Best .22 Upper?

[Nathan_Bell]

Looking for a 22 upper, I want to be able to outfit it into as close a set up as my M-4gery. Rail, VFG, light, etc.

So, here are the criterea I have come up with, if anyone knows of something I am missing, or who makes the best, help appreciated.

1. Reliable
2. Correct Rifling for 22 LR
3. Abiltity to hang junk on it.
4. Easily acquired magazines.
5. Easily maintaned magazines.
6. Spare parts avaiablitly.

[Bulldog1967]

I just received a CV-22 upper that is VERY well built.

Haven't shot it yet but it has had great reviews so far and was economical compared to the KKF/Ceiner upper.

For what YOU want to do however, you may want to consider the KKF one as it looks identical to an M4 upper.

[Submariner]

We have three Kuehl M4 .22LR flattop uppers, two bought new and a third used from EE. They use Ciener conversions (http://www.22lrconversions.com/) with the chamber insert removed so when a round is chambered, it is at the rifling. It also uses Ciener 10- and 30- round mags. The 16" match-grade barrel has an M4 notch but is a heavy barrel under the handguards. They are CNC machined from top quality 4140 steel blanks in a 1-16" twist for optimum performance with 40 grain .22LR projectiles.

Kept clean (.22LR is very dirty) and lubed (SLIP 2000), they will run like sewing machines. Rick Kuehl (http://www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/) is great to work with on building and answering questions on which parts to keep as spares. Both he and Ciener have parts. My experience with JAC was positive when I bought additional 30-round mags.

The two we use primarily for training have KAC RAS's installed for VFG's and lights, when appropriate, and Aimpoint M2's residing on the flat top receiver on LaRue Mounts (just like our M4geries).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/DasBoot56/Geezer3.jpg

Probably 80% of our work-up before our last carbine class with Pat was with these uppers. NOTE: PUSH/PULL is the only way to go with Ciener mags; otherwise, you will impale your support hand if you slap it. They do not, however, work well as monopods (feed issues.) The 30-round mags, when bought in quantities of three or more, are $50 each. (H&K mags are pricey, too.)

Here is a pic of Number Three Son (age 8) who started shooting on Labor Day. I'm glad I kept the 10-rounders that came with the used upper. VFG is a monopod on a portion of a rolled back shooting mat left over from high power days. (Harv, my yellow glasses broke when I met Pat.:cool: )

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/DasBoot56/Danny1.jpg

Note the 25 meter M68 zeroing target in the PDT target (until we can get some EAG targets). He is learning that the red dot goes where you want to hit, here, the center of two concentric circles. Sight picture; Press; Sight picture. Mastering irons comes once he learns to shoot.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/DasBoot56/Danny2.jpg

Last week I bought 4950 rounds of Federal .22LR from local WalMart for $85.00. I can't buy 5000 decent primers for that. The new uppers paid for themselves in 3500 rounds (7,000 total) back when ammo was much cheaper.

[VA_Dinger]

With ammo prices going from bad to worse owning a .22 upper for range work is sounding like a great idea.

[Submariner]

With ammo prices going from bad to worse owning a .22 upper for range work is sounding like a great idea.

It is also easier than reloading (which is also necessary these days; I am seriously considering getting out of 7.62mm: 43 grains of W748 v. 26 for 5.56mm.)

I avoided the AK bug and reasoned that these would suit our purposes better. We still have five children who have to learn to fight with a carbine. Nathan (18) was high shooter at Pat's second Boone County class and Emily (20) outshot me for the first time this year. These helped them to sustain skills developed in earlier classes.

[rob_s]

I've been happy with my DPMS .22 upper so far (and I typically can't stand anything DPMS) but they aren't currently producing them, have put off the 30 round mags several months, and there doesn't appear to be much in the way of support for them.

[SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

this is the route I am going for my son.
It is the custom and cheap route. I found an old mess-up SPR barrel on the EE (ARFCOM) that the barrel threads were done wrong and looked like someone on crack with a drill press chewed up the FSB pin holes. So while throwing it away my 8yr old says "dad I want it" which gave me the 22 idea.

So I sent it to Randall at AR15barrels.com and he cut it down. now the threads are where the gas port used to be (the gas port hole is actually in the threads)

I should have it complete soon just waiting on the rest of the parts it will have a freefloat full length rail and suppressed for my sons ears (dont want them like mine)

will post complete pics soon.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/simplydynamic/22ar.jpg

[AR15barrels]

That barrel looks familiar...

[SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

Ya thanks again for the Awsome work and I also couldnt believe how fast your turn around was!
My kid is driving me nuts with "come on dad when are you gonna finish it!!!!"
I'll post pics when its done.

[Impact]

very nice SD..what kit are yo uusing ? ciener with 30 rds ? or M261 ?

[AR15barrels]

very nice SD..what kit are yo uusing ? ciener with 30 rds ? or M261 ?

The kit pictured above is NOT a Ceiner.
Mags look like the Colt style mags.
Was Colt selling commercial M261's?

[SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

Ya it is a Colt 261 but, but not sure what the mags are, I got it in a trade, I know they came from the Air Force so I would assume the Mags maybe Colt as well.

[C4IGrant]

Please correct where I am wrong, but I thought you didn't have to buy a different barrel with the Ciener conversion??


C4

[rob_s]

Please correct where I am wrong, but I thought you didn't have to buy a different barrel with the Ciener conversion??


C4
You don't have to, but you should.

If you look at almost any commercially available .22LR like the 10/22 you'll find a much slower rifling twist than the typical AR has (slower even than the 1:12 SP1 barrels, more like 1:16). If you shoot a .22 LR in a 1:7 barrel your accuracy is going to suck.

[Submariner]

Please correct where I am wrong, but I thought you didn't have to buy a different barrel with the Ciener conversion??

C4

You don't NEED a new barrel with a Ciener conversion, Grant; however, you WANT a different barrel if you are at all concerned about performance. From the Accurate .22 Rimfire in Petersen's Rifle Shooter (July/August 2002) posted here: http://www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/6234_eprint.pdf


The .22 conversions available for them tend to be
cranky, unreliable, inaccurate and a beast to clean. There are two
reasons for these problems. One, the centerfire bore is supposed to
have a nominal diameter of .224-inch, while the .22 Long Rifle bore
is supposed to have a nominal diameter of .221-inch. Those three
thousandths of an inch do matter.

And second, the slowest twist in an AR barrel is one turn in 12
inches. A proper rimfire bore has a twist of one turn in 16. The too fast
12-inch twist, combined with the loose bore, means casual
accuracy. (You can imagine what the one in nine or one in seven inch
twist rifling some AR barrels have does to a soft rimfire bullet.)

As if all this isn’t enough, to fill the .223 chamber, .22 rimfire
conversions have a chamber-shaped extension. A smoothbore
extension. So the bullet starts out skidding down a smooth bore,
then slams into an overly large and too-fast twist bore. Its a wonder
any of the poor things find the right target at all.

Richard Kuehl, a Missouri gunsmith, has a conversion that eliminates
those problems. First, he uses a true rimfire barrel blank to
make his uppers. Yes, instead of a conversion kit, he makes conversion
uppers. Making a complete upper is more expensive than a
simple conversion, but if what you want is proper performance,
then you have to accept a bit more cost.

Inside the upper is a modified Ciener/Atchisson conversion kit.
Kuehl removes the .223-shaped chamber extension, and modifies
the rails of the conversion to mate with the barrel extension. The
breech end of the rimfire barrel has a correct match chamber, an
integral feed ramp, and guide slots for the action rails.
...
I tested it at 50 yards with a selection of standard and high
velocity production ammo, and Federal and Eley match ammo.

AMMO GROUP (inches)
Eley Tenex .....................................................1.5”
Winchester Wildcat ........................................2.25”
Federal Gold Match ........................................1.125”
Eley Match......................................................0.875”
Winchester Xpert ...........................................1.75”
Remington Target ..........................................1.5”
Remington Hi velocity.....................................1.5”
CCI Green Tag ...............................................1.625”


Wouldn't you agree that "if what you want is proper performance, then you have to accept a bit more cost"?

[Impact]

who sells extra 30rds mags ?

Also, what the shortest length you can go on a 22LR barrel with suppressor ?

thanks

[Submariner]

who sells extra 30rds mags ?

Also, what the shortest length you can go on a 22LR barrel with suppressor ?

thanks

Ciener is the only manufacturer of 30-round .22LR mags as far as I know; both he and Rick Kuehl sell them. Email rick@kuehlprecisionfirearms.com and ask him the shortest barrel he has made.

ETA: There is a 3.25" barrel pictured here: http://www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/KPF%20.22%20upper-bbl%20photo%20gallery.htm

[Impact]

thanks for the link
so the new kuehl barrels do not use modified Ciener kit right ?

[AR15barrels]

Kuehl does use a Ceiner kit.
He does NOT use the original chamber adapter though.
He makes his own sleeve that slides on to a dedicated barrel.
I have done barrels this way as well.
It's a much better design than the chamber adapter.
Last one I did was a 6.5" and that was just a couple weeks ago.

[TigerStripe]

The kit pictured above is NOT a Ceiner.
Mags look like the Colt style mags.
Was Colt selling commercial M261's?

Yep. Those look like 261 mags to me as well.


TS

[SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

been done for a while, but been away, here are the pics of the custom .22
thanks again Randall, my son loves it!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/simplydynamic/22supp.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/simplydynamic/22.jpg

[M4arc]

It's good to see you back Travis!

[Nathan_Bell]

been done for a while, but been away, here are the pics of the custom .22
thanks again Randall, my son loves it!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/simplydynamic/22supp.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/simplydynamic/22.jpg

I like.

Glad you're back Travis, now finish the AR-10 :D

[SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

Thanks,
Ya shes almost done just waiting for a good LPK to drop in....

[DBautista]

SDI.

You have one lucky son, I take my nephew and 2nd cousin to shoot my suppressed Savage 22.LR Bolt Action and Walther P22, and they cannot get enough of it! I dont mind feeding these firearms because it is CHEAP! It also teaches them a bit of respect and responsibilty for firearms and it turns them into Guntards such as ourselves.

I was thinking of the same build, so they can feel like the "grown ups". Can you give me a breakdown of what you put together for your son fo I can be the cool uncle-2nd cousin as well?


TIA

DB

[SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

haha, no prob man,

I had an old 18" SPR barrel that someone gave me. the treads were trashed and the FSB pin holes and gas port were chewed up, so instead of canning it I thought...hell .22's dont need a gas system, so I sent it to Randall (AR15barrels.com) and he cut it back past the gas port and threaded right on top of the port for my KAC M4QD comp,

other parts:

MI 12.0 FF
Stag upper and lower
Cliener .22 kit
Magpul CTR
KAC M4QD suppressor

theres really not much to it...
when I use it I put on the Eotech and my gear for playing around or "working on fundamentals

[edlmann]

Ya it is a Colt 261 but, but not sure what the mags are, I got it in a trade, I know they came from the Air Force so I would assume the Mags maybe Colt as well.

AFAIK, the Colt units are different from any others: M261, Ceiner, Rodman (USAF), etc. The pics show a Rodman unit. IIRC, these mags will not interchange with any others.

[edlmann]

You don't NEED a new barrel with a Ciener conversion, Grant; however, you WANT a different barrel if you are at all concerned about performance. From the Accurate .22 Rimfire in Petersen's Rifle Shooter (July/August 2002) posted here: . . . the slowest twist in an AR barrel is one turn in 12 inches . . .

A minor nit to pick with the author - don't I remember that the earliest ARs (which would be rare Class 3 items now) had 1/14 barrels?

[Resq47]

FWIW - My Ceiner kit has run very well in my 14.5" 1/7 upper, shooting everything from Aguila SSS subsonics to AE & Rem brick ammo. Today I finally was able to use my BDM 30 round mags, and it was more of the same. The only complaint I can make is the feedlips on the BDM's are fairly sharp for loading. No big deal, that's what callouses are for.

I had planned on a dedicated upper (Kuehl or just a dedicted 1/9 or 1/12 tube) but I'd rather buy more ammo and a couple cans of gunscrubber. I have seen zero accuracy problems at typical distances of 50 and under, even with the 1/7 twist. The Ceiner kit is in the same zone as Sordin earpro. EVERY shooter that demos mine wants them, they sell themselves. 12 months ago, I had Sordins, now 5 of us do ;) Two of us have Ceiners (this month).

[edlmann]

oopsie!

[rob_s]

Anyone know if a Ceiner kit will fit in a DPMS .22 upper? I have a rifle with a DPMS upper and I like it, but it appears that DPMS is going to continue to drag their feet on the 30 round mags.

[Submariner]

Anyone know if a Ceiner kit will fit in a DPMS .22 upper? I have a rifle with a DPMS upper and I like it, but it appears that DPMS is going to continue to drag their feet on the 30 round mags.

The Ceiner kit has a smooth-bore insert which fills the standard .223/5.56 chamber. It also acts as the chamber for the .22LR round.

[chp5]

I have a V-22 upper that's been great. I've read about reliablity issues and firing out of battery, but mine's been awesome (knock on wood).

The only downfall is they only have 10 round mags.

[Harv]

Anyone know if the BDM 30 rd mags will work in a CZ V-22 Upper??

[Submariner]

Anyone know if the BDM 30 rd mags will work in a CZ V-22 Upper??

Not yet. They are planned down the road, IIRC.

[davidp14]

BDM has said that hi-cap mags for the vz-22 and the 261 are his next priority. Until then, however, ceiner is your only option for 22 conv. with hi-cap mags, and will continue to be the only option for FA.

I suggest you just get a 22lr barrel form any of the better vendors on the boards in whatever length you want and then you can just build your upper just like you would any other AR upper. Your options are limitless.

Mine: :D
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/1158/picture1870tq3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I originally built this upper because I love 22's, but with the price of 556 now and the pace at which I seem to shoot it up ;) , this upper has proven to be priceless.

[ech01]

Looking for a 22 upper, I want to be able to outfit it into as close a set up as my M-4gery. Rail, VFG, light, etc.

So, here are the criterea I have come up with, if anyone knows of something I am missing, or who makes the best, help appreciated.

1. Reliable
2. Correct Rifling for 22 LR
3. Abiltity to hang junk on it.
4. Easily acquired magazines.
5. Easily maintaned magazines.
6. Spare parts avaiablitly.

I know this is a little late considering we're already on page two.. but incase you're still looking...

1.) http://youtube.com/profile?user=Ech01SpikesTactical <-- 14/23 videos are of our 22 full auto with Black dog Mags

2.) A3 flat top with 16" 1x16 twist chrome moly barrel

3.) We carry the rails that you would need. You could essentially build a complete rifle when you order it. And we will normally give you a pretty good price for a complete rifle to your liking.

4.) We have ordered 500 Black Dog Full Body Mags (with our own logos on them)

5.) Check out all the posts on the Black Dog Mags

6.) Spike's Tactical Machine Shop is a AR15 nirvana =)

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p313/ech01/IMG_0167.jpg
This is Spike's personal FA 22LR AR15...
(thats our new Havoc 37mm...its been finalized in Black.)

Respectively, I am sure that all the kind gentlenmen and ladies whom are dealers on this website also have alot to offer. This is just my opinion that we have a perfect fit for all of your necessities on building your 22. Good luck fellow 22 fanatic!