cilia are gone, they never come back.
No way, never, ever. Once the cilia are gone, they never come back.
Right but your hearing isn't once and done. I've fired .300 win mag, 12 GA SBS without ear pro and I have average to above average hearing. How is it possible my ears were ringing so loud I couldn't hear speech but afterwards a day or so, my hearing returned and loud ringing stopped.
If you say I'm wrong you're just simply ignorant.
Right but your hearing isn't once and done. I've fired .300 win mag, 12 GA SBS without ear pro and I have average to above average hearing. How is it possible my ears were ringing so loud I couldn't hear speech but afterwards a day or so, my hearing returned and loud ringing stopped.
If you say I'm wrong you're just simply ignorant.
ptmccain's opinions on medicine and physiology can be safely ignored.
.
"If going to spend $1000ish on a can, I want it to be movie quiet. Spending a Grand on glorified muzzle brake/muffler, is not for me."
No such thing as "movie quiet" but it sure as heck is not a "glorified muzzle brake" either....
http://youtu.be/iAjCrKYZcpsWhile agreed "movie quiet" is very subjective, a pistol can with the right ammo can get you closer than any supersonic Hi powered rifle, right? Was just stating my preference. Shot in classes and comps where had the chance to shoot both pistol and rifle suppressed, and of the two I'd be more apt to spend $$ on pistol supp(esp 22lr, man those are cherry). Just my opinion.
Cool vid thanks for posting.
SeriousStudent
01-04-14, 15:51
ptmccain, you are finished posting in this thread. You may resume posting in it after you pass your state's medical boards.
While agreed "movie quiet" is very subjective, a pistol can with the right ammo can get you closer than any supersonic Hi powered rifle, right? Was just stating my preference. Shot in classes and comps where had the chance to shoot both pistol and rifle suppressed, and of the two I'd be more apt to spend $$ on pistol supp(esp 22lr, man those are cherry). Just my opinion.
Cool vid thanks for posting.
You are right about how quiet a 22LR supressed semi-auto is. Pretty amazing.
But even with long rifles, you can get some awesome "movie quiet" ... check out a suppressed AR shooting subsonic 300 Blackout. It is amazingly quiet. I've got a buddy who has one....simply stunning. You can shoot without ear pro, very comfortably. About the only thing you hear is the sound of the bolt cycling! He has even tried to find the most quiet buffer system he can so even that will be nearly silent.
Actually, for "movie quiet" check out a suppressed AR shooting subsonic 300 Blackout. It is amazingly quiet. I've got a buddy who has one....simply stunning. You can shoot without ear pro, very comfortably.
Pretty sure SS wasn't kidding.
ptmccain, you are finished posting in this thread. You may resume posting in it after you pass your state's medical boards.
Sent via Tapatalk
SeriousStudent
01-04-14, 16:10
You are correct, I was not kidding.
SeriousStudent
01-04-14, 16:27
Moderator note: We have several medical professionals posting in this thread. I'd encourage people to think about that. These are folks who graduated from a recognized medical school. I'm not talking Springfield Upstairs Medical College, or the "Baby Doc" Duvalier School of Medicine in Port-A-Prince, Haiti. Ponder that when you contradict them on real human body medical things.
In other late-breaking news, the sun does not rotate around the Earth, either.
In other late-breaking news, the sun does not rotate around the Earth, either.
...
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
This thread reminded me why I build a 300BLK sbr. I have since unbuilt it though since I feel a 5.56 sbr with a suppressor will be quiet enough to at least not to set off car alarms. And now that I know my hearing won't be forever ruined from one firefight indoors without ear pro, I feel like that was a good move.
I have a 10.5" and no can, but living in Canada cans are a prohibited device. Trust me if there was a reasonable way to be able to own one I would, guaranteed. Just for the sake of not pounding everyone around me and giving them a headache, it'd be worth it.
It's funny tho, when I was done shooting it today the area of the tarp roof over my position was clear of snow. First shot was almost an avalanche.
Right but your hearing isn't once and done. I've fired .300 win mag, 12 GA SBS without ear pro and I have average to above average hearing. How is it possible my ears were ringing so loud I couldn't hear speech but afterwards a day or so, my hearing returned and loud ringing stopped.
If you say I'm wrong you're just simply ignorant.
When is the last time you had a hearing test?
Deafness acquired by firing an unsuppressed weapon? Definite and permanent but gradual. Deafness acquired by being shot by an unsuppressed weapon? Permanent and immediate.... :laugh: Train like (or as close as reasonably/realisticly possible) you fight I say. To each his own determining what that might be. While range and class manners are fine and well, my personal opinion is to never lose sight of the fact that we are discussing tools of war. Everything else is secondary, and winning the fight is all that matters. I know this isn't news on this board. :)
Serious thanks to the medical professionals who took the time to explain in detail the hearing loss process. Although I have been familiarized with the numbers before, its nice to see them with detail other than being herded through a post-deployment hearing test.
When is the last time you had a hearing test?
It's been a few years. I'm 26 years old. But I took the test after exposure to the 12 GA and .300 Win Mag cited above.
Not since the AR in competition though.
I only run a can on one SBR... and that is because it has an adjustable gas block and it can bet tuned to run with the can.
My other short barrels, including my home D 10.5, are gassed right with fixed FSBs, and so I have no intention of adding a can and getting over gasation.
Citizen_soldier22
01-21-14, 20:23
I don't have a can for my 10.5" AR (yet), but I do have cans for other SBRs and pistols. A 5.56 can is probably the next NFA item on my list.
just trying to get some other opinions on whether or not the extra 500-1k dollars is worth it
You can pay that much if you want to, but entrance to the party starts at about $250, including the stamp.
Oil filter adapter?
You can pay that much if you want to, but entrance to the party starts at about $250, including the stamp.
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davidjinks
01-22-14, 13:38
I run my 10.3" w/o suppressor. I've been up and down on getting one for some time now. I'm just not seeing me getting one for it.
My SBR is run with an A2 FH which replaced a KAC TTT. Shooting side by side with a 10.3" and 16" rifle, I cannot tell a huge difference in noise. Both barrels having of course an A2 FH. I've fired my SBR under cover, indoors and also from inside a vehicle. Though the SBR does have some what more of a "thump" (Lack of a better description) to it, it isn't any worse than a 16" barrel.
Of course that's just personal opinion.
I shot a 7 inch SBR with a BAD muzzle brake/comp thingy on it in full auto, and I swear I was getting a repetitive blast injury from it. I'm a bomb tech, so I'm calibrated for blast, but there is a limit, and I found mine. Maybe I could 'train through it', but **** that.
Oil filter adapter?
I was talking about an SBR, not a suppressor.
Gotcha. Thanks.
I was talking about an SBR, not a suppressor.
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I was talking about an SBR, not a suppressor.
I dont understand where you were going with this I already have the sbr's and if its not an oil filter adaptor im lost
I havent seen any silencer for 50$ lol
In my rush to share my wisdom and knowledge with the board, I completely misunderstood the question.
Having said that, I have two cans I only paid $100 for; a .22 can, and a dedicated 9mm Uzi can. While these suppressors aren't terribly applicable to the discussion, you can get into suppressors for a lot less than $1000. I paid $400 and something for a Gemtech Halo a few years ago.
My BCM 11.5" is not suppressed, but is set up with an AAC 51T blackout flash hider. I was going to get
Their mini can, but thinking of holding off because I find that the blackout does a great job at Eliminating flash and concussion. I don't find it all that loud either. Maybe a little louder than a 16". I had every intention of suppressing right away, but found that the rifle is so manageable and the difference so little, that I am dragging my feet on the can. Have recently thought of not doing the can at all.
I can't say the same about other 11.5" rifles that I've shot. Loud, concussive, and flashy. Other SBR owners that I shoot with are in agreement. I was wrong in my assumption that 10.5"-12.5" SBR's "needed" to be suppressed. As well as I like my setup, knowing this now, I am thinking of trying the BCM Kino 12.5" upper with a 51t to score a little more grip and sight radius.
Eurodriver
05-17-14, 22:44
I didn't know whether to make a new thread or post here, hopefully someone gets some use out of this.
I've always been curious about the difference between an SBR and a suppressed SBR in weight and maneuverability. Unfortunately, for the longest time I only had one real SBR which was a dedicated suppressed setup. My others were 12.5" "do-it-alls" not easily compared.
I did some objective and subjective measuring of my newest 11.5" LW and compared it to my trusty 10.3".
The first rifle is
BCM 11.5" LW upper
10" KMR Rail
Aimpoint T1 in Larue Mount
Troy F/R BUIS
Surefire M300 in an IWC mount
IWC QD sling mount
Midwest Industries Rail Panels
BCM VG KM
Magpul CTR
BCM Gunfighter Grip
Standard H Buffer
VCAS Sling
It is 7lbs 1oz and 27.75" long as pictured.
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/full115rifle_zps8262b730.jpg
The second rifle is
DD 10.3" w/ AAC Muzzle Brake
9" Centurion Rail
M4-2000
Aimpoint T1 in Larue Mount
Troy F/R Buis
Aimpoint T1
Surefire M300 in Gear Sector mount
Larue Index clips
Magpul RVG Foregrip
Magpul CTR
A5 Buffer assembly
BCM Gunfighter grip
VCAS Sling
It is 8lbs 11oz and 32" long as pictured.
(my scale stops working at 7lbs 8oz or something ridiculous )
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/LMTLower_zps391dfe19.jpg
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/suppupper_zps8bae44aa.jpg
I should begin by saying I'm a bit biased. I have shot a ton of rounds through my suppressed AR. At least 10,000. I've had it for years and it runs and runs. However, the 11.5" is really growing on me. I was running drills all day today and I still really preferred the suppressed AR. The weight difference isn't that noticable, which is remarkable considering the 11.5" is probably the lightest quality setup on the market. The suppressed AR seems to have less muzzle climb as well. I know if I threw a battlecomp on the 11.5" this would swing in the opposite direction, but the benefit of sound reduction is always going to lie with the suppressed AR and that is something worth making sacrifices for.
Surprisingly, in their current respective configurations, the suppressed AR seems much more practical (Fully admitting here that there were no vehicle ops or extremely close up engagement scenarios) There is a lot that goes into having a quieter gun. Much easier to communicate, less "distraction" of teammates having muzzle blast in your face and I did not notice any significant downsides. I say significant because there are a few. Namely, they are that you have an 800* furnace on the end of your muzzle. Transitioning to your secondary requires, umm, "luck" in not searing clothing, teammates, or anything else. While we should always be aware of where our muzzles are pointing, you'll quickly find out that doesn't necessarily coincide with where your muzzles are when it's acting like a light saber.
Polymerhead
05-18-14, 14:35
My BCM 11.5" is not suppressed, but is set up with an AAC 51T blackout flash hider. I was going to get
Their mini can, but thinking of holding off because I find that the blackout does a great job at Eliminating flash and concussion. I don't find it all that loud either. Maybe a little louder than a 16". I had every intention of suppressing right away, but found that the rifle is so manageable and the difference so little, that I am dragging my feet on the can. Have recently thought of not doing the can at all.
I can't say the same about other 11.5" rifles that I've shot. Loud, concussive, and flashy. Other SBR owners that I shoot with are in agreement. I was wrong in my assumption that 10.5"-12.5" SBR's "needed" to be suppressed. As well as I like my setup, knowing this now, I am thinking of trying the BCM Kino 12.5" upper with a 51t to score a little more grip and sight radius.
I would agree with this. I have an AAC brake on my 5.56 11.5" SBR, but my can is a 762SD and I almost never shoot it suppressed since I have a 300 BLK upper. I should probably pull the AAC brake and replace it with a Levang Linear from my parts box and see what I think. I shot Levangs years ago but went to 51-tooth devices on everything when I got my can. Of course it's loud with a brake on it, but putting the Levang back should make it bearable and let me work with it as a dedicated shorty and not a 18" (with can) suppressed setup.
I have a 10.5" noveske no suppressor yet. I have a saker on the way for it however. as of now the noise doesn't bother me indoors or outdoors. yea I get the occasional comment but other than that no complaints.
I still can't figure out how the short SBR's (especially with brakes) have little or no noticeable difference when a sbr is very different from a 16" and a brake is very different from a FH
I still can't figure out how the short SBR's (especially with brakes) have little or no noticeable difference when a sbr is very different from a 16" and a brake is very different from a FH
You have to tune you rifle like your car. buffer, buffer spring, BCG, gas port size, ammo, and then brake, or FH
So, I've had some experience firing my 12.5 (now approved) BCM SBR.
I was getting an initial zero at 25 yards (then heading over to the 100 yard range) next to a Glock 22. I didn't notice it being appreciably louder or different than the Glock. (ETA: .40 S&W is also a snappier, louder round than say 9mm).
Just my $.02.
I think Suppressors do have a tactical application. However, I'm not on L.E. or Mil. and I don't need to conceal my location. (ETA: Or worry about not wearing Ear Pro, shooting in a team, etc.)
I would strongly advise anyone to fire a centerfire rifle with a suppressor before spending a ton to get one; it will help you manage expectations.
I've made other points in this thread earlier. But, I thought since I've now experienced that; I'd share.
God bless,
Brandon.
I also think I'll hang onto the A2 Flash hider; however the m4 stock needs to go.
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